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Afghanistan, which has been
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On 8 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Rajendra Chola I to Rajendra I. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Dear Venu62,
the map could have been more extensive, good work though ;its that the Kalinga , Bihar and Bengal conquered are included as very thin strips of land, and not justified . Kindly review . Also include Isthmus of Kra, and Bakong in the empire and also mention them in the Overseas Conquests section. Senthilkumaras 08:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
parthi 09:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
have Bengal, " or " hey Rajendra I give you Bengal have it in your map!!"
Senthilkumaras 09:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
1. Hail ! Prosperity! Until the third year (of the reign) of Ko-Parakesarivarman, alias the lord Sri-Rajendra-Soradeva, — Arvar Parantakan Kundavaiyar, (who was) the venerable elder sister of the lord Sri-Rajarajadeva (and) the great queen of Vallavaraiyar Vandyadevar, gave to the images which she had set up herself, — gold which was weighed by the stone (used in) the city and called (after) Adavallan, and jewels which were weighed by the jewel weight called (after) Dakshina-Meru-Vitankan. Those (jewels), which could be weighed (separately), were weighed without the threads, of the frames, the copper nails, the lac and the pinju. Those jewels, the net weight of which could not be ascertained, as they were united with the lac and the pinju (were weighed) together with the lac and the pinju. (The amount of this gold and these jewels) was engraved on stone (as follows) : - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.32.252 ( talk) 05:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed this text because I suspect it has been cut & pasted from elsewhere, and therefore breaches WP policy on copyright. See WP:COPYVIO. Regards -- Greenmaven ( talk) 02:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sejarah-Melayu/conversations/topics/444
https://mindaahad.wordpress.com/2010/09/
http://aku-macjay.blogspot.com/2010/12/melayu-bangsa-yang-hilang.html
http://pentaskajibuku.blogspot.com/2011/12/kertas-kerja-zulkarnain-moyang-raja.html
http://zakisamsudin.blogspot.com/2009/02/lessons-from-puyi.html
18:53, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there really any point in showing the ancient inscriptions? If there is then the section needs to be reformatted per
WP:MOSQUOTE but I think we can get away with something like Ancient inscriptions relating to Rajendra Chola have been identified at temples A, B and C.
and cite
this. -
Sitush (
talk) 14:14, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
K. A. N. Sastri's History of South India dates from 1935. As such, we would usually bin it as unreliable. I am aware that he has still got supporters but also that he has been criticised for a pro-Brahminic slant on history. Can we not find more recent sources to replace this one? - Sitush ( talk) 14:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
I saw this page on Rajendra 1 and the page on Rajaraja 1 have some disputable information about their conquest of Sri Lanka. Both pages indicate that they conquered entire island which is disputable. Rajendra 1 conquered most of the island but there was a small part of resistance which Sinhalese later used to organize and regain the island back.
See this: [3] I will add required primarily literature in a bit. However, I have not made any changed to the page as I prefer discussing with other authors before making changes. Lipwe ( talk) 23:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Lipwe ( talk) 20:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The Chola empire never had full control of the island at any point in history, and this is already discussed in a large amount of literature published on the matter, including primary literature cited on the page. Spencer, G. W. The Politics of Plunder: The Cholas in Eleventh-Century Ceylon. The Journal of Asian Studies 1976, 35 (3), 405–419. https://doi.org/10.2307/2053272.
According to Spencer, “Under Rajendra Chola I, perhaps the most aggressive king of his line, Chola raids were launched southward from Rajarattha into Rohana. By his fifth year, Rajendra claimed to have completely conquered Ceylon, a claim that has led some historians to assert that Rajendra "completed" the conquest Rajaraja had begun. But the Cholas never really consolidated their control over southern Ceylon, which in any case lacked large and prosperous settlements to tempt long-term Chola occupation. Thus, under Rajendra, Chola predatory expansion in Ceylon began to reach a point of diminishing returns”
Moreover, Spencer talks about the continuous line of Sinhalese kings during the Chola period in the Rohana kingdom.
“Ironically, the Chola settlements in the north in turn became targets of attack and plunder, partly because the Sinhalese "enemy"-remnants of the royal court and some chiefs who supported it were now more dispersed and capable of organizing guerrilla resistance. Since members of the royal house of Ceylon were natural rallying-points for counterattacks, the Cholas were anxious to seize them. The Culavamsa admits that Rajendra's forces captured King Mahinda and transported him to India, where he eventually died in exile.47 But Prince Kassapa, son of Mahinda, hid in Rohana, where Chola forces vainly searched for him. Kassapa assumed the title of Vikkamabahu I and ruled" in Rohana for several years (c. I029-Io4I)48 while attempting to organize a campaign of liberation and unification””
Thus it is clear that Cholar only had an influence on the Rohana kingdom of the south of Sri Lanka, not direct control. So I made correction to the relavant map. The corrected map only included the Principality of Ruhuna (Ruhunu Rata) as the area of influence, while the entire Principality of Malaya was put under Chola control, even though this might not be the case.
Adding this topic here, as a user named 'Muruganadimai' is engaging in edit war and calling my edits as vandalism on this article as well as others. My edits were not vandalism, but only to correct info and I've decided to stop editing till we have a solution, here after discussion and debate, hopefully without disturbing any admins as any more edits by me may also be called as edit warring.
Let's try to build a consensus here and debate both our view points & edits. I'm open to more people joining this discussion to reach a solution.
As it is known very well, Hinduism is a major religion which is one of the oldest surviving religion of the world. Those who follow Hinduism are called Hindus. Shaivism, like Shaktism, Vaishnavism and various other traditions or forms of worship is one of the sects of Hinduism. Shaivism is not a religion, but a sect. Those who follow Shaivism are known as Shaivaites only to be differentiated from Shakta & Vaishnav. But Shaivaites can't be differentiated from Hinduism or Hindus as they are a part of Hinduism and come under the Hindu umbrella.
My humble request is that if Muruganadimai wants to add the Shaivaite tag to the King mentioned in this article, I welcome that. But that tag should not be added in place of Religion, but under another tagline named Sect. As the king's religion is Hinduism, but his sect was Shaivism. I'm not even questioning the sources mentioned by Muruganadimai since he's using these sources to say that the King was a Shaivaite, there is no doubt or disagreement there. But I strongly oppose using Shaivism instead of Hinduism as his religion. We can always add more options in infobox which can describe the sect of the King, apart from describing his religion which is Hinduism.
Muruganadimai and anyone else is free & welcome to give their point of view regarding this issue. I'm sorry If I've offended Muruganadimai or any other Wiki user who is from Tamil Nadu or Hindu or admirer of Chola kings and their dynasty. Any edits made by me were in good faith and to the best of my knowledge, I'm neither from Tamil Nadu, Southern state of India where these kings ruled primarily. Nor am I a Hindu, so ignore or inform me about my mistakes, if any.
Thanks! FofS&E ( talk) 15:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I have also informed Muruganadimai about this post on their talk page since I don't know how to tag a user. I'll wait for 48hrs before correcting the article again, if they fail to respond. FofS&E ( talk) 16:10, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Shaivism was never a religion, always a sect. Calling Shaivism a religion is your personal opinion, not a fact. It is not a religion today, and was not a religion in the past either. Lord Shiva is a Hindu God, not a God of single sect. A Sect may worship one God exclusively, but that doesn't exclude that God from the religion or for those who don't follow any sect/branch. Yes, they worshipped Shiva very much, and more than any other Gods, but did they not worship Lord Vishnu? Was worshipping of other Hindu gods outlawed or forbidden by king's order? No. And whether Cholas would know about Hinduism or not is not the matter which we are discussing here. These are only your speculation. Don't confuse & mix history with your personal opinions. Shaivism was & still is a sect, never a religion. Period.
FofS&E ( talk) 17:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Shaivism was and is still a sect, never a religion. Calling Shaivism as religion is your point of view. The Chola kings as well as their family worshipped & made Lord Vishnu temples. If they were just tolerant, then why worship or make temples of Lord Vishnu? Yes, Just worshipping of Vishnu doesn't make them Vaishnavites but worshipping both Lord Vishnu & Shiva doesn't mean that these worshippers do not come under the Hindu fold. FofS&E ( talk) 17:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
If you can prove that Shaivism was a religion, not a sect during the time of those kings, then I'm ready to reconsider my position and won't make any changes to any Chola king's article. But please provide valid sources that mention Shaivism was a religion and not a tradition or sect or mode of worship or school of thought of Hinduism. Also, when did Shaivism & Vaishnavism unified. Lastly, don't provide me with any proof or source which says that Cholas were Shaivaite, there is no dispute or conflict regarding this. They were primarily Shaivaite. But to believe Shaivism was a religion that merged with Vaishnavism, will need your points. Thanks! Peace~ FofS&E ( talk) 19:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
FofS&E is the one to engage in edit war and he edits contents that are already cited and engaging in Vandalismwon't help you. >>> Extorc. talk 21:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Name calling other users is not a good behaviour. You were calling me a vandal who is vandalizing. Now, you are labelling another user as dishonest. I suggest you stick to the topic of discussion instead of name calling and personal attacks. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions asked on 6th October 19:00 UTC FofS&E ( talk) 03:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Regarding status quo, the onus is on you to prove that Shaivism was an independent religion during the time of Chola kings which merged with Vaishnavism (another religion according to you) to counter the influence of foreign religions. As of today, there is no doubt about Shaivism being a sect of Hinduism. There is no such mention that Shaivism became a part of Hinduism on this year and for these reasons. If you want status quo, then article should not be using Shaivism as religion, but as a sect since Shaivism is a sect of Hindu religion. FofS&E ( talk) 03:33, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Sect much appreciated than religion
If you are not agree that sect not important, you have to change in above articles and I hope you have to create such Wiki guideline. -- Antan O 12:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
@Antano If Sect is much appreciated than religion, then it should say sect instead of religion. I have no issue if Shaivism is used to describe the king, but then either the option should be renamed from Religion to Sect, or use Hinduism if religion is not changed to sect.
And this is what I found about another Chola king/emperor:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulottunga_I
But if there is such a wiki guideline, then please enlighten me.
Thanks for your view!
FofS&E ( talk) 15:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This is not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST. What is the guidance to use "Infobox royalty". If Infobox royalty allow to use only religion than sect, why it differ to other article? Why many of you are keen to keep Hinduism here. If you cannot response, I have to restore the page and I would seek advice from sysop. -- Antan O 15:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — mw ( talk) ( contribs) 19:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Rajendra Chola I → Rajendra I – WP:COMMONNAME and matches format of other similar articles. SKAG123 ( talk) 21:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Please provide citations that state Rajendra the great is a nickname for this monarch. The nickname is currently unsourced SKAG123 ( talk) 03:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
India,
Pakistan, and
Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
On 8 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Rajendra Chola I to Rajendra I. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Dear Venu62,
the map could have been more extensive, good work though ;its that the Kalinga , Bihar and Bengal conquered are included as very thin strips of land, and not justified . Kindly review . Also include Isthmus of Kra, and Bakong in the empire and also mention them in the Overseas Conquests section. Senthilkumaras 08:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
parthi 09:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
have Bengal, " or " hey Rajendra I give you Bengal have it in your map!!"
Senthilkumaras 09:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
1. Hail ! Prosperity! Until the third year (of the reign) of Ko-Parakesarivarman, alias the lord Sri-Rajendra-Soradeva, — Arvar Parantakan Kundavaiyar, (who was) the venerable elder sister of the lord Sri-Rajarajadeva (and) the great queen of Vallavaraiyar Vandyadevar, gave to the images which she had set up herself, — gold which was weighed by the stone (used in) the city and called (after) Adavallan, and jewels which were weighed by the jewel weight called (after) Dakshina-Meru-Vitankan. Those (jewels), which could be weighed (separately), were weighed without the threads, of the frames, the copper nails, the lac and the pinju. Those jewels, the net weight of which could not be ascertained, as they were united with the lac and the pinju (were weighed) together with the lac and the pinju. (The amount of this gold and these jewels) was engraved on stone (as follows) : - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.32.252 ( talk) 05:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed this text because I suspect it has been cut & pasted from elsewhere, and therefore breaches WP policy on copyright. See WP:COPYVIO. Regards -- Greenmaven ( talk) 02:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sejarah-Melayu/conversations/topics/444
https://mindaahad.wordpress.com/2010/09/
http://aku-macjay.blogspot.com/2010/12/melayu-bangsa-yang-hilang.html
http://pentaskajibuku.blogspot.com/2011/12/kertas-kerja-zulkarnain-moyang-raja.html
http://zakisamsudin.blogspot.com/2009/02/lessons-from-puyi.html
18:53, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there really any point in showing the ancient inscriptions? If there is then the section needs to be reformatted per
WP:MOSQUOTE but I think we can get away with something like Ancient inscriptions relating to Rajendra Chola have been identified at temples A, B and C.
and cite
this. -
Sitush (
talk) 14:14, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
K. A. N. Sastri's History of South India dates from 1935. As such, we would usually bin it as unreliable. I am aware that he has still got supporters but also that he has been criticised for a pro-Brahminic slant on history. Can we not find more recent sources to replace this one? - Sitush ( talk) 14:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
I saw this page on Rajendra 1 and the page on Rajaraja 1 have some disputable information about their conquest of Sri Lanka. Both pages indicate that they conquered entire island which is disputable. Rajendra 1 conquered most of the island but there was a small part of resistance which Sinhalese later used to organize and regain the island back.
See this: [3] I will add required primarily literature in a bit. However, I have not made any changed to the page as I prefer discussing with other authors before making changes. Lipwe ( talk) 23:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Lipwe ( talk) 20:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The Chola empire never had full control of the island at any point in history, and this is already discussed in a large amount of literature published on the matter, including primary literature cited on the page. Spencer, G. W. The Politics of Plunder: The Cholas in Eleventh-Century Ceylon. The Journal of Asian Studies 1976, 35 (3), 405–419. https://doi.org/10.2307/2053272.
According to Spencer, “Under Rajendra Chola I, perhaps the most aggressive king of his line, Chola raids were launched southward from Rajarattha into Rohana. By his fifth year, Rajendra claimed to have completely conquered Ceylon, a claim that has led some historians to assert that Rajendra "completed" the conquest Rajaraja had begun. But the Cholas never really consolidated their control over southern Ceylon, which in any case lacked large and prosperous settlements to tempt long-term Chola occupation. Thus, under Rajendra, Chola predatory expansion in Ceylon began to reach a point of diminishing returns”
Moreover, Spencer talks about the continuous line of Sinhalese kings during the Chola period in the Rohana kingdom.
“Ironically, the Chola settlements in the north in turn became targets of attack and plunder, partly because the Sinhalese "enemy"-remnants of the royal court and some chiefs who supported it were now more dispersed and capable of organizing guerrilla resistance. Since members of the royal house of Ceylon were natural rallying-points for counterattacks, the Cholas were anxious to seize them. The Culavamsa admits that Rajendra's forces captured King Mahinda and transported him to India, where he eventually died in exile.47 But Prince Kassapa, son of Mahinda, hid in Rohana, where Chola forces vainly searched for him. Kassapa assumed the title of Vikkamabahu I and ruled" in Rohana for several years (c. I029-Io4I)48 while attempting to organize a campaign of liberation and unification””
Thus it is clear that Cholar only had an influence on the Rohana kingdom of the south of Sri Lanka, not direct control. So I made correction to the relavant map. The corrected map only included the Principality of Ruhuna (Ruhunu Rata) as the area of influence, while the entire Principality of Malaya was put under Chola control, even though this might not be the case.
Adding this topic here, as a user named 'Muruganadimai' is engaging in edit war and calling my edits as vandalism on this article as well as others. My edits were not vandalism, but only to correct info and I've decided to stop editing till we have a solution, here after discussion and debate, hopefully without disturbing any admins as any more edits by me may also be called as edit warring.
Let's try to build a consensus here and debate both our view points & edits. I'm open to more people joining this discussion to reach a solution.
As it is known very well, Hinduism is a major religion which is one of the oldest surviving religion of the world. Those who follow Hinduism are called Hindus. Shaivism, like Shaktism, Vaishnavism and various other traditions or forms of worship is one of the sects of Hinduism. Shaivism is not a religion, but a sect. Those who follow Shaivism are known as Shaivaites only to be differentiated from Shakta & Vaishnav. But Shaivaites can't be differentiated from Hinduism or Hindus as they are a part of Hinduism and come under the Hindu umbrella.
My humble request is that if Muruganadimai wants to add the Shaivaite tag to the King mentioned in this article, I welcome that. But that tag should not be added in place of Religion, but under another tagline named Sect. As the king's religion is Hinduism, but his sect was Shaivism. I'm not even questioning the sources mentioned by Muruganadimai since he's using these sources to say that the King was a Shaivaite, there is no doubt or disagreement there. But I strongly oppose using Shaivism instead of Hinduism as his religion. We can always add more options in infobox which can describe the sect of the King, apart from describing his religion which is Hinduism.
Muruganadimai and anyone else is free & welcome to give their point of view regarding this issue. I'm sorry If I've offended Muruganadimai or any other Wiki user who is from Tamil Nadu or Hindu or admirer of Chola kings and their dynasty. Any edits made by me were in good faith and to the best of my knowledge, I'm neither from Tamil Nadu, Southern state of India where these kings ruled primarily. Nor am I a Hindu, so ignore or inform me about my mistakes, if any.
Thanks! FofS&E ( talk) 15:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I have also informed Muruganadimai about this post on their talk page since I don't know how to tag a user. I'll wait for 48hrs before correcting the article again, if they fail to respond. FofS&E ( talk) 16:10, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Shaivism was never a religion, always a sect. Calling Shaivism a religion is your personal opinion, not a fact. It is not a religion today, and was not a religion in the past either. Lord Shiva is a Hindu God, not a God of single sect. A Sect may worship one God exclusively, but that doesn't exclude that God from the religion or for those who don't follow any sect/branch. Yes, they worshipped Shiva very much, and more than any other Gods, but did they not worship Lord Vishnu? Was worshipping of other Hindu gods outlawed or forbidden by king's order? No. And whether Cholas would know about Hinduism or not is not the matter which we are discussing here. These are only your speculation. Don't confuse & mix history with your personal opinions. Shaivism was & still is a sect, never a religion. Period.
FofS&E ( talk) 17:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Shaivism was and is still a sect, never a religion. Calling Shaivism as religion is your point of view. The Chola kings as well as their family worshipped & made Lord Vishnu temples. If they were just tolerant, then why worship or make temples of Lord Vishnu? Yes, Just worshipping of Vishnu doesn't make them Vaishnavites but worshipping both Lord Vishnu & Shiva doesn't mean that these worshippers do not come under the Hindu fold. FofS&E ( talk) 17:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
If you can prove that Shaivism was a religion, not a sect during the time of those kings, then I'm ready to reconsider my position and won't make any changes to any Chola king's article. But please provide valid sources that mention Shaivism was a religion and not a tradition or sect or mode of worship or school of thought of Hinduism. Also, when did Shaivism & Vaishnavism unified. Lastly, don't provide me with any proof or source which says that Cholas were Shaivaite, there is no dispute or conflict regarding this. They were primarily Shaivaite. But to believe Shaivism was a religion that merged with Vaishnavism, will need your points. Thanks! Peace~ FofS&E ( talk) 19:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
FofS&E is the one to engage in edit war and he edits contents that are already cited and engaging in Vandalismwon't help you. >>> Extorc. talk 21:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Name calling other users is not a good behaviour. You were calling me a vandal who is vandalizing. Now, you are labelling another user as dishonest. I suggest you stick to the topic of discussion instead of name calling and personal attacks. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions asked on 6th October 19:00 UTC FofS&E ( talk) 03:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Regarding status quo, the onus is on you to prove that Shaivism was an independent religion during the time of Chola kings which merged with Vaishnavism (another religion according to you) to counter the influence of foreign religions. As of today, there is no doubt about Shaivism being a sect of Hinduism. There is no such mention that Shaivism became a part of Hinduism on this year and for these reasons. If you want status quo, then article should not be using Shaivism as religion, but as a sect since Shaivism is a sect of Hindu religion. FofS&E ( talk) 03:33, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Sect much appreciated than religion
If you are not agree that sect not important, you have to change in above articles and I hope you have to create such Wiki guideline. -- Antan O 12:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
@Antano If Sect is much appreciated than religion, then it should say sect instead of religion. I have no issue if Shaivism is used to describe the king, but then either the option should be renamed from Religion to Sect, or use Hinduism if religion is not changed to sect.
And this is what I found about another Chola king/emperor:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulottunga_I
But if there is such a wiki guideline, then please enlighten me.
Thanks for your view!
FofS&E ( talk) 15:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This is not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST. What is the guidance to use "Infobox royalty". If Infobox royalty allow to use only religion than sect, why it differ to other article? Why many of you are keen to keep Hinduism here. If you cannot response, I have to restore the page and I would seek advice from sysop. -- Antan O 15:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — mw ( talk) ( contribs) 19:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Rajendra Chola I → Rajendra I – WP:COMMONNAME and matches format of other similar articles. SKAG123 ( talk) 21:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Please provide citations that state Rajendra the great is a nickname for this monarch. The nickname is currently unsourced SKAG123 ( talk) 03:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)