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Anyone know the hanja for the above term? Just curious. Phonemonkey 23:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Saeteomin was coined by South Korean Government in 2005 to replace 'Talbukja', or North Korean defector, which was presumably known to have a negative connotation over North Korean defectors in South Korea. The first two charactors of Saeteomin can not put in Chinese. Saeteomin can be literally translated into 'people of new place.' More specifically, Saeteomin are people who has successfully entered South Korea, not North Korean defectors in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.128.67.18 ( talk) 02:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please explain what exactly these terms mean, so us monolingual types can understand why f'rinstance the North Koreans would object to the latter? -- SigPig | SEND - OVER 14:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
why isn't there an article or link on defectors to north korea?many koreans defected to the north in the late 1940s and early 50s as they were either expelled by the americans/synghman rhee or to escape persecution as they were communists. There are also Americans who defected to north korea, and one, in particular, still lives there, and has a korean family.
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2008020401
is it because wikipedia is choosing to hide facts in order to put forward a point of view? 219.77.8.142 ( talk) 06:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that there must be a distinction made between the term "defector" as someone who disavows allegiance (the standard dictionary definition) to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and thereby chooses residence in another country versus "refugee" and "economic migrant."
"Defection" to the People's Republic of China thereby does not make much sense since the two countries, PRC and DPRK, have diplomatic ties and economic and political systems that are very similar- ostensible commitments to socialism, one-party political leadership, and representation through democratic centralist structures. In the case of those who have left the DPRK for PRC, it appears that "economic migrant" is more accurate, since actual defector testimonies of people who live in northeast China or who have moved to South Korea from China stated that it was for the economic opportunity China posed. This is not to say that once you leave the DPRK you are not considered a defector by DPRK, but rather to make sure that we are not using a term that is so political and ideological in nature for an act that is otherwise considered migration in any other context.
In many cases, there are people from the DPRK who engage in cyclical migration between the DPRK and China who have not necessarily disavowed their allegiance to the DPRK but are economic migrants or economic refugees - and there are numerous testimonies that show people migrated, especially young people, in search of a better life, or in order to seek what they see on media about China or South Korea, because the DPRK cannot provide these same opportunities for them. Some migrants do believe the DPRK needs systemic change; some are in the process of learning about the difference between systems, both ideological and substantive, and others hope to return to the DPRK.
There is no doubt that the economic situation of the DPRK is dire, or that some of those who leave the DPRK are also political refugees, especially those who formerly had high positions within the DPRK administrative bodies.
But if you trace the history of the term "defector", especially as it was used by the Republic of Korea, as well as acknowledge that those who leave the DPRK and settle in the South must, by law and in order to receive benefits, disavow allegiance to the DPRK, there is a fine line between voluntary 'defection' and the act of disavowing in order to survive in countries hostile to or not on friendly terms with the DPRK.
I also am not sure how to do this yet, but for the record, numerous sections in the wiki article need citations. Owl33 ( talk) 20:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Why defectors - why don't you call them simply refugees? Did they not escape from a country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.115.98 ( talk) 15:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Here are a couple of sources about refugees in China. Not sure if they are linked or used in the article. [1] [2] I would love to write an article just on North Korean refugees in China, but I just don't spend enough time working on WP anymore. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 13:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The introduction paragraph in this article mentions a few things including the famous defection of KPAF pilot, No Kum-sok. But how about editors consider adding ex-NK premier, Hwang Jang-yop's defection which is very famous and high profile too? It could add some seasoning on the introduction since the defection happened in less than two decades ago comparing to No's defection which happened nearly five decades ago. Thanks. 125.161.146.214 ( talk) 09:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have some sort of section in this article, or a similar article, about the adjustment that N. Koreans go through when they begin assimilation into their new countries? Dudanotak ( talk) 06:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
This is something great to add. Hopefully they still aren't repatriating them to this day either!
See this article, and add this extra info to our article somehow. Thanks. -- 129.130.18.100 ( talk) 22:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The amount of information on the fate of refugees in S. Korea is totally disproportionate to the other countries listed. It also differs in kind, not just degree, with the amount of programs in place there for N. Korean refugees. Finally, there's already a page on N. Koreans living in S. Korea. Should perhaps there be a dedicated page to N. Korean defectors in S. Korea that would present all this information in a better manner? Korossyl ( talk) 03:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
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> North Koreans escape every day across the heavily guarded border to mainland China
To call that border heavy guarded is quite an overestimation... Read the Tumen river article on the wiki, it says the truth, i was there and saw that river, it's almost not patrolled at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.34.16.108 ( talk) 11:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
There has been an idea of addition of a mental/physical health and cultural adjustment related section to the article. So I am following up on that suggestion and am going to add this section. I think it is an important issue nowadays, especially, considering that it is something that becomes more and more evident. Here is the list of possible bibliographical sources. Please have a look and let me know if you have any suggestions or recommendations. Thanks!
Choi, Seul Ki, Sang Min Park, and Hyojee Joung. "Still life with less: North Korean young adult defectors in South Korea show continued poor nutrition and physique." Nutrition Research and Practice 4, no. 2 (2010): 136. doi:10.4162/nrp.2010.4.2.136.
-- AVM SIB ( talk)
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I have removed this from the article:
This doesn't make sense. The number of defectors fell over what period? It's too high to be a yearly figure. The article [3] doesn't mention this figure as far as I can see, and since it was published in 2008, it can hardly be source for what has happened since then. I think it is true that numbers of defectors have fallen, but this is muddled.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
References
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I have removed this:
It has been tagged "citation needed" since December, and doesn't reflect anything in the body of the article. I think claims like this desperately need citations, especially since we have cases of double defectors, which suggests the retribution is not that severe.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I wanted to write a quick evaluation on this article. I found that the leading section made for a succinct and effective introduction to the topic of defectors. Although, for such a broad article, the introduction could also touch a bit on the common countries that the defectors head to. While I noticed that China had been mentioned quite a bit in the introduction, since China also holds another section in the article, maybe some of that information could be moved there. The structure is quite clear. There are relevant heading and subheadings that allow me to follow the different paths that the defectors take as well as how they adjust in the different countries. There is good balance to the article especially with South Korea and China given more weight. I believe that international response might need more information and split into different country's responses as well because different countries have different relationships with North Korea. The coverage is quite neutral. I don't see any biases towards this topic. While the references are quite reputable, I believe there should be a bit more references especially to some sentences that do not have a footnote. These are just some of my suggestion! Thank you. Atsang99 ( talk) 21:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
The article says:
There is a major discrepancy between 10,000 and 100-500. I can't see that Lee's article actually says there are 10,000 North Koreans in the Russian Far East. It says that 10,000 Koreans migrated from Sakhalin Island to Russia. Am I missing something?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)
"Defectors who are willing to condemn the north and are able to provide information that is helpful to the United States and South Korean forces are offered ₩1,000,000,000 (equivalent to approximately $870,000 USD)"
I argue this line is unreliable, the original souce is written by an Australian Marxist, and the book itself doesn't explicitly cite where they get this information from. The only clue it gives is to Beal, Tim. 2005. North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power. London: Pluto.
The source has this:
Christian communism has appeared elsewhere in Asia, most notably Minjung
theology in South Korea (Kim and Ho 2013). But I am more interested in a
part of Asia about which there is much speculation, misinformation and
precious little realistic and reliable information: The Democratic People’s
Republic of Korea (dprk), or ‘North Korea’ as it is unofficially called. Some
have hypothesised that religion does not exist in the dprk, since the state is
atheistic and religious people have been suppressed and eliminated (Kong 1974;
Worden 2008, 115–16; Havet and Gaudreau 2010). These accounts usually rely on
the unverified hearsay of ‘defectors’, even though anyone who leaves the north
and is willing to condemn the government is offered one billion won (usd
$870,000) for doing so, as long as they provide information that is helpful to the
United States and South Korean forces.1
I could not verify where Beal 2005 mentions this, thus I consider the original source unreliable.
AtomicNumberPhi (
talk) 08:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abbynlew ( article contribs).
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 September 2020 and 25 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JeeaYang.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 05:24, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Anyone know the hanja for the above term? Just curious. Phonemonkey 23:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Saeteomin was coined by South Korean Government in 2005 to replace 'Talbukja', or North Korean defector, which was presumably known to have a negative connotation over North Korean defectors in South Korea. The first two charactors of Saeteomin can not put in Chinese. Saeteomin can be literally translated into 'people of new place.' More specifically, Saeteomin are people who has successfully entered South Korea, not North Korean defectors in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.128.67.18 ( talk) 02:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please explain what exactly these terms mean, so us monolingual types can understand why f'rinstance the North Koreans would object to the latter? -- SigPig | SEND - OVER 14:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
why isn't there an article or link on defectors to north korea?many koreans defected to the north in the late 1940s and early 50s as they were either expelled by the americans/synghman rhee or to escape persecution as they were communists. There are also Americans who defected to north korea, and one, in particular, still lives there, and has a korean family.
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2008020401
is it because wikipedia is choosing to hide facts in order to put forward a point of view? 219.77.8.142 ( talk) 06:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that there must be a distinction made between the term "defector" as someone who disavows allegiance (the standard dictionary definition) to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and thereby chooses residence in another country versus "refugee" and "economic migrant."
"Defection" to the People's Republic of China thereby does not make much sense since the two countries, PRC and DPRK, have diplomatic ties and economic and political systems that are very similar- ostensible commitments to socialism, one-party political leadership, and representation through democratic centralist structures. In the case of those who have left the DPRK for PRC, it appears that "economic migrant" is more accurate, since actual defector testimonies of people who live in northeast China or who have moved to South Korea from China stated that it was for the economic opportunity China posed. This is not to say that once you leave the DPRK you are not considered a defector by DPRK, but rather to make sure that we are not using a term that is so political and ideological in nature for an act that is otherwise considered migration in any other context.
In many cases, there are people from the DPRK who engage in cyclical migration between the DPRK and China who have not necessarily disavowed their allegiance to the DPRK but are economic migrants or economic refugees - and there are numerous testimonies that show people migrated, especially young people, in search of a better life, or in order to seek what they see on media about China or South Korea, because the DPRK cannot provide these same opportunities for them. Some migrants do believe the DPRK needs systemic change; some are in the process of learning about the difference between systems, both ideological and substantive, and others hope to return to the DPRK.
There is no doubt that the economic situation of the DPRK is dire, or that some of those who leave the DPRK are also political refugees, especially those who formerly had high positions within the DPRK administrative bodies.
But if you trace the history of the term "defector", especially as it was used by the Republic of Korea, as well as acknowledge that those who leave the DPRK and settle in the South must, by law and in order to receive benefits, disavow allegiance to the DPRK, there is a fine line between voluntary 'defection' and the act of disavowing in order to survive in countries hostile to or not on friendly terms with the DPRK.
I also am not sure how to do this yet, but for the record, numerous sections in the wiki article need citations. Owl33 ( talk) 20:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Why defectors - why don't you call them simply refugees? Did they not escape from a country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.115.98 ( talk) 15:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Here are a couple of sources about refugees in China. Not sure if they are linked or used in the article. [1] [2] I would love to write an article just on North Korean refugees in China, but I just don't spend enough time working on WP anymore. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 13:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The introduction paragraph in this article mentions a few things including the famous defection of KPAF pilot, No Kum-sok. But how about editors consider adding ex-NK premier, Hwang Jang-yop's defection which is very famous and high profile too? It could add some seasoning on the introduction since the defection happened in less than two decades ago comparing to No's defection which happened nearly five decades ago. Thanks. 125.161.146.214 ( talk) 09:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have some sort of section in this article, or a similar article, about the adjustment that N. Koreans go through when they begin assimilation into their new countries? Dudanotak ( talk) 06:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
This is something great to add. Hopefully they still aren't repatriating them to this day either!
See this article, and add this extra info to our article somehow. Thanks. -- 129.130.18.100 ( talk) 22:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The amount of information on the fate of refugees in S. Korea is totally disproportionate to the other countries listed. It also differs in kind, not just degree, with the amount of programs in place there for N. Korean refugees. Finally, there's already a page on N. Koreans living in S. Korea. Should perhaps there be a dedicated page to N. Korean defectors in S. Korea that would present all this information in a better manner? Korossyl ( talk) 03:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
> North Koreans escape every day across the heavily guarded border to mainland China
To call that border heavy guarded is quite an overestimation... Read the Tumen river article on the wiki, it says the truth, i was there and saw that river, it's almost not patrolled at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.34.16.108 ( talk) 11:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
There has been an idea of addition of a mental/physical health and cultural adjustment related section to the article. So I am following up on that suggestion and am going to add this section. I think it is an important issue nowadays, especially, considering that it is something that becomes more and more evident. Here is the list of possible bibliographical sources. Please have a look and let me know if you have any suggestions or recommendations. Thanks!
Choi, Seul Ki, Sang Min Park, and Hyojee Joung. "Still life with less: North Korean young adult defectors in South Korea show continued poor nutrition and physique." Nutrition Research and Practice 4, no. 2 (2010): 136. doi:10.4162/nrp.2010.4.2.136.
-- AVM SIB ( talk)
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I have removed this from the article:
This doesn't make sense. The number of defectors fell over what period? It's too high to be a yearly figure. The article [3] doesn't mention this figure as far as I can see, and since it was published in 2008, it can hardly be source for what has happened since then. I think it is true that numbers of defectors have fallen, but this is muddled.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
References
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I have removed this:
It has been tagged "citation needed" since December, and doesn't reflect anything in the body of the article. I think claims like this desperately need citations, especially since we have cases of double defectors, which suggests the retribution is not that severe.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I wanted to write a quick evaluation on this article. I found that the leading section made for a succinct and effective introduction to the topic of defectors. Although, for such a broad article, the introduction could also touch a bit on the common countries that the defectors head to. While I noticed that China had been mentioned quite a bit in the introduction, since China also holds another section in the article, maybe some of that information could be moved there. The structure is quite clear. There are relevant heading and subheadings that allow me to follow the different paths that the defectors take as well as how they adjust in the different countries. There is good balance to the article especially with South Korea and China given more weight. I believe that international response might need more information and split into different country's responses as well because different countries have different relationships with North Korea. The coverage is quite neutral. I don't see any biases towards this topic. While the references are quite reputable, I believe there should be a bit more references especially to some sentences that do not have a footnote. These are just some of my suggestion! Thank you. Atsang99 ( talk) 21:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
The article says:
There is a major discrepancy between 10,000 and 100-500. I can't see that Lee's article actually says there are 10,000 North Koreans in the Russian Far East. It says that 10,000 Koreans migrated from Sakhalin Island to Russia. Am I missing something?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)
"Defectors who are willing to condemn the north and are able to provide information that is helpful to the United States and South Korean forces are offered ₩1,000,000,000 (equivalent to approximately $870,000 USD)"
I argue this line is unreliable, the original souce is written by an Australian Marxist, and the book itself doesn't explicitly cite where they get this information from. The only clue it gives is to Beal, Tim. 2005. North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power. London: Pluto.
The source has this:
Christian communism has appeared elsewhere in Asia, most notably Minjung
theology in South Korea (Kim and Ho 2013). But I am more interested in a
part of Asia about which there is much speculation, misinformation and
precious little realistic and reliable information: The Democratic People’s
Republic of Korea (dprk), or ‘North Korea’ as it is unofficially called. Some
have hypothesised that religion does not exist in the dprk, since the state is
atheistic and religious people have been suppressed and eliminated (Kong 1974;
Worden 2008, 115–16; Havet and Gaudreau 2010). These accounts usually rely on
the unverified hearsay of ‘defectors’, even though anyone who leaves the north
and is willing to condemn the government is offered one billion won (usd
$870,000) for doing so, as long as they provide information that is helpful to the
United States and South Korean forces.1
I could not verify where Beal 2005 mentions this, thus I consider the original source unreliable.
AtomicNumberPhi (
talk) 08:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)