This is an
archive of past discussions for the period 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Just a slightly pedantic point - The Origin of Species is not a scientific theory in that it has not been definitively proven (although its postulations do appear to be accurate). In a truly objective article, this should be edited to hypothesis. (The same is true of physical 'theories' such as Quantum theory and the theory of relativity. Articles to this effect have appeared in such scientific journals as the New Scientist over the past couple of months. Ck lostsword 17:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Very true. :D. Sorry for criticising TOS - I am strongly in support of evolution (having grown up with it, I cannot imagine any other way of thinking about it - I suppose I realise what Darwin was up against!). This is not an attack to the book or theory/hypothesis, merely an alternative way of thinking. When the NS article in question refers to evolution, it uses it as an example of a semi-provable theory (in my terminology), and is actually used as the argument by ID for the use of the word 'theory.' The NS article can be found at [[ [1]]]
Even for the non-specialist the book was quite readable (as it still is), and it attracted widespread interest. Although the ideas presented in it are supported by overwhelming scientific evidence"
this is not true. remove it. this is a biased opinion. The tone of the article is also biased. It avoids direct confrontation of the evidence, declares the opposition uneducated, and finds solace in name calling. It's not politically correct to question evolution now. To do so risks ridicule and being seen in the eyes of their peers as foolish and uneducated, when previously they were thought to be brilliant. The basic idea is " if you dont believe this, then your dumb and were not talking with you." The theory of evolution is the result of men wanting to rid themselves of what they saw as the bondage of religion, but until Evolution, there was no rational or intelligent alternative. To rid the feeling of guilt and justify their own lusts and desires, they needed something to justify a disbelief in God, because lets face it not believing in God simply because you don't want to doesn't cut it, with evolution one can hide behind the illusion of materialism and naturalism, seemingly rational, is in the embrace of evolution. It is widely accepted today, not so much because of evidence, but as hostory shows, controversy. Controversy is what made it so popular along with tactful use of humorously misleading remarks and name calling of all those who believe in God to be ignorant and uneducated. Closing one's mind off of a possibility doesn't mean the evidence isnt there. You aren't looking for it, therefore you wont find it. If you do find it, you must dismiss it because it doesn't fit into your preception of reality. Evolution can't leave room for free thinking and open mindedness. It is stricter and more dogmatic than religion and is potentially more dangerous if taken more literal. There are many difficulties in Evolution that are bigger problems then evolutionists are willing to admit, because human beings try to avoid anything which causes cognitive dissonance. Following detrimental issues that are a blow to the theory of evolution and are at least worth looking into are the following:
The fossil record: the sudden appearance of complex life forms and lack of transitional forms. The problem of life coming from nonlife the problem of complexity arising out of simplicity without the aid of intelligent intervention the immense amount of information encoded into the DNA The lack of true mutations that are beneficial to an organism's survival The limits to the amount of change possible within a species
Those are just a few. Now let's be real with ourselves, clear you mind of the emotional backlash you would want to throw at me and consider, just for a moment, that maybe you haven't objectively studied this. I mean why believe in a theory, which relies on the universe creating itself from nothing, randomly, a claim that can't be tested or observed, take convienient "accidents" that just so happened to manage to create life which decided that it would evolve, note that the evolving would have to go without the death of the creature doing the evolving (which in the real world it is observed that it's very unlikely if not impossible), and eventually we arrive at todays world where we are still "evolving", is asking us to take a larger leap of blind faith, and that could only happen in specific and perfectly controlled environments, which requires intelligent intervention, but that these states just happened by chance is completely ludicrous. The article should just state what evolution is, what it teaches, and what its core beliefs are. That's it. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for propaganda.
What are these "favored races" Darwin talks about? Seems pretty racist to me. I tend to dislike acts of racism.
The following section from the lead
In it, Darwin makes "one long argument" for his theory that "groups" of organisms, (now called populations) rather than individual organisms, gradually evolve through the process of natural selection—a mechanism effectively introduced to the public at large by the book.
seems to suggest Darwin favoured group selectionism. Is this accurate? From what I remember of the Origin, Darwin always seemed to favour individual organisms as the units of selection. I might be wrong tho... Mikker ... 10:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The links under each section that go to main articles (such as history of evolutionary thought) are not capitalized properly. I tried correcting this capitalization, but this caused the link to no longer link to an existing article. I am rather new to this, so if someone could either tell me how to correct this or correct it for me, I would be eternally grateful. Thanks. Makeemlighter 20:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: On Wallace's own first edition of The Origin of Species, he crossed out every instance of the phrase "natural selection" and replaced with it Spencer's "survival of the fittest." Since Spencer did not introduce his phrase until 1864, Wallace could not have made this emendation until five years after the book's publication, a delay not hinted at in the current description. -- Blainster 21:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Should we not put someting to the effect that the Darwins theories were widely accepted by 1900 among the general public and the church. Although ther was indeed controversy at the time I think the work was well established as the orthodoxy in 1900. The controversy may be overemphasised in the light of some recent moves in America from a minority seeking to resurrect the 'young earth' theory, and who get attention due to their sheer lunacy of argument.
The Good article nomination for On the Origin of Species/Archive 2 has failed for the following reason:
I will nominate this article as an uncited good article because I think that it is well written and informative.
-- The Talking Sock talk contribs 15:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Fastsission & Dave, I appreciate the discussions regarding the contributions to The Origin of Species. Fastfission, you stated that my efforts to present statements with a more neutral point of view would be “a waste of my time”. Well, after reading all the past discussions, posts, edits, & reverts on this subject, I have concluded that you are absolutley correct. Your extreme bias in this subject makes it a waste of time to discuss. It also makes it a waste of time to attempt to improve the article when neither of you are interested in NPOV.
It appears that you both have an agenda to promote this theory as scientific law. It also appears that allowing biased comments are fine as long as they agree with your opinion. Thanks for your time. I will no longer attempt to contribute to this subject. Erich, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Fastfission, I do understand the scientific definition of theory. Don't get me wrong, evolution is a good theory. However, it is a flawed theory and therefore can/will never be proven. As far as NPOV; the paragraph in question would be changed immediately if it were in some other (non-controversial) subject. The current wording is an obvious attempt to promote a specific opinion. I do thank you for presenting some options. However, as I said, after reading all the discussion on this subject, it does seem like a waste of time. Finally, you chose to participate in the "edit war". Couldn't you "talked" about it instead of reverting the edit? BTW, I have appreciated your pleasant attitude during our correspondence. Thank you,-- Erich168 19:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hope it's helpful - I've reworded the offending paragraph a little, which I hope leaves both sides with some dignity? - Ballista 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is about the book but the para 3 in the into states, ..."Although its ideas are supported by an overwhelming body of scientific evidence and are widely accepted by scientists today, they are still highly controversial in some parts of the world, particularly among American non-scientists who perceive them to contradict various religious texts (see Creation-evolution controversy).". and I feel that this is not relevant to the book. The so-called Creation-evolution controversy is more focused on modern evolution theory not Darwins book. There is also the obvious anachronism as the issue is American non-scientists (people ?) today whereas America wasn't a coherent country as it was fighting a civil war around the time this book was published. I think the people had more to worry about then. Unless the Creation-evolution controversy is predominantly about Darwins book then it is being given undue weight and thus the existing link further into the article to the Creation-evolution controversy will suffice. I vote it's culled. Ttiotsw 03:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Added reviews with links to three contemporary reviews and a links to Victorian Science texts.
DLH 00:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If by creationism you mean those who use the account in Genesis, Genesis 30:37-43 describes in detail how Jacob's and Laban's goats mutated. Please do not reintroduce "which were immutable" unless you can cite a source that shows the clear reading of Genesis 30:37-43 does not decribe mutations in goats.
Please consider removing from the article: "Today, the overwhelming majority of scientists in the fields of earth and life sciences (over 99.9%) consider Darwin's theory correct." [2]
The citation does not say this. It says that "This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism." Creationism and Darwinism are not the only two/mutually exclusive theories on the origin of species. Accordingly, since this an article on the origin of species, and not creationism, I will be removing the quote.-- 170.215.45.95 00:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous poet
Well I've never met a biological scientist who doesn't, and I've met hundreds. -- Michael Johnson 02:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.
Does this information contain any relevance? I mean, not all respected scientists have any considerable knowledge of this particular field. Darth Viller ( talk) 13:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we add a political and philosophical influences section, or should this be included in the public reaction. For example, Ernst Lehmann, a Darwinist/botanist, characterized National Socialism as "politically applied biology." (Wege und Ziele biologischer Arbeit im neuen Reich, München, 1934, pp. 10-11). Also, the book "From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany" (ISBN: 140397201X) links Darwinism to Hitler's political policies. If how non-scientists in general react to Darwin's theory is of some import, adding a section on how it philosophically influenced Powerful world leaders like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao seems of greater import.
170.215.45.95 00:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous Poet
No because that has nothing to do with Darwin and the Origin of Species. To link the rise of Hitler to Darwin is a bit like linking the rise of Hitler to the motor car, because Hitler supported the development of the Volkswagen and Autobahns. How people mis-apply science in a socialogical context has nohting to do with the science, but everything to do with those people. -- Michael Johnson 01:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
So what is the point? You can't "apply" a theory to a problem it does not apply to. The book "Origin of the Species" which is the subject of the article does not mention human beings. If your "powerful and educated men" are applying something they read in OOTS to human race relations, they are sadly misled. Go write something in their biographies, if you think it important. It has nothing to do with Darwin or this book. -- Michael Johnson 01:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Fact is, Stalin persercuted evolutionary biologists because he tried to impose his own crackpot theory, just as the religious fundalmentalists are trying to impose their own crackpot theory. This resulted in the deaths of millions in the Soviet Union via starvation. Lets hope the christian crackpots don't get power in the west as their cousins the islamic crackpots are doing in the east. -- Michael Johnson 01:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Well that is simply not true. You really need to read up on Stalin some more. And now we have guilt by association for athiests. Stalin was an athiest therefore athiests are like Stalin? -- Michael Johnson 02:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
OK so you have a sense of humour... Actually I don't think anybody is even watching. Anyway we are getting way off topic, which is that whatever Hitler, Stalin, or Fred Bloggs at 41 Spring St. think, it has nothing to do with OOTS. -- Michael Johnson 04:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"a significant proportion of non-scientists in the United States and a few other countries disagree mainly on religious grounds"
Please keep "mainly on religious grounds" out, or cite a poll to justify the claim.
As one well-known counter-example, Ann Coulter is a non-scientist, and she enumerates many problems with Darwin's The Origin of Species that are not based on religious grounds (see "Godless: The Church of Liberalism", ISBN: 1400054206, which argues that to accept Darwin's theory requires acts of faith and belief in miracles, as part of her argument that modern secular humanistic liberalism is itself a religion.) As another example, see "Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing" (ISBN: 1932236317) They are based on philosophical, scientific, and logical grounds.
I could name other non-scientists who base their opposition to Darwin's theory on the Origin of Species on non-religious grounds. That a majority of them might be religious does not prima facie demonstrate their logic, opposition, or skepticism is based on religious grounds. You might argue that they are wrong, are relying on faulty logic, are ignorant, and conclude that since they are religious they are actually forming their opposition on religious grounds, but this argument is itself a fallacy. They could simply be wrong and religious. (Or they could be right, who am I to know?)
Citing a source that simply asserts "Most of those who reject evolution do so because of personal religious conviction, not because of evidence" does not make it so. Assertions are cheap, especially on the Internet. Cite a poll that asks those non-scientists who do not completely accept Darwin's theory why they do so, or keep your speculation out of the article. --- Vacuous Poet
Belief system | Creationist view | Theistic evolution | Naturalistic Evolution |
---|---|---|---|
Everyone | 44% | 39% | 10% |
Scientists | 5% | 40% | 55% |
Note the Everyone is the non-scientists and it clearly shows a bias towards either Classic creation or god-of-gaps style evolution. Ann Coulter's Wikipedia article has her as not being "impartial or balanced". The Origin of the Species came out over a hundred and fifty years ago and to date has survived. I do not think Ann Coulter's efforts are comparable and it would add undue weight to her apologetic to use it to revert text. It is also illogical to have a non-scientist refute Evolution as the non-scientist efforts would not be peer reviewed. Ttiotsw 02:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading Ann Coulters bio it seems she has pretty strong religious beliefs. It wouldbe pretty difficult to seperate these from her arguments on evolution. For a scientist who is also a thiest and a strong supporter of evolution see John Polkinghorne. -- Michael Johnson 08:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Context:
The quotation marks and sentence in which it occurs implies that this was the objective. Did Darwin use the term "created kinds" in the book? Did he explicitly say that he was tryint to refute it? 170.215.45.95 19:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous Poet
This sentence is problematic on several counts. First, Christianity predates Darwin. Second, Genesis predates Christianity. This is a not-so-subtle jab. Please reword it or remove it. 170.215.45.95 19:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Vacous Poet
Why is this an improvement? — coelacan talk — 04:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dave, I saw your edit, and I read the transcript [3] from which you sourced your additions. I think you summarized James Moore's comments correctly. However, could you help me learn how to evaluate what sources can be used on wikipedia? E.g., an edited radio interview with a biographer may not necessarily be the best source regarding religious thought at the time. And that he was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household and his choice of subject matter might be related, and I wonder to what extent his commentary is influenced by his rejection of fundamentalism.
Especially since Moore quotes a poem, and not the Bible, as influencing the public beliefs at that time. I have no expertise to know if the poem was more influential than the Bible, but the claim raises my eyebrows. Of course, Moore has probably studied the times of Darwin while researching his biographies, so this doubt I have may be unfounded.
Also troubling is Krista Tippett's mischaracterization of the 1925 Scopes trial as though it were some shameful event in American History, instead of the staged event it was, in which the ACLU had to place newspaper ads across Tennessee seeking a teacher willing to be prosecuted, and found one in a phy. ed. teacher who occasionally substituted for Biology class, and who could not recollect ever violating the law, but was persuaded to volunteer to be persecuted by his good friend, the prosecutor, Bryan, a fundamentalist himself, by other civic and business leaders who merely wanted to bring economic benefits to their hometown. (Source: Historian Edward Larson's Pulitzer-winning book Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate over Science and Religion.)
Also, Moore's the sentence "By the time of Darwin's birth in 1809, it was widely believed in England that both the natural world and the hierarchical social order were held stable, fixed by God's will, with nothing happening purely naturally and spontaneously." doesn't make any sense. If something happened, and was attributed to the will of God, how could it be held fixed?
I also listened to the podcast[ [4]] of the program, and found especially troubling the prayer music playing during the readings of Darwin's writings a bit strange, as though Darwin's writings were holy scripture.
If he is correct in his assessment of religious beliefs, the additions you made deserves to stay. But wouldn't it be better to quote a religious historian instead of an ex-fundamentalist with an axe to grind?
I know it was a lot of work to read and summarize, so please don't take this as an insult. I am just not sure this is a reliable source. Perhaps that doesn't matter, though, as long as it is sourced. Your command of written English is outstanding, by the way.
StudyAndBeWise 07:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
StudyAndBeWise 19:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
In the public reaction section, the side bar "Darwin himself worked over the years with translators who published his work in both French and German as well." exists. This sentence seems to be superfluous, and I will remove it. I am putting this note because the sentence probably belongs somewhere in the article.
StudyAndBeWise 22:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
StudyAndBeWise 21:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
This is an
archive of past discussions for the period 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Just a slightly pedantic point - The Origin of Species is not a scientific theory in that it has not been definitively proven (although its postulations do appear to be accurate). In a truly objective article, this should be edited to hypothesis. (The same is true of physical 'theories' such as Quantum theory and the theory of relativity. Articles to this effect have appeared in such scientific journals as the New Scientist over the past couple of months. Ck lostsword 17:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Very true. :D. Sorry for criticising TOS - I am strongly in support of evolution (having grown up with it, I cannot imagine any other way of thinking about it - I suppose I realise what Darwin was up against!). This is not an attack to the book or theory/hypothesis, merely an alternative way of thinking. When the NS article in question refers to evolution, it uses it as an example of a semi-provable theory (in my terminology), and is actually used as the argument by ID for the use of the word 'theory.' The NS article can be found at [[ [1]]]
Even for the non-specialist the book was quite readable (as it still is), and it attracted widespread interest. Although the ideas presented in it are supported by overwhelming scientific evidence"
this is not true. remove it. this is a biased opinion. The tone of the article is also biased. It avoids direct confrontation of the evidence, declares the opposition uneducated, and finds solace in name calling. It's not politically correct to question evolution now. To do so risks ridicule and being seen in the eyes of their peers as foolish and uneducated, when previously they were thought to be brilliant. The basic idea is " if you dont believe this, then your dumb and were not talking with you." The theory of evolution is the result of men wanting to rid themselves of what they saw as the bondage of religion, but until Evolution, there was no rational or intelligent alternative. To rid the feeling of guilt and justify their own lusts and desires, they needed something to justify a disbelief in God, because lets face it not believing in God simply because you don't want to doesn't cut it, with evolution one can hide behind the illusion of materialism and naturalism, seemingly rational, is in the embrace of evolution. It is widely accepted today, not so much because of evidence, but as hostory shows, controversy. Controversy is what made it so popular along with tactful use of humorously misleading remarks and name calling of all those who believe in God to be ignorant and uneducated. Closing one's mind off of a possibility doesn't mean the evidence isnt there. You aren't looking for it, therefore you wont find it. If you do find it, you must dismiss it because it doesn't fit into your preception of reality. Evolution can't leave room for free thinking and open mindedness. It is stricter and more dogmatic than religion and is potentially more dangerous if taken more literal. There are many difficulties in Evolution that are bigger problems then evolutionists are willing to admit, because human beings try to avoid anything which causes cognitive dissonance. Following detrimental issues that are a blow to the theory of evolution and are at least worth looking into are the following:
The fossil record: the sudden appearance of complex life forms and lack of transitional forms. The problem of life coming from nonlife the problem of complexity arising out of simplicity without the aid of intelligent intervention the immense amount of information encoded into the DNA The lack of true mutations that are beneficial to an organism's survival The limits to the amount of change possible within a species
Those are just a few. Now let's be real with ourselves, clear you mind of the emotional backlash you would want to throw at me and consider, just for a moment, that maybe you haven't objectively studied this. I mean why believe in a theory, which relies on the universe creating itself from nothing, randomly, a claim that can't be tested or observed, take convienient "accidents" that just so happened to manage to create life which decided that it would evolve, note that the evolving would have to go without the death of the creature doing the evolving (which in the real world it is observed that it's very unlikely if not impossible), and eventually we arrive at todays world where we are still "evolving", is asking us to take a larger leap of blind faith, and that could only happen in specific and perfectly controlled environments, which requires intelligent intervention, but that these states just happened by chance is completely ludicrous. The article should just state what evolution is, what it teaches, and what its core beliefs are. That's it. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for propaganda.
What are these "favored races" Darwin talks about? Seems pretty racist to me. I tend to dislike acts of racism.
The following section from the lead
In it, Darwin makes "one long argument" for his theory that "groups" of organisms, (now called populations) rather than individual organisms, gradually evolve through the process of natural selection—a mechanism effectively introduced to the public at large by the book.
seems to suggest Darwin favoured group selectionism. Is this accurate? From what I remember of the Origin, Darwin always seemed to favour individual organisms as the units of selection. I might be wrong tho... Mikker ... 10:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The links under each section that go to main articles (such as history of evolutionary thought) are not capitalized properly. I tried correcting this capitalization, but this caused the link to no longer link to an existing article. I am rather new to this, so if someone could either tell me how to correct this or correct it for me, I would be eternally grateful. Thanks. Makeemlighter 20:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: On Wallace's own first edition of The Origin of Species, he crossed out every instance of the phrase "natural selection" and replaced with it Spencer's "survival of the fittest." Since Spencer did not introduce his phrase until 1864, Wallace could not have made this emendation until five years after the book's publication, a delay not hinted at in the current description. -- Blainster 21:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Should we not put someting to the effect that the Darwins theories were widely accepted by 1900 among the general public and the church. Although ther was indeed controversy at the time I think the work was well established as the orthodoxy in 1900. The controversy may be overemphasised in the light of some recent moves in America from a minority seeking to resurrect the 'young earth' theory, and who get attention due to their sheer lunacy of argument.
The Good article nomination for On the Origin of Species/Archive 2 has failed for the following reason:
I will nominate this article as an uncited good article because I think that it is well written and informative.
-- The Talking Sock talk contribs 15:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Fastsission & Dave, I appreciate the discussions regarding the contributions to The Origin of Species. Fastfission, you stated that my efforts to present statements with a more neutral point of view would be “a waste of my time”. Well, after reading all the past discussions, posts, edits, & reverts on this subject, I have concluded that you are absolutley correct. Your extreme bias in this subject makes it a waste of time to discuss. It also makes it a waste of time to attempt to improve the article when neither of you are interested in NPOV.
It appears that you both have an agenda to promote this theory as scientific law. It also appears that allowing biased comments are fine as long as they agree with your opinion. Thanks for your time. I will no longer attempt to contribute to this subject. Erich, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Fastfission, I do understand the scientific definition of theory. Don't get me wrong, evolution is a good theory. However, it is a flawed theory and therefore can/will never be proven. As far as NPOV; the paragraph in question would be changed immediately if it were in some other (non-controversial) subject. The current wording is an obvious attempt to promote a specific opinion. I do thank you for presenting some options. However, as I said, after reading all the discussion on this subject, it does seem like a waste of time. Finally, you chose to participate in the "edit war". Couldn't you "talked" about it instead of reverting the edit? BTW, I have appreciated your pleasant attitude during our correspondence. Thank you,-- Erich168 19:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hope it's helpful - I've reworded the offending paragraph a little, which I hope leaves both sides with some dignity? - Ballista 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is about the book but the para 3 in the into states, ..."Although its ideas are supported by an overwhelming body of scientific evidence and are widely accepted by scientists today, they are still highly controversial in some parts of the world, particularly among American non-scientists who perceive them to contradict various religious texts (see Creation-evolution controversy).". and I feel that this is not relevant to the book. The so-called Creation-evolution controversy is more focused on modern evolution theory not Darwins book. There is also the obvious anachronism as the issue is American non-scientists (people ?) today whereas America wasn't a coherent country as it was fighting a civil war around the time this book was published. I think the people had more to worry about then. Unless the Creation-evolution controversy is predominantly about Darwins book then it is being given undue weight and thus the existing link further into the article to the Creation-evolution controversy will suffice. I vote it's culled. Ttiotsw 03:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Added reviews with links to three contemporary reviews and a links to Victorian Science texts.
DLH 00:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If by creationism you mean those who use the account in Genesis, Genesis 30:37-43 describes in detail how Jacob's and Laban's goats mutated. Please do not reintroduce "which were immutable" unless you can cite a source that shows the clear reading of Genesis 30:37-43 does not decribe mutations in goats.
Please consider removing from the article: "Today, the overwhelming majority of scientists in the fields of earth and life sciences (over 99.9%) consider Darwin's theory correct." [2]
The citation does not say this. It says that "This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism." Creationism and Darwinism are not the only two/mutually exclusive theories on the origin of species. Accordingly, since this an article on the origin of species, and not creationism, I will be removing the quote.-- 170.215.45.95 00:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous poet
Well I've never met a biological scientist who doesn't, and I've met hundreds. -- Michael Johnson 02:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.
Does this information contain any relevance? I mean, not all respected scientists have any considerable knowledge of this particular field. Darth Viller ( talk) 13:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we add a political and philosophical influences section, or should this be included in the public reaction. For example, Ernst Lehmann, a Darwinist/botanist, characterized National Socialism as "politically applied biology." (Wege und Ziele biologischer Arbeit im neuen Reich, München, 1934, pp. 10-11). Also, the book "From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany" (ISBN: 140397201X) links Darwinism to Hitler's political policies. If how non-scientists in general react to Darwin's theory is of some import, adding a section on how it philosophically influenced Powerful world leaders like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao seems of greater import.
170.215.45.95 00:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous Poet
No because that has nothing to do with Darwin and the Origin of Species. To link the rise of Hitler to Darwin is a bit like linking the rise of Hitler to the motor car, because Hitler supported the development of the Volkswagen and Autobahns. How people mis-apply science in a socialogical context has nohting to do with the science, but everything to do with those people. -- Michael Johnson 01:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
So what is the point? You can't "apply" a theory to a problem it does not apply to. The book "Origin of the Species" which is the subject of the article does not mention human beings. If your "powerful and educated men" are applying something they read in OOTS to human race relations, they are sadly misled. Go write something in their biographies, if you think it important. It has nothing to do with Darwin or this book. -- Michael Johnson 01:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Fact is, Stalin persercuted evolutionary biologists because he tried to impose his own crackpot theory, just as the religious fundalmentalists are trying to impose their own crackpot theory. This resulted in the deaths of millions in the Soviet Union via starvation. Lets hope the christian crackpots don't get power in the west as their cousins the islamic crackpots are doing in the east. -- Michael Johnson 01:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Well that is simply not true. You really need to read up on Stalin some more. And now we have guilt by association for athiests. Stalin was an athiest therefore athiests are like Stalin? -- Michael Johnson 02:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
OK so you have a sense of humour... Actually I don't think anybody is even watching. Anyway we are getting way off topic, which is that whatever Hitler, Stalin, or Fred Bloggs at 41 Spring St. think, it has nothing to do with OOTS. -- Michael Johnson 04:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"a significant proportion of non-scientists in the United States and a few other countries disagree mainly on religious grounds"
Please keep "mainly on religious grounds" out, or cite a poll to justify the claim.
As one well-known counter-example, Ann Coulter is a non-scientist, and she enumerates many problems with Darwin's The Origin of Species that are not based on religious grounds (see "Godless: The Church of Liberalism", ISBN: 1400054206, which argues that to accept Darwin's theory requires acts of faith and belief in miracles, as part of her argument that modern secular humanistic liberalism is itself a religion.) As another example, see "Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing" (ISBN: 1932236317) They are based on philosophical, scientific, and logical grounds.
I could name other non-scientists who base their opposition to Darwin's theory on the Origin of Species on non-religious grounds. That a majority of them might be religious does not prima facie demonstrate their logic, opposition, or skepticism is based on religious grounds. You might argue that they are wrong, are relying on faulty logic, are ignorant, and conclude that since they are religious they are actually forming their opposition on religious grounds, but this argument is itself a fallacy. They could simply be wrong and religious. (Or they could be right, who am I to know?)
Citing a source that simply asserts "Most of those who reject evolution do so because of personal religious conviction, not because of evidence" does not make it so. Assertions are cheap, especially on the Internet. Cite a poll that asks those non-scientists who do not completely accept Darwin's theory why they do so, or keep your speculation out of the article. --- Vacuous Poet
Belief system | Creationist view | Theistic evolution | Naturalistic Evolution |
---|---|---|---|
Everyone | 44% | 39% | 10% |
Scientists | 5% | 40% | 55% |
Note the Everyone is the non-scientists and it clearly shows a bias towards either Classic creation or god-of-gaps style evolution. Ann Coulter's Wikipedia article has her as not being "impartial or balanced". The Origin of the Species came out over a hundred and fifty years ago and to date has survived. I do not think Ann Coulter's efforts are comparable and it would add undue weight to her apologetic to use it to revert text. It is also illogical to have a non-scientist refute Evolution as the non-scientist efforts would not be peer reviewed. Ttiotsw 02:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading Ann Coulters bio it seems she has pretty strong religious beliefs. It wouldbe pretty difficult to seperate these from her arguments on evolution. For a scientist who is also a thiest and a strong supporter of evolution see John Polkinghorne. -- Michael Johnson 08:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Context:
The quotation marks and sentence in which it occurs implies that this was the objective. Did Darwin use the term "created kinds" in the book? Did he explicitly say that he was tryint to refute it? 170.215.45.95 19:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Vacuous Poet
This sentence is problematic on several counts. First, Christianity predates Darwin. Second, Genesis predates Christianity. This is a not-so-subtle jab. Please reword it or remove it. 170.215.45.95 19:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Vacous Poet
Why is this an improvement? — coelacan talk — 04:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dave, I saw your edit, and I read the transcript [3] from which you sourced your additions. I think you summarized James Moore's comments correctly. However, could you help me learn how to evaluate what sources can be used on wikipedia? E.g., an edited radio interview with a biographer may not necessarily be the best source regarding religious thought at the time. And that he was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household and his choice of subject matter might be related, and I wonder to what extent his commentary is influenced by his rejection of fundamentalism.
Especially since Moore quotes a poem, and not the Bible, as influencing the public beliefs at that time. I have no expertise to know if the poem was more influential than the Bible, but the claim raises my eyebrows. Of course, Moore has probably studied the times of Darwin while researching his biographies, so this doubt I have may be unfounded.
Also troubling is Krista Tippett's mischaracterization of the 1925 Scopes trial as though it were some shameful event in American History, instead of the staged event it was, in which the ACLU had to place newspaper ads across Tennessee seeking a teacher willing to be prosecuted, and found one in a phy. ed. teacher who occasionally substituted for Biology class, and who could not recollect ever violating the law, but was persuaded to volunteer to be persecuted by his good friend, the prosecutor, Bryan, a fundamentalist himself, by other civic and business leaders who merely wanted to bring economic benefits to their hometown. (Source: Historian Edward Larson's Pulitzer-winning book Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate over Science and Religion.)
Also, Moore's the sentence "By the time of Darwin's birth in 1809, it was widely believed in England that both the natural world and the hierarchical social order were held stable, fixed by God's will, with nothing happening purely naturally and spontaneously." doesn't make any sense. If something happened, and was attributed to the will of God, how could it be held fixed?
I also listened to the podcast[ [4]] of the program, and found especially troubling the prayer music playing during the readings of Darwin's writings a bit strange, as though Darwin's writings were holy scripture.
If he is correct in his assessment of religious beliefs, the additions you made deserves to stay. But wouldn't it be better to quote a religious historian instead of an ex-fundamentalist with an axe to grind?
I know it was a lot of work to read and summarize, so please don't take this as an insult. I am just not sure this is a reliable source. Perhaps that doesn't matter, though, as long as it is sourced. Your command of written English is outstanding, by the way.
StudyAndBeWise 07:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
StudyAndBeWise 19:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
In the public reaction section, the side bar "Darwin himself worked over the years with translators who published his work in both French and German as well." exists. This sentence seems to be superfluous, and I will remove it. I am putting this note because the sentence probably belongs somewhere in the article.
StudyAndBeWise 22:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
StudyAndBeWise 21:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)