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Current Rosselló and/or Northern Catalonia should be rewritten. I would stress Rosselló as a comarca and the historical county (they could also be separated). Northern Catalonia in the context of Catalan Countries after Treaty of Pyrenees and especially when this denomination was first born. Toniher 18:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, the only possible synonym for Northern Catalonia is French Catalonia. Rosselló only refers to part of the territory under discussion, and may also refer to a former county and vegueria and present-day comarca. Since Rosselló is the largest territory, some refer to the whole territory as Rosselló, but it is simply incorrect. For instance, Rosselló != Cerdanya. This may be explained and corrected in all the different articles, but I think there is no need of introducing more confusion as would represent merging these two articles.
Taking into account the territory:
Pyrénées-Orientales = Northern Catalonia + Fenolheda = Rosselló + (Half) Cerdanya + ... + Fenolheda.
Toniher 10:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The map used on this page seems pretty useless, since it provides no geographic context, scale or reference to present borders. It would be helpful to see where this area is with respect to the more generally-recognized French "Hexagone." 216.227.122.37 06:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I've never come across this name in English. Roussillon is generally the term used for the area when it was part of France before the revolution, even if it includes territory not part of the original County of Roussillon. Given that the article Roussillon is on exactly the same subject, isn't this a POV fork? john k 12:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
And note that Roussillon is not incorrect. Cerdagne was certainly part of the French province of Roussillon. Sometimes "Roussillon and Cerdagne" is used, and sometimes just "Roussillon." The fact that the meaning of geographical referents can change and expand does not mean that the newer formulation is wrong. john k 12:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
sorry, I was off topic. what can i say : the term catalogne Nord exists in french. i can't answer to the question Is this name actually used in English? Alvaro 15:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Mreq ( talk) 18:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
As this article had lots of wrong facts, incorrect namings (i.e. Rossellò is a Catalan name and the English Roussillon should be used), a Catalan PoV instead than neutral and a complete lack of accuracy and respect for the Occitan language (called Catalan in this article), I re-edited almost the whole content to a less pro-catalan biased description. It does now also have links to the official names of the region. Maurice27 15:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to ask for your opinion of this new edit. I would like to ask the "pro-catalan crusaders" to explain the imperative use of Rossellò instead of the english correct Roussillon. Maurice27 15:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home country!!!
This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET
P.D. I attach a link and one text in Catalan from the very institut Ramon Llull in Santiago de Chile: http://www.llull.cat/llull/estatic/xile05/cat/02fira/graella.shtm --> And, as far as I know, Catalan is not spoken in Chile. BTW, take your link about Catalinity in South France to the Élysée Palace just to see what happens...
Maurice27 23:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Mreq ( talk) 18:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I remove [[Pays (France)|''Pays catalans'']] in the introductions. The french pays are much more smaller. And Pays catalans don't appear in Pays (France) nor in the more complete french equivalent : fr:Pays (aménagement du territoire). This term is not used in that sense. The term fr:pays catalans refers to Catalan Countries. Alvaro 11:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The presently known territory of Northern Catalonia was actually the most northern part of the former Principality of Catalonia, that is, Catalonia. So, It was then under jurisdiction of Generalitat de Catalunya. I consider this should be reflected in the introduction, and not avoided as it seems now. Of course, French regime after the Treaty (both under monarchy and republic) wanted to close all possible ties with the Southern part the more the better (Catalan language forbidden, Catalan Generalitat without jurisdiction there, naming of the territory, etc.). This may be explained in the article as well. By the way, thanks Physchim62 for adapting some content from the Catalan version. It was long I wanted to do it, but I found no time. There is still more content to be added, also from other articles related which have a lot of info of that territory and are highly expanded in Catalan Wikipedia. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It's obviously not the English name, but a typo from Cerdanya. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Certainly we should not use this neologism. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
After Physchim62's great work improving the article and Toniher's addition of the new LanguageS section, I made some changes:
-- Maurice27 00:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgot to say that according to your idea of using Catalan naming for pre-revolutionary years and french for nowadays (which is quite interesting), Fenolheda should be called Fenouillèdes or ?Fenouilledes?. In the same way, the main article should also be called this way Maurice27 19:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In this talk, both references to the school teaching in catalan in French Catalonia are far from reality. Since 1993 (école maternelle Jean Amade - Perpignan)it exist in the public schools a line of half french an half catalan studies. Since then, thousends of kids have been studying in those lines in PUBLIC schools (in 2008-2009 more than 12.000) http://trema.revues.org/956 More info about french public schools not in french http://www.flarep.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.79.76.244 ( talk) 20:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The area in green on the left-hand map is not just Roussillon, but also Vallespir and part of Cerdagne. If no one objects, I shall try to find a more accurate caption. Physchim62 (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
As proven by a number of comments on this talk page, the examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Therefore, it is important to explain to non-related to Catalonia users this point. The existance of "Northern Catalonia" is teached nowhere but in Catalonia. Northern Catalonia is for the rest of humanity nothing else than "Southern France". -- Maurice27 22:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dear colleagues,
I realize that this tag has been there for a very long time. Such kind of tags are a means to highlight important drawbacks in an article that should be settled. If this is the case here, then it should be clearly stated what are the issues to be solved. The comments made above didn't make it clear. I mean, even if it would be true that the "existence of Northern Catalonia is taught nowhere but in Catalonia. Northern Catalonia is for the rest of humanity nothing else than Southern France", I cannot infer from here what should be improved in the content of the article. Thanks. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 10:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I hadn't notice that in fact Maurice has given some more explanation in an edit summary: "The lack of either French or Spanish view on the subject explains the reason for the tag to remain". So, could you please elaborate what kind of information about that is missing there? -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
This was only with a fast look... I could find more if wished... I hope, Carles, Politics apart, that you accept that the tag HAS to remain in order not to mislead readers about a false thinking that this territory is Catalonia instead than France. When all the points written above are corrected, then the tag should be removed. Cheers -- MauritiusXXVII (Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 16:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That tag should have never been placed at all. The article is fine apart from the tag which is merely an inappropriate demonstration of chauvinism. The questions of Maurice27 are rhetorical. Addressing them would not improve the article. Therefore I remove the tag. Otto ( talk) 18:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Why do Sport in Catalonia or Northern Basque Country links appear in the "See also" section? Those territories are not Catalonia or Euskal Herria...
2. Why is there only one link to enciclopèdia catalana in the external links? Why not a single one from a french encyclopedia?
3. Why the only media appearing in the article are catalan spoken ones? Not a single media in Roussillon uses french?
Your irrelevant, rhetorical questions are just a masquerade for the fact that you just don't like the subject of the article, which you are sabotaging now by putting an ugly tag on it. Otto ( talk) 11:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
See also previous talk Pays catalans, where I wrote « i think pays catalan is not very used » but I'm not so sure, 3 years later; Pays catalan is now used here: www.cg66.fr, the Conseil général website, also on the Tourist information site. As far as I understand, it's just for touristic purposes. Alvar☮'s saloon. 02:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The language paragraph says, "Catalan language could be taken 1 hour per week in secondary school. In the 1970s [...] network of private schools started to offer complete bilingual French/Catalan classes from nursery up to secondary education[3]." Was the language taught the North or standard version? Politis ( talk) 12:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I was brought to this page from the Hugo Lloris article via Pays Catalan. Is there any reason why the first sentence should not include the words "also known as the '''Pays Catalan'''"? It seems to me that it was removed in 2007 because it was pipelinked to Pays (France), but I can see no reason why removing the pipelink should mean also removing the words. The term is commonly used in France, as was said by Alvaro two paragraphs up. 2001:BB6:4703:4A58:EDB8:E1A7:A5EC:2A38 ( talk) 20:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
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This article is shocking there is no such thing as Northern Cataluña, only in some independentists' mind! Keep yourself to Spain, leave French territories alone thanks! 213.151.114.50 ( talk) 13:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
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Current Rosselló and/or Northern Catalonia should be rewritten. I would stress Rosselló as a comarca and the historical county (they could also be separated). Northern Catalonia in the context of Catalan Countries after Treaty of Pyrenees and especially when this denomination was first born. Toniher 18:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, the only possible synonym for Northern Catalonia is French Catalonia. Rosselló only refers to part of the territory under discussion, and may also refer to a former county and vegueria and present-day comarca. Since Rosselló is the largest territory, some refer to the whole territory as Rosselló, but it is simply incorrect. For instance, Rosselló != Cerdanya. This may be explained and corrected in all the different articles, but I think there is no need of introducing more confusion as would represent merging these two articles.
Taking into account the territory:
Pyrénées-Orientales = Northern Catalonia + Fenolheda = Rosselló + (Half) Cerdanya + ... + Fenolheda.
Toniher 10:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The map used on this page seems pretty useless, since it provides no geographic context, scale or reference to present borders. It would be helpful to see where this area is with respect to the more generally-recognized French "Hexagone." 216.227.122.37 06:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I've never come across this name in English. Roussillon is generally the term used for the area when it was part of France before the revolution, even if it includes territory not part of the original County of Roussillon. Given that the article Roussillon is on exactly the same subject, isn't this a POV fork? john k 12:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
And note that Roussillon is not incorrect. Cerdagne was certainly part of the French province of Roussillon. Sometimes "Roussillon and Cerdagne" is used, and sometimes just "Roussillon." The fact that the meaning of geographical referents can change and expand does not mean that the newer formulation is wrong. john k 12:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
sorry, I was off topic. what can i say : the term catalogne Nord exists in french. i can't answer to the question Is this name actually used in English? Alvaro 15:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Mreq ( talk) 18:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
As this article had lots of wrong facts, incorrect namings (i.e. Rossellò is a Catalan name and the English Roussillon should be used), a Catalan PoV instead than neutral and a complete lack of accuracy and respect for the Occitan language (called Catalan in this article), I re-edited almost the whole content to a less pro-catalan biased description. It does now also have links to the official names of the region. Maurice27 15:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to ask for your opinion of this new edit. I would like to ask the "pro-catalan crusaders" to explain the imperative use of Rossellò instead of the english correct Roussillon. Maurice27 15:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home country!!!
This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET
P.D. I attach a link and one text in Catalan from the very institut Ramon Llull in Santiago de Chile: http://www.llull.cat/llull/estatic/xile05/cat/02fira/graella.shtm --> And, as far as I know, Catalan is not spoken in Chile. BTW, take your link about Catalinity in South France to the Élysée Palace just to see what happens...
Maurice27 23:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Mreq ( talk) 18:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I remove [[Pays (France)|''Pays catalans'']] in the introductions. The french pays are much more smaller. And Pays catalans don't appear in Pays (France) nor in the more complete french equivalent : fr:Pays (aménagement du territoire). This term is not used in that sense. The term fr:pays catalans refers to Catalan Countries. Alvaro 11:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The presently known territory of Northern Catalonia was actually the most northern part of the former Principality of Catalonia, that is, Catalonia. So, It was then under jurisdiction of Generalitat de Catalunya. I consider this should be reflected in the introduction, and not avoided as it seems now. Of course, French regime after the Treaty (both under monarchy and republic) wanted to close all possible ties with the Southern part the more the better (Catalan language forbidden, Catalan Generalitat without jurisdiction there, naming of the territory, etc.). This may be explained in the article as well. By the way, thanks Physchim62 for adapting some content from the Catalan version. It was long I wanted to do it, but I found no time. There is still more content to be added, also from other articles related which have a lot of info of that territory and are highly expanded in Catalan Wikipedia. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It's obviously not the English name, but a typo from Cerdanya. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Certainly we should not use this neologism. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
After Physchim62's great work improving the article and Toniher's addition of the new LanguageS section, I made some changes:
-- Maurice27 00:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgot to say that according to your idea of using Catalan naming for pre-revolutionary years and french for nowadays (which is quite interesting), Fenolheda should be called Fenouillèdes or ?Fenouilledes?. In the same way, the main article should also be called this way Maurice27 19:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In this talk, both references to the school teaching in catalan in French Catalonia are far from reality. Since 1993 (école maternelle Jean Amade - Perpignan)it exist in the public schools a line of half french an half catalan studies. Since then, thousends of kids have been studying in those lines in PUBLIC schools (in 2008-2009 more than 12.000) http://trema.revues.org/956 More info about french public schools not in french http://www.flarep.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.79.76.244 ( talk) 20:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The area in green on the left-hand map is not just Roussillon, but also Vallespir and part of Cerdagne. If no one objects, I shall try to find a more accurate caption. Physchim62 (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
As proven by a number of comments on this talk page, the examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Therefore, it is important to explain to non-related to Catalonia users this point. The existance of "Northern Catalonia" is teached nowhere but in Catalonia. Northern Catalonia is for the rest of humanity nothing else than "Southern France". -- Maurice27 22:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dear colleagues,
I realize that this tag has been there for a very long time. Such kind of tags are a means to highlight important drawbacks in an article that should be settled. If this is the case here, then it should be clearly stated what are the issues to be solved. The comments made above didn't make it clear. I mean, even if it would be true that the "existence of Northern Catalonia is taught nowhere but in Catalonia. Northern Catalonia is for the rest of humanity nothing else than Southern France", I cannot infer from here what should be improved in the content of the article. Thanks. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 10:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I hadn't notice that in fact Maurice has given some more explanation in an edit summary: "The lack of either French or Spanish view on the subject explains the reason for the tag to remain". So, could you please elaborate what kind of information about that is missing there? -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
This was only with a fast look... I could find more if wished... I hope, Carles, Politics apart, that you accept that the tag HAS to remain in order not to mislead readers about a false thinking that this territory is Catalonia instead than France. When all the points written above are corrected, then the tag should be removed. Cheers -- MauritiusXXVII (Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 16:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That tag should have never been placed at all. The article is fine apart from the tag which is merely an inappropriate demonstration of chauvinism. The questions of Maurice27 are rhetorical. Addressing them would not improve the article. Therefore I remove the tag. Otto ( talk) 18:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Why do Sport in Catalonia or Northern Basque Country links appear in the "See also" section? Those territories are not Catalonia or Euskal Herria...
2. Why is there only one link to enciclopèdia catalana in the external links? Why not a single one from a french encyclopedia?
3. Why the only media appearing in the article are catalan spoken ones? Not a single media in Roussillon uses french?
Your irrelevant, rhetorical questions are just a masquerade for the fact that you just don't like the subject of the article, which you are sabotaging now by putting an ugly tag on it. Otto ( talk) 11:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
See also previous talk Pays catalans, where I wrote « i think pays catalan is not very used » but I'm not so sure, 3 years later; Pays catalan is now used here: www.cg66.fr, the Conseil général website, also on the Tourist information site. As far as I understand, it's just for touristic purposes. Alvar☮'s saloon. 02:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The language paragraph says, "Catalan language could be taken 1 hour per week in secondary school. In the 1970s [...] network of private schools started to offer complete bilingual French/Catalan classes from nursery up to secondary education[3]." Was the language taught the North or standard version? Politis ( talk) 12:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I was brought to this page from the Hugo Lloris article via Pays Catalan. Is there any reason why the first sentence should not include the words "also known as the '''Pays Catalan'''"? It seems to me that it was removed in 2007 because it was pipelinked to Pays (France), but I can see no reason why removing the pipelink should mean also removing the words. The term is commonly used in France, as was said by Alvaro two paragraphs up. 2001:BB6:4703:4A58:EDB8:E1A7:A5EC:2A38 ( talk) 20:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
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This article is shocking there is no such thing as Northern Cataluña, only in some independentists' mind! Keep yourself to Spain, leave French territories alone thanks! 213.151.114.50 ( talk) 13:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)