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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
MontanaBW, I have reverted your good faith edits to this article, again. When referencing a "god" of a monotheistic religion pertaining to Judaism, Christianity and/or Islam, "God" is always capitalized regardless of nominal grammar rules. The "Christian God", "Abrahamic God," "God of Christianity," God of Abraham" etc. whichever way you word it would always assume capitalization. In my statement above I was only able to get away with it as I am indirecting relating the two, followed by an explanation, ending in capitalization; thus relaying my example; correlating my point. Please read Capitonym#Philosophical, religious, and political terms, where it uses the exact same phrasing you continue to revert; "It is common practice to capitalize the pronouns referring to the Abrahamic God."
I understand your position entirely, but the case here is grammically unique. Furthermore, good luck finding Christian "god" anywhere phrased this way, let it be online, books, stone etc. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 07:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Please don't take other editor's comments from elsewhere and place them as if they had made them here. It is a serious offence to impersonate another editor. I also object that you refactored my comment when you copied it over. Wikipedia has a perfectly good system of linking and you can even use diffs to direct attention to a particular edit.
Now to address your concerns: MontanaBW, with whom you are having the dispute, lives (unsurprisingly) in Montana and works to Mountain Time Zone (UTC -0700). She is already well aware of my views on edit warring. If you wait patiently I am sure she will address the points you make, and if you civilly refer her to MOS:CAPS#Religion, there is every chance that you will be able to reach a consensus with her. I sincerely hope you manage to. The bottom line is: don't edit-war to force your preferred version onto an article, no matter how right you think you are. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Wow, I can't believe how much conversation has been dedicated to this topic. User:Montanabw is correct, when the term god is not used as a personal pronoun it is not capitalized. Yuchitown ( talk) 19:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
The Manual of Style is quite clear about when god should and should not be capitalized. The question here is simply context. The passage in the artice is somewhat ambiguous, is it naming the Christian God or is it refering to the Christian god? I administered a simple test and replaced the word god in the sentence with the word diety and would recommend that if the current structure is kept "...do not worship the Christian god" then god should not be capitalized. If the structure is changed to "...do not worship God" then God should be capitalized. StarHOG ( talk) 21:58, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
How about just rewording the passage so it does not refer to big-g God in a way that is ambiguous as to whether it is a proper noun, or perhaps avoiding the word god altogether. I don't think it's necessary at all, a different sentence could convey the exact same meaning. For example, not worshiping a Christian God is more or less equivalent to not being Christian, no? If not, you could say that a heathen in this conception is somebody who does not subscribe to Christianity [and the Christian conception of God]. That is clearly a proper noun. Or else somebody who does not worship the Christian deity. Unless we mean to adopt a somewhat idiosyncratic definition of heathen, the generic word, used by somebody within a religion, applies to somebody who does not accept or practice that religion. - Wikidemon ( talk) 02:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
The recent edits and edit summaries have bothered me not just for the vandalism point, but if there is a shread of truth to the claims. I am not of the first people, but I am interested in this article and helping wikipedia present good, strong articles that are free from any sort of bias. As editors we really need to know how people feel about this matter and other sthat we contribute to. What if the person making these edits is of the first people and really does take issue with our branding or labeling with terms like indigenous? What if users asking the same question and come to wikipedia for an answer, and read this article, and go away thinking that this branding is OK because we use it casually in the article? That is what bothers me the most, that if our misunderstanding of an issue allows us to use pajorative terminology that we think is OK, but we're wrong and then because it is in an article, we somehow cause it to be used more often or in otherways normalize its use. StarHOG ( talk) 13:38, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
First:
"Some Europeans have called Native Americans "redskins" or, more commonly, "Red Indians". This is partially based on the color metaphors for race which colonists and settlers historically used in North America and Europe, and also to distinguish Native Americans from the Indian people of India. Such terms are considered pejorative, especially if used by non-Natives."
The term Red Indian etc may be considered perjorative, but by whom? Just by Indians, or just by Americans, or by everyone the world? Surely not by everyone. Thus the wording could use some greater specificity.
Second:
The English-speaking world and Europeans, in loan-translations, used "redskin" and "red Indian" throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to refer to indigenous Americans.
This is certainly not just in the 18th and 19th century. The terms were both common in 20th century cowboy films and books.
And certainly in Britain today, in the 21st century, one can buy a 'Red Indian' outfit in any toyshop or fancy dress hire establishment. 'Redskin' however does appear to have fallen out of use in Britain. Perhaps the wording could be changed to more closely reflect the facts? Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.241.165 ( talk) 16:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
"Such terms (especially Redskin) are considered pejorative if used by non-Natives." Because in Africa, here in Europe, and in Asia they aren't. America and Australia I don't know. 37.76.34.54 ( talk) 14:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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I noticed two points in this article that I felt are lacking. I have not made changes because I do not feel well versed enough on the subject to make definitive changes without talking first, perhaps someone can add better insight or provide good counter arguments:
1) For Salient Issues: One of the complaints regarding the term Native American that I have heard mentioned repeatedly is that there is a specific implication of ownership or victory over the Tribes. Two of the bullet points addressed the topic vaguely, but I do not feel that it was sufficient to someone who is not aware of the argument.
The bullets currently read:
The argument I often hear goes something like this: "I'd prefer to be called an Indian or Red Man instead of a Native American because I'm not an American. I'm barely a second class citizen, living on a scrap of land that was dolled out to me by people that killed and raped my ancestors." The idea is basically that it is insulting to be called an American because it is something that is being forced upon them without their consent. That was kind of mentioned in those bullet points, but I don't think it accurately represents to level of resentment and hostility that goes with that sentiment. It doesn't specifically address why there is an issue with being assigned a name by an occupying force - because there was no consensus prior to ascribing the name, which then feeds into the first bullet point of that name not being chosen by each Tribe. I am unaware if the level of hostility that I have experienced regarding this concept is widespread, or if it varies between tribes and individuals. I don't think it would be right of me to edit it without some form of consensus or documentation first, much of what I know about this subject was by word of mouth.
2) For Controversial terminology, "Redskin"/"Red Indian": The closing sentence for the first paragraph reads:
First, there is no citation for this statement, which it badly needs.
Second, it's unclear. Is the protest for the Washington Redskins, The Red Mesa High School Redskins, or all teams which use the term Redskin?
Third, I believe that statement is misleading. Not only does the statement seemingly try to combine all Tribes into a single entity, "Native Americans", which is clearly incorrect it, also comes close to implying that all Native Americans have been protesting the use of the term Redskin/Red Indian for the better part of 40 years. I'm sure that there are some that find it offensive, and some that do not. When the most recent controversy of the Washington Redskins was being publicized in 2014(?), I read articles from both Americans and from Tribes, both of which had arguments for and against the use of the term Redskin. This is to say, in my opinion, there is very little consensus, let alone a prolonged concentrated effort by "Native Americans" to have a word and/or mascot banned for nearly a half century.
Sawta ( talk) 21:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I changed the link in the "Squaw" section for "in-group term" to point to "Ingroup and outgroup" instead of "Speech community." The exampled given in Speech community of a "small town" versus a large city like New York suggest that such communities are regional, whereas the idea that "squaw" might be an acceptable term within a group of Native Americans but pejorative when used by non-indigenous people is based on the groups' cultures, not their locations of residence. TychaBrahe ( talk) 14:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I personally did not welcome Canada's conversion of aboriginal to indigenous partly because indigenous is nearly impossible to use in a sentence, and partly because it appears to have roots in the word "indian" that I believe is colonialist in the extreme -that is, if you are not from India!
I am being assured that "indi-" prefix derives from latin "in" or "from" (such as in a google snippet that I have preserved and can share), but I cannot find any reference for "indi-" except as "indu-" roughly meaning hindu -or Indian from India. So, my concern has progressed to conspiratorial paranoia ;). Given the entirety of Asia was previously "India" to the West (not to mention the New World), I am believing that the current use is the same as the ancient use: a colonialist term.-- John Bessa ( talk) 19:58, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
The fact that the word "American" appears in the title to refer to people who were here before the name "Amerigo" was even first given to a human (as America was named after Amerigo Vespucci) ... is nauseating. In addition, the word "indian" is pejorative in every sense when used by non-indigenous people and shouldn't appear on WP unless it's with the intent to discredit its use. Anyway, what do we expect when colonizers are editing text referring to the oppressed? In a perfect world, this thread would read like an apology.
-R — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.1.112 ( talk) 21:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Because the issue of the naming controversy is unresolved on WP (meaning one clear policy) the subject is left to subjective interpretation and as a result edit warring. The article mentions the"Salient Issues affecting the debate"however WP needs a clear consensus to avert and forestall any edit warring. My personal opinion is Native American (NA) or native American with the context of a sentence. It is enough that some of the NA community perceive it to be pejorative, aboriginal and indigenous is too wordy and "intellectual", native is sufficient. Using the word Indian is confusing to a younger, less educated reader who might think the article is discussing the Indian subcontinent.
Oldperson (
talk) 20:54, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The claim that "most native Americans" would consider the word squaw "highly offensive, derogatory, misogynist and racist" would be hard to substantiate and seems to represent a partisan viewpoint, an impression reinforced by the series of qualifications that follows. 2A02:A452:9491:1:9465:8FF7:A93:66EA ( talk) 15:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm puzzled at the included claim that "Jewess" is offensive. The term is evident in many Jewish books and other sources. Drsruli ( talk) 05:07, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Two things...
For one, This whole page is just an entire Citation Needed... It is largely an opinion piece and often does not allow many nuances between native communities and the views of the word,
Secondly, it partially ignores the nuanced history in how the word has been largely used by Natives to unify, or how many natives see the attempted name change as an attempt by White communities to force it onto natives to cover up colonialism for a sense of self-righteousness via political correctness. This is an opinion I hear Native people talk about commonly and it has no page on here, even though it is a significant problem that faces native communities. 174.138.194.147 ( talk) 17:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
The section on the term "Injun" claims that the term was originally intended to mock native Americans' pronunciation of "Indian" or something or other.... this seems highly questionable to me. I think it is was more likely an example of excessive yod-coalescence, that is, hick talk. (Similar to, e.g., "jeet?", meaning "did you eat?") Firejuggler86 ( talk) 03:13, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Firejuggler86 ( talk) 09:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 2 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brookecur ( article contribs).
It's a little weird that "tribal" is not discussed as a term in use, but it is used several times in the article. In my experience, individuals are most accepting of "tribal". They say it most frequently, or they will say their exact tribe name. After that, they actually tend to say "Indian" (only a little less then "tribal", I would say, maybe tending toward older people preferring "Indian"). However, I rarely see any academic sources, news, et cetera use "tribal", and they actively advocate not using "Indian". They most frequently use "Native American" in the US and "First Nations/Peoples" in Canada, though "Indigenous" is making headway in the US, I suppose inspired by the anthropology departments at the University.
This is an issue with WP:RS, especially when trying to note the common experience vs the platformed voices. Reliable sources are simply not representative of the words people typically use. And the US census bureau is very confused on the issue (but at the same time, they want to make sure people "self identify" as they would identify them, so it's a hard task). 76.178.169.118 ( talk) 21:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The article says, without any citations, "Some Europeans have historically called Native Americans "Red Indians". The term was largely used in the 18th and 19th centuries, partially based on the color metaphors for race which colonists and settlers historically used in North America and Europe, and also to distinguish Native Americans from the Indian people of India." I'm not sure this is accurate; in the 1960s it was normal for British to refer to "Cowboys and Indians" or "Red Indians". That's way into the 20th century and it wasn't just "some" folk. In my recollection it wasn't used in any derisive or offensive way either - Red Indians were to be respected and, sometimes, feared. It's not my area of expertise, so I'm just flagging this up. Bermicourt ( talk) 22:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
-Cowboys and Indians used to be quite popular in Greece too, under the term "Καουμπόηδες και ινδιάνοι". I can still find plenty of Greek pages vilifying those nasty cowboys and lionizing the "good" Indianoi, just when I was a kid. See for example these page accusing the Americans of war crimes against the Sioux. Dimadick ( talk) 06:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Why are there date ranges in some of the section headers of this article? They seem unnecessary. – Treetoes023 ( talk) 18:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm considering reverting. The only reason I haven't is that this also covers Canada and makes some mention of global terms. The Latin America section is unsourced. I think it could stay at an "Indigenous" title, though maybe a briefer one, if that is sourced. If not sourced, we may need to just revert and cut that. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:24, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
MontanaBW, I have reverted your good faith edits to this article, again. When referencing a "god" of a monotheistic religion pertaining to Judaism, Christianity and/or Islam, "God" is always capitalized regardless of nominal grammar rules. The "Christian God", "Abrahamic God," "God of Christianity," God of Abraham" etc. whichever way you word it would always assume capitalization. In my statement above I was only able to get away with it as I am indirecting relating the two, followed by an explanation, ending in capitalization; thus relaying my example; correlating my point. Please read Capitonym#Philosophical, religious, and political terms, where it uses the exact same phrasing you continue to revert; "It is common practice to capitalize the pronouns referring to the Abrahamic God."
I understand your position entirely, but the case here is grammically unique. Furthermore, good luck finding Christian "god" anywhere phrased this way, let it be online, books, stone etc. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 07:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Please don't take other editor's comments from elsewhere and place them as if they had made them here. It is a serious offence to impersonate another editor. I also object that you refactored my comment when you copied it over. Wikipedia has a perfectly good system of linking and you can even use diffs to direct attention to a particular edit.
Now to address your concerns: MontanaBW, with whom you are having the dispute, lives (unsurprisingly) in Montana and works to Mountain Time Zone (UTC -0700). She is already well aware of my views on edit warring. If you wait patiently I am sure she will address the points you make, and if you civilly refer her to MOS:CAPS#Religion, there is every chance that you will be able to reach a consensus with her. I sincerely hope you manage to. The bottom line is: don't edit-war to force your preferred version onto an article, no matter how right you think you are. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Wow, I can't believe how much conversation has been dedicated to this topic. User:Montanabw is correct, when the term god is not used as a personal pronoun it is not capitalized. Yuchitown ( talk) 19:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
The Manual of Style is quite clear about when god should and should not be capitalized. The question here is simply context. The passage in the artice is somewhat ambiguous, is it naming the Christian God or is it refering to the Christian god? I administered a simple test and replaced the word god in the sentence with the word diety and would recommend that if the current structure is kept "...do not worship the Christian god" then god should not be capitalized. If the structure is changed to "...do not worship God" then God should be capitalized. StarHOG ( talk) 21:58, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
How about just rewording the passage so it does not refer to big-g God in a way that is ambiguous as to whether it is a proper noun, or perhaps avoiding the word god altogether. I don't think it's necessary at all, a different sentence could convey the exact same meaning. For example, not worshiping a Christian God is more or less equivalent to not being Christian, no? If not, you could say that a heathen in this conception is somebody who does not subscribe to Christianity [and the Christian conception of God]. That is clearly a proper noun. Or else somebody who does not worship the Christian deity. Unless we mean to adopt a somewhat idiosyncratic definition of heathen, the generic word, used by somebody within a religion, applies to somebody who does not accept or practice that religion. - Wikidemon ( talk) 02:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
The recent edits and edit summaries have bothered me not just for the vandalism point, but if there is a shread of truth to the claims. I am not of the first people, but I am interested in this article and helping wikipedia present good, strong articles that are free from any sort of bias. As editors we really need to know how people feel about this matter and other sthat we contribute to. What if the person making these edits is of the first people and really does take issue with our branding or labeling with terms like indigenous? What if users asking the same question and come to wikipedia for an answer, and read this article, and go away thinking that this branding is OK because we use it casually in the article? That is what bothers me the most, that if our misunderstanding of an issue allows us to use pajorative terminology that we think is OK, but we're wrong and then because it is in an article, we somehow cause it to be used more often or in otherways normalize its use. StarHOG ( talk) 13:38, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
First:
"Some Europeans have called Native Americans "redskins" or, more commonly, "Red Indians". This is partially based on the color metaphors for race which colonists and settlers historically used in North America and Europe, and also to distinguish Native Americans from the Indian people of India. Such terms are considered pejorative, especially if used by non-Natives."
The term Red Indian etc may be considered perjorative, but by whom? Just by Indians, or just by Americans, or by everyone the world? Surely not by everyone. Thus the wording could use some greater specificity.
Second:
The English-speaking world and Europeans, in loan-translations, used "redskin" and "red Indian" throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to refer to indigenous Americans.
This is certainly not just in the 18th and 19th century. The terms were both common in 20th century cowboy films and books.
And certainly in Britain today, in the 21st century, one can buy a 'Red Indian' outfit in any toyshop or fancy dress hire establishment. 'Redskin' however does appear to have fallen out of use in Britain. Perhaps the wording could be changed to more closely reflect the facts? Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.241.165 ( talk) 16:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
"Such terms (especially Redskin) are considered pejorative if used by non-Natives." Because in Africa, here in Europe, and in Asia they aren't. America and Australia I don't know. 37.76.34.54 ( talk) 14:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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I noticed two points in this article that I felt are lacking. I have not made changes because I do not feel well versed enough on the subject to make definitive changes without talking first, perhaps someone can add better insight or provide good counter arguments:
1) For Salient Issues: One of the complaints regarding the term Native American that I have heard mentioned repeatedly is that there is a specific implication of ownership or victory over the Tribes. Two of the bullet points addressed the topic vaguely, but I do not feel that it was sufficient to someone who is not aware of the argument.
The bullets currently read:
The argument I often hear goes something like this: "I'd prefer to be called an Indian or Red Man instead of a Native American because I'm not an American. I'm barely a second class citizen, living on a scrap of land that was dolled out to me by people that killed and raped my ancestors." The idea is basically that it is insulting to be called an American because it is something that is being forced upon them without their consent. That was kind of mentioned in those bullet points, but I don't think it accurately represents to level of resentment and hostility that goes with that sentiment. It doesn't specifically address why there is an issue with being assigned a name by an occupying force - because there was no consensus prior to ascribing the name, which then feeds into the first bullet point of that name not being chosen by each Tribe. I am unaware if the level of hostility that I have experienced regarding this concept is widespread, or if it varies between tribes and individuals. I don't think it would be right of me to edit it without some form of consensus or documentation first, much of what I know about this subject was by word of mouth.
2) For Controversial terminology, "Redskin"/"Red Indian": The closing sentence for the first paragraph reads:
First, there is no citation for this statement, which it badly needs.
Second, it's unclear. Is the protest for the Washington Redskins, The Red Mesa High School Redskins, or all teams which use the term Redskin?
Third, I believe that statement is misleading. Not only does the statement seemingly try to combine all Tribes into a single entity, "Native Americans", which is clearly incorrect it, also comes close to implying that all Native Americans have been protesting the use of the term Redskin/Red Indian for the better part of 40 years. I'm sure that there are some that find it offensive, and some that do not. When the most recent controversy of the Washington Redskins was being publicized in 2014(?), I read articles from both Americans and from Tribes, both of which had arguments for and against the use of the term Redskin. This is to say, in my opinion, there is very little consensus, let alone a prolonged concentrated effort by "Native Americans" to have a word and/or mascot banned for nearly a half century.
Sawta ( talk) 21:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I changed the link in the "Squaw" section for "in-group term" to point to "Ingroup and outgroup" instead of "Speech community." The exampled given in Speech community of a "small town" versus a large city like New York suggest that such communities are regional, whereas the idea that "squaw" might be an acceptable term within a group of Native Americans but pejorative when used by non-indigenous people is based on the groups' cultures, not their locations of residence. TychaBrahe ( talk) 14:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I personally did not welcome Canada's conversion of aboriginal to indigenous partly because indigenous is nearly impossible to use in a sentence, and partly because it appears to have roots in the word "indian" that I believe is colonialist in the extreme -that is, if you are not from India!
I am being assured that "indi-" prefix derives from latin "in" or "from" (such as in a google snippet that I have preserved and can share), but I cannot find any reference for "indi-" except as "indu-" roughly meaning hindu -or Indian from India. So, my concern has progressed to conspiratorial paranoia ;). Given the entirety of Asia was previously "India" to the West (not to mention the New World), I am believing that the current use is the same as the ancient use: a colonialist term.-- John Bessa ( talk) 19:58, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
The fact that the word "American" appears in the title to refer to people who were here before the name "Amerigo" was even first given to a human (as America was named after Amerigo Vespucci) ... is nauseating. In addition, the word "indian" is pejorative in every sense when used by non-indigenous people and shouldn't appear on WP unless it's with the intent to discredit its use. Anyway, what do we expect when colonizers are editing text referring to the oppressed? In a perfect world, this thread would read like an apology.
-R — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.1.112 ( talk) 21:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Because the issue of the naming controversy is unresolved on WP (meaning one clear policy) the subject is left to subjective interpretation and as a result edit warring. The article mentions the"Salient Issues affecting the debate"however WP needs a clear consensus to avert and forestall any edit warring. My personal opinion is Native American (NA) or native American with the context of a sentence. It is enough that some of the NA community perceive it to be pejorative, aboriginal and indigenous is too wordy and "intellectual", native is sufficient. Using the word Indian is confusing to a younger, less educated reader who might think the article is discussing the Indian subcontinent.
Oldperson (
talk) 20:54, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The claim that "most native Americans" would consider the word squaw "highly offensive, derogatory, misogynist and racist" would be hard to substantiate and seems to represent a partisan viewpoint, an impression reinforced by the series of qualifications that follows. 2A02:A452:9491:1:9465:8FF7:A93:66EA ( talk) 15:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm puzzled at the included claim that "Jewess" is offensive. The term is evident in many Jewish books and other sources. Drsruli ( talk) 05:07, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Two things...
For one, This whole page is just an entire Citation Needed... It is largely an opinion piece and often does not allow many nuances between native communities and the views of the word,
Secondly, it partially ignores the nuanced history in how the word has been largely used by Natives to unify, or how many natives see the attempted name change as an attempt by White communities to force it onto natives to cover up colonialism for a sense of self-righteousness via political correctness. This is an opinion I hear Native people talk about commonly and it has no page on here, even though it is a significant problem that faces native communities. 174.138.194.147 ( talk) 17:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
The section on the term "Injun" claims that the term was originally intended to mock native Americans' pronunciation of "Indian" or something or other.... this seems highly questionable to me. I think it is was more likely an example of excessive yod-coalescence, that is, hick talk. (Similar to, e.g., "jeet?", meaning "did you eat?") Firejuggler86 ( talk) 03:13, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Firejuggler86 ( talk) 09:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 2 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brookecur ( article contribs).
It's a little weird that "tribal" is not discussed as a term in use, but it is used several times in the article. In my experience, individuals are most accepting of "tribal". They say it most frequently, or they will say their exact tribe name. After that, they actually tend to say "Indian" (only a little less then "tribal", I would say, maybe tending toward older people preferring "Indian"). However, I rarely see any academic sources, news, et cetera use "tribal", and they actively advocate not using "Indian". They most frequently use "Native American" in the US and "First Nations/Peoples" in Canada, though "Indigenous" is making headway in the US, I suppose inspired by the anthropology departments at the University.
This is an issue with WP:RS, especially when trying to note the common experience vs the platformed voices. Reliable sources are simply not representative of the words people typically use. And the US census bureau is very confused on the issue (but at the same time, they want to make sure people "self identify" as they would identify them, so it's a hard task). 76.178.169.118 ( talk) 21:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The article says, without any citations, "Some Europeans have historically called Native Americans "Red Indians". The term was largely used in the 18th and 19th centuries, partially based on the color metaphors for race which colonists and settlers historically used in North America and Europe, and also to distinguish Native Americans from the Indian people of India." I'm not sure this is accurate; in the 1960s it was normal for British to refer to "Cowboys and Indians" or "Red Indians". That's way into the 20th century and it wasn't just "some" folk. In my recollection it wasn't used in any derisive or offensive way either - Red Indians were to be respected and, sometimes, feared. It's not my area of expertise, so I'm just flagging this up. Bermicourt ( talk) 22:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
-Cowboys and Indians used to be quite popular in Greece too, under the term "Καουμπόηδες και ινδιάνοι". I can still find plenty of Greek pages vilifying those nasty cowboys and lionizing the "good" Indianoi, just when I was a kid. See for example these page accusing the Americans of war crimes against the Sioux. Dimadick ( talk) 06:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Why are there date ranges in some of the section headers of this article? They seem unnecessary. – Treetoes023 ( talk) 18:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm considering reverting. The only reason I haven't is that this also covers Canada and makes some mention of global terms. The Latin America section is unsourced. I think it could stay at an "Indigenous" title, though maybe a briefer one, if that is sourced. If not sourced, we may need to just revert and cut that. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:24, 2 April 2023 (UTC)