This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Talk:New Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 10 (You are here.)
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Hoolie Doolie this thing is huge! I tried to take a look at it just now to get my mind around the issues, but it's just too darn big. That talk page I just archived was 54k! Let's start afresh.
First up, the article is so long that I can't hold a picture of it in my head in order to think about it sensibly. Indeed, it would take me all night to read it as carefully as one should read something that has been as heavily disputed as this thing. It has to be broken up, one way or another. It occurs to me that the best person to break it up would be the person who is most familiar with it - i.e., 172. Let's face it, most of the rest of us probably have difficulty conceptualising an article as long as this clearly, let alone debating it. Wikilove to all. Tannin 14:17, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To everyone:
I would like to clarify weak sections of the article rather than remove them. I'd also like to improve sections for readability rather than having a user pick out a typo or two, an unclear sentence or two, and use it as a pretext to attack the entire article. I'd also like to engage in a dialogue with users well versed in the subject over the proper division. Would people agree to give this a chance and move past all this squabbling? Please, this is very complex subject matter. A lot of content is needed to explain all the important points. I'll go through them below.
The most important is the transition from informal control to formal rule, the motivations behind this, and the factors underpinning this shift, which are extremely complex because we're dealing with one broad trend, but not carried out everywhere, among many rapidly changing nations dealing with an even greater number of rapidly changing colonies. We're also going to need to deal with imperial rivalry; why less developed nations, such as Italy, decided to follow Britain's lead in formal colonialism; and the role of all parties involved (finance, adventurers, explorers, missionaries). While accomplishing this, we're going to need to deal with the promotion of imperialism in the main powers, and all the shifts involved (as an aside, the promotion of French imperialism is notable for shifts reflecting developments in the history of France, such as the founding of the Third Republic, its humiliation in the Franco-Prussian War).
While some users have proposed going into great detail on the colonial encounter (the role of race and class in colonial societies, the emergence of nationalism, de-colonization, and the emergence of the "North-South divide"), these are best left as concluding remarks since there are specific articles on the histories of colonial societies.
The current article accomplishes most of these tasks. If I'm given a chance to copyedit it thoroughly for readability, I'd be able to present it in a more effective manner more approachable to lay readers.
I'd also like to add this very brief paragraph:
"Technological advancement facilitated overseas expansionism. Industrialization brought about rapid advancements in transportation and communication, especially in the forms of steam navigation, railroads, and telegraphs. Medical advances were also key, especially vaccines for topical tropical diseases. The development of malaria treatment enabled vast expanses of the tropics to be penetrated in the first place."
BTW, due to so many edits by so many writers, I can't be blamed for everything! 172 16:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Not to harp on the matter too much but the history of the word imperialism is somewhat strangely constructed. To say that OED claims that 1856 "imperialism" was used to describe "Pax Britannica", is very problematic. To start with; the term "Pax Britannica" is first used 1886. (if we are to believe OED).
Well, I suppose they still could have used it to refer to the phenomenon itself. But the quote in the OED (well, the one I have) definitely doesn't attest that in any conclusive way. After the murky 1856 quote there are a few quotes about the "romans". The closest to an early British reference in the OED is a mention that the "Keltic race" had a definite disposition towards imperialism, referring (well, maybe. They chop way too much context from their quotes (Not that I would like a double sized dictionary)) to the reluctance the Irish folk of that time in embracing republican ideals against following autocrats. That is a quote from 1861.
Then (again forgetting the references to romans) we have 1868 a mention about German imperialism. And the first real mention of a national policy being described as imperialism is the French in 1870. (still all according to OED, so don't point your fingers at me)
The first mention of British imperialism is from the mouth of J.Chamberlain. The Year is 1878, and the reference is not to a national policy, but to a fringe element in British politics. And the word used is not imperialism but imperialists, if there is a distinction. (and maybe there is, it refers to a number or individuals, rather than even a movement.)
In fact, the first mention of imperialism in the sense of an anglo-american hegemony, is from the year 1899. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 16:10, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is copied from the archived talkpage or whatever. Please read (well, skim at any rate) through Talk:New_Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article before voting here.
Voting ends 14:45, July 30th'
Link to the temp version in the current version:
Don't link to the temp version in the current version:
P.S. The deadline should probably be adjusted, since Tannin understandably didn't notice to to move this to the new talkpage. But how much, is a question I leave to wiser heads. I am just about beat. -- Cimon Avaro
Why? Today was proposed, and it's so far 7-6 for a link. I'm editing this overblown mess down anyway as soon as it's free (though I doubt I'll get it to 32K), so it's really rather academic. Graculus 17:06, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ok, it's decided: the majority thinks that there should be a link. I'll add it. How long it should stay there is another matter (according to Daniel Quinlan). CGS 15:20, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC).
Actually wiki have been almost unusable for a lot of today for many users. It has taken me 2 hours to get on, and every second link talks about larousse and connections. (I took me eight attempts over the last hour to get into the page. FearÉIREANN 18:06, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I clarified some of the more glaring problems in the article. May I post the changes, which aren't very significant, on the main page? 172 16:52, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
And precisely why should one contributor be allowed to edit when others aren't? Graculus 17:06, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Please! No amount of your endorsements will allow a non-sysop to change a comma in the article. And editing it in the most minuscule fashion defeats the whole purpose of the protection anyway... -- Cimon Avaro
Okay. I am unilaterally SUGGESTING that we extend the vote to 16:00 of the original timezone, since the vote was out from the talk page for what; two and a half hours. My solution would be to split the difference. I will not complain, if an extension to 1730 is requested however. But make it known either way. Just so we don't stumble on that detail. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick
Perhaps the protection can be lifted. But can we all enter into a gentlemen's agreement whereby we agree to making no major changes and just focus on readability and clarity? Could we all go back to editing without having Martin remove the theories section before the series is created? Could Graculus edit without removing large chunks dealing with economic trends, Russia, or imperial rivalry? Just for now. Can we focus on clarity? 172 18:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is a reason there was an edit war at this article...Watch out Graculus or 172 is going to accuse you of being the banned user DW. Pizza Puzzle
I reverted Gracs changes to New Imperialism (temp) - I dont understand what he was doing and I tried to move it to a secondary temp page -- but it was over 32k and I couldnt. Pizza Puzzle
I have the following points that I feel should be noted:
Statements that the New Imperialism (temp) page lacks these topics are somewhat exagerrated - since all this information is linked to from the temp page.
Can a non-edit-warring sysop (IE, not me, to my shame) please revert 172's latest edits, which took place while the page was protected? Thanks. Martin 19:39, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
He said he wouldn't challenge any revert, so I've done it. Although I have expressed some opinion here (ie in the vote), I was actually on 172's side there, so I think I can reasonably do it... :-) Evercat 19:46, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Just how long is it proposed that this article is to remain protected? Until 172's return? How nice for those of us who have spent hours on revisions only to have them reverted unread, and who now find ourselves unable to restore them. I propose that since an edit war of the kind we have seen in the past seems unlikely in the 12 hours that 172 says he will be absent, the interim should be made available for others to submit and discuss alternative drafts should they so wish. Then 172 can revert back to his last version on his return, which will doubtless be the case. Graculus 19:58, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I really haven't been following this so much, but if you wish to prepare a version for when the page is unprotected, you can create a temp version, possibly in your own userspace. I'll copy the entire wikicode of the page to a place of your choosing, if you like. Evercat 20:19, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Graculus to mav, 21:30, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I am asking you to unprotect New Imperialism. So far as I can see the contributor with the greatest tendency to revert is absent from the site for some time, while others are prevented from editing what remains a profoundly unsatisfactory article. I am amazed that the article should be thus closed to someone (myself) who has made repeated constructive edits, lately restructuring the whole thing and rewriting a large part of it to make it more readable, objective and informative than the present disorderly assemblage of rambling, repetitive and circular claims.
I set myself the goal some time ago of bringing this article into editable size (so far from 35K to 50K, with no loss of valuable content}, and believe that I should be entitled to present the results for review and discussion like anyone else. I am quite at a loss as to why one contributor appears to be the beneficiary of so much use of administrative privilege - to the extent even of having "his" page protected in his absence although he is quite happy to revert others' work without even reading it - when the result has in fact not to date been (and is in my opinion unlikely to be) any significant improvement to the article in question.
One thing seems to be certain; this article is way too long for an encyclopedia. However, since Wikipedia doesn't really have space concerns, we can have this level of detail but it somehow must be better organized into a set of articles instead of just one huge article. History of Germany, I believe, sets a good example on just how a huge subject (German history) can be summarized on a top level page and the detail explained in depth on daughter articles.
However, looking through the edit history of this article, I see that at least one user has consistently blocked the efforts of others who have been trying to bring the length of this article down to a manageable size. The merits of their particular edits may or may not have been good, but the intent is in the right direction, IMO. But a wait of a mere 3-8 minutes before a revert to the longer version of the article on each attempt to fix the known size issues doesn't seem to be in the spirit of cooperation. It also seems doubtful that the two versions of the article could even be read for comparison in that time.
So I'm asking everyone to please respect the work of others: those people who want a short article here; please move the detail to daughter articles and summarize the major sections here; to the other side; please consider each of these changes to be attempts at improving the article and not as something that should be reverted without serious consideration. If factual errors are made then please fix those errors instead of just reverting the page. I'll unprotect the article as soon as both sides agree to work together (preferably under the terms I expressed above). -- mav 23:14, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Here's the series box. What does everyone think? If it's accepted, we'll then have the opportunity to add a strong narrative history, which would really make this article understandable to users not well versed in the subject. 172 06:13, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The "New Imperialism" is an era of imperial colonial expansion spanning the late 19th and early 20th centuries, between the Franco-Prussian War and World War I (c. 1871 - 1914). English writers have variously described the New Imperialism as the "era of empire for empire's sake", "the great adventure", and "the scramble for Africa".
I know that the title to the series is awful. But the title couldn't be "New Imperialism" for obvious reasons. 172 07:05, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The required reorganisation can be accomplished within the present article with daughter articles as required, if only people other than 172 are allowed to revise it in the way it so desperately needs. The above arrangement is frankly nonsensical. Why is the history (erm... the facts, in case you haven't noticed) relegated to the end? Why is Britain (the last adherent of free-trade informal empire) at the beginning and Germany (actually, the Entente, better covered elsewhere) toward the end, while France and the U.S don't even rate a mention? Why should "Loss of British comparative advantage in manufacturing" and "*Loss of British comparative advantage in manufacturing" and "Amalgamation of Industry" merit whole sections as if British industrialists' concerns explained everything? Why a section on "Russian expansionism" which mainly just about India Office paranoia and actually misses the period when Tsarist policy approximated most closely to the "New imperialism"?
My own draft (which 172 reverted without reading) arranged the whole into a far more coherent framework, capable with minor editing of being viewed on one page as a parent article. Why must we be subjected to more of this ill-organised, overworded and repetitive nightmare? Graculus 07:45, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
That's it. I'm deleting my user page. And I'm out of this site for good. Didn't I say that the article was far from finished? Didn't I explain that my edits have been very limited for a long time? I don't like being slandered. 172 09:46, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Nice rhetoric aside, Graculus, 172 is no problem at all to work with if you know something about the subject and actually try to cooperate. (And on this point I speak from personal experience.) Here is a hint: cut someone a little slack next time, huh? Tannin
New Imperialism. |
The transition from informal control to formal rule
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|
Imperial rivalry
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New Imperialism in Asia
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New Imperialism and the scramble for Africa
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Since 172 has apparently left the project (probably not for good, I hope) and these series of edit wars have mostly been 172 vs others, then I see no further reason to keep this page protected. The current version is an older one so please somebody revert it to what you think is a more acceptable version. Let's all work toward summarizing the main points here and having the detail in daughter articles. -- mav
Is anyone in favor of redirecting the series to the main article now that the page is unprotected? 172 18:28, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ok, now I'm confused. Martin 18:38, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Sorry to disappoint you, Martin. Perhaps I overreacted to Graculus' vicious personal attacks and slander and your less than magnanimous presence. But disregarding that, will the above box be an acceptable series once a summary for all the daughter articles is created? So far, I'm the first to have 'broken up this monster' into a series.
I'm not very attached to the titles and the ordering of the series, but if anyone wants, the names can be easily changed by redirecting the daughter articles and the sequencing of the articles can easily be changed by editing the series box.
But it's impossible to write the executive summary until we know what the main articles being summarized are going to be. So some discussion of the series would be helpful.
As a note to Graculus, virtually everything that he added to his reverted version has been placed in the daughter articles, which have been the subject to a good deal of reorganization and editing for readability since the content was borrowed from the main page. 172 19:25, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is now an executive summary with links to daughter articles on it. Click here. As I mentioned above, the sequencing of the series, along with the names of the daughter articles, can easily be changed by editing the series box. Since we have long agreed to split the article up into a series linked to executive summaries of the daughter articles, can this be redirected to the main page? 172 04:34, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav: now that I've clarified the proposal and fixed all the tables, what do you think? Can we get rid of the monster on New Imperialism? 172 05:23, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I have absented myself from this site for 24 hours in order to avoid inflaming an unfortunate situation. I am glad to see 172 back, and I hope we can work together on achieveing the improvements that are required. Now that the site is unprotected, I believe that I am entitled to offer a version of the article which better approaches the 32K target.
I feel also that I am entitled to respond to certain claims against me. I did not slander anyone. I did not call anyone ignorant. I stated that a contributor's expertise in a particular area of the subject was "extremely limited". I withdraw the adverb as quite inappropriate in comparison to average knowledge of the matter. But it's still limited. And that isn't ignorance in the pejorative sense: everybody's knowledge including mine is limited in something, or even extremely limited in most things. Graculus 07:52, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav wrote: "I like the new format and summaries, but wait to see what other people think. -- mav 05:30, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)"
I agreed to wait until Graculus unilaterally made drastic changes and unilaterally rejected the broad consensus to create a series. I'm willing to have someone revert to the original article if Graculus too is stopped from making drastic changes prior to reaching an agreement. 172 08:11, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I still sense a bitter tone. I'm sorry for hastily reverting your 34 K version. However, we all agreed to split the article up rather than remove content. And despite the reversion, I did thoroughly review it. You will soon notice that everything you added in the 34 K version found a home in the new series. What you added was incredibly good, but I'm looking forward to adding much more.
There's also no need for the competitive overtones of your statement. Frankly, there was no competition. Prior to your posting of the 34 K version, I did not get a chance to copyedit the article for readability and clarify, reorganize it, and add the chronicling of facts that I still look forward to adding to the series.
In addition, I'm not committed to the titles in the series and the sequencing of the articles. So your input would be respected if it's offered in a magnanimous manner. 172 10:34, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I admitted that posting the series was a recent unilateral action reacting to Graculus' unlilateral action, which went against the consensus. The "consensus" of which I speak is only the agreement by the vast majority of those who have been participated in the talk page that an executive summary be posted on the main page with links to daughter articles. That's it.
There are no vast 172 conspiracies here. And furthermore, the implication put forward by one user that all the syspos are in cahoots together is absurd. Mav and I, for instance, practically get into a little dispute every other day. But we've always ended them amicably, much like I hope the dispute over this article gets resolved. 172 11:02, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Glad that some amount of rationality has been restored.
You,meaning whoever is interested, have to reintroduce the paragraph which talks about when the word imperialism first came to be used and then how it was applied retrospectively to earlier empires and how because of that the 19th and 20th century version of imperialism is called new imperialism. This forms the whole crux of understanding 'new imperialism'. Removing this paragraph causes a major missing link because you have to lead from a generally known concept-'imperialism' to a relatively unknown concept- 'new imperialism' as far as the general reader is concerned.
If I type 'New Imperialism' in the search area, I get another page, not the temporary one. So are there three versions totally? It is ridiculous. I am tempted to try my hand, I seem to have learnt so much about a topic that I didn't know existed at all!!!
The imperialism paragraph is not needed -- there is an article on that topic. imperialism. Pizza Puzzle
172 removed my link to the temp page. What am I supposed to do? Pizza Puzzle
It doesnt seem to me that Graculus and 172 are agreeing. Even if they were, I have created a seperate version which you, Jtdirl, and 172 have worked very hard to censor (going so far as to use your sysop powers in breach of the rules regarding sysops) -- so its not surprising if nobody has been able to read it -- and anyways -- maybe nobody sees anything needing editing. Pizza Puzzle
Lol - Jtdirl is a troll Im not gonna feed anymore. Pizza Puzzle
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Talk:New Imperialism/archive 1
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 2
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 3
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 4
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 5
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 6
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 7
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 8
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 9
Talk:New Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 10 (You are here.)
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 11
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 12
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 13
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 14
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 15
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 16
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 17
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 18
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 19
Talk:New Imperialism/archive 20
Hoolie Doolie this thing is huge! I tried to take a look at it just now to get my mind around the issues, but it's just too darn big. That talk page I just archived was 54k! Let's start afresh.
First up, the article is so long that I can't hold a picture of it in my head in order to think about it sensibly. Indeed, it would take me all night to read it as carefully as one should read something that has been as heavily disputed as this thing. It has to be broken up, one way or another. It occurs to me that the best person to break it up would be the person who is most familiar with it - i.e., 172. Let's face it, most of the rest of us probably have difficulty conceptualising an article as long as this clearly, let alone debating it. Wikilove to all. Tannin 14:17, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To everyone:
I would like to clarify weak sections of the article rather than remove them. I'd also like to improve sections for readability rather than having a user pick out a typo or two, an unclear sentence or two, and use it as a pretext to attack the entire article. I'd also like to engage in a dialogue with users well versed in the subject over the proper division. Would people agree to give this a chance and move past all this squabbling? Please, this is very complex subject matter. A lot of content is needed to explain all the important points. I'll go through them below.
The most important is the transition from informal control to formal rule, the motivations behind this, and the factors underpinning this shift, which are extremely complex because we're dealing with one broad trend, but not carried out everywhere, among many rapidly changing nations dealing with an even greater number of rapidly changing colonies. We're also going to need to deal with imperial rivalry; why less developed nations, such as Italy, decided to follow Britain's lead in formal colonialism; and the role of all parties involved (finance, adventurers, explorers, missionaries). While accomplishing this, we're going to need to deal with the promotion of imperialism in the main powers, and all the shifts involved (as an aside, the promotion of French imperialism is notable for shifts reflecting developments in the history of France, such as the founding of the Third Republic, its humiliation in the Franco-Prussian War).
While some users have proposed going into great detail on the colonial encounter (the role of race and class in colonial societies, the emergence of nationalism, de-colonization, and the emergence of the "North-South divide"), these are best left as concluding remarks since there are specific articles on the histories of colonial societies.
The current article accomplishes most of these tasks. If I'm given a chance to copyedit it thoroughly for readability, I'd be able to present it in a more effective manner more approachable to lay readers.
I'd also like to add this very brief paragraph:
"Technological advancement facilitated overseas expansionism. Industrialization brought about rapid advancements in transportation and communication, especially in the forms of steam navigation, railroads, and telegraphs. Medical advances were also key, especially vaccines for topical tropical diseases. The development of malaria treatment enabled vast expanses of the tropics to be penetrated in the first place."
BTW, due to so many edits by so many writers, I can't be blamed for everything! 172 16:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Not to harp on the matter too much but the history of the word imperialism is somewhat strangely constructed. To say that OED claims that 1856 "imperialism" was used to describe "Pax Britannica", is very problematic. To start with; the term "Pax Britannica" is first used 1886. (if we are to believe OED).
Well, I suppose they still could have used it to refer to the phenomenon itself. But the quote in the OED (well, the one I have) definitely doesn't attest that in any conclusive way. After the murky 1856 quote there are a few quotes about the "romans". The closest to an early British reference in the OED is a mention that the "Keltic race" had a definite disposition towards imperialism, referring (well, maybe. They chop way too much context from their quotes (Not that I would like a double sized dictionary)) to the reluctance the Irish folk of that time in embracing republican ideals against following autocrats. That is a quote from 1861.
Then (again forgetting the references to romans) we have 1868 a mention about German imperialism. And the first real mention of a national policy being described as imperialism is the French in 1870. (still all according to OED, so don't point your fingers at me)
The first mention of British imperialism is from the mouth of J.Chamberlain. The Year is 1878, and the reference is not to a national policy, but to a fringe element in British politics. And the word used is not imperialism but imperialists, if there is a distinction. (and maybe there is, it refers to a number or individuals, rather than even a movement.)
In fact, the first mention of imperialism in the sense of an anglo-american hegemony, is from the year 1899. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 16:10, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is copied from the archived talkpage or whatever. Please read (well, skim at any rate) through Talk:New_Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article before voting here.
Voting ends 14:45, July 30th'
Link to the temp version in the current version:
Don't link to the temp version in the current version:
P.S. The deadline should probably be adjusted, since Tannin understandably didn't notice to to move this to the new talkpage. But how much, is a question I leave to wiser heads. I am just about beat. -- Cimon Avaro
Why? Today was proposed, and it's so far 7-6 for a link. I'm editing this overblown mess down anyway as soon as it's free (though I doubt I'll get it to 32K), so it's really rather academic. Graculus 17:06, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ok, it's decided: the majority thinks that there should be a link. I'll add it. How long it should stay there is another matter (according to Daniel Quinlan). CGS 15:20, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC).
Actually wiki have been almost unusable for a lot of today for many users. It has taken me 2 hours to get on, and every second link talks about larousse and connections. (I took me eight attempts over the last hour to get into the page. FearÉIREANN 18:06, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I clarified some of the more glaring problems in the article. May I post the changes, which aren't very significant, on the main page? 172 16:52, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
And precisely why should one contributor be allowed to edit when others aren't? Graculus 17:06, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Please! No amount of your endorsements will allow a non-sysop to change a comma in the article. And editing it in the most minuscule fashion defeats the whole purpose of the protection anyway... -- Cimon Avaro
Okay. I am unilaterally SUGGESTING that we extend the vote to 16:00 of the original timezone, since the vote was out from the talk page for what; two and a half hours. My solution would be to split the difference. I will not complain, if an extension to 1730 is requested however. But make it known either way. Just so we don't stumble on that detail. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick
Perhaps the protection can be lifted. But can we all enter into a gentlemen's agreement whereby we agree to making no major changes and just focus on readability and clarity? Could we all go back to editing without having Martin remove the theories section before the series is created? Could Graculus edit without removing large chunks dealing with economic trends, Russia, or imperial rivalry? Just for now. Can we focus on clarity? 172 18:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is a reason there was an edit war at this article...Watch out Graculus or 172 is going to accuse you of being the banned user DW. Pizza Puzzle
I reverted Gracs changes to New Imperialism (temp) - I dont understand what he was doing and I tried to move it to a secondary temp page -- but it was over 32k and I couldnt. Pizza Puzzle
I have the following points that I feel should be noted:
Statements that the New Imperialism (temp) page lacks these topics are somewhat exagerrated - since all this information is linked to from the temp page.
Can a non-edit-warring sysop (IE, not me, to my shame) please revert 172's latest edits, which took place while the page was protected? Thanks. Martin 19:39, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
He said he wouldn't challenge any revert, so I've done it. Although I have expressed some opinion here (ie in the vote), I was actually on 172's side there, so I think I can reasonably do it... :-) Evercat 19:46, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Just how long is it proposed that this article is to remain protected? Until 172's return? How nice for those of us who have spent hours on revisions only to have them reverted unread, and who now find ourselves unable to restore them. I propose that since an edit war of the kind we have seen in the past seems unlikely in the 12 hours that 172 says he will be absent, the interim should be made available for others to submit and discuss alternative drafts should they so wish. Then 172 can revert back to his last version on his return, which will doubtless be the case. Graculus 19:58, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I really haven't been following this so much, but if you wish to prepare a version for when the page is unprotected, you can create a temp version, possibly in your own userspace. I'll copy the entire wikicode of the page to a place of your choosing, if you like. Evercat 20:19, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Graculus to mav, 21:30, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I am asking you to unprotect New Imperialism. So far as I can see the contributor with the greatest tendency to revert is absent from the site for some time, while others are prevented from editing what remains a profoundly unsatisfactory article. I am amazed that the article should be thus closed to someone (myself) who has made repeated constructive edits, lately restructuring the whole thing and rewriting a large part of it to make it more readable, objective and informative than the present disorderly assemblage of rambling, repetitive and circular claims.
I set myself the goal some time ago of bringing this article into editable size (so far from 35K to 50K, with no loss of valuable content}, and believe that I should be entitled to present the results for review and discussion like anyone else. I am quite at a loss as to why one contributor appears to be the beneficiary of so much use of administrative privilege - to the extent even of having "his" page protected in his absence although he is quite happy to revert others' work without even reading it - when the result has in fact not to date been (and is in my opinion unlikely to be) any significant improvement to the article in question.
One thing seems to be certain; this article is way too long for an encyclopedia. However, since Wikipedia doesn't really have space concerns, we can have this level of detail but it somehow must be better organized into a set of articles instead of just one huge article. History of Germany, I believe, sets a good example on just how a huge subject (German history) can be summarized on a top level page and the detail explained in depth on daughter articles.
However, looking through the edit history of this article, I see that at least one user has consistently blocked the efforts of others who have been trying to bring the length of this article down to a manageable size. The merits of their particular edits may or may not have been good, but the intent is in the right direction, IMO. But a wait of a mere 3-8 minutes before a revert to the longer version of the article on each attempt to fix the known size issues doesn't seem to be in the spirit of cooperation. It also seems doubtful that the two versions of the article could even be read for comparison in that time.
So I'm asking everyone to please respect the work of others: those people who want a short article here; please move the detail to daughter articles and summarize the major sections here; to the other side; please consider each of these changes to be attempts at improving the article and not as something that should be reverted without serious consideration. If factual errors are made then please fix those errors instead of just reverting the page. I'll unprotect the article as soon as both sides agree to work together (preferably under the terms I expressed above). -- mav 23:14, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Here's the series box. What does everyone think? If it's accepted, we'll then have the opportunity to add a strong narrative history, which would really make this article understandable to users not well versed in the subject. 172 06:13, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The "New Imperialism" is an era of imperial colonial expansion spanning the late 19th and early 20th centuries, between the Franco-Prussian War and World War I (c. 1871 - 1914). English writers have variously described the New Imperialism as the "era of empire for empire's sake", "the great adventure", and "the scramble for Africa".
I know that the title to the series is awful. But the title couldn't be "New Imperialism" for obvious reasons. 172 07:05, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The required reorganisation can be accomplished within the present article with daughter articles as required, if only people other than 172 are allowed to revise it in the way it so desperately needs. The above arrangement is frankly nonsensical. Why is the history (erm... the facts, in case you haven't noticed) relegated to the end? Why is Britain (the last adherent of free-trade informal empire) at the beginning and Germany (actually, the Entente, better covered elsewhere) toward the end, while France and the U.S don't even rate a mention? Why should "Loss of British comparative advantage in manufacturing" and "*Loss of British comparative advantage in manufacturing" and "Amalgamation of Industry" merit whole sections as if British industrialists' concerns explained everything? Why a section on "Russian expansionism" which mainly just about India Office paranoia and actually misses the period when Tsarist policy approximated most closely to the "New imperialism"?
My own draft (which 172 reverted without reading) arranged the whole into a far more coherent framework, capable with minor editing of being viewed on one page as a parent article. Why must we be subjected to more of this ill-organised, overworded and repetitive nightmare? Graculus 07:45, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
That's it. I'm deleting my user page. And I'm out of this site for good. Didn't I say that the article was far from finished? Didn't I explain that my edits have been very limited for a long time? I don't like being slandered. 172 09:46, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Nice rhetoric aside, Graculus, 172 is no problem at all to work with if you know something about the subject and actually try to cooperate. (And on this point I speak from personal experience.) Here is a hint: cut someone a little slack next time, huh? Tannin
New Imperialism. |
The transition from informal control to formal rule
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Imperial rivalry
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New Imperialism in Asia
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New Imperialism and the scramble for Africa
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Since 172 has apparently left the project (probably not for good, I hope) and these series of edit wars have mostly been 172 vs others, then I see no further reason to keep this page protected. The current version is an older one so please somebody revert it to what you think is a more acceptable version. Let's all work toward summarizing the main points here and having the detail in daughter articles. -- mav
Is anyone in favor of redirecting the series to the main article now that the page is unprotected? 172 18:28, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Ok, now I'm confused. Martin 18:38, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Sorry to disappoint you, Martin. Perhaps I overreacted to Graculus' vicious personal attacks and slander and your less than magnanimous presence. But disregarding that, will the above box be an acceptable series once a summary for all the daughter articles is created? So far, I'm the first to have 'broken up this monster' into a series.
I'm not very attached to the titles and the ordering of the series, but if anyone wants, the names can be easily changed by redirecting the daughter articles and the sequencing of the articles can easily be changed by editing the series box.
But it's impossible to write the executive summary until we know what the main articles being summarized are going to be. So some discussion of the series would be helpful.
As a note to Graculus, virtually everything that he added to his reverted version has been placed in the daughter articles, which have been the subject to a good deal of reorganization and editing for readability since the content was borrowed from the main page. 172 19:25, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There is now an executive summary with links to daughter articles on it. Click here. As I mentioned above, the sequencing of the series, along with the names of the daughter articles, can easily be changed by editing the series box. Since we have long agreed to split the article up into a series linked to executive summaries of the daughter articles, can this be redirected to the main page? 172 04:34, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav: now that I've clarified the proposal and fixed all the tables, what do you think? Can we get rid of the monster on New Imperialism? 172 05:23, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I have absented myself from this site for 24 hours in order to avoid inflaming an unfortunate situation. I am glad to see 172 back, and I hope we can work together on achieveing the improvements that are required. Now that the site is unprotected, I believe that I am entitled to offer a version of the article which better approaches the 32K target.
I feel also that I am entitled to respond to certain claims against me. I did not slander anyone. I did not call anyone ignorant. I stated that a contributor's expertise in a particular area of the subject was "extremely limited". I withdraw the adverb as quite inappropriate in comparison to average knowledge of the matter. But it's still limited. And that isn't ignorance in the pejorative sense: everybody's knowledge including mine is limited in something, or even extremely limited in most things. Graculus 07:52, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav wrote: "I like the new format and summaries, but wait to see what other people think. -- mav 05:30, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)"
I agreed to wait until Graculus unilaterally made drastic changes and unilaterally rejected the broad consensus to create a series. I'm willing to have someone revert to the original article if Graculus too is stopped from making drastic changes prior to reaching an agreement. 172 08:11, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I still sense a bitter tone. I'm sorry for hastily reverting your 34 K version. However, we all agreed to split the article up rather than remove content. And despite the reversion, I did thoroughly review it. You will soon notice that everything you added in the 34 K version found a home in the new series. What you added was incredibly good, but I'm looking forward to adding much more.
There's also no need for the competitive overtones of your statement. Frankly, there was no competition. Prior to your posting of the 34 K version, I did not get a chance to copyedit the article for readability and clarify, reorganize it, and add the chronicling of facts that I still look forward to adding to the series.
In addition, I'm not committed to the titles in the series and the sequencing of the articles. So your input would be respected if it's offered in a magnanimous manner. 172 10:34, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I admitted that posting the series was a recent unilateral action reacting to Graculus' unlilateral action, which went against the consensus. The "consensus" of which I speak is only the agreement by the vast majority of those who have been participated in the talk page that an executive summary be posted on the main page with links to daughter articles. That's it.
There are no vast 172 conspiracies here. And furthermore, the implication put forward by one user that all the syspos are in cahoots together is absurd. Mav and I, for instance, practically get into a little dispute every other day. But we've always ended them amicably, much like I hope the dispute over this article gets resolved. 172 11:02, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Glad that some amount of rationality has been restored.
You,meaning whoever is interested, have to reintroduce the paragraph which talks about when the word imperialism first came to be used and then how it was applied retrospectively to earlier empires and how because of that the 19th and 20th century version of imperialism is called new imperialism. This forms the whole crux of understanding 'new imperialism'. Removing this paragraph causes a major missing link because you have to lead from a generally known concept-'imperialism' to a relatively unknown concept- 'new imperialism' as far as the general reader is concerned.
If I type 'New Imperialism' in the search area, I get another page, not the temporary one. So are there three versions totally? It is ridiculous. I am tempted to try my hand, I seem to have learnt so much about a topic that I didn't know existed at all!!!
The imperialism paragraph is not needed -- there is an article on that topic. imperialism. Pizza Puzzle
172 removed my link to the temp page. What am I supposed to do? Pizza Puzzle
It doesnt seem to me that Graculus and 172 are agreeing. Even if they were, I have created a seperate version which you, Jtdirl, and 172 have worked very hard to censor (going so far as to use your sysop powers in breach of the rules regarding sysops) -- so its not surprising if nobody has been able to read it -- and anyways -- maybe nobody sees anything needing editing. Pizza Puzzle
Lol - Jtdirl is a troll Im not gonna feed anymore. Pizza Puzzle