Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Hi Gamaliel, I am writing to follow up on your restoration of this article after I redirected it to Voice of America, and I am wondering if you could explain your reasoning. After my attempts to revise and expand the article, it appeared to me that most of the content is covered in the Trump presidency politicization efforts section of the VOA article, but also with relevant context, and this article appears to be within WP:BLP1E, which seems to encourage a redirect under these circumstances. I don't feel that I found persistent coverage of the event sufficient to overcome WP:BLP1E exclusion, especially due to the context in which it happened, as documented in the VOA article. If you have any insight or guidance on this issue to share, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 15:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
The significance of an event or the individual's role is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources, and to clarify my comment, I also have not found sources to show she is not WP:LOWPROFILE - she is now the White House Bureau Chief of a major American news organization, but that does not appear to have translated into actively seeking media attention for herself in the way described in the WP:LOWPROFILE explanatory supplement, or having done so previously, with the exception of a brief 2013 Washington Post profile I found and added to the article, which does not appear to be enough. If I had found sources that appear sufficient to support WP:JOURNALIST or WP:BASIC notability, these would have likely eliminated the WP:BLP1E concern of giving
undue weight to the event. From my view, this context and the overlap with the target article supports a redirect at this time. Beccaynr ( talk) 20:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
An editor may a number of questionable revisions just now. Starting with one - why delete material from the lede that comports with wp:lede? And adding twov-why make it difficult for the reader by deleting headings that refer to and separate to distinct incidents from a multi paragraph section? The assertion of NPOV as a basis is not convincing. In fact, for an experienced editor to make these claims, I'm confused as to what is going on. It's pretty egregious deleting going on. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:95FD:29F8:EB8A:7855 ( talk) 18:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first.The discussion above includes references to various policies and considerations related to WP:BLP policy, and this is even more important when information has continued to be added based on one news source about events related to a living person, particularly when it was framed by section headings that could highlight controversy, and if controvery is emphasized in the lead. For example, according to BLP policy,
Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 19:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Pay attention to headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements that might unduly favor one point of view or one aspect of the subject.Overall, this is a brief article, so a lead summarizing an already-brief article seems contrary to MOS:LEADELEMENTS, and an attempt to call further attention to what seems to be an insignificant event (covered by a brief burst of news without indication of enduring significance) in the lead, further seems WP:UNDUE and contrary to WP:BLP policy to avoid sensationalism.Whether this article should be redirected could be further discussed at Articles for Deletion, but perhaps two briefly-covered events without enduring significance and limited biographical coverage is sufficient for standalone article. Also, since my first comment in this section, I added information from a source that reported on the September 2023 incident, and another editor edited the lead to include a focus on the Pompeo incident. I think the recent lead edit is an improvement more aligned with NPOV policy than what I had removed, but at minimum I think it is not necessary based on the article size. Beccaynr ( talk) 18:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Gamaliel, Anachronist, Novem Linguae, and Fuzheado: it looks as if there is a lot of poorly-sourced contentious content being added to this article at a rapid pace, and more than I can handle. If you could review and assist, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 05:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Editing about, and discussing, the Arab-Israeli conflict, is limited to extended-confirmed users. Details can be found at
WP:A/I/PIA and
WP:ARBECR.
Edit requests are fine unless they are disruptive, but this isn't an edit request.
~ ToBeFree (
talk) 18:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
|
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Beccaynr has just made a series of deletions and additions to the last paragraph that are in my view without proper basis. Beccaynr deleted relevant information as to the precise criticisms stated by US politicians as to what she had done. And at the same time - curiously - expanded other sections of the paragraph to discuss what her colleague was criticized for, and what the VOA leadership had to say about the criticisms directed at her colleague. Neither make any sense to me. The first is relevant. The second is not her burden to bear, and her article should not be tarnished with it. The deletions are reflected here. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Patsy_Widakuswara&diff=1207601618&oldid=1207585689 2603:7000:2101:AA00:5878:D9D:5E2F:BDE3 ( talk) 07:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
should strive in good faith to provide complete information and not to promote one particular point of view over another.(emphasis added). Without the context emphasized by the available reliable sources, this article seems to promote a point-of-view as if the brief burst of criticism was directed only at Widakuswara, when the coverage of the incident from the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker (according to its About page is a news organization) and The Washington Post makes it clear that it was not. The WP:PROPORTION section of this policy also seems relevant to consider.I have started looking for whether there is significant or continuing coverage in high-quality independent and reliable secondary sources about Widakuswara's suggestion to Guensburg [2] (as reported by the Press Freedom Tracker) but so far have not found further support to help develop this contentious content in this biography of a living person, e.g. according to WP:BLPSTYLE and WP:BLPBALANCE. Beccaynr ( talk) 16:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
The idea expressed in Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographiesand without sourcing demonstrating an impact, e.g. on Widakuswara's career, or multiple independent and reliable secondary sources with a substantial/sustained focus on her, it seems more appropriate to workshop content and review sources at this talk page, and develop consensus about inclusion, given the contentious nature of this content.Also, from a general writing perspective, the narrative seemed clunky to me - there is no beginning/middle/end about Widakuswara similar to other paragraphs. There was criticism (and a call for firings) from senators, mostly related to the VOA guidelines; according to The Washington Post, VOA clarified that the guidelines are only guidelines. This seems to raise issues related to whether proportion of content emphasized about Widakuswara is appropriate. Beccaynr ( talk) 17:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
ToBeFree, I am pinging you because of your past explanation of how WP:A/I/PIA has applied to similar issues in another article; if you can review and provide an explanation here, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 17:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi Gamaliel, I am writing to follow up on your restoration of this article after I redirected it to Voice of America, and I am wondering if you could explain your reasoning. After my attempts to revise and expand the article, it appeared to me that most of the content is covered in the Trump presidency politicization efforts section of the VOA article, but also with relevant context, and this article appears to be within WP:BLP1E, which seems to encourage a redirect under these circumstances. I don't feel that I found persistent coverage of the event sufficient to overcome WP:BLP1E exclusion, especially due to the context in which it happened, as documented in the VOA article. If you have any insight or guidance on this issue to share, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 15:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
The significance of an event or the individual's role is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources, and to clarify my comment, I also have not found sources to show she is not WP:LOWPROFILE - she is now the White House Bureau Chief of a major American news organization, but that does not appear to have translated into actively seeking media attention for herself in the way described in the WP:LOWPROFILE explanatory supplement, or having done so previously, with the exception of a brief 2013 Washington Post profile I found and added to the article, which does not appear to be enough. If I had found sources that appear sufficient to support WP:JOURNALIST or WP:BASIC notability, these would have likely eliminated the WP:BLP1E concern of giving
undue weight to the event. From my view, this context and the overlap with the target article supports a redirect at this time. Beccaynr ( talk) 20:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
An editor may a number of questionable revisions just now. Starting with one - why delete material from the lede that comports with wp:lede? And adding twov-why make it difficult for the reader by deleting headings that refer to and separate to distinct incidents from a multi paragraph section? The assertion of NPOV as a basis is not convincing. In fact, for an experienced editor to make these claims, I'm confused as to what is going on. It's pretty egregious deleting going on. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:95FD:29F8:EB8A:7855 ( talk) 18:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first.The discussion above includes references to various policies and considerations related to WP:BLP policy, and this is even more important when information has continued to be added based on one news source about events related to a living person, particularly when it was framed by section headings that could highlight controversy, and if controvery is emphasized in the lead. For example, according to BLP policy,
Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 19:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Pay attention to headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements that might unduly favor one point of view or one aspect of the subject.Overall, this is a brief article, so a lead summarizing an already-brief article seems contrary to MOS:LEADELEMENTS, and an attempt to call further attention to what seems to be an insignificant event (covered by a brief burst of news without indication of enduring significance) in the lead, further seems WP:UNDUE and contrary to WP:BLP policy to avoid sensationalism.Whether this article should be redirected could be further discussed at Articles for Deletion, but perhaps two briefly-covered events without enduring significance and limited biographical coverage is sufficient for standalone article. Also, since my first comment in this section, I added information from a source that reported on the September 2023 incident, and another editor edited the lead to include a focus on the Pompeo incident. I think the recent lead edit is an improvement more aligned with NPOV policy than what I had removed, but at minimum I think it is not necessary based on the article size. Beccaynr ( talk) 18:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Gamaliel, Anachronist, Novem Linguae, and Fuzheado: it looks as if there is a lot of poorly-sourced contentious content being added to this article at a rapid pace, and more than I can handle. If you could review and assist, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 05:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Editing about, and discussing, the Arab-Israeli conflict, is limited to extended-confirmed users. Details can be found at
WP:A/I/PIA and
WP:ARBECR.
Edit requests are fine unless they are disruptive, but this isn't an edit request.
~ ToBeFree (
talk) 18:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
|
---|
Beccaynr has just made a series of deletions and additions to the last paragraph that are in my view without proper basis. Beccaynr deleted relevant information as to the precise criticisms stated by US politicians as to what she had done. And at the same time - curiously - expanded other sections of the paragraph to discuss what her colleague was criticized for, and what the VOA leadership had to say about the criticisms directed at her colleague. Neither make any sense to me. The first is relevant. The second is not her burden to bear, and her article should not be tarnished with it. The deletions are reflected here. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Patsy_Widakuswara&diff=1207601618&oldid=1207585689 2603:7000:2101:AA00:5878:D9D:5E2F:BDE3 ( talk) 07:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
should strive in good faith to provide complete information and not to promote one particular point of view over another.(emphasis added). Without the context emphasized by the available reliable sources, this article seems to promote a point-of-view as if the brief burst of criticism was directed only at Widakuswara, when the coverage of the incident from the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker (according to its About page is a news organization) and The Washington Post makes it clear that it was not. The WP:PROPORTION section of this policy also seems relevant to consider.I have started looking for whether there is significant or continuing coverage in high-quality independent and reliable secondary sources about Widakuswara's suggestion to Guensburg [2] (as reported by the Press Freedom Tracker) but so far have not found further support to help develop this contentious content in this biography of a living person, e.g. according to WP:BLPSTYLE and WP:BLPBALANCE. Beccaynr ( talk) 16:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
The idea expressed in Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographiesand without sourcing demonstrating an impact, e.g. on Widakuswara's career, or multiple independent and reliable secondary sources with a substantial/sustained focus on her, it seems more appropriate to workshop content and review sources at this talk page, and develop consensus about inclusion, given the contentious nature of this content.Also, from a general writing perspective, the narrative seemed clunky to me - there is no beginning/middle/end about Widakuswara similar to other paragraphs. There was criticism (and a call for firings) from senators, mostly related to the VOA guidelines; according to The Washington Post, VOA clarified that the guidelines are only guidelines. This seems to raise issues related to whether proportion of content emphasized about Widakuswara is appropriate. Beccaynr ( talk) 17:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
ToBeFree, I am pinging you because of your past explanation of how WP:A/I/PIA has applied to similar issues in another article; if you can review and provide an explanation here, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 17:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)