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I really think the author of this article needs to specify Breggin's formal training. Supposedly he went to Harvard for undergraduate school, then to Case Western Reserve Medical school. Normally, after medical school a prospective physician then does an internship, either general or in a specific field, then proceeds to the residency training which determines his or her specialty. At the completion of the residency training, he or she may then take "The Boards" in that specialty, and becomes a Board Certified Physician in whatever specialty he or she trained in. It appears that Breggin went from medical school to some type of research fellowship, then to some vague appointment to NIH, then went to a faculty appointment at Johns Hopkins. These are all top-notch institutions, but what did he research at first? And what was his position at NIH? And in what department was he a faculty member of at Hopkins? Did he do any specialty at all? Is he Board Certified in any field? These are not trivial questions, as they speak to his formal training in the field in which he has made his name, and of which he is so critical. It is not enough to go to a reputable institution, what one does while at that particular institution is equally, if not more, important. From the article (which, by the way, I found very interesting and balanced), it does appear that, at least as far as psychiatry may be concerned, he is somewhat of an autodidact. The problem with autodidacts, of course, is that their erudition is often like a Texas river: a mile wide and an inch deep. Cd195 ( talk) 04:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Being licensed by the state to practice law doesn’t make one a competent lawyer. Now that a huge percentage of American workers are in occupations requiring licenses, that has become, upside facto, putative evidence of expertise. For reasons of economics and prestige, professions demand to be licensed. Despite the alleged prohibition on it, Wikipedia bios are, in the main, models of appeal to authority. Nicmart ( talk) 04:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Blessed autocorrect. Nicmart ( talk) 04:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed that PeterBreggin has made a number of edits some of which imply a personal knowledge of Peter Breggin. Is PeterBreggin Peter Breggin?-- scuro ( talk) 14:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
This is Peter Breggin and I have been making changes on my biography. This week is actually the first time I've looked at it, ever. Really.
I've tried to learn the ropes, to clarify my identity some, to fix up the citations, but not to make substantial additions or changes. I am disappointed and rather surprised that so much attack is permitted on the page. From the page, it would hardly seem that I'd accompished all that much.
More specifically, I am surprised that the quotes from the judges are allowed but apparently I am not allowed to explain anything in rebuttal. For example, what the issues where in the cases, which is important, since they were cutting edge questions in which time as confirmed most of my views, for example, that electroshock causes permanent memory loss. Or the fact that one of the judges went to work immediately after the trial for the defendant's firm.
I am not sure what "referenced" criticism have been removed. There was a reference to a Forbes article which was very hostile, drug-company inspired, and old. The Center for the Study of Psychiatry is patently not confined to me as suggested. I don't even run it anymore, the director lives in NYC, and hundreds of professionals are involved.
Meanwhile, I am typing onto someone else's box--and haven't yet figured out how to start my own.
Do you want to tell me who you are? PB
Marie588 ( talk) 13:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Re: "... I've never started anyone on psychiatric drugs."
That may be true but is somewhat misleading. It does not reflect that Dr. Breggin does prescribe psychiatric drugs to clients who transfer from other psychiatrists and who are already taking such prescriptions.
It is indisputably problematic that in Scuro claims this statement (bold text denotes changes):
becomes "unreferenced" when edited to:
yet neither statement is referenced! The only difference is that the former is a blatant straw-man and non-NPOV smear against Breggin (like so many other statements of wiki-editor opinion in this entry). So Scuro clearly appears to define 'unreferenced' as: "unreferenced and not derogatory of Breggin." Or perhaps Scuro can explain to us how the former became unreferenced when it became not derogatory of Breggin.
Furthermore, Breggin is not a scientist and has never claimed to be. He is a private-practice psychiatrist, and thus physician. The first statement Scario favors is a classic staw-man in fabricating a false position for Breggin not reflecting a position he's taken and then scoring a fallacious hit by making it seem as if he's defined a special status for himself of being a scientists who need not conduct studies. It's horrible that wikipedia provides a platform for such non-NPOV abuse of persons. 96.241.126.252 ( talk) 17:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
About deleting my edit, Scuro says:
But it references wikipedia and logical fallacies are hardly 'personal judgments'. But let's talk about it. The statement I noted as invoking argumentum ad populum (which should instead be the fallacy of appeal to authority) is this derogatory statement about Breggin made by Stephen Barrett:
Can someone explain (1) how that statement is not an appeal to authority, and (2) why, if it is, wiki-readers should not want to identify instances of fallacies? 96.241.126.252 ( talk) 19:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm coming at it on a much simpler level. Take this passage written by user 96.241.126.252, "But it references wikipedia and logical fallacies are hardly 'personal judgments'. But let's talk about it. The statement I noted as invoking argumentum ad populum (which should instead be the fallacy of appeal to authority) is this derogatory statement about Breggin made by Stephen Barrett". I can reference many things to Wikipedia, that doesn't mean I can use them in a personal argument, and post that on Wikipedia. If someone of note has made these observations, by all means reference them and post the citation. This is an encyclopedia and the persuasive essay format should be avoided. In an essay we try to persuade readers of our viewpoint and we do that by characterization of the subject through observed "proofs". Do you understand my objection now? It would be nice if you identified yourself, the claw marks look familiar. Also proof reading your posts will stop that nasty habit of misspelling other contributors names. Thanks ahead of time. -- scuro ( talk) 22:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Barrett has written and edited books and articles about health practices about which he has no relevant credentials, if credentials be important. The criticism leveled at psychiatry for generations is that it is a pseudoscience, and therefore to debunk it requires no education in it. That is precisely how Barrett has behaved toward a myriad of activities he considers to be pseudoscience. Now maybe someone can invoke argumentum ad populum, and I will remind you that the history of psychiatry is festooned with such nonsense as epileptics are criminals, masturbation causes insanity, and gastric ulcers are caused by emotional stress. Nicmart ( talk) 01:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
The size of the Bibliography section is ballooning, it needs paring down to what illustrates Breggin's career and views. Wikipedia is not a place to store the CV or list of publications of someone.... -- Crusio ( talk) 19:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should be carefully checked. Just today, I found two claims that were really overstated. The first was that Breggin "was selected by the National Institute of Health (NIH) to be the expert on brain injury caused by ECT at the 1985 NIH Consensus Development Conference on ECT" (emphasis added). Turns out (see ref in article) that he was just one of many speakers at a session organized by the consensus panel and that he was not even a member of this panel (and the latter apparently mostly ignored Breggin in its conclusions). The second was that "Breggin is a life member of the American Psychiatric Association". Sounds really impressive, until one looks up the APA website and finds that "Any member who has reached the age of 65 and has belonged to the APA for a total of 25 years, may choose to begin a dues-reduction schedule, culminating in Life Member status and exemption from APA dues."
An anonymous IP has been making numerous edits today. Many edits just added superfluous info that only seems to be geared to make things look impressive (for instance, adding that his latest book is published by "the Springer Publishing Company", something that is already said in the way-too-long bibliography). Another addition is that "EHSS is received and archived at the National Library of Medicine (pubmed: 101231408[NlmId])". If EHSS would not be indexed by NLM, that would be more remarkable. As it is, this is not interesting and, in any case, whether indexed or not this info does not belong here but in the article on the journal.
A further issue is the addition of a long citation to Hirsch on h-index values. The original edit cited Hirsch quite selectively (see history if you want to see what I mean). Again, this info does not belong here and is already presented in the article on the h-index. Additionally, as it stands now, I think this statement is rather denigrating to Breggin: it basically says that after a long career, he has reached a point where he could be considered for tenure as a mere associate professor. What a lifetime total of 382 citations in the scientific literature means is that his works have been largely ignored by the scientific community. That is an NPOV statement, it does not imply anything about whether his views are right or wrong, it just says something about how they were received by his peers. Another editor, Nmg20, changed this text to "These relatively low numbers indicate that his work is not considered useful and/or influential by the scientific community." This is not correct either, it is a conclusion that this editor draws from the data (and hence original research). Low citation counts means being ignored, that is not an OR conclusion and not a POV. The anonymous IP has reverted me when I put the old text back and I am not in the mood to start an edit war over this. I just would like to note that the way things are currently formulated probably constitutes a violation of WP:BLP. -- Crusio ( talk) 23:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
You may want to use of these tags on the article.
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-- scuro ( talk) 03:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The repeated insertion by Crusio of his personal POV about the meaning of the h-index and Crusio's repeated deletion of the objective citation to its meaning by its originator (Hirsh) is prima facie vandalism. Furthermore, the point being made is that an h-index has to be interpreted in context. So saying Breggin has a low h-index relative to academics and scientists is comparing an individual to success criteria in other professions. Applying NPOV criteria requires comparing an individual's success to his career peers. And as we all know, Breggin is a private-practice psychiatrist.
Given that, a good example of a peer to Breggin is Stephan Barrett as both are psychiatrists, and Barrett happens to be a critic of Breggin's whose expertise Crusio is on record admiring in contrast to Breggin. However, in a review at isiknowledge.com it seems that Barrett's h-index is all of 1, one tenth of Breggin's "lowly" h-index! Now, there are a number of "Barret, S" authors who are not this Barrett. But I only pull up 4 pages of them from which this Barrett is easily disambiguated. And it seems that he has all of 1 genuine peer-reviewed paper at isi (apart from those debunking his paper), unlike 37 papers for Breggin listed at isi. So doing a citation report on Barrett's only isi-listed paper suffices to cover the whole of Barrett's citation report. If there is disagreement, please make this clear. Let's actually try to establish an accurate NPOV peer context for interpreting Breggin's h-index.
This demonstrates that if in an objective NPOV context Breggin's h-index is compared to his career peers, not to those on other career paths, it stands out as uniquely high. What would be particularly relevant would be to find an average h-index for private-practice psychiatrists. I'd bet it's around 1. 136.160.224.142 ( talk) 16:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
There was quite a lof o sudden "cleaning up" of critical comments, so I reverted. I wonder if some reason will be stated for the deletion. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 15:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
FYI, regarding the use of Quackwatch as a source.... An amendment to a previous ArbCom finding has been made. In the process, important observations were made about the use of Quackwatch as a source. -- Fyslee ( talk) 15:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
from WP:V:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
So the fact that we should not use primary source legal documents does not automatically preclude that we might use primary source material published by the subject of the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:49, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Please be careful to follow MOS. No spaces between multiple refs; no spacing between punctuation and ref; no punctuation after a ref, etc.. I just did a major cleanup. Let's keep it that way. Thanks. -- Fyslee ( talk) 02:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I have filed a report at AN/I. I suggest that Mihai cartoaje and other editors take a look. -- Fyslee ( talk) 06:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I find it a little hard to believe that Breggin had significant role in FDA's black box labeling of SSRIs. The way the that section is written it leads the reader to think that his role must have been so. No third party sources are cited saying that. Xasodfuih ( talk) 15:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I was going to write what Peter Jensen the psychiatrist said about Breggin on PBS, as it's fairly substantive [6], but of course he's a nobody on the wiki. Xasodfuih ( talk) 19:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
If we're going to have an NPOV discussion of Breggin's previous views on this topic, and if there are sufficient sources to do it, that would be fine. But it's ridiculous to include "criticism" of something which the body of the article never describes. Even the sources cited never criticize the view per se, other than by way of an insinuation that it's obviously contrary to common sense. But WP:NOR forbids putting words in their mouths. Using the child sexuality issue as way to attack Breggin's unrelated views on psychiatric medication is not journalism. This material isn't up to WP:BLP standards. Alessandra Napolitano ( talk) 02:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Time has noted that other mental health professionals worry that "Breggin reinforces the myth that mental illness is not real, that you wouldn't be ill if you'd pull yourself up by the bootstraps...his views stop people from getting treatment. They could cost a life."[5] However, despite this concern, an emphasis on a purely biological explanation of mental illness has actually been associated with an increase in stigma instead of a decrease by at least two studies.[58][59]
I removed this paragraph because it incorrectly implies that Breggin pioneered the ideas that antidepressants are tied to suicide and violence in 1991, and that these ideas became mainstream many years later.
Suggestions that antidepressants are associated with suicidiality were around as early as 1964. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817583/ Other articles discussing this connection were published in 1984 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3097733), in 1986 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3538914), in 1987 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3110852), in 1988 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183073), and was discussed in literally dozens of papers published by other authors in 1990. Pubmed has no Breggin publications on this subject prior to 1992, a year after his 1991 book. He appears to have been riding on the coattails of others on this particular issue.
Some of the papers above also note connections with violent behavior, though this putative connection does not seem to have become mainstream. Treatment guidelines by major medical groups do not note violence as a side effect of SSRI therapy, and the package insert merely notes that spontaneous reports of unestablished causation exist. Two barriers to presenting Breggin as a pioneer of an idea that was only much later appreciated by others in this context are that 1) others suggested a connection before he did, and 2) We have no MEDRS compliant references stating that this idea has ever become widely accepted. Formerly 98 ( talk) 18:17, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
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I removed a couple of poorly sourced contentious claims [7]. Among other problems, a wikipedian should not interpret interviews by the subject. The interviews should be interpreted in a reliable 3rd party secondary RS. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I've been trying to clarify about his politics/religion/upbringing, does anyone happen to know the best (open) sources? He apparently grew up in New York state and started undergrad American History and volunteering at a local mental health facility. I've found bits suggesting he's a libertarian but "I started out with a very strong streak of libertarianism, I said lets not have government regulation, lets regulate through the market, through malpractice and product liability suits and so on. But it's clear that the companies by and large, from my experience, do only what they are absolutely forced to do". [8] He seems to have something in common with Szasz but to disagree on other things. He mentions God influencing his life from age 16/17 (wasn't able to continue with running competitions) but I saw a mention that he's not a Christian? [9] Does he believe in souls, what's his philosophy of mind/brain? He seems to have been entirely separate from, and critical of the internal practices and legal threats of, Scientology, since having some links with them in the early 70s (sources in the article [10] and [11]), marrying Ginger in 1984 after meeting her in the early 70s when she (unlike him) was a member but had left Scientology 'unauthorized' and has made complaints against it? [12] This WP article says he clarified that he agrees with some of CCHR (Scientology) views, but in the source he says they seem to share a number of his views - but suggests the media are too afraid to criticize them because of their legal threats - what am I missing, is there some evidence or rumor he's more linked to or supportive of them than he lets on, or is it just the historical links? He says "My wife was a Scientologist, and is now so strongly anti-Scientology, that if I even took a phone call from a Scientologist, she'd be on my back. ... I don't want to take on the Scientologists. I've got enough trouble taking on psychiatry". Neurohz ( talk) 14:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
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I had a cursory look at 'COVID-19 and the Global Predators: We are the Prey', Breggin's new book, and it references several well-known and repeatedly debunked claims, such as the COVID-19 vaccine being untested and possibly dangerous. I think it would be a good idea to note that in this article. 155.43.78.54 ( talk) 17:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
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I really think the author of this article needs to specify Breggin's formal training. Supposedly he went to Harvard for undergraduate school, then to Case Western Reserve Medical school. Normally, after medical school a prospective physician then does an internship, either general or in a specific field, then proceeds to the residency training which determines his or her specialty. At the completion of the residency training, he or she may then take "The Boards" in that specialty, and becomes a Board Certified Physician in whatever specialty he or she trained in. It appears that Breggin went from medical school to some type of research fellowship, then to some vague appointment to NIH, then went to a faculty appointment at Johns Hopkins. These are all top-notch institutions, but what did he research at first? And what was his position at NIH? And in what department was he a faculty member of at Hopkins? Did he do any specialty at all? Is he Board Certified in any field? These are not trivial questions, as they speak to his formal training in the field in which he has made his name, and of which he is so critical. It is not enough to go to a reputable institution, what one does while at that particular institution is equally, if not more, important. From the article (which, by the way, I found very interesting and balanced), it does appear that, at least as far as psychiatry may be concerned, he is somewhat of an autodidact. The problem with autodidacts, of course, is that their erudition is often like a Texas river: a mile wide and an inch deep. Cd195 ( talk) 04:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Being licensed by the state to practice law doesn’t make one a competent lawyer. Now that a huge percentage of American workers are in occupations requiring licenses, that has become, upside facto, putative evidence of expertise. For reasons of economics and prestige, professions demand to be licensed. Despite the alleged prohibition on it, Wikipedia bios are, in the main, models of appeal to authority. Nicmart ( talk) 04:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Blessed autocorrect. Nicmart ( talk) 04:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed that PeterBreggin has made a number of edits some of which imply a personal knowledge of Peter Breggin. Is PeterBreggin Peter Breggin?-- scuro ( talk) 14:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
This is Peter Breggin and I have been making changes on my biography. This week is actually the first time I've looked at it, ever. Really.
I've tried to learn the ropes, to clarify my identity some, to fix up the citations, but not to make substantial additions or changes. I am disappointed and rather surprised that so much attack is permitted on the page. From the page, it would hardly seem that I'd accompished all that much.
More specifically, I am surprised that the quotes from the judges are allowed but apparently I am not allowed to explain anything in rebuttal. For example, what the issues where in the cases, which is important, since they were cutting edge questions in which time as confirmed most of my views, for example, that electroshock causes permanent memory loss. Or the fact that one of the judges went to work immediately after the trial for the defendant's firm.
I am not sure what "referenced" criticism have been removed. There was a reference to a Forbes article which was very hostile, drug-company inspired, and old. The Center for the Study of Psychiatry is patently not confined to me as suggested. I don't even run it anymore, the director lives in NYC, and hundreds of professionals are involved.
Meanwhile, I am typing onto someone else's box--and haven't yet figured out how to start my own.
Do you want to tell me who you are? PB
Marie588 ( talk) 13:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Re: "... I've never started anyone on psychiatric drugs."
That may be true but is somewhat misleading. It does not reflect that Dr. Breggin does prescribe psychiatric drugs to clients who transfer from other psychiatrists and who are already taking such prescriptions.
It is indisputably problematic that in Scuro claims this statement (bold text denotes changes):
becomes "unreferenced" when edited to:
yet neither statement is referenced! The only difference is that the former is a blatant straw-man and non-NPOV smear against Breggin (like so many other statements of wiki-editor opinion in this entry). So Scuro clearly appears to define 'unreferenced' as: "unreferenced and not derogatory of Breggin." Or perhaps Scuro can explain to us how the former became unreferenced when it became not derogatory of Breggin.
Furthermore, Breggin is not a scientist and has never claimed to be. He is a private-practice psychiatrist, and thus physician. The first statement Scario favors is a classic staw-man in fabricating a false position for Breggin not reflecting a position he's taken and then scoring a fallacious hit by making it seem as if he's defined a special status for himself of being a scientists who need not conduct studies. It's horrible that wikipedia provides a platform for such non-NPOV abuse of persons. 96.241.126.252 ( talk) 17:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
About deleting my edit, Scuro says:
But it references wikipedia and logical fallacies are hardly 'personal judgments'. But let's talk about it. The statement I noted as invoking argumentum ad populum (which should instead be the fallacy of appeal to authority) is this derogatory statement about Breggin made by Stephen Barrett:
Can someone explain (1) how that statement is not an appeal to authority, and (2) why, if it is, wiki-readers should not want to identify instances of fallacies? 96.241.126.252 ( talk) 19:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm coming at it on a much simpler level. Take this passage written by user 96.241.126.252, "But it references wikipedia and logical fallacies are hardly 'personal judgments'. But let's talk about it. The statement I noted as invoking argumentum ad populum (which should instead be the fallacy of appeal to authority) is this derogatory statement about Breggin made by Stephen Barrett". I can reference many things to Wikipedia, that doesn't mean I can use them in a personal argument, and post that on Wikipedia. If someone of note has made these observations, by all means reference them and post the citation. This is an encyclopedia and the persuasive essay format should be avoided. In an essay we try to persuade readers of our viewpoint and we do that by characterization of the subject through observed "proofs". Do you understand my objection now? It would be nice if you identified yourself, the claw marks look familiar. Also proof reading your posts will stop that nasty habit of misspelling other contributors names. Thanks ahead of time. -- scuro ( talk) 22:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Barrett has written and edited books and articles about health practices about which he has no relevant credentials, if credentials be important. The criticism leveled at psychiatry for generations is that it is a pseudoscience, and therefore to debunk it requires no education in it. That is precisely how Barrett has behaved toward a myriad of activities he considers to be pseudoscience. Now maybe someone can invoke argumentum ad populum, and I will remind you that the history of psychiatry is festooned with such nonsense as epileptics are criminals, masturbation causes insanity, and gastric ulcers are caused by emotional stress. Nicmart ( talk) 01:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
The size of the Bibliography section is ballooning, it needs paring down to what illustrates Breggin's career and views. Wikipedia is not a place to store the CV or list of publications of someone.... -- Crusio ( talk) 19:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should be carefully checked. Just today, I found two claims that were really overstated. The first was that Breggin "was selected by the National Institute of Health (NIH) to be the expert on brain injury caused by ECT at the 1985 NIH Consensus Development Conference on ECT" (emphasis added). Turns out (see ref in article) that he was just one of many speakers at a session organized by the consensus panel and that he was not even a member of this panel (and the latter apparently mostly ignored Breggin in its conclusions). The second was that "Breggin is a life member of the American Psychiatric Association". Sounds really impressive, until one looks up the APA website and finds that "Any member who has reached the age of 65 and has belonged to the APA for a total of 25 years, may choose to begin a dues-reduction schedule, culminating in Life Member status and exemption from APA dues."
An anonymous IP has been making numerous edits today. Many edits just added superfluous info that only seems to be geared to make things look impressive (for instance, adding that his latest book is published by "the Springer Publishing Company", something that is already said in the way-too-long bibliography). Another addition is that "EHSS is received and archived at the National Library of Medicine (pubmed: 101231408[NlmId])". If EHSS would not be indexed by NLM, that would be more remarkable. As it is, this is not interesting and, in any case, whether indexed or not this info does not belong here but in the article on the journal.
A further issue is the addition of a long citation to Hirsch on h-index values. The original edit cited Hirsch quite selectively (see history if you want to see what I mean). Again, this info does not belong here and is already presented in the article on the h-index. Additionally, as it stands now, I think this statement is rather denigrating to Breggin: it basically says that after a long career, he has reached a point where he could be considered for tenure as a mere associate professor. What a lifetime total of 382 citations in the scientific literature means is that his works have been largely ignored by the scientific community. That is an NPOV statement, it does not imply anything about whether his views are right or wrong, it just says something about how they were received by his peers. Another editor, Nmg20, changed this text to "These relatively low numbers indicate that his work is not considered useful and/or influential by the scientific community." This is not correct either, it is a conclusion that this editor draws from the data (and hence original research). Low citation counts means being ignored, that is not an OR conclusion and not a POV. The anonymous IP has reverted me when I put the old text back and I am not in the mood to start an edit war over this. I just would like to note that the way things are currently formulated probably constitutes a violation of WP:BLP. -- Crusio ( talk) 23:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
You may want to use of these tags on the article.
This article may be written from a
fan's point of view, rather than a
neutral point of view. (August 2008) |
The factual accuracy of this article may be compromised due to out-of-date information. Please help update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. |
This article may have misleading content. |
This article may relate to
a different subject or has
undue weight on an aspect of the subject. (August 2008) |
This article contains wording that
promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information. (August 2008) |
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (August 2008) |
-- scuro ( talk) 03:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The repeated insertion by Crusio of his personal POV about the meaning of the h-index and Crusio's repeated deletion of the objective citation to its meaning by its originator (Hirsh) is prima facie vandalism. Furthermore, the point being made is that an h-index has to be interpreted in context. So saying Breggin has a low h-index relative to academics and scientists is comparing an individual to success criteria in other professions. Applying NPOV criteria requires comparing an individual's success to his career peers. And as we all know, Breggin is a private-practice psychiatrist.
Given that, a good example of a peer to Breggin is Stephan Barrett as both are psychiatrists, and Barrett happens to be a critic of Breggin's whose expertise Crusio is on record admiring in contrast to Breggin. However, in a review at isiknowledge.com it seems that Barrett's h-index is all of 1, one tenth of Breggin's "lowly" h-index! Now, there are a number of "Barret, S" authors who are not this Barrett. But I only pull up 4 pages of them from which this Barrett is easily disambiguated. And it seems that he has all of 1 genuine peer-reviewed paper at isi (apart from those debunking his paper), unlike 37 papers for Breggin listed at isi. So doing a citation report on Barrett's only isi-listed paper suffices to cover the whole of Barrett's citation report. If there is disagreement, please make this clear. Let's actually try to establish an accurate NPOV peer context for interpreting Breggin's h-index.
This demonstrates that if in an objective NPOV context Breggin's h-index is compared to his career peers, not to those on other career paths, it stands out as uniquely high. What would be particularly relevant would be to find an average h-index for private-practice psychiatrists. I'd bet it's around 1. 136.160.224.142 ( talk) 16:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
There was quite a lof o sudden "cleaning up" of critical comments, so I reverted. I wonder if some reason will be stated for the deletion. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 15:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
FYI, regarding the use of Quackwatch as a source.... An amendment to a previous ArbCom finding has been made. In the process, important observations were made about the use of Quackwatch as a source. -- Fyslee ( talk) 15:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
from WP:V:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
So the fact that we should not use primary source legal documents does not automatically preclude that we might use primary source material published by the subject of the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:49, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Please be careful to follow MOS. No spaces between multiple refs; no spacing between punctuation and ref; no punctuation after a ref, etc.. I just did a major cleanup. Let's keep it that way. Thanks. -- Fyslee ( talk) 02:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I have filed a report at AN/I. I suggest that Mihai cartoaje and other editors take a look. -- Fyslee ( talk) 06:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I find it a little hard to believe that Breggin had significant role in FDA's black box labeling of SSRIs. The way the that section is written it leads the reader to think that his role must have been so. No third party sources are cited saying that. Xasodfuih ( talk) 15:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I was going to write what Peter Jensen the psychiatrist said about Breggin on PBS, as it's fairly substantive [6], but of course he's a nobody on the wiki. Xasodfuih ( talk) 19:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
If we're going to have an NPOV discussion of Breggin's previous views on this topic, and if there are sufficient sources to do it, that would be fine. But it's ridiculous to include "criticism" of something which the body of the article never describes. Even the sources cited never criticize the view per se, other than by way of an insinuation that it's obviously contrary to common sense. But WP:NOR forbids putting words in their mouths. Using the child sexuality issue as way to attack Breggin's unrelated views on psychiatric medication is not journalism. This material isn't up to WP:BLP standards. Alessandra Napolitano ( talk) 02:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Time has noted that other mental health professionals worry that "Breggin reinforces the myth that mental illness is not real, that you wouldn't be ill if you'd pull yourself up by the bootstraps...his views stop people from getting treatment. They could cost a life."[5] However, despite this concern, an emphasis on a purely biological explanation of mental illness has actually been associated with an increase in stigma instead of a decrease by at least two studies.[58][59]
I removed this paragraph because it incorrectly implies that Breggin pioneered the ideas that antidepressants are tied to suicide and violence in 1991, and that these ideas became mainstream many years later.
Suggestions that antidepressants are associated with suicidiality were around as early as 1964. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817583/ Other articles discussing this connection were published in 1984 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3097733), in 1986 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3538914), in 1987 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3110852), in 1988 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183073), and was discussed in literally dozens of papers published by other authors in 1990. Pubmed has no Breggin publications on this subject prior to 1992, a year after his 1991 book. He appears to have been riding on the coattails of others on this particular issue.
Some of the papers above also note connections with violent behavior, though this putative connection does not seem to have become mainstream. Treatment guidelines by major medical groups do not note violence as a side effect of SSRI therapy, and the package insert merely notes that spontaneous reports of unestablished causation exist. Two barriers to presenting Breggin as a pioneer of an idea that was only much later appreciated by others in this context are that 1) others suggested a connection before he did, and 2) We have no MEDRS compliant references stating that this idea has ever become widely accepted. Formerly 98 ( talk) 18:17, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
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I removed a couple of poorly sourced contentious claims [7]. Among other problems, a wikipedian should not interpret interviews by the subject. The interviews should be interpreted in a reliable 3rd party secondary RS. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I've been trying to clarify about his politics/religion/upbringing, does anyone happen to know the best (open) sources? He apparently grew up in New York state and started undergrad American History and volunteering at a local mental health facility. I've found bits suggesting he's a libertarian but "I started out with a very strong streak of libertarianism, I said lets not have government regulation, lets regulate through the market, through malpractice and product liability suits and so on. But it's clear that the companies by and large, from my experience, do only what they are absolutely forced to do". [8] He seems to have something in common with Szasz but to disagree on other things. He mentions God influencing his life from age 16/17 (wasn't able to continue with running competitions) but I saw a mention that he's not a Christian? [9] Does he believe in souls, what's his philosophy of mind/brain? He seems to have been entirely separate from, and critical of the internal practices and legal threats of, Scientology, since having some links with them in the early 70s (sources in the article [10] and [11]), marrying Ginger in 1984 after meeting her in the early 70s when she (unlike him) was a member but had left Scientology 'unauthorized' and has made complaints against it? [12] This WP article says he clarified that he agrees with some of CCHR (Scientology) views, but in the source he says they seem to share a number of his views - but suggests the media are too afraid to criticize them because of their legal threats - what am I missing, is there some evidence or rumor he's more linked to or supportive of them than he lets on, or is it just the historical links? He says "My wife was a Scientologist, and is now so strongly anti-Scientology, that if I even took a phone call from a Scientologist, she'd be on my back. ... I don't want to take on the Scientologists. I've got enough trouble taking on psychiatry". Neurohz ( talk) 14:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
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I had a cursory look at 'COVID-19 and the Global Predators: We are the Prey', Breggin's new book, and it references several well-known and repeatedly debunked claims, such as the COVID-19 vaccine being untested and possibly dangerous. I think it would be a good idea to note that in this article. 155.43.78.54 ( talk) 17:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC)