This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Penis envy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Im.turner. Peer reviewers: Mztissa.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:21, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"...Misconception that a larger penis is universally more satisfying and appealing to a woman..." - This is unfounded. Whether a larger penis is more satisfying than a smaller one is somewhat debatable, certainly the extremes of small and large are not going to satisfy a partner, however it is not correct to say that the mere sight of a large penis is not appealing to most women (or possibly gay men, though that is not mentioned in the article).
I myself do not see how the subject is related the the Freudian theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.182.227 ( talk) 04:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I think there should be an other article about Penis size envy. -- Love Krittaya ( talk) 11:05, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
I genuinely think that this article is an enormous misreading and bastardisation of the concept of penis envy, complete with quite a lot of theorising about what really causes gender roles and what men are like. The concept may be out-dated, but I don't think you'd know from this article, which doesn't even begin to describe the concept adequately.
So help us add to it Urthogie 00:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Ive got an envy for something long.... something like a thick edit from you to fix the article that is a "bastardisation of the concept". You seem to have some knowledge on it, which is probly rare for such an 'outdated' concept. Jesus On Wheels 11:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I will endeavour to try and fix the article with references from Freud as soon as I am able, but unfortunately I know it's going to take a while, which is why I was bringing it to people's attention. In the meantime, I really would recommend someone checks stuff in this piece, because it's mostly just plain wrong, and is kind of embarrassing.
Hi - I wrote some of the stuff above. The article is now much improved. Tom Coates 15:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Feminists,
If you are going to leave such a clear signature in this article, can you please make a decent effort in spelling and punctuation, or even run your spellcheckers over the text before submitting it? Otherwise, you're not helping your cause! A text looking like it has been written in anger is likely to detract from its intellectual merits. Samsara 13:11, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Some feminists have suggested men's desire for female breasts constitute breast envy. Of course, this can't be universally because many men have big breasts and all men are capable of getting breast cancer.
Unlike the falsified predictions of Freudian penis envy, and evolutionary psychology penis envy, feminist theories predict that penis envy declines as society becomes more egalitarian, and more women are placed in the highest levels of power.
"placed in highest levels of power"?? Either this is patronising to women or a stab at neoliberal democracy... either way, it could do with rewording... - FrancisTyers 03:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
If women have a penis envy, so it gives 3 reasons for it:
1. only the penis is able to penetrate in any body 2. the penis is much more noticeable than the vulva in generally and especially to the clitoris 3. urination by standing (penis) -- Fackel 19:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
What is so special and great about urinating standing up??? Is not a stronger jet of higher prestige, no matter if standing or squatting?? This is what woman can better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.167.233 ( talk) 17:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
This shouldn't even be mentioned in the article. Everyone knows feminists are ignorant people. BTW, how about some pussy envy?
I found the following line in the article interesting:
Now I have read a lot on the subject of evolutionary psychology, and I have never read of anybody in that field speculate on the idea of penis envy, (though I have read of evolutionary psychologists criticizing the Oedipal complex from the perspective of parent-offspring conflict.) I'd be curious to know what evolutionary psychologist(s) has made speculations on penis envy. I strongly suspect that most, if not all, evolutionary psychologists would find the concept absurd.
If I may speculate further: I realize that feminists quite often aren't exactly crazy about evolutionary psychology. However, I believe that criticisms from feminists on EP are often times based on misconceptions about EP...misconceptions that are understandable, considering the history of how biology has been applied to human behavior with things like Social Darwinism and eugenics. My suspicion in regards to this article, (and of course I may be wrong), is that some people may be reading penis envy into evolutionary psychology, when it's not actually there. But as I said, I could be wrong!
As a final note, some people may find it intersting that there are attempts to find common ground between these two fields. Check out
EPM 18:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested to know what people thought of this article now. I've changed it significantly, while trying to leave all the accurate, relevant stuff that was in it before.
Specifically, I've included a section on what Freud's theory actually was (which, to my surprise, was essentially completely absent).
There certainly was a lot of writing on 'Feminist Critisisms' in the old version. It seemed to be pretty ad hoc, with many individuals adding their own "two cents" without bothering to make sure the article was consistent throughout. And to be honest, I felt that much of what was written wasn't really academic at all. It was really just a collection of half-baked ideas that people tried to express using impressive-sounding polysyllabic words! I don't think a wikipedia article is an appropriate venting place for either pro-feminist or anti-feminist sentiment.
The article was rightfully questioned; it wasn't actually an article.
The revised version is still long, in fact I think it is longer than the old one. Some might find that surprising, considering that penis envy was such a small part of Freud's psychosexual development theory. I would agree. I think this article is actually longer than the one on Freud's psychosexual development as a whole (which is pretty silly). It seems this had to be the case, because penis envy has attracted far more attention/criticism than it deserves on the basis of merit or significance. In this way, it is one of Freud's most sociologically and morally significant concepts, and (as with all things moral) demands much comment.
Dan.
It's an significant - enormous, even - improvement. I was the person who left the first comment on the discussion page, and am absolutely delighted that the Freudian theory has now been clarified. As you say, although it has been widely discredited - or not taken seriously - it's a much more nuanced and intelligent theory than the previous article led people to believe. I'm also really happy that you've taken on some of the more idle commenters and stripped them out from the piece. The many critiques of the theory deserve as much and as good treatment as the theory itself does, but until you'd done this work, neither was getting sufficient attention.
seriously, just because there is atleast one feminist in the world does not mean that their opinion matters...
This article is written in Australian English for a reason; the person who wrote it is Australian! Changing single words to their American equivalent makes the article linguistically inconsistent.
And I think changing the entire article to American English is disrespecting. I'm not sure what the Wikipedia rules are with respect to this sort of thing, but unless someone can show me that relinguishing my language is required to contribute to this project I intend to maintain the Australian_English present within this article.
So deal with the fact that not everybody uses 'z' in every second word! I'm talking to the guy that switched 'realises' to 'realizes'!!!
Thanks for hearing my rant. - Patch 08:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
the criticism section states that these ideas were first discussed in the victorian era. Earlier in the article it says that Freud published in 1908 and 1914, several years after Victoria died. I don't want to make 1/2 informed edits, but maybe someone could correct this. Epeeist smudge 10:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is far from the scientific concept Freud developed. While his theories may not be in vogue any longer--this particular article is more about the criticisms to the concept because of understandable hostility to the idea.
As a result, the actual theory behind it isn't accurately conveyed as should be in an encyclopedia, and the article ends up being hijacked by the "criticism." More appropriate would be completely listing the theory, rather than objections at each point, and followed with criticisms at the end, OR.. Simply making another page, "criticisms of 'penis envy.'"
As it stands now, the article is largely uninformative except to the fact that some people find the idea offensive, others find it funny. 68.100.15.212 09:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
All this these rants aren't needed and hurt the flow of the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.10.2 ( talk) 03:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article is more about neofeminist view of penis envy rather than penis envy itself. Perhaps the title should be changed. 81.157.83.220 ( talk) 21:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Why was the masculinist criticism of feminism, often using the phrase "penis envy" to describe it deleted?
This part didn't seem to have any relation to psychoanalytic circles; it didn't claim that it was psychoanalysts (as opposed to "observational research[ers]") that have leveled these criticisms.
-- zenohockey ( talk) 03:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
As a girl I have never had penis envy and I have never wanted a penis. Honestly I have even felt very grateful that I dont have one...Seriously I think this is a crazy theory by men who think they are clearly superior and that women should look up to them. 20:53 24 February 2010 (Utc)
It's not a crazy theory and women hate to reveal it. You are a liar.
Is it really necessary to say that criticism of the idea of 'penis envy' has come from feminists? I would not consider myself a feminist, but I am female and I am against the idea of penis envy just based on personal experience. I didn't even know that boys had penises when I was at what Freud calls the "phallic stage" (somewhere between ages 3 and 6.) I knew that there were some physical differences of course, but I didn't really know what the differences were. I just knew I didn't like boys. There certainly wasn't any sort of jealousy or envy felt on my part. I'm not saying that this should be added to the article as it is all opinion, but I don't see why only feminists are listed as critics. There are a lot of people who view feminists as ridiculous radicals who think all things male are bad and to say that feminists are the only ones who criticize the idea makes it seem like one which is accepted by reasonable members of society. I feel that this is not true and that there are a great many critics of penis envy who aren't feminist, but are simply female.
As a male who knows quite well how mean and sneaky women can be, I dare to speculate that you do not passed through that penis envy feeling, because you do not like men after all. In my humble opinion "the penis envy feeling" can be revealed in women because of their nature and the way they "like" men:
- need to possess a man, without appreciating him with sensuality.
- jealousy about men's sexuality. Need to control men, and "castrate" their penis.
- anti-sex attitude, replaced with an emphasis on "love", which is for women a need to own, rather than a need to enjoy.
- love-hate complexes. A constant thing in female sexuality. Compulsion to fall in love with patterns of power in men. Disdain for men who do not show power. "if you can't beat your enemy, join him"
- Constant denial of the reality. Feelings of taking offense when the reality is crudely shown. "The truth is taboo. It should not be disclosed"
- compulsive need to do libel against men. Need to blame men, often by revealing their own nature in the accusations women do against men.
I understand that it's not that simple and linear. It varies according to many women. I also understand that this feelings also exist in men.
I know my comment is going to be deleted. It's just a theory based on everyday observation. A Theory is a theory, not something proven. When it's proven it stops being theory and it becomes scientific fact. I assume that there is a strong risk of error when men speculate about women's sexuality, mostly because men are not women.
It should be women to reveal their own sexual patterns, not men by them. But how, if they do not like to show how they are? Need to hide their penis envy feelings? maybe...— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.214.80.22 (
talk) 23:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
So, is your laugh the result of your pennis envy? At least you're honest in accepting that. Thanks from dude to an envious person with penis envy.
Doesn't appear anywhere in any clinical psychiatry book I've seen. This wiki is supposed to be about a Fruedian complex that was coined "penis envy". I do not want to go look at a wiki about multi-personality disorder and read about cross-dressering "queens". It doesn't belong here.
So what? What does those mentioned disorders, if they are, have to do with the penis envy issue? It seems an excuse.
I am a straight female who is not a feminist, and I think this theory is crazy. I am very annoyed that the people who disagree with the theory are immediatly labeled feminist or liars... Seriously, I had never heard of this theory before and when I did I thought it was completely false. Very few people in modern society, in my experiance, have penis envy. Maybe a hundred years back the theory was acceptable, since women had less rights than men and so they would prefer to be men, but in modern society where our rights are basically the same, most women would not want to have a penis. And even a hundred years ago, women didnt want a penis, they wanted the rights and independence having a penis would grant, not the organ itself.
Unfortunately, women do experience penis envy. I wish it I could dismiss it out of hand, but there is no way I can. The points contained in the discussion are relevant, i.e. peeing standing up is one of the major reasons. Sad, but true.
But not for peeing, this is clearly an advantage for women. They have a more powerful jet and can do much quicker! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.105.211 ( talk) 16:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Woody Allen's quip of "male penis envy" is clearly intended as self-deprecating humor. I made slight edits including the removal of two bad links: one link returned an error (no page found) and the other link went to a note about HIV partners (completely unrelated to what the author was claiming the link went to). I retained the general structure of this section even though I think this sub-topic is unrelated to the subject at hand. Groovymaster ( talk)
The only evaluation of the theory we have here is the one of feminists and psychoanalysts. I think it would be interesting to include, in this article, what actual psychologists (not psychoanalysts) think of it. Most of them are very skeptical about Freud's theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.73.193.216 ( talk) 14:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Can this article be any more transphobic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.79.151 ( talk) 06:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Isn't Electra Complex Jungian rather than Freudian concept? I think there should be better distinction between Freud's original ideas and those of his students, colleagues and followers. I suggest the merger of this article into Psychosexual development. Igor Klimeš ( talk) 23:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Besides looking like utter nonsense, isn't this missing a number of explanations for strange assumptions without which it all falls apart? Forget the controversial Oedipal/Elektra emotional stuff, there are far more basic assumptions at play here: a) The girl would have to have some notion of the existence of such a thing as a penis b) The girl would have to realize that her father HAS a penis (!) c) The girl would have to have some notion of a key difference between the tiny things she might see a male child use to urinate and an adult male sexual organ d) The girl would have to understand the concept of puberty granting little boys a functional adult penis when they grow up e) The girl would have to have an extensive understanding of the nature of heterosexual intercourse f) The girl would have to have a decent understanding of the importance of said sexual intercourse in her parents' relationship g) The girl would have to have two parents (g1) whose relationship is both emotionally close (g2) and highly sexual (g3) at this moment in her development - actually statistically extremely unlikely in its own right h) The girl would have to have the mental capacity, reasoning skills, and inquisitiveness to put ALL of this together and compare and contrast it with the features of her own body i) The girl would thus have to have extensive voyeuristic tendencies and numerous chances to peep on males and females of various ages bathing, urinating, and procreating - requiring access to bedrooms and bathrooms, the presence of multiple males and females sharing these facilities, and also a total lack of desire for privacy and/or zero attention to what the child is trying to observe. Etc., etc., etc. ...all in all, that's just too much. Winning the lottery is child's play compared to fulfilling all of these conditions *BY AGE SIX*. Somehow, none of the unlikelihood of all these conditions being simultaneously satisfied is addressed at all in the article. 208.127.80.210 ( talk) 22:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Please. Take this article, throw it away, write a good article. Create a separate article "Criticism's of Freud's Sociosexual Development Theories". The criticisms do not belong in the article or should be in a subsection at best.
As it stands, this article does not address the topic at all. A reader coming here to understand Freud's theory, would not find that understanding here.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Penis envy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Im.turner. Peer reviewers: Mztissa.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:21, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
"...Misconception that a larger penis is universally more satisfying and appealing to a woman..." - This is unfounded. Whether a larger penis is more satisfying than a smaller one is somewhat debatable, certainly the extremes of small and large are not going to satisfy a partner, however it is not correct to say that the mere sight of a large penis is not appealing to most women (or possibly gay men, though that is not mentioned in the article).
I myself do not see how the subject is related the the Freudian theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.182.227 ( talk) 04:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I think there should be an other article about Penis size envy. -- Love Krittaya ( talk) 11:05, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
I genuinely think that this article is an enormous misreading and bastardisation of the concept of penis envy, complete with quite a lot of theorising about what really causes gender roles and what men are like. The concept may be out-dated, but I don't think you'd know from this article, which doesn't even begin to describe the concept adequately.
So help us add to it Urthogie 00:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Ive got an envy for something long.... something like a thick edit from you to fix the article that is a "bastardisation of the concept". You seem to have some knowledge on it, which is probly rare for such an 'outdated' concept. Jesus On Wheels 11:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I will endeavour to try and fix the article with references from Freud as soon as I am able, but unfortunately I know it's going to take a while, which is why I was bringing it to people's attention. In the meantime, I really would recommend someone checks stuff in this piece, because it's mostly just plain wrong, and is kind of embarrassing.
Hi - I wrote some of the stuff above. The article is now much improved. Tom Coates 15:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Feminists,
If you are going to leave such a clear signature in this article, can you please make a decent effort in spelling and punctuation, or even run your spellcheckers over the text before submitting it? Otherwise, you're not helping your cause! A text looking like it has been written in anger is likely to detract from its intellectual merits. Samsara 13:11, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Some feminists have suggested men's desire for female breasts constitute breast envy. Of course, this can't be universally because many men have big breasts and all men are capable of getting breast cancer.
Unlike the falsified predictions of Freudian penis envy, and evolutionary psychology penis envy, feminist theories predict that penis envy declines as society becomes more egalitarian, and more women are placed in the highest levels of power.
"placed in highest levels of power"?? Either this is patronising to women or a stab at neoliberal democracy... either way, it could do with rewording... - FrancisTyers 03:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
If women have a penis envy, so it gives 3 reasons for it:
1. only the penis is able to penetrate in any body 2. the penis is much more noticeable than the vulva in generally and especially to the clitoris 3. urination by standing (penis) -- Fackel 19:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
What is so special and great about urinating standing up??? Is not a stronger jet of higher prestige, no matter if standing or squatting?? This is what woman can better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.167.233 ( talk) 17:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
This shouldn't even be mentioned in the article. Everyone knows feminists are ignorant people. BTW, how about some pussy envy?
I found the following line in the article interesting:
Now I have read a lot on the subject of evolutionary psychology, and I have never read of anybody in that field speculate on the idea of penis envy, (though I have read of evolutionary psychologists criticizing the Oedipal complex from the perspective of parent-offspring conflict.) I'd be curious to know what evolutionary psychologist(s) has made speculations on penis envy. I strongly suspect that most, if not all, evolutionary psychologists would find the concept absurd.
If I may speculate further: I realize that feminists quite often aren't exactly crazy about evolutionary psychology. However, I believe that criticisms from feminists on EP are often times based on misconceptions about EP...misconceptions that are understandable, considering the history of how biology has been applied to human behavior with things like Social Darwinism and eugenics. My suspicion in regards to this article, (and of course I may be wrong), is that some people may be reading penis envy into evolutionary psychology, when it's not actually there. But as I said, I could be wrong!
As a final note, some people may find it intersting that there are attempts to find common ground between these two fields. Check out
EPM 18:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested to know what people thought of this article now. I've changed it significantly, while trying to leave all the accurate, relevant stuff that was in it before.
Specifically, I've included a section on what Freud's theory actually was (which, to my surprise, was essentially completely absent).
There certainly was a lot of writing on 'Feminist Critisisms' in the old version. It seemed to be pretty ad hoc, with many individuals adding their own "two cents" without bothering to make sure the article was consistent throughout. And to be honest, I felt that much of what was written wasn't really academic at all. It was really just a collection of half-baked ideas that people tried to express using impressive-sounding polysyllabic words! I don't think a wikipedia article is an appropriate venting place for either pro-feminist or anti-feminist sentiment.
The article was rightfully questioned; it wasn't actually an article.
The revised version is still long, in fact I think it is longer than the old one. Some might find that surprising, considering that penis envy was such a small part of Freud's psychosexual development theory. I would agree. I think this article is actually longer than the one on Freud's psychosexual development as a whole (which is pretty silly). It seems this had to be the case, because penis envy has attracted far more attention/criticism than it deserves on the basis of merit or significance. In this way, it is one of Freud's most sociologically and morally significant concepts, and (as with all things moral) demands much comment.
Dan.
It's an significant - enormous, even - improvement. I was the person who left the first comment on the discussion page, and am absolutely delighted that the Freudian theory has now been clarified. As you say, although it has been widely discredited - or not taken seriously - it's a much more nuanced and intelligent theory than the previous article led people to believe. I'm also really happy that you've taken on some of the more idle commenters and stripped them out from the piece. The many critiques of the theory deserve as much and as good treatment as the theory itself does, but until you'd done this work, neither was getting sufficient attention.
seriously, just because there is atleast one feminist in the world does not mean that their opinion matters...
This article is written in Australian English for a reason; the person who wrote it is Australian! Changing single words to their American equivalent makes the article linguistically inconsistent.
And I think changing the entire article to American English is disrespecting. I'm not sure what the Wikipedia rules are with respect to this sort of thing, but unless someone can show me that relinguishing my language is required to contribute to this project I intend to maintain the Australian_English present within this article.
So deal with the fact that not everybody uses 'z' in every second word! I'm talking to the guy that switched 'realises' to 'realizes'!!!
Thanks for hearing my rant. - Patch 08:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
the criticism section states that these ideas were first discussed in the victorian era. Earlier in the article it says that Freud published in 1908 and 1914, several years after Victoria died. I don't want to make 1/2 informed edits, but maybe someone could correct this. Epeeist smudge 10:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is far from the scientific concept Freud developed. While his theories may not be in vogue any longer--this particular article is more about the criticisms to the concept because of understandable hostility to the idea.
As a result, the actual theory behind it isn't accurately conveyed as should be in an encyclopedia, and the article ends up being hijacked by the "criticism." More appropriate would be completely listing the theory, rather than objections at each point, and followed with criticisms at the end, OR.. Simply making another page, "criticisms of 'penis envy.'"
As it stands now, the article is largely uninformative except to the fact that some people find the idea offensive, others find it funny. 68.100.15.212 09:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
All this these rants aren't needed and hurt the flow of the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.10.2 ( talk) 03:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article is more about neofeminist view of penis envy rather than penis envy itself. Perhaps the title should be changed. 81.157.83.220 ( talk) 21:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Why was the masculinist criticism of feminism, often using the phrase "penis envy" to describe it deleted?
This part didn't seem to have any relation to psychoanalytic circles; it didn't claim that it was psychoanalysts (as opposed to "observational research[ers]") that have leveled these criticisms.
-- zenohockey ( talk) 03:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
As a girl I have never had penis envy and I have never wanted a penis. Honestly I have even felt very grateful that I dont have one...Seriously I think this is a crazy theory by men who think they are clearly superior and that women should look up to them. 20:53 24 February 2010 (Utc)
It's not a crazy theory and women hate to reveal it. You are a liar.
Is it really necessary to say that criticism of the idea of 'penis envy' has come from feminists? I would not consider myself a feminist, but I am female and I am against the idea of penis envy just based on personal experience. I didn't even know that boys had penises when I was at what Freud calls the "phallic stage" (somewhere between ages 3 and 6.) I knew that there were some physical differences of course, but I didn't really know what the differences were. I just knew I didn't like boys. There certainly wasn't any sort of jealousy or envy felt on my part. I'm not saying that this should be added to the article as it is all opinion, but I don't see why only feminists are listed as critics. There are a lot of people who view feminists as ridiculous radicals who think all things male are bad and to say that feminists are the only ones who criticize the idea makes it seem like one which is accepted by reasonable members of society. I feel that this is not true and that there are a great many critics of penis envy who aren't feminist, but are simply female.
As a male who knows quite well how mean and sneaky women can be, I dare to speculate that you do not passed through that penis envy feeling, because you do not like men after all. In my humble opinion "the penis envy feeling" can be revealed in women because of their nature and the way they "like" men:
- need to possess a man, without appreciating him with sensuality.
- jealousy about men's sexuality. Need to control men, and "castrate" their penis.
- anti-sex attitude, replaced with an emphasis on "love", which is for women a need to own, rather than a need to enjoy.
- love-hate complexes. A constant thing in female sexuality. Compulsion to fall in love with patterns of power in men. Disdain for men who do not show power. "if you can't beat your enemy, join him"
- Constant denial of the reality. Feelings of taking offense when the reality is crudely shown. "The truth is taboo. It should not be disclosed"
- compulsive need to do libel against men. Need to blame men, often by revealing their own nature in the accusations women do against men.
I understand that it's not that simple and linear. It varies according to many women. I also understand that this feelings also exist in men.
I know my comment is going to be deleted. It's just a theory based on everyday observation. A Theory is a theory, not something proven. When it's proven it stops being theory and it becomes scientific fact. I assume that there is a strong risk of error when men speculate about women's sexuality, mostly because men are not women.
It should be women to reveal their own sexual patterns, not men by them. But how, if they do not like to show how they are? Need to hide their penis envy feelings? maybe...— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.214.80.22 (
talk) 23:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
So, is your laugh the result of your pennis envy? At least you're honest in accepting that. Thanks from dude to an envious person with penis envy.
Doesn't appear anywhere in any clinical psychiatry book I've seen. This wiki is supposed to be about a Fruedian complex that was coined "penis envy". I do not want to go look at a wiki about multi-personality disorder and read about cross-dressering "queens". It doesn't belong here.
So what? What does those mentioned disorders, if they are, have to do with the penis envy issue? It seems an excuse.
I am a straight female who is not a feminist, and I think this theory is crazy. I am very annoyed that the people who disagree with the theory are immediatly labeled feminist or liars... Seriously, I had never heard of this theory before and when I did I thought it was completely false. Very few people in modern society, in my experiance, have penis envy. Maybe a hundred years back the theory was acceptable, since women had less rights than men and so they would prefer to be men, but in modern society where our rights are basically the same, most women would not want to have a penis. And even a hundred years ago, women didnt want a penis, they wanted the rights and independence having a penis would grant, not the organ itself.
Unfortunately, women do experience penis envy. I wish it I could dismiss it out of hand, but there is no way I can. The points contained in the discussion are relevant, i.e. peeing standing up is one of the major reasons. Sad, but true.
But not for peeing, this is clearly an advantage for women. They have a more powerful jet and can do much quicker! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.105.211 ( talk) 16:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Woody Allen's quip of "male penis envy" is clearly intended as self-deprecating humor. I made slight edits including the removal of two bad links: one link returned an error (no page found) and the other link went to a note about HIV partners (completely unrelated to what the author was claiming the link went to). I retained the general structure of this section even though I think this sub-topic is unrelated to the subject at hand. Groovymaster ( talk)
The only evaluation of the theory we have here is the one of feminists and psychoanalysts. I think it would be interesting to include, in this article, what actual psychologists (not psychoanalysts) think of it. Most of them are very skeptical about Freud's theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.73.193.216 ( talk) 14:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Can this article be any more transphobic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.79.151 ( talk) 06:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Isn't Electra Complex Jungian rather than Freudian concept? I think there should be better distinction between Freud's original ideas and those of his students, colleagues and followers. I suggest the merger of this article into Psychosexual development. Igor Klimeš ( talk) 23:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Besides looking like utter nonsense, isn't this missing a number of explanations for strange assumptions without which it all falls apart? Forget the controversial Oedipal/Elektra emotional stuff, there are far more basic assumptions at play here: a) The girl would have to have some notion of the existence of such a thing as a penis b) The girl would have to realize that her father HAS a penis (!) c) The girl would have to have some notion of a key difference between the tiny things she might see a male child use to urinate and an adult male sexual organ d) The girl would have to understand the concept of puberty granting little boys a functional adult penis when they grow up e) The girl would have to have an extensive understanding of the nature of heterosexual intercourse f) The girl would have to have a decent understanding of the importance of said sexual intercourse in her parents' relationship g) The girl would have to have two parents (g1) whose relationship is both emotionally close (g2) and highly sexual (g3) at this moment in her development - actually statistically extremely unlikely in its own right h) The girl would have to have the mental capacity, reasoning skills, and inquisitiveness to put ALL of this together and compare and contrast it with the features of her own body i) The girl would thus have to have extensive voyeuristic tendencies and numerous chances to peep on males and females of various ages bathing, urinating, and procreating - requiring access to bedrooms and bathrooms, the presence of multiple males and females sharing these facilities, and also a total lack of desire for privacy and/or zero attention to what the child is trying to observe. Etc., etc., etc. ...all in all, that's just too much. Winning the lottery is child's play compared to fulfilling all of these conditions *BY AGE SIX*. Somehow, none of the unlikelihood of all these conditions being simultaneously satisfied is addressed at all in the article. 208.127.80.210 ( talk) 22:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Please. Take this article, throw it away, write a good article. Create a separate article "Criticism's of Freud's Sociosexual Development Theories". The criticisms do not belong in the article or should be in a subsection at best.
As it stands, this article does not address the topic at all. A reader coming here to understand Freud's theory, would not find that understanding here.