It was my belief that paddy wagon was used in a derogative fashion with regards to the prisoners inside the wagon.
I question the accuracy of this article... is it truly an ethnic slur against Irish people to refer to a prisoner transport vehicle as a paddywagon? -- Dante Alighieri 11:02 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
No country mentioned, therefore presumably refers to usage in the only one that matters. jimfbleak 11:13 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The term is accurate, and I believe it's current (though rare) in Canada and parts of the US. I believe it's as likely to derive from the fact that most cops were Irish, rather than most prisoners.
DJ Clayworth 21:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I always thought that it refered to the fact that the inside walls would (logically) be padded. cuiusquemodi 04:26, 11 Aug. 2004 (UTC)
I understand your "logic", but it is incorrect. I drove a paddy wagon in the 1970s and the prisoner compartment was totally lined with stainless steel; floor, molded in seats, walls and ceilings. There was nothing to hold on to and absolutely NO padding. This design kept prisoners from refusing to be removed from the wagon at the jail and also made it easy to hose out when drunks vomited inside the wagon or otherwise soiled it.
Paddy is the nickname for Patty or Patrick, a fairly common name for men of Irish descent. But, early paddy wagons were horse drawn and were frequently marked P. D. for "Police Department". When spoken, P D Wagon can sound like paddy wagon. I believe the name became associated with the Irish possibly during the 1863 New York Draft riots and/or during the time when the majority of NYC police officers were of Irish descent. In no way was it a derogatory or racist term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susu46 ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
This article was listed on Votes for Deletion. Kept as there was no consensus to delete. Here is the archived debate:
Thomas Sowell, political writer, cannot be relied upon for a true citation in this article The article should stick to the true source of the term, used by the Mafia to refer to police cars. 86.42.141.219 22:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The term paddy wagon long predates Italian immigration into the USA. So, whatever the Mafia called them is irrelevant to the origin of the name. Also, Thomas Sowell is far more than a "political" writer. He is a highly respected American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susu46 ( talk • contribs) 00:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
The exact quote, on page 69 of the 1983 edition of the book (ISBN 0-688-04832-3), is "Police vans became known as paddy wagons because the prisoners in them were so often Irish." I am curious as to my alleged motivation for fabricating this citation from the whole cloth. Am I in the pay of mad anti-Irish bigots? Please, do enlighten me as to why I would bother lying about this.
My personal opinion -- which, being opinion, is not suitable for inclusion in the article proper -- is that BOTH etymologies are accurate, and reflect the transition of Irish Americans from the lowest rungs of society to one of the most successful immigrant groups. Denying turn of the century racism against the Irish is utter folly; they were one of the most despised and downtrodden ethnic groups of the time. (This was partially due to anti-Catholic racism in general, and partially due to perceptions of the Irish as drunken and violent in particular.)
(BTW, claiming that a "political writer" is automatically an invalid source is pretty specious, and would remove vast swathes of citations from Wikipedia. The book in question is a statistic and fact dense tome discussing many different ethnic groups and how they responded to racism in America and elsewhere. I came on the paddywagon article while researching the term 'Black Mariah', saw the etymology given, remembered a different one, tracked down the source, and posted it as an alternate explanation. I *thought* that was the guiding principle behind Wikipedia -- the individual tidbits of knowledge of thousands of individuals coming together to form a reference superior to that created by a few. I was unaware that facts which some people don't like needed to be dropped down the memory hole. Must have missed than in the FAQ. It is certainly possible Sowell is wrong and quoting an urban legend -- if so, if THAT can be verified, then the legend and it's debunking ought to be in the article. Simply denying that there may be a racist or pejorative origin for the term is not productive, unless one simply wishes to deny racism ever existed in America. Good luck with that.)
-- Lizard sf 04:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you're utterly unfamiliar with Sowell's work, you could check the Wikipedia entry on him. :) And you're correct. The issue is not whether or not the Irish were all drunken reprobates; the issue is that they were commonly *believed* to be, and that his belief led to the etymology of 'paddywagon' at least arguably deriving from the people in the back, not the front. Folk etymologies are tricky things to verify. -- Lizard sf 17:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that WP is not about anyone's opinion. I have now (wasted a lot of time) done a fair amount of research and there is clearly no consensus or firm authority about the origin of the term. Slang terms are notoriously difficult to source in any event, and I'm not sure how you could ever really get a definitive answer - unless you somehow resurrect the first person who ever used the phrase. There are three prevailing and sourced theories that should be included if we are going to have this article.-- Qball6 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I first heard it from an Italian guy while growing up in South Boston. Considered EXTREMELY racist in some parts of the worl...just like calling a Mexican a Wetback.
Irishgt 06:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to throw in other alternative suggestions and muck everything up, but two other obvious roots exist: that "paddy" is short for either padlock (used to lock the back of the wagon) or, more likely... patrol (wagon). Clearly the other possibilities remain strong. Tinydr ( talk) 17:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
We need pictures of some Paddywagons
I can get some of Irish police vans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.176.160 ( talk • contribs)
I don't where to correctly add this note but ... When I was growing up in Sydney, NSW in the 1960s, "paddywagon" always referred to the police ute (as pictured on this page) but the "Black Maria" was a much larger vehicle (like a small pantech) which transported prisoners in bulk from jail to the courts and back to jail or remand. It was a very dark blue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.204.185 ( talk) 06:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
It was my belief that paddy wagon was used in a derogative fashion with regards to the prisoners inside the wagon.
I question the accuracy of this article... is it truly an ethnic slur against Irish people to refer to a prisoner transport vehicle as a paddywagon? -- Dante Alighieri 11:02 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
No country mentioned, therefore presumably refers to usage in the only one that matters. jimfbleak 11:13 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The term is accurate, and I believe it's current (though rare) in Canada and parts of the US. I believe it's as likely to derive from the fact that most cops were Irish, rather than most prisoners.
DJ Clayworth 21:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I always thought that it refered to the fact that the inside walls would (logically) be padded. cuiusquemodi 04:26, 11 Aug. 2004 (UTC)
I understand your "logic", but it is incorrect. I drove a paddy wagon in the 1970s and the prisoner compartment was totally lined with stainless steel; floor, molded in seats, walls and ceilings. There was nothing to hold on to and absolutely NO padding. This design kept prisoners from refusing to be removed from the wagon at the jail and also made it easy to hose out when drunks vomited inside the wagon or otherwise soiled it.
Paddy is the nickname for Patty or Patrick, a fairly common name for men of Irish descent. But, early paddy wagons were horse drawn and were frequently marked P. D. for "Police Department". When spoken, P D Wagon can sound like paddy wagon. I believe the name became associated with the Irish possibly during the 1863 New York Draft riots and/or during the time when the majority of NYC police officers were of Irish descent. In no way was it a derogatory or racist term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susu46 ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
This article was listed on Votes for Deletion. Kept as there was no consensus to delete. Here is the archived debate:
Thomas Sowell, political writer, cannot be relied upon for a true citation in this article The article should stick to the true source of the term, used by the Mafia to refer to police cars. 86.42.141.219 22:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The term paddy wagon long predates Italian immigration into the USA. So, whatever the Mafia called them is irrelevant to the origin of the name. Also, Thomas Sowell is far more than a "political" writer. He is a highly respected American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susu46 ( talk • contribs) 00:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
The exact quote, on page 69 of the 1983 edition of the book (ISBN 0-688-04832-3), is "Police vans became known as paddy wagons because the prisoners in them were so often Irish." I am curious as to my alleged motivation for fabricating this citation from the whole cloth. Am I in the pay of mad anti-Irish bigots? Please, do enlighten me as to why I would bother lying about this.
My personal opinion -- which, being opinion, is not suitable for inclusion in the article proper -- is that BOTH etymologies are accurate, and reflect the transition of Irish Americans from the lowest rungs of society to one of the most successful immigrant groups. Denying turn of the century racism against the Irish is utter folly; they were one of the most despised and downtrodden ethnic groups of the time. (This was partially due to anti-Catholic racism in general, and partially due to perceptions of the Irish as drunken and violent in particular.)
(BTW, claiming that a "political writer" is automatically an invalid source is pretty specious, and would remove vast swathes of citations from Wikipedia. The book in question is a statistic and fact dense tome discussing many different ethnic groups and how they responded to racism in America and elsewhere. I came on the paddywagon article while researching the term 'Black Mariah', saw the etymology given, remembered a different one, tracked down the source, and posted it as an alternate explanation. I *thought* that was the guiding principle behind Wikipedia -- the individual tidbits of knowledge of thousands of individuals coming together to form a reference superior to that created by a few. I was unaware that facts which some people don't like needed to be dropped down the memory hole. Must have missed than in the FAQ. It is certainly possible Sowell is wrong and quoting an urban legend -- if so, if THAT can be verified, then the legend and it's debunking ought to be in the article. Simply denying that there may be a racist or pejorative origin for the term is not productive, unless one simply wishes to deny racism ever existed in America. Good luck with that.)
-- Lizard sf 04:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you're utterly unfamiliar with Sowell's work, you could check the Wikipedia entry on him. :) And you're correct. The issue is not whether or not the Irish were all drunken reprobates; the issue is that they were commonly *believed* to be, and that his belief led to the etymology of 'paddywagon' at least arguably deriving from the people in the back, not the front. Folk etymologies are tricky things to verify. -- Lizard sf 17:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that WP is not about anyone's opinion. I have now (wasted a lot of time) done a fair amount of research and there is clearly no consensus or firm authority about the origin of the term. Slang terms are notoriously difficult to source in any event, and I'm not sure how you could ever really get a definitive answer - unless you somehow resurrect the first person who ever used the phrase. There are three prevailing and sourced theories that should be included if we are going to have this article.-- Qball6 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I first heard it from an Italian guy while growing up in South Boston. Considered EXTREMELY racist in some parts of the worl...just like calling a Mexican a Wetback.
Irishgt 06:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to throw in other alternative suggestions and muck everything up, but two other obvious roots exist: that "paddy" is short for either padlock (used to lock the back of the wagon) or, more likely... patrol (wagon). Clearly the other possibilities remain strong. Tinydr ( talk) 17:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
We need pictures of some Paddywagons
I can get some of Irish police vans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.176.160 ( talk • contribs)
I don't where to correctly add this note but ... When I was growing up in Sydney, NSW in the 1960s, "paddywagon" always referred to the police ute (as pictured on this page) but the "Black Maria" was a much larger vehicle (like a small pantech) which transported prisoners in bulk from jail to the courts and back to jail or remand. It was a very dark blue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.204.185 ( talk) 06:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)