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Link to discussion about Northern Epirus article on Wikiproject Greece page [1]
@ Alexikoua I am not going to continue this, but the reason for "Northern Epirus" being mentioned is due to the specific low-quality outlet you've chosen. In the same way, I could provide numerous news articles from Albanian outlets that do not mention it. It would be more informative to see how authoritative, serious news outlets reported the news, like "Associated Press" (one of those you've included yourself). Associated Press did not mention "Northern Epirus", because it's unrelated. FierakuiVërtet ( talk) 20:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
some low-quality Greek newspaper? What exactly makes the newspaper "low-quality"? Is it the fact that it's Greek? Besides, Providence, which is not Greek, also mentions Northern Epirus and explicitly connects it. Khirurg ( talk) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrestedAbsolutely not true. Several people were arrested for vote buying throughout Albania, and that can be easily sourced. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 01:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Providence also mentions NE and explicitly connects it.No, it does not. In all 5 instances, its mention is either a quote from or related to a written letter by Greek Ioannis Lagos to the European Commission. Instead, along the article, the focus is on the "violation" of minority rights in Greece, which is why this incident should be taken to Greeks in Albania or to Albania-Greece relations. FierakuiVërtet ( talk) 07:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Alltan started in March a topic about the infobox map (
Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 12#Infobox map). I didn't have the time then to read about the subject, but it requires a more in-depth discussion. According to Alltan the map (...) refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area"
, but I think that the issue should be discussed differently:
Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων53. Τα εδάφη που βρίσκονται νότια απ' αυτή τη γραμμή, δηλαδή το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα της κοιλάδας της Δρόπολης, τα βορινά χωριά του Πωγωνιού, τα περισσότερα χωριά της Ρίζας του Δελβίνου (Δρόβιανη, Μάλτσανη, Δίβρη, Λεσινίτσα) και ο κάμπος του Βούρκου μεταξύ Δελβίνου και Αγίων Σαράντα ορίζουν μέχρι σήμερα την έκταση των ελληνικών μειονοτικών περιοχών στην Αλβανία. (...) α. Ο συμπαγής ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός καταλάμβανε το σύνολο των εδαφών στα νότια και ανατολικά του ελληνοαλβανικού γλωσσικού συνόρου, όπως το περιγράψαμε παραπάνω, με εξαίρεση τις βλαχόφωνες περιοχές της Πίνδου, τους αλβανόφωνους της Τσαμουριάς και κάποιες ακόμη μεμονωμένες γλωσσικές νησίδες (τα αλβανόφωνα χωριά της Δρόπολης Φραστανή και Μουζίνα, τους Τουρκόγυφτους της Βοστίνας56, τους Αρβανιτόβλαχους του Μετζητιέ κ.λπ.). Σε αυτόν περιλαμβάνονταν και οι περισσότεροι από τους αστικούς μουσουλμανικούς και εβραϊκούς πληθυσμούς των Ιωαννίνων, της Αρτας και της Κόνιτσας. β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες που βρίσκονταν πέρα από το κυρίως ελληνοαλβανικό γλωσσικό σύνορο, δηλαδή ορισμένα παραλιακά χωριά στην περιοχή της Τσαμουριάς (Σαγιάδα-Μαυρούδι), τρία στη Χειμάρρα (Χειμάρρα-Δρυμάδες-Παλιάσα), δύο στην Αυλώνα (Αρτα και Σβερνέτσι) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας.[Translation:Albanian was the dominant spoken language to the north of a line that started from the region of Agioi Saranda, passing by the towns of Delvino and Argyrokastro (between the villages of Kolortsi and Dervicani) and reaching Politsani, where the northernmost tip of the province Pogoniou, it turned towards the southeast and roughly followed the course of the current Greek-Albanian border53. The lands south of this line, i.e. the largest part of the Dropoli valley, the northern villages of Pogonio, most of the villages of the Riza of Delvinos (Droviani, Maltsani, Dibri, Lesinitsa) and the plain of Bourkos between Delvinos and Agioi Saranda still define the extent of the Greek minority areas in Albania. (...) a. The solid Greek-speaking population occupied all the territories to the south and east of the Greek-Albanian linguistic border, as we described above, with the exception of the Vlach-speaking areas of Pindos, the Albanian-speaking areas of Tsamouria and some more isolated linguistic islands (the Albanian-speaking villages of Dropoli, Frastani and Muzina ) This included most of the urban Muslim and Jewish populations of Ioannina, Arta and Konitsa. b. The scattered Greek-speaking population included the Greek-speaking islands that were beyond the main Greek-Albanian language border, i.e. some coastal villages in the area of Tsamouria (Sayada-Mavroudi), three in Heimarra (Heimarra-Drymades-Paliasa), two in Avlona (Arta and Svernetsi ) and a small number of families in the urban centers of Argyrokastro and Avlona.] This description by Kokolakis is what all relevant sources - including Greek authors like Giakoumis and Kallivretakis - in relevant article discuss except for this one. The map created by Alexikoua overextends the area inhabited by Greeks to areas where no Greeks lived and Greek was never spoken. As such, the point of view advocated by Alexikoua's map doesn't reflect Greek, Albanian or international historiography. I exclusively referred to Kokolakis (2008) without presenting the consensus in Albanian historiography in order to highlight that the consensus in Greek historiography doesn't support Alexikoua's opinions in the slightest. If Alexikoua is willing to change the map according to Kokolakis (2003), then I can wait for a week for him to apply necessary changes to the map. If Alexikoua isn't willing to change the map then I will remove it as this is what is explicitly expected to be done in such cases. If Alexikoua doesn't even respond - as has happened in the past - then it's a WP:SILENT negative response and I will remove the map.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Northern Epirus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 28 days |
This article was nominated for deletion on 17 August 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
Link to discussion about Northern Epirus article on Wikiproject Greece page [1]
@ Alexikoua I am not going to continue this, but the reason for "Northern Epirus" being mentioned is due to the specific low-quality outlet you've chosen. In the same way, I could provide numerous news articles from Albanian outlets that do not mention it. It would be more informative to see how authoritative, serious news outlets reported the news, like "Associated Press" (one of those you've included yourself). Associated Press did not mention "Northern Epirus", because it's unrelated. FierakuiVërtet ( talk) 20:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
some low-quality Greek newspaper? What exactly makes the newspaper "low-quality"? Is it the fact that it's Greek? Besides, Providence, which is not Greek, also mentions Northern Epirus and explicitly connects it. Khirurg ( talk) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrestedAbsolutely not true. Several people were arrested for vote buying throughout Albania, and that can be easily sourced. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 01:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Providence also mentions NE and explicitly connects it.No, it does not. In all 5 instances, its mention is either a quote from or related to a written letter by Greek Ioannis Lagos to the European Commission. Instead, along the article, the focus is on the "violation" of minority rights in Greece, which is why this incident should be taken to Greeks in Albania or to Albania-Greece relations. FierakuiVërtet ( talk) 07:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Alltan started in March a topic about the infobox map (
Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 12#Infobox map). I didn't have the time then to read about the subject, but it requires a more in-depth discussion. According to Alltan the map (...) refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area"
, but I think that the issue should be discussed differently:
Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων53. Τα εδάφη που βρίσκονται νότια απ' αυτή τη γραμμή, δηλαδή το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα της κοιλάδας της Δρόπολης, τα βορινά χωριά του Πωγωνιού, τα περισσότερα χωριά της Ρίζας του Δελβίνου (Δρόβιανη, Μάλτσανη, Δίβρη, Λεσινίτσα) και ο κάμπος του Βούρκου μεταξύ Δελβίνου και Αγίων Σαράντα ορίζουν μέχρι σήμερα την έκταση των ελληνικών μειονοτικών περιοχών στην Αλβανία. (...) α. Ο συμπαγής ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός καταλάμβανε το σύνολο των εδαφών στα νότια και ανατολικά του ελληνοαλβανικού γλωσσικού συνόρου, όπως το περιγράψαμε παραπάνω, με εξαίρεση τις βλαχόφωνες περιοχές της Πίνδου, τους αλβανόφωνους της Τσαμουριάς και κάποιες ακόμη μεμονωμένες γλωσσικές νησίδες (τα αλβανόφωνα χωριά της Δρόπολης Φραστανή και Μουζίνα, τους Τουρκόγυφτους της Βοστίνας56, τους Αρβανιτόβλαχους του Μετζητιέ κ.λπ.). Σε αυτόν περιλαμβάνονταν και οι περισσότεροι από τους αστικούς μουσουλμανικούς και εβραϊκούς πληθυσμούς των Ιωαννίνων, της Αρτας και της Κόνιτσας. β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες που βρίσκονταν πέρα από το κυρίως ελληνοαλβανικό γλωσσικό σύνορο, δηλαδή ορισμένα παραλιακά χωριά στην περιοχή της Τσαμουριάς (Σαγιάδα-Μαυρούδι), τρία στη Χειμάρρα (Χειμάρρα-Δρυμάδες-Παλιάσα), δύο στην Αυλώνα (Αρτα και Σβερνέτσι) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας.[Translation:Albanian was the dominant spoken language to the north of a line that started from the region of Agioi Saranda, passing by the towns of Delvino and Argyrokastro (between the villages of Kolortsi and Dervicani) and reaching Politsani, where the northernmost tip of the province Pogoniou, it turned towards the southeast and roughly followed the course of the current Greek-Albanian border53. The lands south of this line, i.e. the largest part of the Dropoli valley, the northern villages of Pogonio, most of the villages of the Riza of Delvinos (Droviani, Maltsani, Dibri, Lesinitsa) and the plain of Bourkos between Delvinos and Agioi Saranda still define the extent of the Greek minority areas in Albania. (...) a. The solid Greek-speaking population occupied all the territories to the south and east of the Greek-Albanian linguistic border, as we described above, with the exception of the Vlach-speaking areas of Pindos, the Albanian-speaking areas of Tsamouria and some more isolated linguistic islands (the Albanian-speaking villages of Dropoli, Frastani and Muzina ) This included most of the urban Muslim and Jewish populations of Ioannina, Arta and Konitsa. b. The scattered Greek-speaking population included the Greek-speaking islands that were beyond the main Greek-Albanian language border, i.e. some coastal villages in the area of Tsamouria (Sayada-Mavroudi), three in Heimarra (Heimarra-Drymades-Paliasa), two in Avlona (Arta and Svernetsi ) and a small number of families in the urban centers of Argyrokastro and Avlona.] This description by Kokolakis is what all relevant sources - including Greek authors like Giakoumis and Kallivretakis - in relevant article discuss except for this one. The map created by Alexikoua overextends the area inhabited by Greeks to areas where no Greeks lived and Greek was never spoken. As such, the point of view advocated by Alexikoua's map doesn't reflect Greek, Albanian or international historiography. I exclusively referred to Kokolakis (2008) without presenting the consensus in Albanian historiography in order to highlight that the consensus in Greek historiography doesn't support Alexikoua's opinions in the slightest. If Alexikoua is willing to change the map according to Kokolakis (2003), then I can wait for a week for him to apply necessary changes to the map. If Alexikoua isn't willing to change the map then I will remove it as this is what is explicitly expected to be done in such cases. If Alexikoua doesn't even respond - as has happened in the past - then it's a WP:SILENT negative response and I will remove the map.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)