This is an
archive of past discussions for the period July–December 2009. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hello. Just a note that this book was the introduction of sexual selection and I disliked those edits being reverted. You found lots of room for a photo of Asa Gray and could find room for two sentences on Darwin's androcentrism. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page, to keep the discussions in the same place:
Hello Old Moonraker. I thank you for your addition to On the Origin of Species and have added to your sentence. Would you mind taking a look to be sure your or Dr. Fedigan's viewpoint is still represented? - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Now only an academic point, as the material has been deleted for WP:TOPIC, which I do not oppose. While it's fair for your edit to emphasise that the subject remains an issue in scientific as well as feminist (I hope I'm not misrepresenting Hubbard in this) writings, using Fedigan's statement, noting support among modern social scientists for that aspect of Darwin's writing, to introduce again the opposing point of view—"thus"—seems contrary to any logical construction of an argument. Thanks, though, for taking he trouble to explain your thoughts here. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 20:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 20:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
<edit conflict> I understand the need to feel you must include: "It has been suggested by some modern authors that his observations reflect Victorian and androcentric bias, but sexual selection remains an important part of modern evolutionary theory." However, I think the sentence is out of place where it is and the passive voice is to be avoided. Plus makes the reader go to and fro between then and now, whereas that section is not a modern analysis of Darwin's theory. Just my opinion. If you must have it, perhaps you can find better way. Regards, — Mattisse ( Talk) 20:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) has a chapter on Science and gender which mentions Darwin on pp. 503–504 in a section which concludes that some authors see his perception and that of others such as Huxley as reinforcing stereotypes and as bad science, assuming that there is an ideal science divorced from society, while others see it as an inevitable outcome of the sexist nature of science. "If we take the view that science is always the product of particular cultural circumstances, however, we might be less surprised to note the ways in which it often reflects the values of those particular cultures in which it is produced." . . .
dave souza,
talk 22:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Mattisse's edit summary was out of line, "Yeah, he was responsible for Hitler and eugenics too", and is an example of Godwin's law. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I think Dave and Matisse are correct because of the issue of scope. Bowler and Morus (2005) do explicitly mention this issue on page 503 (in their chapter on science and gender), but it is a brief allusion (a couple of sentences) in a longer discussion of how scientific ideas have been used to justify traditional gender roles. As far as I can tell none of the mainstream accounts of the history of the theory of evolution mention it (including the one in another chapeter of Bowler and Morus). I note that it is mentioned briefly in sexual selection. Matisse is correct that if you bring this in you open the door for a whole bunch more stuff like postmodern criticisms of evolutionary theory that are really out of the scope of this article. If you want to persue the specific issue of Darwin's views, you might have a better case for a brief mention in Descent of Man since half of that book is devoted to sexual selection rather than just the couple of paragraphs devoted to it in Origin. I don't think you would have much luck getting it mentione in Charles Darwin given how crowded that article is, but given this discussion and another a few weeks ago about Darwin's racial views I begin to suspect that there might be room for a separate article on Darwin's views about race and gender along the same line as the article on his religious views. I shudder to think about the effort it would take to keep such an article on point and NPOV given the large number of axes people with various different points of view would have to grind, but it might be worth it given the amount of discussion on these topics, and I suspect there would be plenty of source material. The trick would be in giving appropriate weight to the different sources to keep the article in balance. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. This is very early to review but I think what is there now in this section of Descent of Man includes everybody mentioned here so far. I hope so and invite your edits. - SusanLesch ( talk) 05:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a disconnect between this article and Publication of Darwin's theory. While this article states the date as 24 November, Publication of Darwin's theory says it went to sale on 22nd November? Can we change both to the correct date? 22/24? prashanthns ( talk) 19:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The article cites Bowler (2003) pp. 84–90 for the statement "Lamarck thought there was an inherent progressive tendency driving organisms continuously towards greater complexity, in parallel but separate lineages with no extinction."
With this edit James A. Donald, stating in the edit summary The idea of a tree of life, that all or most kinds are decended from a common ancestor, long preceded Darwin, and has little to do with Darwinism, changed the part after the comma to "with life forms diverging from a common ancestor" giving as a ref “a branching series, irregularly graduated which has no discontinuity in its parts, or which, at least, if its true that there are some because of lost species, has not alway had such. It follows that the species that terminate each branch of the general series are related, at least on one side, to the other neighboring species that shade into them” No sign where that came from, and it contracicts the various historians who describe the Lamarckian era as reviving the chain of life idea with modifications, and Darwin as originating the idea of a genealogical tree uniting all or most species. We could go into more detail about Lamarck's ideas, but original the statement above still stands so I've restored the original statement and reference to Bowler. . dave souza, talk 08:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
We have elsewhere correctly summarised the main themes of Lamarck as 1. The complexifying force, which tends to move animals up the ladder of progress, and 2. The adaptive force, which causes adaptation. This latter is the real key to Lamarck, because his naturalistic (and mistaken) mechanism for adaptation differentiates him from the natural theologians. Misunderstanding of Lamarck is common because he was such a long-winded and obscure writer, and poses problems whether in French or English. Our original account in this article was quite sound, and quite enough. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 09:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not following you here. Here is the first reference to a tree of common descent on page 293 in chapter 11 of the 6th edition, which I believe is what you are refering to. The passage is virtually unchanged from what appeared in chapter X of the first edition. Here is the passage:
This gradual increase in number of the species of a group is strictly conformable with the theory, for the species of the same genus, and the genera of the same family, can increase only slowly and progressively; the process of modification and the production of a number of allied forms necessarily being a slow and gradual process,—one species first giving rise to two or three varieties, these being slowly converted into species, which in their turn produce by equally slow steps other varieties and species, and so on, like the branching of a great tree from a single stem, till the group becomes large.
There is nothing in this passage or any of the surrounding text that would suggest to me that Darwin thought someone else had originated the tree simile. If I have the wrong passage, please provide a more specific citation with either the quotation you are refering to or at least a specific page number. Thank you. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 01:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Lamarck's diagram and references to branching are discussed in Bowler, pp. 89–91. Contrary to James A. Donald's original research, this was a secondary adaptive force distorting the linear pattern of Lamarck's progressive trend from multiple origins. Bowler's caption to an illustration based on the same diagram states that Lamarck "would not have seen this as a tree of genealogical relationships, but as a more realistic representation of the chain produced as in fig. 9", which shows muliple origins with the current appearance of species relating to how long they've been progressing. From Larson, p. 41, "The current array of forms were neither fixed nor had common ancestry, Lamarck maintained, but were merely a snapshot of development over time from a multitude of beginnings, with more specialised organisms representing older lineages than less specialised ones." It's a difficult concept to grasp now that common descent seems so obvious, but the ancient tree of life had a range of symbolic meanings, and it took Darwin to make it a genealogical ancestral tree. . dave souza, talk 09:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The article keeps ascribing the tree of life to Darwin, though this idea - that similar kinds are similar because they are descended from a common ancestor, is so ancient that it is impossible to ascertain who was the first, if indeed there was a first.
Darwin's big new idea, as he makes perfectly clear, is natural selection, survival of the fittest.
Lamarck proposed that species diverge into many species, as a result of some members of a species encountering a different environment to that of others of their species [1], and intermediate forms becoming extinct [2], and we can find close precursors of this idea all the way back to Ancient Greece.
Darwinism is survival of the fittest, which doctrine people do not like, because of Darwin's rather cheerful and upbeat discussion of genocide, sociobiology, extinction, sex roles, and lots of similarly disturbing truths. James A. Donald ( talk) 08:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Just to make it clear. Lamarck's views are fudnamentally at odds with the concept of a singally rooted tree or even a few roots. As Edward Larson summarizes in Evolution: The Remarkable Historyh of a Scientific Theory (2004) p. 40:
“ Lamarck believed in the ongoing spontaneous generation of simple living organisms... As seen by him but never widely accepted among scientists, the evolutionary process acts much like an ascending escalator in that the various types of organisms get on at different times but all ride it up simultaneously. ”
On page 41 Larson concludes:
“ Aside from the fundamental difference between plants and animnals, taxonomic distinctions (such as species and genus) lost any real meanining in a Lamarckian world. All organisms of every lineage were simply progressing towards greater complexity. This process might take differing forms in different organisms because of environmental conditions, of course, but the trend everywhere is the same. The current array of forms were neither fixed nor had common ancestry, Lamarck maintained, but were merely a snapshot of development over time from a multitude of beginnings,... ”
This did not preclude some branching along the way but that would be incidental. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Why do you lot keep reinserting the lie that Lamarck proposed parallel descent without branching, when Lamarck says "branching series", and draws them branching.
Why assert that Lamarck denied extinction, when he invoked extinction?
Let us have a debate on this, instead of just deleting simple facts supported by direct quotes from Lamarck, and replacing Lamarck's own words with what purports to be a paraphrase and summary of what some historian supposedly said about Lamarck - though when I read that historian, it does not appear to be an accurate summary of what that historian said about Lamarck.
Whatever Lamarck said about evolution, it was certainly not "without branching"
The proposition that Lamarck denied branching and extinction is just flatly contrary to Lamarck's own words - it is a wholly invented fact, invented to in order define Darwinism as something other than natural selection and survival of the fittest, invented so that those who find survival of the fittest disturbingly politically incorrect can pretend that they are Darwinists.
Darwinism means natural selection, survival of the fittest, gradual continuous ill defined speciation through natural selection rather than abrupt well defined speciation, and competition that takes place between individuals, subspecies, and species, competition that is both individual and group. That is what it has always meant. That is Darwin's focus, and that is what makes Darwin new and different from his predecessors such as Lamarck. If you reject that lot, or discount it as something insignificant that only happened under special circumstances long, long ago, and far far away, then you are not a Darwinist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by James A. Donald ( talk • contribs) 11:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The only way to resolve this is by checking sources - probalby secondary, as one secondary considers that L was not explicit as we, with the benefit of hindsight, have come to expect. A few sources I've find may help:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) says L thought each lineage progressed to increasingly complex forms, leaving gaps in the "ground floor" which were filled by spontaneous generation of newe and distinct lineages.I've just changed a date in the 'Time taken to publish' section from 1938 to 1958, assuming it was a typo. There's still something wrong though, it says: "By December 1858, Darwin had his basic theory of natural selection "by which to work", yet when Wallace's letter arrived on 18 June 1858 Darwin was still not ready to publish his theory".
"still wasn't ready" implies the letter arrived after he finished the "basic theory", but the dates say it happened before? Codemonkey87 ( talk) 04:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Henry Fairfield Osborn 1898 book: From the Greeks to Darwin. http://www.archive.org/stream/fromgreekstodarw00osborich/fromgreekstodarw00osborich_djvu.txt THE SELECTIONISTS:
p.117 ".... It is rather a form of the Survival of the Fittest theory applied, not to entire organisms, but to the particles of which it is composed. Blind and ceaseless trials, such as those imagined by Em- pedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, are made by these particles, impelled by their rude sensibility. As a sequel of many failures, finally a favourable combination is formed, which persists until a recom- bination is rendered necessary.......Morley (not knowing of Empedocles' hypothesis) speaks of as an anticipation of a famous modern theory, referring of course to * Natural Selection.' This is especially valuable because it affords another conclusive proof that the idea of the ' Survival of the Fittest ' must actually be traced back to Empedocles, six centuries before Christ. It is contained in an imaginary dialogue upon the teleological view of Nature between ' Saunderson ' and the ' Professor ' : " ... all the faulty combinations of matter disappeared, and that those individuals only survived whose mechanism implied no important misadaptation (contradiction), and who had the power of supporting and per- petuating themselves....." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.115.9.120 ( talk) 20:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
"....The modern theory of Natural Selection was ex- pressed first by DR. W. C. WELLS, in 1813, then by St. Hilaire the elder, then by Matthew, in 1831, and finally, with considerably less clearness, if at all, by Naudin, in 1852. Darwin gives us references to the two English writers. That of Wells is the first statement of the theory of the survival, not simply of fittest organisms, as understood by previous writers, such as Buffon and Treviranus, but of or- ganisms surviving because of their possession of favourable variations in single characters. Wells' paper, read before the Royal Society in 1813, was entitled, " An Account of a White Female, part of whose Skin resembles that of a Negro " ; it was not published until iSiS. 1 He here recognizes the prin- ciple of Natural Selection, as applied to the races of men, and to the explanation of the origin of sin- gle characters...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.115.9.120 ( talk) 20:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as it was such a major book in impact, and the first edition had a print run of just over one thousand, shouldn't this article have a section regarding surviving copies, like which museums/libraries have them on archive? For example I lead you to http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/23/2750469.htm where someone found a first edition copy in a garage sale and stored it in their toilet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.164.8 ( talk) 04:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
An edit changed "merely" to "coyly" for the mention of the implications of human evolution, citing Andrew Marr (2009). " Body and Soul". Darwin's Dangerous Idea, part one. BBC Two. The programme was rather mixed, with dubious assertions, and dramatic rather than scholarly: I have it on video and can re-watch it, but don't think it's really an ideal reference. Also, a "Bibliography" subsection was introduced for the book or other references: think this goes against the MOS which uses the term for further reading. . dave souza, talk 10:02, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I expanded it a little and I think made it a little more clear. I am hoping the result is consistent with what Dave drew from Browne, as well as with the 3 secondary sources I consulted (Costa, Quammen, and Larson), and I think it works well with the following sentence. I will avoid tempting fate by restoring the resolved template until Dave and Matisse have had a chance to take a pass. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 04:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is on the first page, isn't it supposed to be write-protected for most people? Currently seeing quite a lot of vandalism (and also non-vandalism questionable edits). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.6.124 ( talk) 10:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Someone added 465 pages to the infobox: the first edition seems to have had 490 pages before the index, not sure how these things are counted. . . dave souza, talk 10:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Neither section seems to mention Patrick Matthew. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:51, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Congratulations! :-) Cheers, Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 13:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm so glad this article is on the front page. Maybe some of these creationists in denial will finally see the light. Well, here's to hoping anyway. Wikipediarul e s 2221 20:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This discussion thread not only fails to be relevant to the article, it also fails to bring up any arguments at all neither for nor against neither evolution nor creationism. Utterly pointless as it is, wouldn't it be best to simply let this poor thread die in peace? Have mercy on it. Please do not torture this defenseless thread. - Soulkeeper ( talk) 08:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
The creationist/evolutionist squabble aside (like the above), this is an extremely well crafted article on an important encyclopedic topic. The editors (as well as the FAC contributors) who put so much time and effort to get this article up to FA standards in time for the 150th anniversary deserve the Wikipedia community's gratitude. This was of considerable service and benefit to the encyclopedia. Great job! Agne Cheese/ Wine 21:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This is an
archive of past discussions for the period July–December 2009. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hello. Just a note that this book was the introduction of sexual selection and I disliked those edits being reverted. You found lots of room for a photo of Asa Gray and could find room for two sentences on Darwin's androcentrism. - SusanLesch ( talk) 20:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page, to keep the discussions in the same place:
Hello Old Moonraker. I thank you for your addition to On the Origin of Species and have added to your sentence. Would you mind taking a look to be sure your or Dr. Fedigan's viewpoint is still represented? - SusanLesch ( talk) 19:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Now only an academic point, as the material has been deleted for WP:TOPIC, which I do not oppose. While it's fair for your edit to emphasise that the subject remains an issue in scientific as well as feminist (I hope I'm not misrepresenting Hubbard in this) writings, using Fedigan's statement, noting support among modern social scientists for that aspect of Darwin's writing, to introduce again the opposing point of view—"thus"—seems contrary to any logical construction of an argument. Thanks, though, for taking he trouble to explain your thoughts here. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 20:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 20:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
<edit conflict> I understand the need to feel you must include: "It has been suggested by some modern authors that his observations reflect Victorian and androcentric bias, but sexual selection remains an important part of modern evolutionary theory." However, I think the sentence is out of place where it is and the passive voice is to be avoided. Plus makes the reader go to and fro between then and now, whereas that section is not a modern analysis of Darwin's theory. Just my opinion. If you must have it, perhaps you can find better way. Regards, — Mattisse ( Talk) 20:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) has a chapter on Science and gender which mentions Darwin on pp. 503–504 in a section which concludes that some authors see his perception and that of others such as Huxley as reinforcing stereotypes and as bad science, assuming that there is an ideal science divorced from society, while others see it as an inevitable outcome of the sexist nature of science. "If we take the view that science is always the product of particular cultural circumstances, however, we might be less surprised to note the ways in which it often reflects the values of those particular cultures in which it is produced." . . .
dave souza,
talk 22:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Mattisse's edit summary was out of line, "Yeah, he was responsible for Hitler and eugenics too", and is an example of Godwin's law. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I think Dave and Matisse are correct because of the issue of scope. Bowler and Morus (2005) do explicitly mention this issue on page 503 (in their chapter on science and gender), but it is a brief allusion (a couple of sentences) in a longer discussion of how scientific ideas have been used to justify traditional gender roles. As far as I can tell none of the mainstream accounts of the history of the theory of evolution mention it (including the one in another chapeter of Bowler and Morus). I note that it is mentioned briefly in sexual selection. Matisse is correct that if you bring this in you open the door for a whole bunch more stuff like postmodern criticisms of evolutionary theory that are really out of the scope of this article. If you want to persue the specific issue of Darwin's views, you might have a better case for a brief mention in Descent of Man since half of that book is devoted to sexual selection rather than just the couple of paragraphs devoted to it in Origin. I don't think you would have much luck getting it mentione in Charles Darwin given how crowded that article is, but given this discussion and another a few weeks ago about Darwin's racial views I begin to suspect that there might be room for a separate article on Darwin's views about race and gender along the same line as the article on his religious views. I shudder to think about the effort it would take to keep such an article on point and NPOV given the large number of axes people with various different points of view would have to grind, but it might be worth it given the amount of discussion on these topics, and I suspect there would be plenty of source material. The trick would be in giving appropriate weight to the different sources to keep the article in balance. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. This is very early to review but I think what is there now in this section of Descent of Man includes everybody mentioned here so far. I hope so and invite your edits. - SusanLesch ( talk) 05:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a disconnect between this article and Publication of Darwin's theory. While this article states the date as 24 November, Publication of Darwin's theory says it went to sale on 22nd November? Can we change both to the correct date? 22/24? prashanthns ( talk) 19:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The article cites Bowler (2003) pp. 84–90 for the statement "Lamarck thought there was an inherent progressive tendency driving organisms continuously towards greater complexity, in parallel but separate lineages with no extinction."
With this edit James A. Donald, stating in the edit summary The idea of a tree of life, that all or most kinds are decended from a common ancestor, long preceded Darwin, and has little to do with Darwinism, changed the part after the comma to "with life forms diverging from a common ancestor" giving as a ref “a branching series, irregularly graduated which has no discontinuity in its parts, or which, at least, if its true that there are some because of lost species, has not alway had such. It follows that the species that terminate each branch of the general series are related, at least on one side, to the other neighboring species that shade into them” No sign where that came from, and it contracicts the various historians who describe the Lamarckian era as reviving the chain of life idea with modifications, and Darwin as originating the idea of a genealogical tree uniting all or most species. We could go into more detail about Lamarck's ideas, but original the statement above still stands so I've restored the original statement and reference to Bowler. . dave souza, talk 08:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
We have elsewhere correctly summarised the main themes of Lamarck as 1. The complexifying force, which tends to move animals up the ladder of progress, and 2. The adaptive force, which causes adaptation. This latter is the real key to Lamarck, because his naturalistic (and mistaken) mechanism for adaptation differentiates him from the natural theologians. Misunderstanding of Lamarck is common because he was such a long-winded and obscure writer, and poses problems whether in French or English. Our original account in this article was quite sound, and quite enough. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 09:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not following you here. Here is the first reference to a tree of common descent on page 293 in chapter 11 of the 6th edition, which I believe is what you are refering to. The passage is virtually unchanged from what appeared in chapter X of the first edition. Here is the passage:
This gradual increase in number of the species of a group is strictly conformable with the theory, for the species of the same genus, and the genera of the same family, can increase only slowly and progressively; the process of modification and the production of a number of allied forms necessarily being a slow and gradual process,—one species first giving rise to two or three varieties, these being slowly converted into species, which in their turn produce by equally slow steps other varieties and species, and so on, like the branching of a great tree from a single stem, till the group becomes large.
There is nothing in this passage or any of the surrounding text that would suggest to me that Darwin thought someone else had originated the tree simile. If I have the wrong passage, please provide a more specific citation with either the quotation you are refering to or at least a specific page number. Thank you. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 01:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Lamarck's diagram and references to branching are discussed in Bowler, pp. 89–91. Contrary to James A. Donald's original research, this was a secondary adaptive force distorting the linear pattern of Lamarck's progressive trend from multiple origins. Bowler's caption to an illustration based on the same diagram states that Lamarck "would not have seen this as a tree of genealogical relationships, but as a more realistic representation of the chain produced as in fig. 9", which shows muliple origins with the current appearance of species relating to how long they've been progressing. From Larson, p. 41, "The current array of forms were neither fixed nor had common ancestry, Lamarck maintained, but were merely a snapshot of development over time from a multitude of beginnings, with more specialised organisms representing older lineages than less specialised ones." It's a difficult concept to grasp now that common descent seems so obvious, but the ancient tree of life had a range of symbolic meanings, and it took Darwin to make it a genealogical ancestral tree. . dave souza, talk 09:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The article keeps ascribing the tree of life to Darwin, though this idea - that similar kinds are similar because they are descended from a common ancestor, is so ancient that it is impossible to ascertain who was the first, if indeed there was a first.
Darwin's big new idea, as he makes perfectly clear, is natural selection, survival of the fittest.
Lamarck proposed that species diverge into many species, as a result of some members of a species encountering a different environment to that of others of their species [1], and intermediate forms becoming extinct [2], and we can find close precursors of this idea all the way back to Ancient Greece.
Darwinism is survival of the fittest, which doctrine people do not like, because of Darwin's rather cheerful and upbeat discussion of genocide, sociobiology, extinction, sex roles, and lots of similarly disturbing truths. James A. Donald ( talk) 08:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Just to make it clear. Lamarck's views are fudnamentally at odds with the concept of a singally rooted tree or even a few roots. As Edward Larson summarizes in Evolution: The Remarkable Historyh of a Scientific Theory (2004) p. 40:
“ Lamarck believed in the ongoing spontaneous generation of simple living organisms... As seen by him but never widely accepted among scientists, the evolutionary process acts much like an ascending escalator in that the various types of organisms get on at different times but all ride it up simultaneously. ”
On page 41 Larson concludes:
“ Aside from the fundamental difference between plants and animnals, taxonomic distinctions (such as species and genus) lost any real meanining in a Lamarckian world. All organisms of every lineage were simply progressing towards greater complexity. This process might take differing forms in different organisms because of environmental conditions, of course, but the trend everywhere is the same. The current array of forms were neither fixed nor had common ancestry, Lamarck maintained, but were merely a snapshot of development over time from a multitude of beginnings,... ”
This did not preclude some branching along the way but that would be incidental. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Why do you lot keep reinserting the lie that Lamarck proposed parallel descent without branching, when Lamarck says "branching series", and draws them branching.
Why assert that Lamarck denied extinction, when he invoked extinction?
Let us have a debate on this, instead of just deleting simple facts supported by direct quotes from Lamarck, and replacing Lamarck's own words with what purports to be a paraphrase and summary of what some historian supposedly said about Lamarck - though when I read that historian, it does not appear to be an accurate summary of what that historian said about Lamarck.
Whatever Lamarck said about evolution, it was certainly not "without branching"
The proposition that Lamarck denied branching and extinction is just flatly contrary to Lamarck's own words - it is a wholly invented fact, invented to in order define Darwinism as something other than natural selection and survival of the fittest, invented so that those who find survival of the fittest disturbingly politically incorrect can pretend that they are Darwinists.
Darwinism means natural selection, survival of the fittest, gradual continuous ill defined speciation through natural selection rather than abrupt well defined speciation, and competition that takes place between individuals, subspecies, and species, competition that is both individual and group. That is what it has always meant. That is Darwin's focus, and that is what makes Darwin new and different from his predecessors such as Lamarck. If you reject that lot, or discount it as something insignificant that only happened under special circumstances long, long ago, and far far away, then you are not a Darwinist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by James A. Donald ( talk • contribs) 11:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The only way to resolve this is by checking sources - probalby secondary, as one secondary considers that L was not explicit as we, with the benefit of hindsight, have come to expect. A few sources I've find may help:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) says L thought each lineage progressed to increasingly complex forms, leaving gaps in the "ground floor" which were filled by spontaneous generation of newe and distinct lineages.I've just changed a date in the 'Time taken to publish' section from 1938 to 1958, assuming it was a typo. There's still something wrong though, it says: "By December 1858, Darwin had his basic theory of natural selection "by which to work", yet when Wallace's letter arrived on 18 June 1858 Darwin was still not ready to publish his theory".
"still wasn't ready" implies the letter arrived after he finished the "basic theory", but the dates say it happened before? Codemonkey87 ( talk) 04:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Henry Fairfield Osborn 1898 book: From the Greeks to Darwin. http://www.archive.org/stream/fromgreekstodarw00osborich/fromgreekstodarw00osborich_djvu.txt THE SELECTIONISTS:
p.117 ".... It is rather a form of the Survival of the Fittest theory applied, not to entire organisms, but to the particles of which it is composed. Blind and ceaseless trials, such as those imagined by Em- pedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, are made by these particles, impelled by their rude sensibility. As a sequel of many failures, finally a favourable combination is formed, which persists until a recom- bination is rendered necessary.......Morley (not knowing of Empedocles' hypothesis) speaks of as an anticipation of a famous modern theory, referring of course to * Natural Selection.' This is especially valuable because it affords another conclusive proof that the idea of the ' Survival of the Fittest ' must actually be traced back to Empedocles, six centuries before Christ. It is contained in an imaginary dialogue upon the teleological view of Nature between ' Saunderson ' and the ' Professor ' : " ... all the faulty combinations of matter disappeared, and that those individuals only survived whose mechanism implied no important misadaptation (contradiction), and who had the power of supporting and per- petuating themselves....." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.115.9.120 ( talk) 20:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
"....The modern theory of Natural Selection was ex- pressed first by DR. W. C. WELLS, in 1813, then by St. Hilaire the elder, then by Matthew, in 1831, and finally, with considerably less clearness, if at all, by Naudin, in 1852. Darwin gives us references to the two English writers. That of Wells is the first statement of the theory of the survival, not simply of fittest organisms, as understood by previous writers, such as Buffon and Treviranus, but of or- ganisms surviving because of their possession of favourable variations in single characters. Wells' paper, read before the Royal Society in 1813, was entitled, " An Account of a White Female, part of whose Skin resembles that of a Negro " ; it was not published until iSiS. 1 He here recognizes the prin- ciple of Natural Selection, as applied to the races of men, and to the explanation of the origin of sin- gle characters...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.115.9.120 ( talk) 20:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as it was such a major book in impact, and the first edition had a print run of just over one thousand, shouldn't this article have a section regarding surviving copies, like which museums/libraries have them on archive? For example I lead you to http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/23/2750469.htm where someone found a first edition copy in a garage sale and stored it in their toilet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.164.8 ( talk) 04:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
An edit changed "merely" to "coyly" for the mention of the implications of human evolution, citing Andrew Marr (2009). " Body and Soul". Darwin's Dangerous Idea, part one. BBC Two. The programme was rather mixed, with dubious assertions, and dramatic rather than scholarly: I have it on video and can re-watch it, but don't think it's really an ideal reference. Also, a "Bibliography" subsection was introduced for the book or other references: think this goes against the MOS which uses the term for further reading. . dave souza, talk 10:02, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I expanded it a little and I think made it a little more clear. I am hoping the result is consistent with what Dave drew from Browne, as well as with the 3 secondary sources I consulted (Costa, Quammen, and Larson), and I think it works well with the following sentence. I will avoid tempting fate by restoring the resolved template until Dave and Matisse have had a chance to take a pass. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 04:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is on the first page, isn't it supposed to be write-protected for most people? Currently seeing quite a lot of vandalism (and also non-vandalism questionable edits). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.6.124 ( talk) 10:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Someone added 465 pages to the infobox: the first edition seems to have had 490 pages before the index, not sure how these things are counted. . . dave souza, talk 10:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Neither section seems to mention Patrick Matthew. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:51, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Congratulations! :-) Cheers, Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 13:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm so glad this article is on the front page. Maybe some of these creationists in denial will finally see the light. Well, here's to hoping anyway. Wikipediarul e s 2221 20:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This discussion thread not only fails to be relevant to the article, it also fails to bring up any arguments at all neither for nor against neither evolution nor creationism. Utterly pointless as it is, wouldn't it be best to simply let this poor thread die in peace? Have mercy on it. Please do not torture this defenseless thread. - Soulkeeper ( talk) 08:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
The creationist/evolutionist squabble aside (like the above), this is an extremely well crafted article on an important encyclopedic topic. The editors (as well as the FAC contributors) who put so much time and effort to get this article up to FA standards in time for the 150th anniversary deserve the Wikipedia community's gratitude. This was of considerable service and benefit to the encyclopedia. Great job! Agne Cheese/ Wine 21:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)