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The section that talks about the criticism of evolution that states that it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics correctly points out that this law is incorrectly applied since the Earth and living beings are not closed systems.
Although the section also clarifies that entropy is "a measure of the dispersal of energy in a physical system so that it is not available to do mechanical work", the wording of the section suggests that the 2nd law of thermodynamics can even be applied to the complexity of living organisms.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics pertains the transfer of heat on closed systems, it happens that this law can also be expressed in terms of entropy. However, here 'entropy' and 'closed system' have precise mathematical and physical meanings and 'entropy' even has a precise physical unit (Joules/Kelvin).
This way of criticizing evolution suggest that the 'entropy' of the 2nd law refers to the "dictionary" definition of 'entropy' that pertains the degree of disorder (wich is a very subjective definition) wich in turn can be related (again, in a very subjective way) to the complexity of some subject, object or system (again, very subjective definitions for the words 'complexity' and 'system').
The main reason why this particular way of criticizing evolution is flawed is not that the earth or living organisms are not closed systems, that only makes sense after you make the concession that you can apply the 2nd law of thermodynamics in the first place, wich I think is not being remarked enough in this particular section.
Plaga701 (
talk) 08:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
<br\> Where on earth did you get that I had a personal bias? Even though I am an atheist, that has nothing to do with the physical definition of entropy. The source that you provided states:
after that it says:
This is an attempt to fit the concept of logical entropy in the framework of the 2lotd, wich is not invalid or preposterous, but failure to do so in a way that encircles every single thing we classify as a system (be it biological, social, mathematical...) does not allow to say that the systems that fail to fit in this new law break the 2lotd. It just allow us to say that the 2lotd cannot be adapted to represent these systems.<br\>
It's true that the 2lotd can be applied to closed and open systems, but the issue remains the same, the entropy word is miss-used, because it does not pertain any notion or concept of order or complexity when in the context of the 2lotd, it pertains Joules over Kelvin. In blunt terms (I know biologists and physicist are gonna curse me for what I'm about to do), the entropy change between me and the common ancestor I share would have been to be messured (withing the context of the 2lotd) by taking the average tempeture of the ancestor, every one on it's descendants up until my father and mother while taking the amount of heat introduced in these aforementioned primates, doing the same with me, and the applying the formula deltaS = amount_of_heat_taken/origal_tempeture, and even then it wouldn't make any kind of sense (it doesn't make sense the way it's written now), because the second law of thermodynamics talks about physical entropy, not the perceived complexity of the descendants of an organism over time, wich is a heavily subjective notion that can change from one culture to another and over time.
Plaga701 (
talk) 00:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Plaga701 ( talk) 01:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html<br\> http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-and-entropy<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/second-law<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/entropy-intuition<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/reconciling-thermodynamic-and-state-definitions-of-entropy<br\> I'm having a hard time finding sourced sources for basic physical concepts like entropy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plaga701 ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
If nobody disagrees, I'll add the previous paragraph the the section pertaining the 2nd law with the sources that I provided plus this one: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/189035/entropy<br\> Plaga701 ( talk) 14:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Starting in the "Religious Nature" there are several indented lines which are not in the form of encyclopedic information, but instead read like a verbal or personal argument against the previous writing. It may have citations, but it is quite clearly inappropriate wording and styling for Wikipedia. They need extensive re-writing; if that is not possible, then they must be purged, and moved to the Talk page. 96.28.157.126 ( talk) 13:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
This article reads as if it were written by an expert on the subject who has a strong objection to the nature of this article. After every example of an objection to evolution there are subsequent paragraphs that refute each objection. These paragraphs of refute are more appropriately placed in a "Criticisms" section at or near the end of the article and in a proportion relatively small to that of the main article so that the major written proportion of the page is given to the articles main subject matter 'objections to evolution.' Within the criticisms column and link should be made to a page expanding on the arguments for evolution.
This article also contains numerous weasel words so that a bias is given towards a rebuttal of objections to evolution, for example the following weasel words can be found thought the article and are stared within their respective sentences; 1)Even though biology has long shown that humans are animals, ***some people*** feel that humans should be considered separate from, and/or superior to, animals. 2)Other common objections to evolution ***allege*** that evolution leads to objectionable results, including bad beliefs, behaviors, and events. 3)These objections have been rejected by most scientists, as have ***claims*** that intelligent design, or any other creationist explanation, meets the basic scientific standards that would be required to make them scientific alternatives to evolution. 4)In the years since Behe proposed irreducible complexity, new developments and advances in biology, such as an improved understanding of the evolution of flagella,[132] have already ***undermined*** these arguments.
Other weasel techniques included in this article are use of quotations around words when they are not grammatically needed such as; "Critics of evolution frequently assert that evolution is "just a theory,"..." and "or that certain fossils, such as polystrate fossils, are seemingly "out of place"..."
Lastly while the article does contain many appropriate references there are instances where the writer does not reference material which need research to support their claims, such as
1)In response, creationists have disputed the level of scientific support for evolution. The Discovery Institute has gathered over 600 scientists since 2001 to sign "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" in order to show that there are a number of scientists who dispute what they refer to as "Darwinian evolution". This statement did not profess outright disbelief in evolution, but expressed skepticism as to the ability of "random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life." Several counter-petitions have been launched in turn, including A Scientific Support for Darwinism, which gathered over 7,000 signatures in four days, and Project Steve, a tongue-in-cheek petition that has gathered 1,151 (as of January 18, 2011) evolution-supporting scientists named "Steve". 2) Rather, they dispute the occurrence of major evolutionary changes over long periods of time, which by definition cannot be directly observed, only inferred from microevolutionary processes and the traces of macroevolutionary ones. 3)Supporters of evolution dismiss such criticisms as counterfactual, and some argue that the opposite seems to be the case.
This article as a whole tends to speak more about how 'Objections to evolution' can be proven wrong than it speaks about the objections themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbeals123 ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 8 August 2011
Still, I think Bbeals123 has a point regarding the unsourced material and weasel words? Does anybody else feel the same way?? Plaga701 ( talk) 13:52, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Just read through this page and it's different from other objection/criticism pages I've read. It seems bias when it should be factual. Wikipedia is not a pursuasive essay. Daniel ( talk) 22:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Weight doesn't amount to a bias. It's fair to give something lesser weight which is what this article is but the bias isn't needed. wikipedia:fringe theories Daniel ( talk) 23:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
AGAIN the lack of sources/information isn't the issue. How the sources/information is treated IS the issue. To prove my point, here is a random section of the text under Creation of information:
Note the tone and inherent bias of the choice of words.
These are six examples in just 3 small paragraphs highlighting what I'm am seeing throughout the entire page. THIS is the problem. Ckruschke ( talk) 19:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke
I reverted this addition,
The obvious exception is group of biologists, prominent proponents of ID, such as Jonathan Wells, Scott Minnich and Dean H. Kenyon, Professor Emeritus of Biology at San Francisco State University, co-author of evolutionary book Biochemical Predestination, who claimed to abandon evolutionary position after being challenged by his student with question how could proteins in first living systems assemble without the help of genetic instructions.
because the "prominent proponents of ID" have repeatedly stated that they have religious and not scientific objections to Evolutionary Biology. And that there is no references cited to support suggesting that there is a sizable minority of biologists who support Intelligent Design while rejecting "evolutionary position"-- Mr Fink ( talk) 15:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Pls. explain what is extremely questionable for you at the statement: "The obvious exception is group of biologists, prominent proponents of ID, such as Jonathan Wells, Scott Minnich and Dean H. Kenyon, Professor Emeritus of Biology at San Francisco State University, co-author of evolutionary book Biochemical Predestination, who claimed to abandon evolutionary position after being challenged by his student with question how could proteins in first living systems assemble without the help of genetic instructions."
??? Pls. explain. You're starting to use old-fashioned tactic, driving discussion to distraction, is really Mr Fink not able to provide his own reasoning of what he did so that he needs your help? Did you force him to perform the change? So that now he needs to rely on you when it comes to provision of any rationale of what he did?-- Stephfo ( talk) 18:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
@Stephfo: It is now YOUR responsibility to explain why this addition belongs in the article, providing reliable third-party sources, as Apokryltaros asked you to. You may not turn the situation around and pester him to explain himself further, which he has, and then accuse him of "not standing up for his original reasoning", as you put it.
Provide reliable sources that meet QP policy requirements!!!! Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 17:43, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Pls. explain, or are you not able?-- Stephfo ( talk) 19:52, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
To be clear, I WAS NOT AGREEING WITH STEPHFO, HOWEVER HIS EDIT MADE IT LOOK THAT WAY. [1]. So I was talking about Stephfo's beavhiour that we have to deal with every week or so, not anyone else. This is tiring as hell, and it also is starting to piss me off, learn how things work here, and do not screw with others' edits on the page here, man.... Dbrodbeck ( talk) 20:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
I have three problems with this text:
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk(
P) 06:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any other questions? Plaga701 ( talk) 13:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
or [2]; maybe this would help you also: [3]
This WP:DEADHORSE issue has been argued to death in #Revert Explanation above. There is no WP:CONSENSUS for this poorly sourced & POV edit. Give it a rest! |
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Pls. explain in detail, what exactly you regard for "poor grammar", poor formatting, and what changes you suggest in that respect and also why you refer to University of San Francisco or University of Texas as "poor references". Furthermore, the WP:UNDUE weighgt is contradicting, because if you stand up for what you claim, you should remove the mention of ID from article page as well, should you regard the ID movement and the and its proponents for UNDUE. What exactly do you regard in given sentence removed by you for UNDUE, are you able to support your claim with any demonstration at all? -- Stephfo ( talk) 10:48, 3 September 2011 (UTC) |
There is a clear WP:CONSENSUS against Stephfo's edit on this talkpage. Further attempts to unilaterally impose it on the article is therefore WP:EDITWARring and further attempts to argue it here on article talk are WP:DEADHORSE -- and both are WP:Disruptive editing. I would therefore recommend that if Stephfo wishes to argue this further, that he engage in the WP:DISPUTE resolution process, e.g. by calling a WP:RFC, or making a post on an appropriate noticeboard (e.g. WP:FTN or WP:NPOVN). Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Creation-science and ID proponents constantly repeat the canard that scientists today are questioning whether evolution actually occurred. Of course, the small number of scientists who reject evolution appears to be restricted to supporters of these two movements.
I've edited the article to make a compromise between the two parties here.
— Anupam
I've stumbled upon these interesting concerns while searching:
The problem for evolution comes when more than a single point mutation is needed to achieve a given function - such as appears to be the case with the evolution of the penicillinase and other such relatively simple single-protein enzymatic-type functions. [..] For all cellular functions there is a minimum part requirement consisting of amino acids in specific sequences. [...] Despite the fact that many genes and proteins are quite flexible in their sequencing, all of them have a limit beyond which all beneficial function is lost. [...] As the level of functional complexity increases, the average neutral gaps between potentially beneficial proteins also increase. With the increase in neutral gaps comes a decrease in functional overlap between various sequences. At this point, multiple neutral mutations are required before a new beneficial function can be realized. These multiple mutations are invisible to the powers of natural selection. [...] They are neutral with respect to functional change and this makes them neutral with respect to any selective advantage that nature might provide. So, the traversing of such a gap requires a truly random walk. [...] Walking along a random curvy path will take a whole lot longer. This is what happens with evolution when the pathway is neutral with regard to any sequentially selective advantages. The evolution of new functions at such levels requires exponentially greater amounts of time. Clearly then, these neutral gaps present insurmountable blockades to the evolution of new functions beyond the lowest levels of functional complexity - even for such large populations and such rapid generation turnovers as are realized in bacterial colonies (and we are talking trillions upon trillions of years for the crossing of neutral gaps averaging no more than a couple dozen residue changes wide).
Pitman specifically notes an antibiotic resistance prior to penicillin appearance, referring to R. McQuire, "Eerie: human Arctic fossils yield resistant bacteria", Medical Tribune, 12/29/1988, pp. 1, 23:
In 1988 bacteria were recovered from the colons (intestines) of Arctic explorers who froze where they died in 1845. Many decades later, these explorers where found and various studies where done on their bodies. Bacteria from their intestines were actually grown and subjected to various modern antibiotic medications. Many of the bacterial colonies grown were found to be resistant to many modern antibiotics, proving that this resistance did not evolve over just the past 60 years or so since the antibiotic age began, but where already present before humans started using antibiotics to fight bacterial infections.
Looks sensible enough for addition, although the latter example, given the article's size, fits better to antibiotic resistance, theistic evolution or related stuff. Brandmeister t 23:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Obviously there should be some mention of the Cambrian explosion (of which Darwin wrote himself), which is not there so far (excluding "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era"). Brandmeister t 17:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
But at least Gould was honest about the the lack of explanation for the Cambrian Explosion that indeed is kept out of the article while being a major controversial point between evolutionists. Classifying the Cambrian Explosion as trivial is besides reality. It still today is a question mark as it was for Darwin. Another omission in the article is the discussion on what the term evolution actually means. Besides the small definition of 'genetic mutations', the post-darwinist movement with people like Dawkins redefined the meaning of evolution with the clear notion that the process is not producing higher forms of life or 'climbing up' or necessarily produce more complex forms. With this reviewed definition of evolution one can question the falsifiability on reasonable grounds as no prediction can be made anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.216.111 ( talk) 15:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
This is obviously a good article, well-written and well-structured. But is it really appropriate for an encyclopedia? It reads more like guide to debating creationists, and obviously Wikipedia is not a guide. I would have thought that an article on such a topic would be more along the lines of, say, a brief history of evolutionary thought, who initially objected to it and why, what the responses to these objections were, who currently objects to it and why, what their reasons for objecting are, who disagrees with them, etc. I'm aware that the article already does a lot of these things, but the way that it's currently structured makes it look more like "When a creationist gives you this argument, here's what you can say back to them!" Just my two cents... 138.38.60.24 ( talk) 17:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Content has been chopped from this article recently because of a general effort to chop out all citations of sources from the AiG website. This is a problem for articles covering the creation-evolution controversy and I have made this point in a discussion over at WP:RSN. Opinions from other interested parties would be welcome. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 18:51, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I wish people would stop removing AiG citations and instead discuss here on this talk page. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 23:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Manus is correct it is well established that you can use a fringe source as a reference for what holders of a fringe viewpoint actually think. As to the notability of Answers in Genesis, it has been established by reliable sources such as: the National Center for Science Education, New Mexicans for Science and Reason, and TalkOrigins Archive, that have named it when they rebutted arguments posted on its website. I agree that Young Earth Creationist (YEC) sites like AiG and Creation Ministries International, don't represent the views of all creationists. You have lots of kinds of creationism, including multiple flavors of Old Earth creationism as well as intelligent design, and even within these broad categories there is disagreement as to what arguments should be made against biological evolution. The purpose of this article is to summarize common arguments made against evolution and the responses of the main stream scientific community to them. In that context it is perfectly reasonable to cite AiG as a source for the content of some of these objections. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I had a question about the section, "Unexplained aspects of the natural world." I'll paste it here:
In addition to complex structures and systems, among the phenomena that critics variously claim evolution cannot explain are... Most of these, such as homosexuality, hominid intelligence, instinct, emotion, photosynthesis, language, and altruism, have been well-explained by evolution, while others remain mysterious, or only have preliminary explanations. However, supporters of evolution contend that no alternative explanation has been able to adequately explain the biological origin of these phenomena either. Why aren't there any citations for articles that "explain" the phenomena? I'm curious about what they actually found in these studies. Also, when it says evolution supporters see no alternative, why don't they consider intelligent design? This whole article is basically creationism vs. evolutionism, so wouldn't an alternative explanation for the biological origin of things like intelligence and emotion be that people were created that way? I'm neutral on the issue, I just wanted to point that out and see if that should be added or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.101.210 ( talk) 04:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Some of the comments above to the effect that, "neutrality is defending the consensus" raise larger issues about Wikipedia editorial policy in general. The fact is, academia is not "neutral" or objective relative to general populace. My understanding is that academics are generally not anywhere close to having a similar ratio of political, religious, philosophical or other ideological leanings when compared to general populace. Does "neutrality" mean being a shill for academic elitism or does neutrality mean trying to cover the diversity of opinions that exist in the world non-judgementally? In common usage, neutrality means the latter, while the former is called "propoganda." -- BenMcLean ( talk) 04:49, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I would like you to provide a source that says that pre-Darwinian theories evolution. Lamarckian evolution also include common descent otherwise it couldn't be a theory of evolution but would be a theory of metamorphosis or multiple creations. IF there is inheritance then there is common descent by definition - Lamarckian evolution is inheritance of acquired traits, but it still presupposes that traits are passed along lines of descent. Darwinian evolution is different from Lamarckian in that it specifies the mode of inheritance as being descent with modification, and by including the principle of natural selection not simply common descent. Even anaximander's theory of evolution from fishes includes common descent. Please provide a source that calls Darwinian evolution "evolution through common descent" I know of none. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 23:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a stab at a compromise I consider keeping "common descent" essential, for one thing I want the link to that article, and for another I think that divergence with a branching pattern of evolution was an essential part of what the scientific community came to accept after the publication of Origin. I think other parts of this article make it clear enough that some people objected to common descent, in particular to the concept that humans shared a common ancestor with other animals. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The edits you just made on top of mine do not work as a compromise because "descent with modification" does NOT imply a branching pattern of divergence the way that "common descent" does. As we just got through arguing many pre-Darwin evolutionary theories postulated descent with modification without branching divergence. I will try again. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
For a short description of Lamarck's views see: Edward J. Larson's Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory (2004) p. 40. For a more detailed view about how various historians have interpreted Lamarck's work see: Bowler, Peter J. (2003). Evolution: The History of an Idea (3rd ed.) pp. 86-95. Both agree that Larmarck did not claim that different species shared a common ancestor. As Bowler puts it, Lamarck believed that: "...humans passed through an apelike stage in their development, but were not related to the living apes. The apes belonged to a parallel line of evolution that stepped into our shoes as we advanced to the next stage." Remembered that Larmarck believed that new lineages of simple organisms were arising all the time through spontaneous generation. Lamarck certainly believed in modfication in that he believed that the descendants of simple species were growing more complex over time. There were some 18th centery naturalists that believed that some species might share a common ancestor, Buffon thought that horeses and asses might share a common ancestor, and lions, tigers and other cats as well. However, for him this was a very limited principle, different cat species might share a common ancestor, but not cats and dogs. Pierre Louis Maupertuis also speculated about species diverging under differing conditions, but most transmutational theories focused on linear paths of transformation related to the old great chain of being idea. The idea that the diversity of life was produced by a constant branching process of divergence from common ancestors pretty well originated with Darwin and Wallace. I hope my last attempt at compromise can satisfy everyone. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 21:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Dead thread that doesn't have much to do with improving the article. |
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Statements regarding creationist and intelligent design advocacy as "mediaeval" in nature, and rendering the argument as totally ignorant is hardly neutral. If one believes another conception is false, such should be proven with facts, not subjective ad-hominem statements. The best way to prove a point is with cordiality and factuality, not ambiguos terminology and explanations. Nor reducing a belief regarded by many intellectual minds as veritable, to triviality and barbarism. Same with creationists / intelligent design advocates countering Neo-Darwinian Evolution. Wikipedia, if I understand correctly is not intended for heated debates, but objective information. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 23:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Ah, but the great chain of being is a classical conception, devised by Plato and Aristotle (Moral Implications - Humans as Animals). I apologize if I misunderstand, however, the language of the article appears to belittle the opposition. For example: "The scientific community, however, does not accept such objections as having any validity, citing detractors' misinterpretations of scientific method, evidence, and basic physical laws." Many prominent evolutionists, such as Dawkins, have stated that some form of intelligent design had to be implemented. Prominent scientists have become proponents of Intelligent Design, well aware of the scientific method and basic physical laws. I say this not to promote Creationism or Intelligent Design, but to identify what I believe to be a breach of objectivity and civility. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 00:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
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I oppose having this material in (and I think it should have its own article) and would like to lead the effort to get it out.
The entire section is nonsense: All this section boils down to is (1) 'it is bad because it leads to X, like doing/believing bad things, so let's not actually evaluate this theory for what it is on the question of whether or not its a theory based on, like, good evidence' (2) 'hey, if humans came from monkeys, I guess we're not superior to them' (3) 'everything bad is caused by this theory' (4) 'this is condusive to bad thing, so it's bad, even though you could totally believe in this and not do bad thing'
Now, of course, someone is going to point out "But these ARE common objections to evolution". Yes, but someone can say "I object to you having ice cream because the moon is made of sand". That doesn't mean we should actually treat it as an appropriate objection, as in one which is intellectually honest, as in one that is not a cookie-cutter objection that can be used against, seriously, anything.
The theory of evolution is a theory and should be evaluated on its merits. All this section is is "I object for a reason that has nothing to do with it". I don't see how that belongs on this page. I would like us to stick with legitimate and plausible objections. Byelf2007 ( talk) 2 January 2012
I think the "creation of information" section could use some more information on the mechanisms involved in producing additional genetic information. I'm not particularly well-versed in this area, and I know evolution-creationism articles can be a hot bed of controversy, so I'm reluctant to make the edit outright.
If I recall some of these mechanisms include transposable elements and insertions, but also chromosomal crossover in some rare cases? If someone who's a bit sharper on the subject could clarify, I'd be happy to make the edits. Cheers! Scientific29 ( talk) 07:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Dbrodbeck has reverted my addition of material related to Thomas Nagel's objection to Neo-Darwinism, questioning whether the material is notable. The material is notable, having received responses by Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker, and a large host of other writers, see Mind and Cosmos#External links. — goethean 16:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Jerry Fodor's argument against Darwinism ( What Darwin Got Wrong) should also be included in the article. — goethean 16:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
In the sentence: "In 1999, a new major objection to evolution appeared in Kansas: it argues that evolution is controversial or contentious", is the word major intended to be sarcasm? Which reliable sources get to accurately classify what counts as a major objection anyways? How is the use of the word "major" defined in this sentence? Can we not just remove the word "major"? Thanks. Biosthmors ( talk) 11:21, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
The majority of arguments in this article focus on how Creationists object to Evolution, and most paragraphs are along the lines of "Creationists say this..., but they are wrong because of this..., therefore this argument is invalidated".
Well, no – the argument is only invalidated if you believe in evolution. This is cyclical reasoning that hinges on unfalsifiability. Two important things are needed to improve this article –
An encyclopaedia article shouldn't have a mini-conclusion at the end of every paragraph that proves/disproves every point made (as this article does), but should merely list the arguments and allow readers to make up their minds. Hence why the article is called "Objections to Evolution", and not "The Cr*pness of Objections to Evolution". See what I'm saying? BigSteve ( talk) 10:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I think this entire entry is so incredibly biased - it should be totally neutral as all encyclopedia entries should be - it shouldn't be written by people with a vested interest in demolishing every point against evolution, because that's not what an encyclopedia is for. It should have far more scientific doubt listed, rather than focusing on creationism, because many scientists do doubt aspects of evolution and I wonder whether when someone adds such information to this entry that it is removed by the evolution-zealots who evidently patrol this page, so that only weak theistic counterpoints to evolution are permitted to remain. Please let us have an entry worthy of Wikipedia that states the facts of the matter i.e. all those points that are against aspects of evolution and please remove all the criticism and sarcasm in this entry, because it's innapropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.55.41 ( talk) 17:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with the "incredibly biased" view of this page, particularly since the "Junkyard Tornado" is flagged as "unbalanced" and that's a paragon of even-handedness compared to this screed. There is no sentence that belongs in any encyclopedia that begins with "Creationists say...", nor for that matter any intellectually-honest sentence. No, -people- say X, the argument is what the argument is, and can be made by anyone, and it is solely the counterpoint -to the argument- that is germane to an encyclopedia on a scientific topic. Address the argument, don't engage in argument by aspersions and stereotypes. It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Empiric ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
This article is far from neutral and balanced. I made some minor tweaks but they got reverted. As such, I have no choice but to add the NPOV tag. First of all, the article selectively quotes Popper. When a more complete quote was included, it got eliminated. Second, the article disagrees with what has been said at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian_rabbit and attempts to introduce the opinion of the expert quoted on that page were eliminated. I believe that encyclopedias should agree with themselves. Finally, the existence of claims such as "[Evolution] has met extremely high standards of scientific evidence" are inappropriate. There is no such thing as "extremely high" standards of scientific evidence. 190.81.202.250 ( talk) 11:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Quoting from Popper: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection, and I am glad to have the opportunity to make a recantation." Nonetheless, his quote is unnecessary here, and I've removed it. The article already covers the micro vs macro debacle elsewhere. — Jess· Δ ♥ 18:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Dramatic examples of entirely new, unique traits arising through mutation have been observed in recent years, such as the evolution of nylon-eating bacteria, which developed new enzymes to efficiently digest a material that never existed before the modern era.
Instead of saying a mutation created a "new enzyme", it would be more accurate (and less misleading) to say a mutation affected the function of an existing enzyme in the nylon-eating bacteria. Negoro's study, which is referenced on the nylonase wiki page, goes into more detail on this.
How the article is currently written, you are giving the impression that a mutation led to the development of an entirely novel enzyme, which is false. There is enough misinformation already surrounding "what mutations did", so accuracy should probably be more of a priority. 72.95.102.154 ( talk) 00:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to see a subsection on an anti-evolution argument I've heard of (the existence of but no details) out in the everyday world (the source was fundamentalist Christian groups) ... something about the impossibility of "cross-species" reproduction (or something). (Does it ring a bell for anyone? Am having trouble finding that argument doing Google searches, etc. Any help is appreciated.) Thx, Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 04:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
As an addendum -- some cross-breeds are mentioned at 10 Farm Animal Hybrids You Didn't Know Existed Markbassett ( talk) 19:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Not sure how big an issue is, but an anon editor seems to be determined to paste in a couple quotes. I rightfully reverted them a couple days ago as they were not germain to the sections he pasted them into and appeared, to me, to be of the non-NPOV variety. He then restored his edit stating I deleted his text because of disgraceful IDONTLIKEIT which of course has nothing to do with my revert as I state above and is in my edit note. I have now reverted his efit again and suggested if he wants the quotes, he needs to defend them in talk rather than build another strawman that I have a bias against his insertion.
I'm happy to be wrong, but the way to edit Wiki is NOT to just throw text into random places and call it good... Ckruschke ( talk) 16:07, 25 January 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
Seeing talk about too much creationism or wanting to see cross-species section, I then noted that title does not quite match content -- the first cite to And Still We Evolve provides some of this: Evolution that things change over time was around before Darwin and widely accepted, prominently from Cuvier, Lemarck and Owen. (Owen putting reassembled dinosaurs in the British museums made for kind of an obvious pulic impression that things had changed.) This is not the same as discussion over what the history was or points of mechanism the mentioned single origin or natural selection, which was seminal in starting research but scientists including Darwin moved away from and did not return until the modern synthesis in the 1930s.
So I'm wondering should we change title (perhaps 'Objections to Darwinism') or should we add/change sections to categorize content for the title ? Markbassett ( talk) 18:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
General conclusion seems to be keep the title and feel free to add other kinds of objection. Will see if folks want to add or find cites to larger categories of viewpoint objections (philosophical objections, evidentiary objections, etcetera) or sales type position objections (for example a taxonomy: "I do not know it", "I do not understand it", "I do not believe it", "I do not need it", "I do not like it", "I have conflicting X"). Note that 'I don't like it' valid in list of objections is not the same as Wikipedia basis of edits, it would just be reporting (w cites) on that folks do not like it. (My guess is creationists are within 'I have conflicting X', many others are within "I do not need it" just do not care, but I've only gotten the answer to whether to narrow the subject title vs add to match the title clarity that things like this are OK, not that I actually have a cite exactly for "I do not need this". Markbassett ( talk) 17:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Proposed addition immediately following “The fact is that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy. Water freezes into ice and fertilised eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism.[129]”:
It should be noted however, Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger reasoned rather than being routine, “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What Is Life? Subsequently,the “aperiodic solids” have been identified with DNA. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 13:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposed addition following the paragraph on open systems: "This claim is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems, which do not exchange matter or energy with their surroundings. Organisms, in contrast, are open systems, as they constantly exchange energy and matter with their environment: for example animals eat food and excrete waste, and radiate and absorb heat. Similarly, the Earth absorbs energy from the Sun and emits energy back into space. The Sun-Earth-space system does not violate the second law, because the enormous increase in entropy due to the Sun and Earth radiating into space dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by the existence and evolution of self-organizing life.[15][126]"
However, this application of the open system concept is inadequate in that it does not account for the different thermodynamic reactions of living and nonliving open systems. “There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and non-living open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity.” Using a thermodynamic model of a gas filled piston to represent the two cases, it is seen that biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way of nonliving systems. With a nonliving open system, energy in the form of heat and sunlight warm gas in a piston cylinder causing expansion of the gas and displacing the sliding piston rod outward. This is as a metal post will expand. Cells and organisms act upon their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety. It is as if the sliding piston rod moves outward first, the expanded gas cools and energy is extracted from the surroundings.
“Some internal mechanism suggestive of information processing seems to be in control.” ^ [1]
LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 23:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)LEBOLTZMANN2
New text to be added: However, these arguments are inadequate to answer the objections to evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics. While living systems can be open systems, there are inanimate or nonliving open systems as well. If it is significant that the enormous increase in entropy in the Sun-Earth-space system dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by existence and evolution in living open systems, then should not nonliving open systems be affected similarly? Disorder and entropy can increase over time in nonliving open systems. This is a reflection of the second law. As stated, the second law applies to all systems. It is a universal law, just as is the first law. The argument presented does not explain why in the Sun-Earth-space system inanimate systems behave as expected and living systems as anomalies.
A solar panel open system, solar energy in and chemical energy out“There are striking similarities between the responses to sunlight by a sunflower and by a solar panel. A sunflower will take in solar energy and by photosynthesis convert the energy captured from the sun into chemical energy.... A solar panel will also take in the sun’s radiation and, by the photovoltaic effect, produce electrical energy. However, an inanimate solar panel will continually deteriorate and produce less and less electrical energy.” whereas a sunflower is able to grow and produce more energy. [2] “There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and nonliving open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will thermally expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity.” Using a thermodynamic model of gas filled pistons to represent the two cases, it is seen that with the nonliving open system, energy from the surroundings, in the form of heat and sunlight, warms gas in the piston cylinder and causes expansion of the gas. The expanding gas displaces the sliding piston rod, pushing it outward. This is as a metal post will expand when warmed. Biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way of nonliving systems. Cells and organisms act on their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety. The presence of food does not compel an animal to consume it. It is as if the sliding piston rod moves outward first, the expanded gas cools and then energy is extracted from the surroundings. “Some internal mechanism suggestive of information processing seems to be in control.” [3] With both open systems, living and nonliving, being in the same Sun-Earth-space system, a difference in response indicates that something other than excess entropy is the deciding factor. Therefore, the answer appears to lie in “self-organization.” This was addressed by Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger: “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What is Life Subsequently the “aperiodic solids,” has been identified as DNA, and this is insight into why there are these different thermodynamic responses in the open systems. And while quantitative estimates of increasing entropy involved in evolution can be made, increases in energy unavailable for work or for driving chemical reactions, i.e. entropy, can be a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for significant increases in order and complexity attributed to evolution. Consider the classic “example of a glass of ice water in air at room temperature, the difference in temperature between a warm room (the surroundings) and cold glass of ice and water (the system and not part of the room), begins to be equalized as portions of the thermal energy from the warm surroundings spread to the cooler system of ice and water… the entropy of the system of ice and water has increased more than the entropy of the surrounding room has decreased.” Entropy, This example of a net increase in entropy does not cause any observed increase in complexity or size. To the contrary, the ordered ice crystals become more random as liquid water. The processes of the nonliving world increase entropy but do not produce the kind of increases in size and complexity as those attributed to biological evolution. A demonstration of increased entropy in an open system does not dismiss the second law from being in play for evolutionary processes. The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. The comparison of water freezing into ice crystals and “fertilized” eggs turning into babies, seen as routine, seems simplistic given the Schrödinger description “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos” …and “represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal.” (v.s. Schrödinger) Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also must think that evolution surpasses the routine as divine involvement is alleged: “The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” [4] LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 12:43, 13 March 2014 (UTC)LEBOLTZMANN2
Hi again, Jess . I should explain my proposal more fully. The section entitled Violation of the second law of thermodynamics does not provide an answer to the objections to evolution that are based on the second law. The second law is universal and applies to all thermodynamic systems, including all open systems in the Sun-Earth-space system. There are countless inanimate or nonliving open systems that demonstrate decline and disorder, as expected from the second law. It is the usual case. Even organisms at some point mature, age, and decline as expected from the second law. By contrast, living open systems usually display growth in size and complexity. Evolution exhibits many cases of progression from the simple to the complex, smaller to larger. There is agreement that this is an anomaly. The Sun-Earth-space system with excess entropy is essentially constant and is the same for inanimate and for living open systems. Excess entropy or being an open system in the Sun-Earth-space system cannot be the reason for a difference of decline in one and growth in another. Something else must be involved. Therefore, the explanations are not adequate to reconcile the second law with life in general and evolution in particular. This is the reason why it matters that there is a difference in response by living and nonliving systems subject to the second law in the same overall system. Biology does not have different thermodynamics than physics. The coverage in the section is not lacking in extent but in adequacy. My proposal is written in a form of argument to challenge readers to reexamine their understanding of this matter and arrive at a new conclusion. As to Schrödinger's What is Life? not being a reliable work, note: “In retrospect, Schrödinger's aperiodic crystal can be viewed as a well-reasoned theoretical prediction of what biologists should have been looking for during their search for genetic material. Both James D. Watson, and independently Francis Crick, co-discoverers of the structure of DNA, credited Schrödinger's book with presenting an early theoretical description of how the storage of genetic information would work, and each respectively acknowledged the book as a source of inspiration for their initial researches.” What Is Life? Schrödinger's perspective rather than his “nuts and bolts” biology contribution is important. The piston illustration is not for biologists but for physical chemists and physicists. I hope the questions that have been raised are answered and the proposed edit will be published. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 20:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
New proposal:While these explanations seem to explain the anomaly of evolution and the second law, they are inadequate. If the enormous increase in entropy in the Sun-Earth-space system dwarfs the local decrease in entropy and affects existence and evolution in living open systems, then nonliving open systems must be affected as well. As stated, the second law applies to all systems. It is a universal law.
A solar panel open system, solar energy in and electrical energy out.
An inconsistency can be seen in: “There are striking similarities between the responses to sunlight by a sunflower and by a solar panel. A sunflower will take in solar energy and by photosynthesis convert the energy captured from the sun into chemical energy.... A solar panel will also take in the sun’s radiation and, by the photovoltaic effect, produce electrical energy. However, an inanimate solar panel will continually deteriorate and produce less and less electrical energy.” whereas a sunflower is able to grow and produce more energy. [5]
With both open systems, living and nonliving, being in the same Sun-Earth-space system, a difference in response indicates that something other than excess entropy is the deciding factor. Therefore, the answer appears to lie in “self-organization.” This was addressed by Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger: “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What is Life Subsequently the “aperiodic solids,” has been identified as DNA, and this is insight into why there are these different thermodynamic responses in the open systems.
And while quantitative estimates of increasing entropy involved in evolution can be made, increases in energy unavailable for work or for driving chemical reactions, i.e. entropy, can be a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for significant increases in order and complexity attributed to evolution. [6]
The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. The comparison of water freezing into ice crystals and “fertilized” eggs turning into babies, seen as routine, seems simplistic given the Schrödinger description “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos” …and “represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal.” (v.s. Schrödinger) Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also must think that evolution surpasses the routine as divine involvement is alleged: “The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” [7] LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 18:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Considering the current justification is inadequate to explain the anomaly of evolution and the second law, there is need for a correction. To appreciate the deficiency is to begin to understand the topic. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 12:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the claim that homosexuality is "well-explained" by evolution. I don't know how to break it to whoever added that, but homosexuality, and sexual orientation in general, remain controversial subjects, and it's certainly not true that they have been "well-explained", either by evolution or by anything else. There are plenty of theories, but there is no generally accepted explanation. In any case, the "well-explained by evolution" claim did not seem to have a proper source. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to express that in many cases these views are exclusively held by creationists. While this is mostly true it is a generalization, these points aren't held true by solely creationists. My point being the use of the word creationists is in place where "some" or "many" will suffice and fits better. Essentially this article needs a minor tidy up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.254.85 ( talk) 04:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I suggest redoing the title to match content here. Under "Instability of evidence" the material dopes not seem to be instability -- it starts by saying "A related objection is that evolution is based on unreliable evidence.", and goes on into the frauds such as Piltdown man. Under "Unreliable or inconsistent evidence" the material seems to be more about the methods for determining dates of events, radiology and geology. So how about these changes:
Markbassett ( talk) 14:53, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
The section that talks about the criticism of evolution that states that it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics correctly points out that this law is incorrectly applied since the Earth and living beings are not closed systems.
Although the section also clarifies that entropy is "a measure of the dispersal of energy in a physical system so that it is not available to do mechanical work", the wording of the section suggests that the 2nd law of thermodynamics can even be applied to the complexity of living organisms.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics pertains the transfer of heat on closed systems, it happens that this law can also be expressed in terms of entropy. However, here 'entropy' and 'closed system' have precise mathematical and physical meanings and 'entropy' even has a precise physical unit (Joules/Kelvin).
This way of criticizing evolution suggest that the 'entropy' of the 2nd law refers to the "dictionary" definition of 'entropy' that pertains the degree of disorder (wich is a very subjective definition) wich in turn can be related (again, in a very subjective way) to the complexity of some subject, object or system (again, very subjective definitions for the words 'complexity' and 'system').
The main reason why this particular way of criticizing evolution is flawed is not that the earth or living organisms are not closed systems, that only makes sense after you make the concession that you can apply the 2nd law of thermodynamics in the first place, wich I think is not being remarked enough in this particular section.
Plaga701 (
talk) 08:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
<br\> Where on earth did you get that I had a personal bias? Even though I am an atheist, that has nothing to do with the physical definition of entropy. The source that you provided states:
after that it says:
This is an attempt to fit the concept of logical entropy in the framework of the 2lotd, wich is not invalid or preposterous, but failure to do so in a way that encircles every single thing we classify as a system (be it biological, social, mathematical...) does not allow to say that the systems that fail to fit in this new law break the 2lotd. It just allow us to say that the 2lotd cannot be adapted to represent these systems.<br\>
It's true that the 2lotd can be applied to closed and open systems, but the issue remains the same, the entropy word is miss-used, because it does not pertain any notion or concept of order or complexity when in the context of the 2lotd, it pertains Joules over Kelvin. In blunt terms (I know biologists and physicist are gonna curse me for what I'm about to do), the entropy change between me and the common ancestor I share would have been to be messured (withing the context of the 2lotd) by taking the average tempeture of the ancestor, every one on it's descendants up until my father and mother while taking the amount of heat introduced in these aforementioned primates, doing the same with me, and the applying the formula deltaS = amount_of_heat_taken/origal_tempeture, and even then it wouldn't make any kind of sense (it doesn't make sense the way it's written now), because the second law of thermodynamics talks about physical entropy, not the perceived complexity of the descendants of an organism over time, wich is a heavily subjective notion that can change from one culture to another and over time.
Plaga701 (
talk) 00:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Plaga701 ( talk) 01:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html<br\> http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-and-entropy<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/second-law<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/entropy-intuition<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/reconciling-thermodynamic-and-state-definitions-of-entropy<br\> I'm having a hard time finding sourced sources for basic physical concepts like entropy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plaga701 ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
If nobody disagrees, I'll add the previous paragraph the the section pertaining the 2nd law with the sources that I provided plus this one: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/189035/entropy<br\> Plaga701 ( talk) 14:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Starting in the "Religious Nature" there are several indented lines which are not in the form of encyclopedic information, but instead read like a verbal or personal argument against the previous writing. It may have citations, but it is quite clearly inappropriate wording and styling for Wikipedia. They need extensive re-writing; if that is not possible, then they must be purged, and moved to the Talk page. 96.28.157.126 ( talk) 13:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
This article reads as if it were written by an expert on the subject who has a strong objection to the nature of this article. After every example of an objection to evolution there are subsequent paragraphs that refute each objection. These paragraphs of refute are more appropriately placed in a "Criticisms" section at or near the end of the article and in a proportion relatively small to that of the main article so that the major written proportion of the page is given to the articles main subject matter 'objections to evolution.' Within the criticisms column and link should be made to a page expanding on the arguments for evolution.
This article also contains numerous weasel words so that a bias is given towards a rebuttal of objections to evolution, for example the following weasel words can be found thought the article and are stared within their respective sentences; 1)Even though biology has long shown that humans are animals, ***some people*** feel that humans should be considered separate from, and/or superior to, animals. 2)Other common objections to evolution ***allege*** that evolution leads to objectionable results, including bad beliefs, behaviors, and events. 3)These objections have been rejected by most scientists, as have ***claims*** that intelligent design, or any other creationist explanation, meets the basic scientific standards that would be required to make them scientific alternatives to evolution. 4)In the years since Behe proposed irreducible complexity, new developments and advances in biology, such as an improved understanding of the evolution of flagella,[132] have already ***undermined*** these arguments.
Other weasel techniques included in this article are use of quotations around words when they are not grammatically needed such as; "Critics of evolution frequently assert that evolution is "just a theory,"..." and "or that certain fossils, such as polystrate fossils, are seemingly "out of place"..."
Lastly while the article does contain many appropriate references there are instances where the writer does not reference material which need research to support their claims, such as
1)In response, creationists have disputed the level of scientific support for evolution. The Discovery Institute has gathered over 600 scientists since 2001 to sign "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" in order to show that there are a number of scientists who dispute what they refer to as "Darwinian evolution". This statement did not profess outright disbelief in evolution, but expressed skepticism as to the ability of "random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life." Several counter-petitions have been launched in turn, including A Scientific Support for Darwinism, which gathered over 7,000 signatures in four days, and Project Steve, a tongue-in-cheek petition that has gathered 1,151 (as of January 18, 2011) evolution-supporting scientists named "Steve". 2) Rather, they dispute the occurrence of major evolutionary changes over long periods of time, which by definition cannot be directly observed, only inferred from microevolutionary processes and the traces of macroevolutionary ones. 3)Supporters of evolution dismiss such criticisms as counterfactual, and some argue that the opposite seems to be the case.
This article as a whole tends to speak more about how 'Objections to evolution' can be proven wrong than it speaks about the objections themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbeals123 ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 8 August 2011
Still, I think Bbeals123 has a point regarding the unsourced material and weasel words? Does anybody else feel the same way?? Plaga701 ( talk) 13:52, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Just read through this page and it's different from other objection/criticism pages I've read. It seems bias when it should be factual. Wikipedia is not a pursuasive essay. Daniel ( talk) 22:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Weight doesn't amount to a bias. It's fair to give something lesser weight which is what this article is but the bias isn't needed. wikipedia:fringe theories Daniel ( talk) 23:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
AGAIN the lack of sources/information isn't the issue. How the sources/information is treated IS the issue. To prove my point, here is a random section of the text under Creation of information:
Note the tone and inherent bias of the choice of words.
These are six examples in just 3 small paragraphs highlighting what I'm am seeing throughout the entire page. THIS is the problem. Ckruschke ( talk) 19:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke
I reverted this addition,
The obvious exception is group of biologists, prominent proponents of ID, such as Jonathan Wells, Scott Minnich and Dean H. Kenyon, Professor Emeritus of Biology at San Francisco State University, co-author of evolutionary book Biochemical Predestination, who claimed to abandon evolutionary position after being challenged by his student with question how could proteins in first living systems assemble without the help of genetic instructions.
because the "prominent proponents of ID" have repeatedly stated that they have religious and not scientific objections to Evolutionary Biology. And that there is no references cited to support suggesting that there is a sizable minority of biologists who support Intelligent Design while rejecting "evolutionary position"-- Mr Fink ( talk) 15:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Pls. explain what is extremely questionable for you at the statement: "The obvious exception is group of biologists, prominent proponents of ID, such as Jonathan Wells, Scott Minnich and Dean H. Kenyon, Professor Emeritus of Biology at San Francisco State University, co-author of evolutionary book Biochemical Predestination, who claimed to abandon evolutionary position after being challenged by his student with question how could proteins in first living systems assemble without the help of genetic instructions."
??? Pls. explain. You're starting to use old-fashioned tactic, driving discussion to distraction, is really Mr Fink not able to provide his own reasoning of what he did so that he needs your help? Did you force him to perform the change? So that now he needs to rely on you when it comes to provision of any rationale of what he did?-- Stephfo ( talk) 18:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
@Stephfo: It is now YOUR responsibility to explain why this addition belongs in the article, providing reliable third-party sources, as Apokryltaros asked you to. You may not turn the situation around and pester him to explain himself further, which he has, and then accuse him of "not standing up for his original reasoning", as you put it.
Provide reliable sources that meet QP policy requirements!!!! Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 17:43, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Pls. explain, or are you not able?-- Stephfo ( talk) 19:52, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
To be clear, I WAS NOT AGREEING WITH STEPHFO, HOWEVER HIS EDIT MADE IT LOOK THAT WAY. [1]. So I was talking about Stephfo's beavhiour that we have to deal with every week or so, not anyone else. This is tiring as hell, and it also is starting to piss me off, learn how things work here, and do not screw with others' edits on the page here, man.... Dbrodbeck ( talk) 20:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
I have three problems with this text:
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk(
P) 06:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any other questions? Plaga701 ( talk) 13:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
or [2]; maybe this would help you also: [3]
This WP:DEADHORSE issue has been argued to death in #Revert Explanation above. There is no WP:CONSENSUS for this poorly sourced & POV edit. Give it a rest! |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Pls. explain in detail, what exactly you regard for "poor grammar", poor formatting, and what changes you suggest in that respect and also why you refer to University of San Francisco or University of Texas as "poor references". Furthermore, the WP:UNDUE weighgt is contradicting, because if you stand up for what you claim, you should remove the mention of ID from article page as well, should you regard the ID movement and the and its proponents for UNDUE. What exactly do you regard in given sentence removed by you for UNDUE, are you able to support your claim with any demonstration at all? -- Stephfo ( talk) 10:48, 3 September 2011 (UTC) |
There is a clear WP:CONSENSUS against Stephfo's edit on this talkpage. Further attempts to unilaterally impose it on the article is therefore WP:EDITWARring and further attempts to argue it here on article talk are WP:DEADHORSE -- and both are WP:Disruptive editing. I would therefore recommend that if Stephfo wishes to argue this further, that he engage in the WP:DISPUTE resolution process, e.g. by calling a WP:RFC, or making a post on an appropriate noticeboard (e.g. WP:FTN or WP:NPOVN). Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Creation-science and ID proponents constantly repeat the canard that scientists today are questioning whether evolution actually occurred. Of course, the small number of scientists who reject evolution appears to be restricted to supporters of these two movements.
I've edited the article to make a compromise between the two parties here.
— Anupam
I've stumbled upon these interesting concerns while searching:
The problem for evolution comes when more than a single point mutation is needed to achieve a given function - such as appears to be the case with the evolution of the penicillinase and other such relatively simple single-protein enzymatic-type functions. [..] For all cellular functions there is a minimum part requirement consisting of amino acids in specific sequences. [...] Despite the fact that many genes and proteins are quite flexible in their sequencing, all of them have a limit beyond which all beneficial function is lost. [...] As the level of functional complexity increases, the average neutral gaps between potentially beneficial proteins also increase. With the increase in neutral gaps comes a decrease in functional overlap between various sequences. At this point, multiple neutral mutations are required before a new beneficial function can be realized. These multiple mutations are invisible to the powers of natural selection. [...] They are neutral with respect to functional change and this makes them neutral with respect to any selective advantage that nature might provide. So, the traversing of such a gap requires a truly random walk. [...] Walking along a random curvy path will take a whole lot longer. This is what happens with evolution when the pathway is neutral with regard to any sequentially selective advantages. The evolution of new functions at such levels requires exponentially greater amounts of time. Clearly then, these neutral gaps present insurmountable blockades to the evolution of new functions beyond the lowest levels of functional complexity - even for such large populations and such rapid generation turnovers as are realized in bacterial colonies (and we are talking trillions upon trillions of years for the crossing of neutral gaps averaging no more than a couple dozen residue changes wide).
Pitman specifically notes an antibiotic resistance prior to penicillin appearance, referring to R. McQuire, "Eerie: human Arctic fossils yield resistant bacteria", Medical Tribune, 12/29/1988, pp. 1, 23:
In 1988 bacteria were recovered from the colons (intestines) of Arctic explorers who froze where they died in 1845. Many decades later, these explorers where found and various studies where done on their bodies. Bacteria from their intestines were actually grown and subjected to various modern antibiotic medications. Many of the bacterial colonies grown were found to be resistant to many modern antibiotics, proving that this resistance did not evolve over just the past 60 years or so since the antibiotic age began, but where already present before humans started using antibiotics to fight bacterial infections.
Looks sensible enough for addition, although the latter example, given the article's size, fits better to antibiotic resistance, theistic evolution or related stuff. Brandmeister t 23:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Obviously there should be some mention of the Cambrian explosion (of which Darwin wrote himself), which is not there so far (excluding "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era"). Brandmeister t 17:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
But at least Gould was honest about the the lack of explanation for the Cambrian Explosion that indeed is kept out of the article while being a major controversial point between evolutionists. Classifying the Cambrian Explosion as trivial is besides reality. It still today is a question mark as it was for Darwin. Another omission in the article is the discussion on what the term evolution actually means. Besides the small definition of 'genetic mutations', the post-darwinist movement with people like Dawkins redefined the meaning of evolution with the clear notion that the process is not producing higher forms of life or 'climbing up' or necessarily produce more complex forms. With this reviewed definition of evolution one can question the falsifiability on reasonable grounds as no prediction can be made anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.216.111 ( talk) 15:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
This is obviously a good article, well-written and well-structured. But is it really appropriate for an encyclopedia? It reads more like guide to debating creationists, and obviously Wikipedia is not a guide. I would have thought that an article on such a topic would be more along the lines of, say, a brief history of evolutionary thought, who initially objected to it and why, what the responses to these objections were, who currently objects to it and why, what their reasons for objecting are, who disagrees with them, etc. I'm aware that the article already does a lot of these things, but the way that it's currently structured makes it look more like "When a creationist gives you this argument, here's what you can say back to them!" Just my two cents... 138.38.60.24 ( talk) 17:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Content has been chopped from this article recently because of a general effort to chop out all citations of sources from the AiG website. This is a problem for articles covering the creation-evolution controversy and I have made this point in a discussion over at WP:RSN. Opinions from other interested parties would be welcome. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 18:51, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I wish people would stop removing AiG citations and instead discuss here on this talk page. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 23:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Manus is correct it is well established that you can use a fringe source as a reference for what holders of a fringe viewpoint actually think. As to the notability of Answers in Genesis, it has been established by reliable sources such as: the National Center for Science Education, New Mexicans for Science and Reason, and TalkOrigins Archive, that have named it when they rebutted arguments posted on its website. I agree that Young Earth Creationist (YEC) sites like AiG and Creation Ministries International, don't represent the views of all creationists. You have lots of kinds of creationism, including multiple flavors of Old Earth creationism as well as intelligent design, and even within these broad categories there is disagreement as to what arguments should be made against biological evolution. The purpose of this article is to summarize common arguments made against evolution and the responses of the main stream scientific community to them. In that context it is perfectly reasonable to cite AiG as a source for the content of some of these objections. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I had a question about the section, "Unexplained aspects of the natural world." I'll paste it here:
In addition to complex structures and systems, among the phenomena that critics variously claim evolution cannot explain are... Most of these, such as homosexuality, hominid intelligence, instinct, emotion, photosynthesis, language, and altruism, have been well-explained by evolution, while others remain mysterious, or only have preliminary explanations. However, supporters of evolution contend that no alternative explanation has been able to adequately explain the biological origin of these phenomena either. Why aren't there any citations for articles that "explain" the phenomena? I'm curious about what they actually found in these studies. Also, when it says evolution supporters see no alternative, why don't they consider intelligent design? This whole article is basically creationism vs. evolutionism, so wouldn't an alternative explanation for the biological origin of things like intelligence and emotion be that people were created that way? I'm neutral on the issue, I just wanted to point that out and see if that should be added or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.101.210 ( talk) 04:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Some of the comments above to the effect that, "neutrality is defending the consensus" raise larger issues about Wikipedia editorial policy in general. The fact is, academia is not "neutral" or objective relative to general populace. My understanding is that academics are generally not anywhere close to having a similar ratio of political, religious, philosophical or other ideological leanings when compared to general populace. Does "neutrality" mean being a shill for academic elitism or does neutrality mean trying to cover the diversity of opinions that exist in the world non-judgementally? In common usage, neutrality means the latter, while the former is called "propoganda." -- BenMcLean ( talk) 04:49, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I would like you to provide a source that says that pre-Darwinian theories evolution. Lamarckian evolution also include common descent otherwise it couldn't be a theory of evolution but would be a theory of metamorphosis or multiple creations. IF there is inheritance then there is common descent by definition - Lamarckian evolution is inheritance of acquired traits, but it still presupposes that traits are passed along lines of descent. Darwinian evolution is different from Lamarckian in that it specifies the mode of inheritance as being descent with modification, and by including the principle of natural selection not simply common descent. Even anaximander's theory of evolution from fishes includes common descent. Please provide a source that calls Darwinian evolution "evolution through common descent" I know of none. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 23:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a stab at a compromise I consider keeping "common descent" essential, for one thing I want the link to that article, and for another I think that divergence with a branching pattern of evolution was an essential part of what the scientific community came to accept after the publication of Origin. I think other parts of this article make it clear enough that some people objected to common descent, in particular to the concept that humans shared a common ancestor with other animals. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The edits you just made on top of mine do not work as a compromise because "descent with modification" does NOT imply a branching pattern of divergence the way that "common descent" does. As we just got through arguing many pre-Darwin evolutionary theories postulated descent with modification without branching divergence. I will try again. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 20:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
For a short description of Lamarck's views see: Edward J. Larson's Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory (2004) p. 40. For a more detailed view about how various historians have interpreted Lamarck's work see: Bowler, Peter J. (2003). Evolution: The History of an Idea (3rd ed.) pp. 86-95. Both agree that Larmarck did not claim that different species shared a common ancestor. As Bowler puts it, Lamarck believed that: "...humans passed through an apelike stage in their development, but were not related to the living apes. The apes belonged to a parallel line of evolution that stepped into our shoes as we advanced to the next stage." Remembered that Larmarck believed that new lineages of simple organisms were arising all the time through spontaneous generation. Lamarck certainly believed in modfication in that he believed that the descendants of simple species were growing more complex over time. There were some 18th centery naturalists that believed that some species might share a common ancestor, Buffon thought that horeses and asses might share a common ancestor, and lions, tigers and other cats as well. However, for him this was a very limited principle, different cat species might share a common ancestor, but not cats and dogs. Pierre Louis Maupertuis also speculated about species diverging under differing conditions, but most transmutational theories focused on linear paths of transformation related to the old great chain of being idea. The idea that the diversity of life was produced by a constant branching process of divergence from common ancestors pretty well originated with Darwin and Wallace. I hope my last attempt at compromise can satisfy everyone. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 21:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Dead thread that doesn't have much to do with improving the article. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statements regarding creationist and intelligent design advocacy as "mediaeval" in nature, and rendering the argument as totally ignorant is hardly neutral. If one believes another conception is false, such should be proven with facts, not subjective ad-hominem statements. The best way to prove a point is with cordiality and factuality, not ambiguos terminology and explanations. Nor reducing a belief regarded by many intellectual minds as veritable, to triviality and barbarism. Same with creationists / intelligent design advocates countering Neo-Darwinian Evolution. Wikipedia, if I understand correctly is not intended for heated debates, but objective information. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 23:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Ah, but the great chain of being is a classical conception, devised by Plato and Aristotle (Moral Implications - Humans as Animals). I apologize if I misunderstand, however, the language of the article appears to belittle the opposition. For example: "The scientific community, however, does not accept such objections as having any validity, citing detractors' misinterpretations of scientific method, evidence, and basic physical laws." Many prominent evolutionists, such as Dawkins, have stated that some form of intelligent design had to be implemented. Prominent scientists have become proponents of Intelligent Design, well aware of the scientific method and basic physical laws. I say this not to promote Creationism or Intelligent Design, but to identify what I believe to be a breach of objectivity and civility. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 00:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
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I oppose having this material in (and I think it should have its own article) and would like to lead the effort to get it out.
The entire section is nonsense: All this section boils down to is (1) 'it is bad because it leads to X, like doing/believing bad things, so let's not actually evaluate this theory for what it is on the question of whether or not its a theory based on, like, good evidence' (2) 'hey, if humans came from monkeys, I guess we're not superior to them' (3) 'everything bad is caused by this theory' (4) 'this is condusive to bad thing, so it's bad, even though you could totally believe in this and not do bad thing'
Now, of course, someone is going to point out "But these ARE common objections to evolution". Yes, but someone can say "I object to you having ice cream because the moon is made of sand". That doesn't mean we should actually treat it as an appropriate objection, as in one which is intellectually honest, as in one that is not a cookie-cutter objection that can be used against, seriously, anything.
The theory of evolution is a theory and should be evaluated on its merits. All this section is is "I object for a reason that has nothing to do with it". I don't see how that belongs on this page. I would like us to stick with legitimate and plausible objections. Byelf2007 ( talk) 2 January 2012
I think the "creation of information" section could use some more information on the mechanisms involved in producing additional genetic information. I'm not particularly well-versed in this area, and I know evolution-creationism articles can be a hot bed of controversy, so I'm reluctant to make the edit outright.
If I recall some of these mechanisms include transposable elements and insertions, but also chromosomal crossover in some rare cases? If someone who's a bit sharper on the subject could clarify, I'd be happy to make the edits. Cheers! Scientific29 ( talk) 07:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Dbrodbeck has reverted my addition of material related to Thomas Nagel's objection to Neo-Darwinism, questioning whether the material is notable. The material is notable, having received responses by Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker, and a large host of other writers, see Mind and Cosmos#External links. — goethean 16:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Jerry Fodor's argument against Darwinism ( What Darwin Got Wrong) should also be included in the article. — goethean 16:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
In the sentence: "In 1999, a new major objection to evolution appeared in Kansas: it argues that evolution is controversial or contentious", is the word major intended to be sarcasm? Which reliable sources get to accurately classify what counts as a major objection anyways? How is the use of the word "major" defined in this sentence? Can we not just remove the word "major"? Thanks. Biosthmors ( talk) 11:21, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
The majority of arguments in this article focus on how Creationists object to Evolution, and most paragraphs are along the lines of "Creationists say this..., but they are wrong because of this..., therefore this argument is invalidated".
Well, no – the argument is only invalidated if you believe in evolution. This is cyclical reasoning that hinges on unfalsifiability. Two important things are needed to improve this article –
An encyclopaedia article shouldn't have a mini-conclusion at the end of every paragraph that proves/disproves every point made (as this article does), but should merely list the arguments and allow readers to make up their minds. Hence why the article is called "Objections to Evolution", and not "The Cr*pness of Objections to Evolution". See what I'm saying? BigSteve ( talk) 10:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I think this entire entry is so incredibly biased - it should be totally neutral as all encyclopedia entries should be - it shouldn't be written by people with a vested interest in demolishing every point against evolution, because that's not what an encyclopedia is for. It should have far more scientific doubt listed, rather than focusing on creationism, because many scientists do doubt aspects of evolution and I wonder whether when someone adds such information to this entry that it is removed by the evolution-zealots who evidently patrol this page, so that only weak theistic counterpoints to evolution are permitted to remain. Please let us have an entry worthy of Wikipedia that states the facts of the matter i.e. all those points that are against aspects of evolution and please remove all the criticism and sarcasm in this entry, because it's innapropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.55.41 ( talk) 17:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with the "incredibly biased" view of this page, particularly since the "Junkyard Tornado" is flagged as "unbalanced" and that's a paragon of even-handedness compared to this screed. There is no sentence that belongs in any encyclopedia that begins with "Creationists say...", nor for that matter any intellectually-honest sentence. No, -people- say X, the argument is what the argument is, and can be made by anyone, and it is solely the counterpoint -to the argument- that is germane to an encyclopedia on a scientific topic. Address the argument, don't engage in argument by aspersions and stereotypes. It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Empiric ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
This article is far from neutral and balanced. I made some minor tweaks but they got reverted. As such, I have no choice but to add the NPOV tag. First of all, the article selectively quotes Popper. When a more complete quote was included, it got eliminated. Second, the article disagrees with what has been said at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian_rabbit and attempts to introduce the opinion of the expert quoted on that page were eliminated. I believe that encyclopedias should agree with themselves. Finally, the existence of claims such as "[Evolution] has met extremely high standards of scientific evidence" are inappropriate. There is no such thing as "extremely high" standards of scientific evidence. 190.81.202.250 ( talk) 11:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Quoting from Popper: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection, and I am glad to have the opportunity to make a recantation." Nonetheless, his quote is unnecessary here, and I've removed it. The article already covers the micro vs macro debacle elsewhere. — Jess· Δ ♥ 18:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Dramatic examples of entirely new, unique traits arising through mutation have been observed in recent years, such as the evolution of nylon-eating bacteria, which developed new enzymes to efficiently digest a material that never existed before the modern era.
Instead of saying a mutation created a "new enzyme", it would be more accurate (and less misleading) to say a mutation affected the function of an existing enzyme in the nylon-eating bacteria. Negoro's study, which is referenced on the nylonase wiki page, goes into more detail on this.
How the article is currently written, you are giving the impression that a mutation led to the development of an entirely novel enzyme, which is false. There is enough misinformation already surrounding "what mutations did", so accuracy should probably be more of a priority. 72.95.102.154 ( talk) 00:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to see a subsection on an anti-evolution argument I've heard of (the existence of but no details) out in the everyday world (the source was fundamentalist Christian groups) ... something about the impossibility of "cross-species" reproduction (or something). (Does it ring a bell for anyone? Am having trouble finding that argument doing Google searches, etc. Any help is appreciated.) Thx, Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 04:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
As an addendum -- some cross-breeds are mentioned at 10 Farm Animal Hybrids You Didn't Know Existed Markbassett ( talk) 19:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Not sure how big an issue is, but an anon editor seems to be determined to paste in a couple quotes. I rightfully reverted them a couple days ago as they were not germain to the sections he pasted them into and appeared, to me, to be of the non-NPOV variety. He then restored his edit stating I deleted his text because of disgraceful IDONTLIKEIT which of course has nothing to do with my revert as I state above and is in my edit note. I have now reverted his efit again and suggested if he wants the quotes, he needs to defend them in talk rather than build another strawman that I have a bias against his insertion.
I'm happy to be wrong, but the way to edit Wiki is NOT to just throw text into random places and call it good... Ckruschke ( talk) 16:07, 25 January 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
Seeing talk about too much creationism or wanting to see cross-species section, I then noted that title does not quite match content -- the first cite to And Still We Evolve provides some of this: Evolution that things change over time was around before Darwin and widely accepted, prominently from Cuvier, Lemarck and Owen. (Owen putting reassembled dinosaurs in the British museums made for kind of an obvious pulic impression that things had changed.) This is not the same as discussion over what the history was or points of mechanism the mentioned single origin or natural selection, which was seminal in starting research but scientists including Darwin moved away from and did not return until the modern synthesis in the 1930s.
So I'm wondering should we change title (perhaps 'Objections to Darwinism') or should we add/change sections to categorize content for the title ? Markbassett ( talk) 18:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
General conclusion seems to be keep the title and feel free to add other kinds of objection. Will see if folks want to add or find cites to larger categories of viewpoint objections (philosophical objections, evidentiary objections, etcetera) or sales type position objections (for example a taxonomy: "I do not know it", "I do not understand it", "I do not believe it", "I do not need it", "I do not like it", "I have conflicting X"). Note that 'I don't like it' valid in list of objections is not the same as Wikipedia basis of edits, it would just be reporting (w cites) on that folks do not like it. (My guess is creationists are within 'I have conflicting X', many others are within "I do not need it" just do not care, but I've only gotten the answer to whether to narrow the subject title vs add to match the title clarity that things like this are OK, not that I actually have a cite exactly for "I do not need this". Markbassett ( talk) 17:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Proposed addition immediately following “The fact is that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy. Water freezes into ice and fertilised eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism.[129]”:
It should be noted however, Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger reasoned rather than being routine, “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What Is Life? Subsequently,the “aperiodic solids” have been identified with DNA. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 13:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposed addition following the paragraph on open systems: "This claim is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems, which do not exchange matter or energy with their surroundings. Organisms, in contrast, are open systems, as they constantly exchange energy and matter with their environment: for example animals eat food and excrete waste, and radiate and absorb heat. Similarly, the Earth absorbs energy from the Sun and emits energy back into space. The Sun-Earth-space system does not violate the second law, because the enormous increase in entropy due to the Sun and Earth radiating into space dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by the existence and evolution of self-organizing life.[15][126]"
However, this application of the open system concept is inadequate in that it does not account for the different thermodynamic reactions of living and nonliving open systems. “There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and non-living open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity.” Using a thermodynamic model of a gas filled piston to represent the two cases, it is seen that biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way of nonliving systems. With a nonliving open system, energy in the form of heat and sunlight warm gas in a piston cylinder causing expansion of the gas and displacing the sliding piston rod outward. This is as a metal post will expand. Cells and organisms act upon their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety. It is as if the sliding piston rod moves outward first, the expanded gas cools and energy is extracted from the surroundings.
“Some internal mechanism suggestive of information processing seems to be in control.” ^ [1]
LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 23:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)LEBOLTZMANN2
New text to be added: However, these arguments are inadequate to answer the objections to evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics. While living systems can be open systems, there are inanimate or nonliving open systems as well. If it is significant that the enormous increase in entropy in the Sun-Earth-space system dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by existence and evolution in living open systems, then should not nonliving open systems be affected similarly? Disorder and entropy can increase over time in nonliving open systems. This is a reflection of the second law. As stated, the second law applies to all systems. It is a universal law, just as is the first law. The argument presented does not explain why in the Sun-Earth-space system inanimate systems behave as expected and living systems as anomalies.
A solar panel open system, solar energy in and chemical energy out“There are striking similarities between the responses to sunlight by a sunflower and by a solar panel. A sunflower will take in solar energy and by photosynthesis convert the energy captured from the sun into chemical energy.... A solar panel will also take in the sun’s radiation and, by the photovoltaic effect, produce electrical energy. However, an inanimate solar panel will continually deteriorate and produce less and less electrical energy.” whereas a sunflower is able to grow and produce more energy. [2] “There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and nonliving open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will thermally expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity.” Using a thermodynamic model of gas filled pistons to represent the two cases, it is seen that with the nonliving open system, energy from the surroundings, in the form of heat and sunlight, warms gas in the piston cylinder and causes expansion of the gas. The expanding gas displaces the sliding piston rod, pushing it outward. This is as a metal post will expand when warmed. Biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way of nonliving systems. Cells and organisms act on their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety. The presence of food does not compel an animal to consume it. It is as if the sliding piston rod moves outward first, the expanded gas cools and then energy is extracted from the surroundings. “Some internal mechanism suggestive of information processing seems to be in control.” [3] With both open systems, living and nonliving, being in the same Sun-Earth-space system, a difference in response indicates that something other than excess entropy is the deciding factor. Therefore, the answer appears to lie in “self-organization.” This was addressed by Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger: “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What is Life Subsequently the “aperiodic solids,” has been identified as DNA, and this is insight into why there are these different thermodynamic responses in the open systems. And while quantitative estimates of increasing entropy involved in evolution can be made, increases in energy unavailable for work or for driving chemical reactions, i.e. entropy, can be a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for significant increases in order and complexity attributed to evolution. Consider the classic “example of a glass of ice water in air at room temperature, the difference in temperature between a warm room (the surroundings) and cold glass of ice and water (the system and not part of the room), begins to be equalized as portions of the thermal energy from the warm surroundings spread to the cooler system of ice and water… the entropy of the system of ice and water has increased more than the entropy of the surrounding room has decreased.” Entropy, This example of a net increase in entropy does not cause any observed increase in complexity or size. To the contrary, the ordered ice crystals become more random as liquid water. The processes of the nonliving world increase entropy but do not produce the kind of increases in size and complexity as those attributed to biological evolution. A demonstration of increased entropy in an open system does not dismiss the second law from being in play for evolutionary processes. The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. The comparison of water freezing into ice crystals and “fertilized” eggs turning into babies, seen as routine, seems simplistic given the Schrödinger description “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos” …and “represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal.” (v.s. Schrödinger) Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also must think that evolution surpasses the routine as divine involvement is alleged: “The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” [4] LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 12:43, 13 March 2014 (UTC)LEBOLTZMANN2
Hi again, Jess . I should explain my proposal more fully. The section entitled Violation of the second law of thermodynamics does not provide an answer to the objections to evolution that are based on the second law. The second law is universal and applies to all thermodynamic systems, including all open systems in the Sun-Earth-space system. There are countless inanimate or nonliving open systems that demonstrate decline and disorder, as expected from the second law. It is the usual case. Even organisms at some point mature, age, and decline as expected from the second law. By contrast, living open systems usually display growth in size and complexity. Evolution exhibits many cases of progression from the simple to the complex, smaller to larger. There is agreement that this is an anomaly. The Sun-Earth-space system with excess entropy is essentially constant and is the same for inanimate and for living open systems. Excess entropy or being an open system in the Sun-Earth-space system cannot be the reason for a difference of decline in one and growth in another. Something else must be involved. Therefore, the explanations are not adequate to reconcile the second law with life in general and evolution in particular. This is the reason why it matters that there is a difference in response by living and nonliving systems subject to the second law in the same overall system. Biology does not have different thermodynamics than physics. The coverage in the section is not lacking in extent but in adequacy. My proposal is written in a form of argument to challenge readers to reexamine their understanding of this matter and arrive at a new conclusion. As to Schrödinger's What is Life? not being a reliable work, note: “In retrospect, Schrödinger's aperiodic crystal can be viewed as a well-reasoned theoretical prediction of what biologists should have been looking for during their search for genetic material. Both James D. Watson, and independently Francis Crick, co-discoverers of the structure of DNA, credited Schrödinger's book with presenting an early theoretical description of how the storage of genetic information would work, and each respectively acknowledged the book as a source of inspiration for their initial researches.” What Is Life? Schrödinger's perspective rather than his “nuts and bolts” biology contribution is important. The piston illustration is not for biologists but for physical chemists and physicists. I hope the questions that have been raised are answered and the proposed edit will be published. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 20:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
New proposal:While these explanations seem to explain the anomaly of evolution and the second law, they are inadequate. If the enormous increase in entropy in the Sun-Earth-space system dwarfs the local decrease in entropy and affects existence and evolution in living open systems, then nonliving open systems must be affected as well. As stated, the second law applies to all systems. It is a universal law.
A solar panel open system, solar energy in and electrical energy out.
An inconsistency can be seen in: “There are striking similarities between the responses to sunlight by a sunflower and by a solar panel. A sunflower will take in solar energy and by photosynthesis convert the energy captured from the sun into chemical energy.... A solar panel will also take in the sun’s radiation and, by the photovoltaic effect, produce electrical energy. However, an inanimate solar panel will continually deteriorate and produce less and less electrical energy.” whereas a sunflower is able to grow and produce more energy. [5]
With both open systems, living and nonliving, being in the same Sun-Earth-space system, a difference in response indicates that something other than excess entropy is the deciding factor. Therefore, the answer appears to lie in “self-organization.” This was addressed by Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger: “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…” What is Life Subsequently the “aperiodic solids,” has been identified as DNA, and this is insight into why there are these different thermodynamic responses in the open systems.
And while quantitative estimates of increasing entropy involved in evolution can be made, increases in energy unavailable for work or for driving chemical reactions, i.e. entropy, can be a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for significant increases in order and complexity attributed to evolution. [6]
The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. The comparison of water freezing into ice crystals and “fertilized” eggs turning into babies, seen as routine, seems simplistic given the Schrödinger description “An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos” …and “represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal.” (v.s. Schrödinger) Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also must think that evolution surpasses the routine as divine involvement is alleged: “The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” [7] LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 18:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Considering the current justification is inadequate to explain the anomaly of evolution and the second law, there is need for a correction. To appreciate the deficiency is to begin to understand the topic. LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 12:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the claim that homosexuality is "well-explained" by evolution. I don't know how to break it to whoever added that, but homosexuality, and sexual orientation in general, remain controversial subjects, and it's certainly not true that they have been "well-explained", either by evolution or by anything else. There are plenty of theories, but there is no generally accepted explanation. In any case, the "well-explained by evolution" claim did not seem to have a proper source. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to express that in many cases these views are exclusively held by creationists. While this is mostly true it is a generalization, these points aren't held true by solely creationists. My point being the use of the word creationists is in place where "some" or "many" will suffice and fits better. Essentially this article needs a minor tidy up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.254.85 ( talk) 04:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I suggest redoing the title to match content here. Under "Instability of evidence" the material dopes not seem to be instability -- it starts by saying "A related objection is that evolution is based on unreliable evidence.", and goes on into the frauds such as Piltdown man. Under "Unreliable or inconsistent evidence" the material seems to be more about the methods for determining dates of events, radiology and geology. So how about these changes:
Markbassett ( talk) 14:53, 28 April 2014 (UTC)