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We use the imperfect in some single cases, like the verb "to be" (sei). It's possible to say "ich war", you don't always say "ich bin gewässd".-- 62.203.179.34 ( talk) 19:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The wording here is not really clear. Can we say instead that "..neither the genitive case nor the imperfect tense are used"? I would copy edit this myself but I am not sure that this is the intended meaning. But if it is then let's say that. Thanks, Dave ( djkernen)| Talk to me| Please help! 14:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I hope my edit from this morning didn't make the problem worse; I encountered something that was really unclear and reworded it to clarify. That sentence originally read Something all Palatine dialects have in common is that the genitive isn't used, same as the German imperfect except for words such as soi (to be) and wolle (to want). As I am neither a speaker of German (Palatinate or otherwise) nor a linguist, I may have changed the meaning to something that is incorrect. Horologium (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your edits are the reason I reread that section, and while I appreciate that you were trying to make it clearer (and you did) in that one phrase I was still confused. Both the before-your-edit and after-your-edit versions led me to the same question. Upon rereading my proposed "fix" I see that it is not really good either, because the imperfect is used, but in a limited way. I think I understand what we're trying to say here but a naive researcher might not know what we are saying. Maybe the genitive, like the imperfect, is used with soi and wolle? Or maybe the Standard German imperative also does not use the genitive? (But neither of those make sense.) I guess that what I'm suggesting is that your edits were not "bold" enough and the sentence needs to be reexamined and rewritten. But like you, I am not a subject matter expert (and perhaps to a SME this sentence makes perfect sense already). I am hesitant to boldly rewrite without knowing for sure the intended meaning, which, I think, is along the lines of
Dave ( djkernen)| Talk to me| Please help! 16:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)Something all Palatine dialects have in common is that the genitive isn't used. Similarly, the German imperfect is likewise not used, except for words such as soi (to be) and wolle (to want).
- Your edits are the reason I reread that section, and while I appreciate that you were trying to make it clearer (and you did) in that one phrase I was still confused. Both the before-your-edit and after-your-edit versions led me to the same question. Upon rereading my proposed "fix" I see that it is not really good either, because the imperfect is used, but in a limited way. I think I understand what we're trying to say here but a naive researcher might not know what we are saying. Maybe the genitive, like the imperfect, is used with soi and wolle? Or maybe the Standard German imperative also does not use the genitive? (But neither of those make sense.) I guess that what I'm suggesting is that your edits were not "bold" enough and the sentence needs to be reexamined and rewritten. But like you, I am not a subject matter expert (and perhaps to a SME this sentence makes perfect sense already). I am hesitant to boldly rewrite without knowing for sure the intended meaning, which, I think, is along the lines of
If the language is called Palatine German in the text, shouldn't the page be entitled that way, and not Palatinate German? To me, not being a native speaker of English but living merely 30 km from Palatinate, it seems a bit odd to call the language palatine and not palatinate, but my google search convinced me that seemingly palatine is considered the adjective form of the noun Palatinate, as well as the name of a person having roots in Palatinate. OK to me... -- ThomasPusch ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Palatine German apparently doesn't exist. [[Peter Wiesinger]]: ''Phonetisch-phonologische Untersuchungen zur Vokalentwicklung in den deutschen Dialekten.'' volume 2. Walter de Gruyter, Berlin 1970 (Studia Linguistica Germanica 2).p. 322 only has Rhine Fracnonian, merely three of its seven divisions not ending on pfälzisch (Palatinate): Nordpfälzisch (North Palatinate), ostpfälzisch (East Palatinate) and Westpfälzisch (West Palatinate). Sarcelles ( talk) 20:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- It does. Wiesinger is not the only extant source for these matters. The fest/fescht-line is a firmly established border to separate Pälzisch from South Hessian within Rhine Franconian. And not only in "traditional" dialectology. For a recent source, check Sprache und Raum, vol. 4, ch. 15 "Rheinfränkisch" (
https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110261295-015). Cheers. –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- Is it coextensive with [[Rhenish Franconian]]?
Sarcelles (
talk) 09:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Based on Wiesinger's work, there has been a major redefinition of the scope of Rhine Franconian, but not to the extent that Pfälzisch has become coextensive with Rheinfränkisch. In traditional German dialectology, Rheinfränkisch included the various Pfälzisch subvarieties, "Hessisch" (then divided into North, East, Central and South Hessian) and Lothringisch (= Rhine Franconian dialects spoken in Lorraine). Then and now, Pfälzisch is defined within Rheinfränkisch by the fest/fescht isogloss to the northeast (separating it from Hessian) and the Eis/Iis isogloss to the south (separating it from Lothringisch). The two other defining isoglosses (which delineate Rheinfränkisch as a whole) are the Appel/Apfel isogloss to the east and the dat/das isogloss to the northwest. The major revision of Rhine Franconian by Wiesinger is about "Hessian": he restricts the term "Hessian" to traditional North/East/Central Hessian and splits these out from Rhine Franconian as a primary division of West Central German. The dialect area traditionally called "South Hessian" is relabeled as "North Rhine Franconian" (Nordrheinfränkisch).
- So "Palatine German" ≠ "Rhenish Franconian", but rather "Palatine German" is a strict subset of "Rhenish Franconian" next to Lorraine Rhine Franconian and South Hessian—as a native speaker of the latter, I stick to traditional terminology (of course fully aware about the actual classification).
- Here's a WP library link to the "Rheinfränkisch" chapter by Herrgen und Vorberger which describes the basilectal isoglosses that are commonly used in the broad and narrow subclassification of the Rhine Franconian dialect area.
- By the way, Pfälzisch is not only established within dialectology, but it is also sociolinguistic reality. With a few exceptions (especially speakers of Saarland and Odenwald varieties), speakers of Pfälzisch as defined by dialectologists identify their basilect or mesolect variety as Pfälzisch. – Austronesier ( talk) 11:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Is it coextensive with [[Rhenish Franconian]]?
Sarcelles (
talk) 09:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
In the endonym and side box section, it is listed as Pälzisch, but elsewhere in the article and in other sources, it is Pfälzisch. Which is it? 2A02:C7C:90E7:3500:4B5:6CF6:49CE:5DDA ( talk) 15:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Pfälzisch dialekt varies widely from one area of the state to the other, and even from village to village. In the area of Landstuhl, it is pronounced "Pfälzisch," with other areas solely using the "P". However, it should be standardized throughout the article, with the different variants listed in the introduction, and not just randomly used throughout.
It's me... Sallicio!
03:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- Pälzisch is the regional pronunciation in all those Rhine Fraconian varieties that are commonly called "Pfälzisch" (Palatine German) in German dialectology. Varieties with an affricate /pf/ are not included in Pfälzisch, regardless of their geographical location. All instances where Pfälzisch (including compounds) is used in the article are in Standard German. That's confusing but can be easily fixed by adding the Standard German name with explicit tagging to the lede. – Austronesier ( talk) 09:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Pfälzisch dialekt varies widely from one area of the state to the other, and even from village to village. In the area of Landstuhl, it is pronounced "Pfälzisch," with other areas solely using the "P". However, it should be standardized throughout the article, with the different variants listed in the introduction, and not just randomly used throughout.
It's me... Sallicio!
03:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
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We use the imperfect in some single cases, like the verb "to be" (sei). It's possible to say "ich war", you don't always say "ich bin gewässd".-- 62.203.179.34 ( talk) 19:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The wording here is not really clear. Can we say instead that "..neither the genitive case nor the imperfect tense are used"? I would copy edit this myself but I am not sure that this is the intended meaning. But if it is then let's say that. Thanks, Dave ( djkernen)| Talk to me| Please help! 14:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I hope my edit from this morning didn't make the problem worse; I encountered something that was really unclear and reworded it to clarify. That sentence originally read Something all Palatine dialects have in common is that the genitive isn't used, same as the German imperfect except for words such as soi (to be) and wolle (to want). As I am neither a speaker of German (Palatinate or otherwise) nor a linguist, I may have changed the meaning to something that is incorrect. Horologium (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your edits are the reason I reread that section, and while I appreciate that you were trying to make it clearer (and you did) in that one phrase I was still confused. Both the before-your-edit and after-your-edit versions led me to the same question. Upon rereading my proposed "fix" I see that it is not really good either, because the imperfect is used, but in a limited way. I think I understand what we're trying to say here but a naive researcher might not know what we are saying. Maybe the genitive, like the imperfect, is used with soi and wolle? Or maybe the Standard German imperative also does not use the genitive? (But neither of those make sense.) I guess that what I'm suggesting is that your edits were not "bold" enough and the sentence needs to be reexamined and rewritten. But like you, I am not a subject matter expert (and perhaps to a SME this sentence makes perfect sense already). I am hesitant to boldly rewrite without knowing for sure the intended meaning, which, I think, is along the lines of
Dave ( djkernen)| Talk to me| Please help! 16:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)Something all Palatine dialects have in common is that the genitive isn't used. Similarly, the German imperfect is likewise not used, except for words such as soi (to be) and wolle (to want).
- Your edits are the reason I reread that section, and while I appreciate that you were trying to make it clearer (and you did) in that one phrase I was still confused. Both the before-your-edit and after-your-edit versions led me to the same question. Upon rereading my proposed "fix" I see that it is not really good either, because the imperfect is used, but in a limited way. I think I understand what we're trying to say here but a naive researcher might not know what we are saying. Maybe the genitive, like the imperfect, is used with soi and wolle? Or maybe the Standard German imperative also does not use the genitive? (But neither of those make sense.) I guess that what I'm suggesting is that your edits were not "bold" enough and the sentence needs to be reexamined and rewritten. But like you, I am not a subject matter expert (and perhaps to a SME this sentence makes perfect sense already). I am hesitant to boldly rewrite without knowing for sure the intended meaning, which, I think, is along the lines of
If the language is called Palatine German in the text, shouldn't the page be entitled that way, and not Palatinate German? To me, not being a native speaker of English but living merely 30 km from Palatinate, it seems a bit odd to call the language palatine and not palatinate, but my google search convinced me that seemingly palatine is considered the adjective form of the noun Palatinate, as well as the name of a person having roots in Palatinate. OK to me... -- ThomasPusch ( talk) 21:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Palatine German apparently doesn't exist. [[Peter Wiesinger]]: ''Phonetisch-phonologische Untersuchungen zur Vokalentwicklung in den deutschen Dialekten.'' volume 2. Walter de Gruyter, Berlin 1970 (Studia Linguistica Germanica 2).p. 322 only has Rhine Fracnonian, merely three of its seven divisions not ending on pfälzisch (Palatinate): Nordpfälzisch (North Palatinate), ostpfälzisch (East Palatinate) and Westpfälzisch (West Palatinate). Sarcelles ( talk) 20:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- It does. Wiesinger is not the only extant source for these matters. The fest/fescht-line is a firmly established border to separate Pälzisch from South Hessian within Rhine Franconian. And not only in "traditional" dialectology. For a recent source, check Sprache und Raum, vol. 4, ch. 15 "Rheinfränkisch" (
https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110261295-015). Cheers. –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- Is it coextensive with [[Rhenish Franconian]]?
Sarcelles (
talk) 09:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Based on Wiesinger's work, there has been a major redefinition of the scope of Rhine Franconian, but not to the extent that Pfälzisch has become coextensive with Rheinfränkisch. In traditional German dialectology, Rheinfränkisch included the various Pfälzisch subvarieties, "Hessisch" (then divided into North, East, Central and South Hessian) and Lothringisch (= Rhine Franconian dialects spoken in Lorraine). Then and now, Pfälzisch is defined within Rheinfränkisch by the fest/fescht isogloss to the northeast (separating it from Hessian) and the Eis/Iis isogloss to the south (separating it from Lothringisch). The two other defining isoglosses (which delineate Rheinfränkisch as a whole) are the Appel/Apfel isogloss to the east and the dat/das isogloss to the northwest. The major revision of Rhine Franconian by Wiesinger is about "Hessian": he restricts the term "Hessian" to traditional North/East/Central Hessian and splits these out from Rhine Franconian as a primary division of West Central German. The dialect area traditionally called "South Hessian" is relabeled as "North Rhine Franconian" (Nordrheinfränkisch).
- So "Palatine German" ≠ "Rhenish Franconian", but rather "Palatine German" is a strict subset of "Rhenish Franconian" next to Lorraine Rhine Franconian and South Hessian—as a native speaker of the latter, I stick to traditional terminology (of course fully aware about the actual classification).
- Here's a WP library link to the "Rheinfränkisch" chapter by Herrgen und Vorberger which describes the basilectal isoglosses that are commonly used in the broad and narrow subclassification of the Rhine Franconian dialect area.
- By the way, Pfälzisch is not only established within dialectology, but it is also sociolinguistic reality. With a few exceptions (especially speakers of Saarland and Odenwald varieties), speakers of Pfälzisch as defined by dialectologists identify their basilect or mesolect variety as Pfälzisch. – Austronesier ( talk) 11:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Is it coextensive with [[Rhenish Franconian]]?
Sarcelles (
talk) 09:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
In the endonym and side box section, it is listed as Pälzisch, but elsewhere in the article and in other sources, it is Pfälzisch. Which is it? 2A02:C7C:90E7:3500:4B5:6CF6:49CE:5DDA ( talk) 15:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Pfälzisch dialekt varies widely from one area of the state to the other, and even from village to village. In the area of Landstuhl, it is pronounced "Pfälzisch," with other areas solely using the "P". However, it should be standardized throughout the article, with the different variants listed in the introduction, and not just randomly used throughout.
It's me... Sallicio!
03:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- Pälzisch is the regional pronunciation in all those Rhine Fraconian varieties that are commonly called "Pfälzisch" (Palatine German) in German dialectology. Varieties with an affricate /pf/ are not included in Pfälzisch, regardless of their geographical location. All instances where Pfälzisch (including compounds) is used in the article are in Standard German. That's confusing but can be easily fixed by adding the Standard German name with explicit tagging to the lede. – Austronesier ( talk) 09:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Pfälzisch dialekt varies widely from one area of the state to the other, and even from village to village. In the area of Landstuhl, it is pronounced "Pfälzisch," with other areas solely using the "P". However, it should be standardized throughout the article, with the different variants listed in the introduction, and not just randomly used throughout.
It's me... Sallicio!
03:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)