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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
For more detail on why this article exists, see the discussion at Talk:Native Americans. - Harmil 23:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
When I first wrote, " North America", in the lead paragraph I did mean to include Mexico, as some comments on Talk:Native Americans and other sources had lead me to think that the term "Native American" might be more common than I thought there. However, on doing more research on WP and other sites, I found that indeed the Mexican terminology (even when writing in English) is primarily Spanish, so the recent edit is correct in retrospect, thanks for fixing my gaff. - Harmil 23:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
;)
.Forgetting all of this, I then went and edited it back... sigh, some days I wish I had a brain. Still, I think the new wording has some merit. Any concerns? If there are, we can put it back, but that brings the Mexico section into question, perhaps as it should be. - Harmil 12:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
If one were to sail "around" the Cape of Good Hope, they would soon run aground on the shores of Falsche Bay. The Cape of Good Hope is not the southern-most point of Africa, and this article's saying so perpetuates a widely percieved falacy. Corrected.
A large number of changes were made by Jorge Stolfi, some of which do not seem to have been well thought out. For example, there some grammar problems such as:
Which is to say that "them" is quite ambiguous. Also, there are some "constroversies" which I've never heard of any controversy surrounding ("of" vs. "in") that could use some citations. Generally, such major structural changes are better brought to the talk page first. I won't simply revert the changes, but I will leave a note on his user page and ask for a response. - Harmil 12:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
To what three continents does this section refer? I only count two (North America and South America). Cparker 17:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Jorge, you seem to have done quite a bit more than just copyedit this document. Could you please either back out your changes or rectify the problems that I and Cparker have pointed out? - Harmil 22:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Howdy, I realize this is a bit out of protocol, but would anyone mind taking a look at the Talk:Squamish, British Columbia#Indian v. First nation discussion. It is a dispute about name useage (i.e. the topic of this article), and seems to be limited to myself and another user, and outside perspectives might be useful. Many thanks, -- Hansnesse 05:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
To me the biggest part of the thing is that Indian means people from India, not Native people in America, other place have native too.... 142.161.94.69 23:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
"[I]s an ongoing dispute over": reword as "is an ongoing debate" or (better), "ongoing discussion on"? This may not be about exclusively one or another, or sensational terms like "dispute" rather than "reasoned debate". Per Brunner (2006), d'Errico (2005), and, intriguingly, Mann (2005), this seems to be transcending acrimony and is illuminating the usefulness of multiple prespectives, not unlike the Buhhdist or Jain parable (Indian, no less). -- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
<!-- This is not a comprehensive list, but a short overview of the most widely used handful of terms -->
This could be useful to readers. Maybe just mention why or how so, for example per search engine ranking. Much of this controversy can be ameliorated with awareness and mention that schools of thought exist. -- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The US bias of the term Indian Wars has taken it as a given that that term should be used for the particular set of wars in the United States known in US history as the Indian Wars; interestingly they don't usually use it to include the Rogue River Wars, the Yakima War or Cayuse War and the wars of extermination in California, which are before the Plains and Southwest-focus of the usual context of "Indian Wars" in US historical writing (and movie-making). So wars in Canada, Mexico and Russian America, and anything pre-Civil War (technically, although I've gotten a consensus on Talk:Indian Wars about the Yakima and Cayuse Wars needing inclusion), are supposed to be on Native American wars. Which is really crazy, because "Native American", as "we" know from this page and other discussions outside and inside of Wikispace, is a purely American term and not suitable for native peoples outside of the US. So I've been asking for a resolution of this: what to call the wars in Canada, Mexico, Russian America, ostensibly in other parts of the Spanish New World, too; "Native American Wars" will NOT do. Certainly if a Canadian were to search he/she is NOT going to search for " Native American wars". Thoughts? Skookum1 18:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"War on indigenous peoples", per d'Errico (1995). [6] --19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
'Looking for leads toward references (so I may document whereof I write). Have editors any sources for edits made? Thank you.
Very useful article, well written. Just a suggestion, with sources ( Wikipedia:Cite sources, ), it could be deserving of a good rating ( Wikipedia:What is a good article). Even a bibliography and "[[Author last name] (year)]" at the end of sections could be useful. (Having "pp. [pages]" (where relevant), Wikipedia:Citation templates would be frosting on the cake.) The following may already be familiar:
== Notes and references ==
Adding this: {{subst:Footnotes}} generates this:
== Bibliography ==
--19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
'Particularly looking for sources about best endonyms and exonyms (section was previously called " 'Self' names versus 'Outsider' names"). Which of several to use? In their language (usally written in IPA) or which of several Anglicizations? --or both? Thank you.
The # Endonyms and exonyms section first appeared as "'Self' names versus 'Outsider' names",
This usage can have some importance and usefulness where tribes are or may be adopting their original names, and versions in Native languages exist as well as various Anglicizations. So far, a manual of style has not been much help 'cause the issue is not very prominent, though it can have import for Native issues in media.
-- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Stumbled into this article when linking from another. Thought this section could be enhanced with the addition of some links.
As I read, I found the copy to be somewhat confusing to read, so I also added the "confusing" tag. I can help out with clarification, though my knowledge on the subject is very limited. Thought there should be some discussion first?
Also am uncertain whether I added the correct link for the term "agency". There are several. I assume the definition I added is correct, but could it instead be this one? -- KeithB 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
quick question, forgive my ignorance but did native americans in the united states and canada come to adopt to european sounding names or were these names forced upon them? just a little curious how native americans today have surnames such as "schmidt" and "weiss". 205.188.116.8 23:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not know if anybody cares, but I'll write this anyway. In Finnish Native American is "Intiaani". Indian( of India) is "Intialainen". Both have the base word of Intia(=India). I have not heard that the old term has got politicaly incorrect. However this may be since I am not aware of any Finnish speaking native american, but I think in global world there has to be at least one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.117.173 ( talk • contribs) 22 May 2006
I am a U.S. natural-born citizen of Ojibwe heritage who happens to speak Finnish as well (although not fluently). On one hand, I take offense at the Finns' use of 'Intiaani' (a loan; Swedish, English?) to describe the Indigenous peoples of the U.S. On the other, I realize that many Finns and Finnish speakers do not have personal experience with Native Americans or the issues surrounding them. I do wonder, though, both how the issue (if it is an issue) is thought of in Finland, as well as other countries. If anyone can shed more light on the subject, that would be great. ChillinChaz 21:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Although I just added some CanCon (that's "Canadian content" for south-of-the-liners, aka USians), on a quick scan through the rest of other sections such as "Native" I see this page is heavily USAcentric in content/perspective. I'm not sure the "globalize" tag is appropriate as I see a lot of efforts towards discussing global usage: I'm just a bit offed, or something, that there's little here re parallel/non-parallel usages in Canada. I know, I know, I can add it myself - but I'm busy (see contribs) - but this as a note to contributors to this page to bear in mind that over half of North Aemrica's aboriginal people live in Canada, and Canada does exist and also have a separate language/terminological range than what's described here at present.Skookum1 (Talk) 04:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that the term 'Indigenous' seems very similar to the term 'Indian'...Is it possible that Indian has just been used unknowingly as a short 'slang' of Indigenous(like perhaps: Indie-an)? Even stranger is that in Catalan, and French the word for Indian is Indigene(Indigene+ous=Indigenous) -- Hrödberäht 06:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a small section from the intro that made some unfounded speculation. In reviewing edits, this mostly seems to have been a result of someone removing the phrase politically correct and trying to replace it with some arm-waving about the degree to which terms were accepted. [8] This modified the meaning of the text substantially, and I don't think the replacement stood on its own. While this whole article needs to be edited to more carefully reflect the state of the controversy outside of Wikipedia (to avoid being original research), I thought that this one example was glaring enough to justify a quick edit. [9] I then added back the reference to smaller ethnic groupings having related controversies, by putting it into the "See also" section. [10] None of this addresses any of the larger concerns, but I thought picking some low hanging fruit would be worth it. - Harmil 21:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't looked for them on this page previously; just happened to notice the most recent edit:
I'm wondering if it's not also a propos to say:
Hi Ronbo76! I was trying to make this article more date consistent as per: Manual of Style
Before Present is used for radiocarbon dating when the extact date hasn't been calibrated from the raw data yet. As such, it makes no sense for it to be in this article about what the American indians should be called. I don't know who put it in the article but he should have used a source that had a more specific range in the Julian calendar. You left a note saying not all indians accept the Julian calendar. That is irrelevent, as per the Manual of Style I linked above. To save you the time, the quick summary is Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but should be consistent within an article. You can give dates in any appropriate calendar, as long as you also give the date in either the Julian or Gregorian calendar Therefore since the article thinks the date is "definitively at least 4,000 years B.P", it should be converted into the Julian calendar because there is nothing definate about B.P. and it's usage here is inconsistent with the rest of the article.
I am also unclear on the note you left - "not all Native Americans accept A.D." Ok...what do some of them accept and how is it relevent to this specific article? Did you mean the usage of C.E instead of A.D.? How do you know this? Were you aware that most of the world (except Asia) uses A.D. because they use the Gregorian calendar? Wikipedia voted on this issue at BCE/CE debate two years ago but it was rejected. Invasion10 12:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
In articles about prehistory, if you use BP ( before present) or MYA ( million years ago), expand these abbreviations when you first use them, as most readers will be unfamiliar with them.
In my experience, outside of the USA, and especially outside of the West, Indian always means from India and you have to state that you mean otherwise. Is this common, or is it just me? Should it be mentioned in the article? ɱўɭĩє What did I do wrong 16:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Question. Should we change the article title from "controversy" to something more neutral like "Native American naming conventions?".
This question appears at the top of the page but it's been two years so I'm asking again. The reason I ask is that I think it's unfair to Native Americans to call everything a controversy. Some of these names are uncontroversial, and the history of names is not in controversy, it's just a history. Some of the name changes are attempts to set the record straight or help people understand things. If the article is called "controversy" it suggests that the point of the article is to talk about the fighting, not the use of different words. Some people think everything about Native American politics and identity is a matter of controversy, fighting, factions, camps, etc....maybe we should talk about the group like we would any other group (e.g. the country is sometimes called America or the US or the States, but we don't call that a controversy, do we?).
Of course there is a controversy from time to time, and we should be fair to let people know that some usages are controversial, just perhaps make that a section instead of the main focus of the article.
Any thoughts? Wikidemo 22:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Flagged as the article has "some", "often", "many", "a few", "usually" a bit too often. Gront ( talk) 05:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Russell Means, an activist in the American Indian Movement, said in 1998, "I abhor the term Native American...I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins." [1] [2]
Reading this, it would seem that Means is willing to identify with the name even as a historical mistake (as "I know its origins" would imply). However, checking the actual quote, it would seem that he fosters a fake etymology for the term (as a corruption of the Spanish En Dio). It's a small issue, but it certainly changes the meaning- one which allows him to accept the term on a basis of elevated meaning. Should this be noted, or should the quote be revised? One could certainly use a more honest quotation of the source which would convey the intended sentiment:
It seems like a small issue, but there is certainly a disconnect from reading the quotation here and then reading the same quote in context.-- C.Logan ( talk) 20:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I am about to study abroad in Bolivia, which is the only New World country with an indigenous majority. I was reading that "indigena" is considered offensive there, and the term "campesino" (Spanish for peasant) is preferred. It also mentions that the word "cholo" is a derogatory term for indigenous peoples when used by non-indigenous peoples, but some indigenous Bolivians have controversially adopted it as a term of endearment amongst themselves, in the same way that some African Americans use the "N" word. Might these terms be relevant to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.68.111.193 ( talk) 00:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
The article offers two opposed opinions on whether this word is offensive in Mexico, neither of them backed up by anything. Which is correct? Farannan ( talk) 18:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
However, in scientific circles the term Amerind is often restricted to a subset of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, mostly from South and Central America, Mexico and the Southern United States. The peoples in this group share many genetic and cultural features that set them apart from the Na-Dene peoples, which comprise the majority of the U.S. and southern Canada indigenous peoples, and from the Eskimo peoples in Alaska and the Canadian Arctic: (Inuit, Yupik, and Aleut). Many anthropologists believe that these Amerind peoples are the descendants of the first immigrant wave from Siberia (15,000–10,000 years ago).[citation needed]
The above paragraph makes it seem as if the majority of Native Americans in the United States are Na-Dene, when in fact the Na-Dene only comprise a handful of groups (though some, like the Navajo, are admittedly big populations). The East Coast natives such as the Iroquoian and Algonquin speaking peoples were certainly not Na-Dene, but many of them did not live in the Southern United States. -- 129.68.111.193 ( talk) 23:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The offensivness of this word is NOT clear cut nor universal. It might even qualify as an urban myth that has been repeated so much that it ends up becoming true. There is already a wikipedia page foe squaw so this page should just link to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 ( talk) 08:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The section "Description and usage" says:
Thus it uses "Indian" as a term which can optionally include the Inuit, Aleut, and Native Hawaiians. But elsewhere the article says "The American Heritage Dictionary excludes Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuit from Indian in an American context," and I believe that that is standard usage.
I propose that in items 1-4 above, "Indians" be replaced by "indigenous peoples". 75.183.96.242 ( talk) 16:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
In Generaliezed arguments about any naming convention,
"the notion that a name was provided by an outsider and not the individual Tribe or Indian people at large; Nez Perce is a French word; "Native American" was coined by the US Government);"
"Nez Perce" is not a French word —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.78.166 ( talk) 04:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Native American Indian. Controversy ended 72.197.227.147 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC).
Native Americans should be called simply "Americans" and non-Native American people should be called "Foreign Americans". 69.211.89.123 15:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Mohammad al-Assad
The article states (in the Meaning of Basic Terms section): ...
The term Indian is commonly thought to have begun with the misconception by Christopher Columbus that the Caribbean islands were the islands in Southeast Asia known to Europeans as the Indies, which he had hoped to reach by sailing west across the Atlantic. Even though Columbus's mistake was soon recognized, the name stuck, and for centuries the native people of the Americas were collectively called Indians.
I have often heard it said that this is just an urban legend, and the term "Indian" comes from the the Spanish phrase "En Dios" - meaning "in with God" or "of God" or "in God's image." Whether this is true or not, wouldn't it be a good idea to clear this up? How about stating the two theories about the word's origin? Then, lay down the verdict about which is right and which is apocryphal, if indeed that verdict is established. jg ( talk) 21:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
There's an urban myth that Columbus used the phrase 'una gente in Dios', and that is really where the name comes from. I've added a reference to show that this is a myth. [11] Dougweller ( talk) 18:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to take a crack at editing this page for clarity and to simplify the language. Any objections? MinervaK ( talk) 06:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Everytime I time I come across this title I keep thinking it is something else when I first see it. This current name makes it sound like the term "Native American" is the disputed topic. But it is a perfectly legit name to mean a Native- American(Person of the United States).
"American" is usually a term reserved to mean the United States. Similar to:
etc.
If this article is of a western hemispheric nature it probably should be named to a more correct context maybe more along the lines of the main article. Maybe a better rename would be "indigenous peoples of the Americas name controversy". A new title would be more grammatically correct, less confusing and would be actually what the article is really all about. If you boil this all down the naming controversy is really about the indigenous people's throughout all of the Americans and not a native person of United States origin.
CaribDigita ( talk) 05:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Whew. There was a lot of extraneous and duplicate information in this article (stuff about the Peyote religion, NAC, basic word definitions, etc.), which I took out today while trying to retain the stuff that seemed valuable as stub matter. I'm leaving it pretty "bare bones" for now and will try to do more tomorrow.
In general, do people think that this article needs to cover debates about naming conditions in other languages, or in non English-speaking locations? The article title suggests that the debate is focused mostly on the term "Native American," and I'm unsure whether it should properly extend into areas like south America, where that English term isn't part of the debate. My knowledge and experience is only with the U.S.-based debate so I'm going to need help if we want the article to have a global scope, and if we *do* want it to have global scope, I think it should be renamed to something more general, like "naming convention debates regarding indigenous peoples."
If there's a better place to post these questions, lemme know. I may go over and put it up on the Indigenous Peoples Project talk page... MinervaK ( talk) 07:16, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Glad to see someone else is working on the page! I think the additions to the opening paragraph are valuable, but *please* be sure to go through the whole article and remove duplicate information further down.
Some points for discussion:
MinervaK ( talk) 20:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't do this again. I put in a lot of work removing duplicate and poorly-written material. If you want to discuss, I'm happy to do so; I posted requests for discussion here on the talk page (see above) and on the Indigenous Peoples Project talk page. In addition, the reversion was done while I had the page on 'inuse' which is just plain rude. I'm happy to have the article *improved*, but wholesale reversion like this isn't productive. Thanks MinervaK ( talk) 06:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Christopher Columbus didn't think he had arrived to India. When he arrived in Cuba, he actually thought he had arrived in Japan which in his letters (logs) he refers to as Cipango, using the name given hundreds of years earlier by Marco Polo. From Cuba he undertakes his search for Cathay, as Marco Polo called China. Indio/India was actually a Spanish word meaning black or someone of dark skin. Even today in some regions in Latin America people say Indian eyes to refer to a person who has black eyes.-- tequendamia 12:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Per this, which is one of the citations used for the current section linked above, "Columbus thought he had made it to India, which at the time was a very broad term in the European imagination, encompassing all of southern and eastern Asia. This vague mental geography in part had to do with the way goods were shipped from the East. The riches of China, Japan, and the islands of southeast Asia were brought first to ports on the southern shore of the Indian subcontinent before being shipped onwards, so Europeans tended to see all of these Asian goods as coming from India (a name that derives from the Indus River). Since the time of Ptolemy, this expansive notion of India was broken down into different divisions, such as "Greater India," "Middle India," and "Lesser India." Thus Europeans would often pluralize India as the Indies." [12]. He iro 21:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states:
What evidence is there that this is an intentional mispronunciation? I always assumed it was simply a case of "Indian" being pronounced with a particularly strong "Old Prospector"-type accent (in which case if there was any "mockery" involved, it would be more likely to be of the person who would supposedly use the term, rather than of the Indians themselves).
And as for "universally considered derogatory and bigoted" - that's a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it? I've never heard it described as either of those. (On the other hand, I've very rarely heard it used at all, except in a "mock Old West" context).
(I'm British and living in England, if that adds any perspective). 212.159.79.130 19:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
To re-open this discussion… I do not think that it can be supported that the pronunciation is "intentional mockery of Native Amaricans". Nor that it is intended to represent "poor English" spoken by Native Americans. The -jun in Injun is not related at all to the suffixed syllable -um as given in Wikidemon's example; it is, rather, an eye-dialect spelling of the normal phonetic process whereby palatalized [d] becomes [dʒ]. In many dialects of English the word drink is efectively pronounced jrink by a similar phonetic process. Both Ingin and Injun are attested dialect spellings (the former attested in the OED at 1683, 1869, and 1870, and the latter in 1812, 1850, 1853, 1868 1872, 1889, 1911, 1937, 1959, and 1973). The 1812 citation in full is: (Col. J. Cocke in Salem Gaz. 28 Aug. 1/2 The people of Tenessee is antious to have orders commanded out for us to march against the injuns on the Wabash. Note too the spelling antious showing dialect where [ˈæŋkʃəs] has become [ˈæntʃəs] as well as the use of is for are. The 1853 citation shows the same dialect process: (M. Reid Rifle Rangers (ed. 2) I. iii. 24) Thur's a mighty grist o' venturin', I heern; beats Injun fightin' all holler. The term honest injun is first attested in 1876 (Mark Twain) with the dialect spelling, but in fact is attested in 1676 with standard spelling (J. Talcott Let. 8 June in S. Judd Hist. Hadley (1905) xv. 169) We sent 27 women and children to Norwich under conduct of some of those we call honest Indians. which does not appear to be particularly pejorative—mildly xenophobic perhaps, but that's a reflection on the European settlers. In none of the citations in the OED is there any evidence that the pronunciation written Injun or the phrase "honest Injun" is any kind of "impersonation" of Native American English. Those assertions in this article seem to be unsupported original research. And again, Wikidemon's assertion that the shift from [ˈɪndiən] to [ˈɪndʒən] "not anybody's real accent" is simply incorrect. -- Evertype· ✆ 08:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Many terms for Native Americans are left out that are truly unacceptable or racist, should they be mentioned here, perhaps in a section in the end? Red Indians used to be included, perhaps redskins, injun, etc. I put Eskimo in the external links; however, it should probably be mentioned in the article, since the term is acceptable in to some in Alaska and not in Canada. None of the books listed are cited, and the article desperately needs citations. I'll try to dig up anything about Latin American terminology. - Uyvsdi ( talk) 19:44, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Inuit.2C_Inupiat_and_Yupik http://www.isteve.com/2002_Name_Game_Inuit_or_Eskimo.htm No one word covers eskimos (alaskan natives) & inuit, this should be mentioned as the term does not apply to peoples of Canada or Greenland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.162.138.165 ( talk) 13:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I can't find a source for the Columbus passport part. Does anyone know where if comes from? Straight Dope mentions it but omits sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjbauer95 ( talk • contribs) 02:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
I have heard this term used to refer to people who are First Nations, however I have recently seen it in article to refer to Native Canadians, born and raised in Canada versus first generation Canadian Immigrant (born elsewhere, Canadian citizen). As a general comment on this article, the source of all the controversy is that any term that tries to define an ethnicity may be seen as racist or derogatory as usually these terms come from one ethnic group describing another ethnic group. Maybe the focus of this page should be to simply list the terms, state where and when it was predominantly in use, and whether the term is now obsolete or considered racist. Maybe also a bit about the history of the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murmullo ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
This edit of mine I reversed, as I had the wrong film title remembered....not North by Northwest as I'd remembered......the film was about a German submarine crew who land on Hudson Bay, take over the HBC post, then journey overland into Manitoba and wind up on a Hutterite commune....major-name stars....."blue-eyed klootch" is in the script, also in the original novel; it's more of a Prairie term referring to Metis women, I don't think I've ever heard/seen it in British Columbia. I'll dig around and find the film/book title....and re "siwash"/"sawash", I've had a look around online, not an easy google due to so many wikiclones.....there will be discussions in the archives of the CHINOOK listerve about it, I don't think those would be valid cites even though the participants are noted scholars and the language person for the Grand Ronde agency....the Siwash article is currently a dab without comment on the pejorative context of this term, and needs expansion in that regard; many placenames, though not all, in BC, using "Siwash" have been changed because of the derisive context this word usually has. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
HOW DID INDIANS CALLED THEIR LAND"
"America" is a European name given by white colonists. Also, the language that most Americans use is English (American dialect)...but how called the indigenous people to the land where they lived. Probably, as there were dozens of different tribes with different languages each called their territory in a different way.--
83.32.84.197 (
talk) 12:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
The article says:
In Britain and some other English-speaking countries outside the Americas, the term Red Indian is still used to differentiate the American natives from the "East Indians".
Well, as a British person I can't deny that the term is still used in Britain; however, this statement does make it seem as though it's common and acceptable usage here. It isn't - and generally speaking, as far as I'm aware, usage in the UK is split between 'Indian' or 'Native American'. Where 'Red Indian' is used it's usually (and I say this as neutrally as I can) by older people who either don't realise it's now considered offensive, or who have simply always used the term and don't intend to change. It's a fact that some people aren't as aware of changes in convention - such as those who still use 'coloured' to refer to black people because they genuinely think it's an acceptable, non-offensive euphemism.
Unfortunately I can't offer any firm citations that would help to defend the UK from the statement made above, but I would appreciate it if someone with more information could look at amending it. - Skadus ( talk) 10:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Crikey! Which part of PC Britain do you live in? Other than on TV and in newspapers I've never once heard of the term Native American being used in Britain. 'Indian' or 'Red Indian' are used universally in ordinary coversation as far as I've ever encountered. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.111.75 ( talk) 18:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 19:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm trying to clean up the "Further Reading" material section but am confused as to the meaning of some of the entries.
I can either delete them if they are some sort of bibliography we don't need, or link to them if they are useful (albeit the makings of a very long further reading section); but right now they appear confusing and useless:
* Dailey, Tom (June 14, 2006). "Duwamish-Seattle". Coastsalishmap.org. Retrieved 2006-04-21.
** Dailey referenced "Puget Sound Geography" by T. T. Waterman. Washington DC: National Anthropological Archives, mss. [n.d.] [ref. 2];
** Duwamish et al. vs. United States of America, F-275. Washington DC: US Court of Claims, 1927. [ref. 5];
** "Indian Lake Washington" by David Buerge in the Seattle Weekly, 1–7 August 1984 [ref. 8];
** "Seattle Before Seattle" by David Buerge in the Seattle Weekly, 17–23 December 1980. [ref. 9];
** The Puyallup-Nisqually by Marian W. Smith. New York: Columbia University Press, 1940. [ref. 10].
meteor_sandwich_yum ( talk) 00:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Since the confusion derives from an apparent error by Columbus regarding whether or not he was in"the indies", and since people from south Asia are also known as "Indians", perhaps we should add them as a party to this controversy. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 14:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Watchers of this page might be interested in this discussion, regarding whether this phrase should be discussed on the article Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Cheers. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 14:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
There was a line in the section "Redskin" under "name controversy" that compared the use of "redskin" to the term "pale skin." I'm not sure how long this line existed, but it was recently altered by an editor to show that it was an invention of Hollywood. Regardless of the term's etymology, neither sentence was cited so should be removed. Even with a citation, the reference's place in this article is questionable. At no point in the wiki article on the use of nigger does it make any parrallels with african-american euphanisms about whites. To say that such euphanysms are somehow equal, or equally perjorative, is dismissive of the entire culture and oppression these races have suffered at the hands of whites. Such a reference to pale face in this article is equally dismissive and has no place. StarHOG ( talk) 17:21, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
The section notes historical usage of the term "heathen" by European Christians to refer to the native peoples, saying that this was based on the natives "perceived lack of religious belief." That's not accurate, is it? Heathen, historically, hasn't been used to mean "someone with no religious beliefs," but rather a non-Christian. As far as I'm aware, the European settlers were aware of and discussed native religious beliefs. I've never heard anything to suggest that they thought that the indigenous people were atheist. OrthodoxLinguist ( talk) 02:56, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Mann
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
For more detail on why this article exists, see the discussion at Talk:Native Americans. - Harmil 23:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
When I first wrote, " North America", in the lead paragraph I did mean to include Mexico, as some comments on Talk:Native Americans and other sources had lead me to think that the term "Native American" might be more common than I thought there. However, on doing more research on WP and other sites, I found that indeed the Mexican terminology (even when writing in English) is primarily Spanish, so the recent edit is correct in retrospect, thanks for fixing my gaff. - Harmil 23:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
;)
.Forgetting all of this, I then went and edited it back... sigh, some days I wish I had a brain. Still, I think the new wording has some merit. Any concerns? If there are, we can put it back, but that brings the Mexico section into question, perhaps as it should be. - Harmil 12:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
If one were to sail "around" the Cape of Good Hope, they would soon run aground on the shores of Falsche Bay. The Cape of Good Hope is not the southern-most point of Africa, and this article's saying so perpetuates a widely percieved falacy. Corrected.
A large number of changes were made by Jorge Stolfi, some of which do not seem to have been well thought out. For example, there some grammar problems such as:
Which is to say that "them" is quite ambiguous. Also, there are some "constroversies" which I've never heard of any controversy surrounding ("of" vs. "in") that could use some citations. Generally, such major structural changes are better brought to the talk page first. I won't simply revert the changes, but I will leave a note on his user page and ask for a response. - Harmil 12:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
To what three continents does this section refer? I only count two (North America and South America). Cparker 17:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Jorge, you seem to have done quite a bit more than just copyedit this document. Could you please either back out your changes or rectify the problems that I and Cparker have pointed out? - Harmil 22:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Howdy, I realize this is a bit out of protocol, but would anyone mind taking a look at the Talk:Squamish, British Columbia#Indian v. First nation discussion. It is a dispute about name useage (i.e. the topic of this article), and seems to be limited to myself and another user, and outside perspectives might be useful. Many thanks, -- Hansnesse 05:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
To me the biggest part of the thing is that Indian means people from India, not Native people in America, other place have native too.... 142.161.94.69 23:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
"[I]s an ongoing dispute over": reword as "is an ongoing debate" or (better), "ongoing discussion on"? This may not be about exclusively one or another, or sensational terms like "dispute" rather than "reasoned debate". Per Brunner (2006), d'Errico (2005), and, intriguingly, Mann (2005), this seems to be transcending acrimony and is illuminating the usefulness of multiple prespectives, not unlike the Buhhdist or Jain parable (Indian, no less). -- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
<!-- This is not a comprehensive list, but a short overview of the most widely used handful of terms -->
This could be useful to readers. Maybe just mention why or how so, for example per search engine ranking. Much of this controversy can be ameliorated with awareness and mention that schools of thought exist. -- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The US bias of the term Indian Wars has taken it as a given that that term should be used for the particular set of wars in the United States known in US history as the Indian Wars; interestingly they don't usually use it to include the Rogue River Wars, the Yakima War or Cayuse War and the wars of extermination in California, which are before the Plains and Southwest-focus of the usual context of "Indian Wars" in US historical writing (and movie-making). So wars in Canada, Mexico and Russian America, and anything pre-Civil War (technically, although I've gotten a consensus on Talk:Indian Wars about the Yakima and Cayuse Wars needing inclusion), are supposed to be on Native American wars. Which is really crazy, because "Native American", as "we" know from this page and other discussions outside and inside of Wikispace, is a purely American term and not suitable for native peoples outside of the US. So I've been asking for a resolution of this: what to call the wars in Canada, Mexico, Russian America, ostensibly in other parts of the Spanish New World, too; "Native American Wars" will NOT do. Certainly if a Canadian were to search he/she is NOT going to search for " Native American wars". Thoughts? Skookum1 18:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"War on indigenous peoples", per d'Errico (1995). [6] --19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
'Looking for leads toward references (so I may document whereof I write). Have editors any sources for edits made? Thank you.
Very useful article, well written. Just a suggestion, with sources ( Wikipedia:Cite sources, ), it could be deserving of a good rating ( Wikipedia:What is a good article). Even a bibliography and "[[Author last name] (year)]" at the end of sections could be useful. (Having "pp. [pages]" (where relevant), Wikipedia:Citation templates would be frosting on the cake.) The following may already be familiar:
== Notes and references ==
Adding this: {{subst:Footnotes}} generates this:
== Bibliography ==
--19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
'Particularly looking for sources about best endonyms and exonyms (section was previously called " 'Self' names versus 'Outsider' names"). Which of several to use? In their language (usally written in IPA) or which of several Anglicizations? --or both? Thank you.
The # Endonyms and exonyms section first appeared as "'Self' names versus 'Outsider' names",
This usage can have some importance and usefulness where tribes are or may be adopting their original names, and versions in Native languages exist as well as various Anglicizations. So far, a manual of style has not been much help 'cause the issue is not very prominent, though it can have import for Native issues in media.
-- GoDot 19:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Stumbled into this article when linking from another. Thought this section could be enhanced with the addition of some links.
As I read, I found the copy to be somewhat confusing to read, so I also added the "confusing" tag. I can help out with clarification, though my knowledge on the subject is very limited. Thought there should be some discussion first?
Also am uncertain whether I added the correct link for the term "agency". There are several. I assume the definition I added is correct, but could it instead be this one? -- KeithB 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
quick question, forgive my ignorance but did native americans in the united states and canada come to adopt to european sounding names or were these names forced upon them? just a little curious how native americans today have surnames such as "schmidt" and "weiss". 205.188.116.8 23:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not know if anybody cares, but I'll write this anyway. In Finnish Native American is "Intiaani". Indian( of India) is "Intialainen". Both have the base word of Intia(=India). I have not heard that the old term has got politicaly incorrect. However this may be since I am not aware of any Finnish speaking native american, but I think in global world there has to be at least one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.117.173 ( talk • contribs) 22 May 2006
I am a U.S. natural-born citizen of Ojibwe heritage who happens to speak Finnish as well (although not fluently). On one hand, I take offense at the Finns' use of 'Intiaani' (a loan; Swedish, English?) to describe the Indigenous peoples of the U.S. On the other, I realize that many Finns and Finnish speakers do not have personal experience with Native Americans or the issues surrounding them. I do wonder, though, both how the issue (if it is an issue) is thought of in Finland, as well as other countries. If anyone can shed more light on the subject, that would be great. ChillinChaz 21:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Although I just added some CanCon (that's "Canadian content" for south-of-the-liners, aka USians), on a quick scan through the rest of other sections such as "Native" I see this page is heavily USAcentric in content/perspective. I'm not sure the "globalize" tag is appropriate as I see a lot of efforts towards discussing global usage: I'm just a bit offed, or something, that there's little here re parallel/non-parallel usages in Canada. I know, I know, I can add it myself - but I'm busy (see contribs) - but this as a note to contributors to this page to bear in mind that over half of North Aemrica's aboriginal people live in Canada, and Canada does exist and also have a separate language/terminological range than what's described here at present.Skookum1 (Talk) 04:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that the term 'Indigenous' seems very similar to the term 'Indian'...Is it possible that Indian has just been used unknowingly as a short 'slang' of Indigenous(like perhaps: Indie-an)? Even stranger is that in Catalan, and French the word for Indian is Indigene(Indigene+ous=Indigenous) -- Hrödberäht 06:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a small section from the intro that made some unfounded speculation. In reviewing edits, this mostly seems to have been a result of someone removing the phrase politically correct and trying to replace it with some arm-waving about the degree to which terms were accepted. [8] This modified the meaning of the text substantially, and I don't think the replacement stood on its own. While this whole article needs to be edited to more carefully reflect the state of the controversy outside of Wikipedia (to avoid being original research), I thought that this one example was glaring enough to justify a quick edit. [9] I then added back the reference to smaller ethnic groupings having related controversies, by putting it into the "See also" section. [10] None of this addresses any of the larger concerns, but I thought picking some low hanging fruit would be worth it. - Harmil 21:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't looked for them on this page previously; just happened to notice the most recent edit:
I'm wondering if it's not also a propos to say:
Hi Ronbo76! I was trying to make this article more date consistent as per: Manual of Style
Before Present is used for radiocarbon dating when the extact date hasn't been calibrated from the raw data yet. As such, it makes no sense for it to be in this article about what the American indians should be called. I don't know who put it in the article but he should have used a source that had a more specific range in the Julian calendar. You left a note saying not all indians accept the Julian calendar. That is irrelevent, as per the Manual of Style I linked above. To save you the time, the quick summary is Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but should be consistent within an article. You can give dates in any appropriate calendar, as long as you also give the date in either the Julian or Gregorian calendar Therefore since the article thinks the date is "definitively at least 4,000 years B.P", it should be converted into the Julian calendar because there is nothing definate about B.P. and it's usage here is inconsistent with the rest of the article.
I am also unclear on the note you left - "not all Native Americans accept A.D." Ok...what do some of them accept and how is it relevent to this specific article? Did you mean the usage of C.E instead of A.D.? How do you know this? Were you aware that most of the world (except Asia) uses A.D. because they use the Gregorian calendar? Wikipedia voted on this issue at BCE/CE debate two years ago but it was rejected. Invasion10 12:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
In articles about prehistory, if you use BP ( before present) or MYA ( million years ago), expand these abbreviations when you first use them, as most readers will be unfamiliar with them.
In my experience, outside of the USA, and especially outside of the West, Indian always means from India and you have to state that you mean otherwise. Is this common, or is it just me? Should it be mentioned in the article? ɱўɭĩє What did I do wrong 16:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Question. Should we change the article title from "controversy" to something more neutral like "Native American naming conventions?".
This question appears at the top of the page but it's been two years so I'm asking again. The reason I ask is that I think it's unfair to Native Americans to call everything a controversy. Some of these names are uncontroversial, and the history of names is not in controversy, it's just a history. Some of the name changes are attempts to set the record straight or help people understand things. If the article is called "controversy" it suggests that the point of the article is to talk about the fighting, not the use of different words. Some people think everything about Native American politics and identity is a matter of controversy, fighting, factions, camps, etc....maybe we should talk about the group like we would any other group (e.g. the country is sometimes called America or the US or the States, but we don't call that a controversy, do we?).
Of course there is a controversy from time to time, and we should be fair to let people know that some usages are controversial, just perhaps make that a section instead of the main focus of the article.
Any thoughts? Wikidemo 22:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Flagged as the article has "some", "often", "many", "a few", "usually" a bit too often. Gront ( talk) 05:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Russell Means, an activist in the American Indian Movement, said in 1998, "I abhor the term Native American...I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins." [1] [2]
Reading this, it would seem that Means is willing to identify with the name even as a historical mistake (as "I know its origins" would imply). However, checking the actual quote, it would seem that he fosters a fake etymology for the term (as a corruption of the Spanish En Dio). It's a small issue, but it certainly changes the meaning- one which allows him to accept the term on a basis of elevated meaning. Should this be noted, or should the quote be revised? One could certainly use a more honest quotation of the source which would convey the intended sentiment:
It seems like a small issue, but there is certainly a disconnect from reading the quotation here and then reading the same quote in context.-- C.Logan ( talk) 20:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I am about to study abroad in Bolivia, which is the only New World country with an indigenous majority. I was reading that "indigena" is considered offensive there, and the term "campesino" (Spanish for peasant) is preferred. It also mentions that the word "cholo" is a derogatory term for indigenous peoples when used by non-indigenous peoples, but some indigenous Bolivians have controversially adopted it as a term of endearment amongst themselves, in the same way that some African Americans use the "N" word. Might these terms be relevant to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.68.111.193 ( talk) 00:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
The article offers two opposed opinions on whether this word is offensive in Mexico, neither of them backed up by anything. Which is correct? Farannan ( talk) 18:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
However, in scientific circles the term Amerind is often restricted to a subset of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, mostly from South and Central America, Mexico and the Southern United States. The peoples in this group share many genetic and cultural features that set them apart from the Na-Dene peoples, which comprise the majority of the U.S. and southern Canada indigenous peoples, and from the Eskimo peoples in Alaska and the Canadian Arctic: (Inuit, Yupik, and Aleut). Many anthropologists believe that these Amerind peoples are the descendants of the first immigrant wave from Siberia (15,000–10,000 years ago).[citation needed]
The above paragraph makes it seem as if the majority of Native Americans in the United States are Na-Dene, when in fact the Na-Dene only comprise a handful of groups (though some, like the Navajo, are admittedly big populations). The East Coast natives such as the Iroquoian and Algonquin speaking peoples were certainly not Na-Dene, but many of them did not live in the Southern United States. -- 129.68.111.193 ( talk) 23:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The offensivness of this word is NOT clear cut nor universal. It might even qualify as an urban myth that has been repeated so much that it ends up becoming true. There is already a wikipedia page foe squaw so this page should just link to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 ( talk) 08:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The section "Description and usage" says:
Thus it uses "Indian" as a term which can optionally include the Inuit, Aleut, and Native Hawaiians. But elsewhere the article says "The American Heritage Dictionary excludes Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuit from Indian in an American context," and I believe that that is standard usage.
I propose that in items 1-4 above, "Indians" be replaced by "indigenous peoples". 75.183.96.242 ( talk) 16:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
In Generaliezed arguments about any naming convention,
"the notion that a name was provided by an outsider and not the individual Tribe or Indian people at large; Nez Perce is a French word; "Native American" was coined by the US Government);"
"Nez Perce" is not a French word —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.78.166 ( talk) 04:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Native American Indian. Controversy ended 72.197.227.147 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC).
Native Americans should be called simply "Americans" and non-Native American people should be called "Foreign Americans". 69.211.89.123 15:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Mohammad al-Assad
The article states (in the Meaning of Basic Terms section): ...
The term Indian is commonly thought to have begun with the misconception by Christopher Columbus that the Caribbean islands were the islands in Southeast Asia known to Europeans as the Indies, which he had hoped to reach by sailing west across the Atlantic. Even though Columbus's mistake was soon recognized, the name stuck, and for centuries the native people of the Americas were collectively called Indians.
I have often heard it said that this is just an urban legend, and the term "Indian" comes from the the Spanish phrase "En Dios" - meaning "in with God" or "of God" or "in God's image." Whether this is true or not, wouldn't it be a good idea to clear this up? How about stating the two theories about the word's origin? Then, lay down the verdict about which is right and which is apocryphal, if indeed that verdict is established. jg ( talk) 21:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
There's an urban myth that Columbus used the phrase 'una gente in Dios', and that is really where the name comes from. I've added a reference to show that this is a myth. [11] Dougweller ( talk) 18:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to take a crack at editing this page for clarity and to simplify the language. Any objections? MinervaK ( talk) 06:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Everytime I time I come across this title I keep thinking it is something else when I first see it. This current name makes it sound like the term "Native American" is the disputed topic. But it is a perfectly legit name to mean a Native- American(Person of the United States).
"American" is usually a term reserved to mean the United States. Similar to:
etc.
If this article is of a western hemispheric nature it probably should be named to a more correct context maybe more along the lines of the main article. Maybe a better rename would be "indigenous peoples of the Americas name controversy". A new title would be more grammatically correct, less confusing and would be actually what the article is really all about. If you boil this all down the naming controversy is really about the indigenous people's throughout all of the Americans and not a native person of United States origin.
CaribDigita ( talk) 05:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Whew. There was a lot of extraneous and duplicate information in this article (stuff about the Peyote religion, NAC, basic word definitions, etc.), which I took out today while trying to retain the stuff that seemed valuable as stub matter. I'm leaving it pretty "bare bones" for now and will try to do more tomorrow.
In general, do people think that this article needs to cover debates about naming conditions in other languages, or in non English-speaking locations? The article title suggests that the debate is focused mostly on the term "Native American," and I'm unsure whether it should properly extend into areas like south America, where that English term isn't part of the debate. My knowledge and experience is only with the U.S.-based debate so I'm going to need help if we want the article to have a global scope, and if we *do* want it to have global scope, I think it should be renamed to something more general, like "naming convention debates regarding indigenous peoples."
If there's a better place to post these questions, lemme know. I may go over and put it up on the Indigenous Peoples Project talk page... MinervaK ( talk) 07:16, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Glad to see someone else is working on the page! I think the additions to the opening paragraph are valuable, but *please* be sure to go through the whole article and remove duplicate information further down.
Some points for discussion:
MinervaK ( talk) 20:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't do this again. I put in a lot of work removing duplicate and poorly-written material. If you want to discuss, I'm happy to do so; I posted requests for discussion here on the talk page (see above) and on the Indigenous Peoples Project talk page. In addition, the reversion was done while I had the page on 'inuse' which is just plain rude. I'm happy to have the article *improved*, but wholesale reversion like this isn't productive. Thanks MinervaK ( talk) 06:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Christopher Columbus didn't think he had arrived to India. When he arrived in Cuba, he actually thought he had arrived in Japan which in his letters (logs) he refers to as Cipango, using the name given hundreds of years earlier by Marco Polo. From Cuba he undertakes his search for Cathay, as Marco Polo called China. Indio/India was actually a Spanish word meaning black or someone of dark skin. Even today in some regions in Latin America people say Indian eyes to refer to a person who has black eyes.-- tequendamia 12:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Per this, which is one of the citations used for the current section linked above, "Columbus thought he had made it to India, which at the time was a very broad term in the European imagination, encompassing all of southern and eastern Asia. This vague mental geography in part had to do with the way goods were shipped from the East. The riches of China, Japan, and the islands of southeast Asia were brought first to ports on the southern shore of the Indian subcontinent before being shipped onwards, so Europeans tended to see all of these Asian goods as coming from India (a name that derives from the Indus River). Since the time of Ptolemy, this expansive notion of India was broken down into different divisions, such as "Greater India," "Middle India," and "Lesser India." Thus Europeans would often pluralize India as the Indies." [12]. He iro 21:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states:
What evidence is there that this is an intentional mispronunciation? I always assumed it was simply a case of "Indian" being pronounced with a particularly strong "Old Prospector"-type accent (in which case if there was any "mockery" involved, it would be more likely to be of the person who would supposedly use the term, rather than of the Indians themselves).
And as for "universally considered derogatory and bigoted" - that's a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it? I've never heard it described as either of those. (On the other hand, I've very rarely heard it used at all, except in a "mock Old West" context).
(I'm British and living in England, if that adds any perspective). 212.159.79.130 19:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
To re-open this discussion… I do not think that it can be supported that the pronunciation is "intentional mockery of Native Amaricans". Nor that it is intended to represent "poor English" spoken by Native Americans. The -jun in Injun is not related at all to the suffixed syllable -um as given in Wikidemon's example; it is, rather, an eye-dialect spelling of the normal phonetic process whereby palatalized [d] becomes [dʒ]. In many dialects of English the word drink is efectively pronounced jrink by a similar phonetic process. Both Ingin and Injun are attested dialect spellings (the former attested in the OED at 1683, 1869, and 1870, and the latter in 1812, 1850, 1853, 1868 1872, 1889, 1911, 1937, 1959, and 1973). The 1812 citation in full is: (Col. J. Cocke in Salem Gaz. 28 Aug. 1/2 The people of Tenessee is antious to have orders commanded out for us to march against the injuns on the Wabash. Note too the spelling antious showing dialect where [ˈæŋkʃəs] has become [ˈæntʃəs] as well as the use of is for are. The 1853 citation shows the same dialect process: (M. Reid Rifle Rangers (ed. 2) I. iii. 24) Thur's a mighty grist o' venturin', I heern; beats Injun fightin' all holler. The term honest injun is first attested in 1876 (Mark Twain) with the dialect spelling, but in fact is attested in 1676 with standard spelling (J. Talcott Let. 8 June in S. Judd Hist. Hadley (1905) xv. 169) We sent 27 women and children to Norwich under conduct of some of those we call honest Indians. which does not appear to be particularly pejorative—mildly xenophobic perhaps, but that's a reflection on the European settlers. In none of the citations in the OED is there any evidence that the pronunciation written Injun or the phrase "honest Injun" is any kind of "impersonation" of Native American English. Those assertions in this article seem to be unsupported original research. And again, Wikidemon's assertion that the shift from [ˈɪndiən] to [ˈɪndʒən] "not anybody's real accent" is simply incorrect. -- Evertype· ✆ 08:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Many terms for Native Americans are left out that are truly unacceptable or racist, should they be mentioned here, perhaps in a section in the end? Red Indians used to be included, perhaps redskins, injun, etc. I put Eskimo in the external links; however, it should probably be mentioned in the article, since the term is acceptable in to some in Alaska and not in Canada. None of the books listed are cited, and the article desperately needs citations. I'll try to dig up anything about Latin American terminology. - Uyvsdi ( talk) 19:44, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Inuit.2C_Inupiat_and_Yupik http://www.isteve.com/2002_Name_Game_Inuit_or_Eskimo.htm No one word covers eskimos (alaskan natives) & inuit, this should be mentioned as the term does not apply to peoples of Canada or Greenland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.162.138.165 ( talk) 13:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I can't find a source for the Columbus passport part. Does anyone know where if comes from? Straight Dope mentions it but omits sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjbauer95 ( talk • contribs) 02:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
I have heard this term used to refer to people who are First Nations, however I have recently seen it in article to refer to Native Canadians, born and raised in Canada versus first generation Canadian Immigrant (born elsewhere, Canadian citizen). As a general comment on this article, the source of all the controversy is that any term that tries to define an ethnicity may be seen as racist or derogatory as usually these terms come from one ethnic group describing another ethnic group. Maybe the focus of this page should be to simply list the terms, state where and when it was predominantly in use, and whether the term is now obsolete or considered racist. Maybe also a bit about the history of the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murmullo ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
This edit of mine I reversed, as I had the wrong film title remembered....not North by Northwest as I'd remembered......the film was about a German submarine crew who land on Hudson Bay, take over the HBC post, then journey overland into Manitoba and wind up on a Hutterite commune....major-name stars....."blue-eyed klootch" is in the script, also in the original novel; it's more of a Prairie term referring to Metis women, I don't think I've ever heard/seen it in British Columbia. I'll dig around and find the film/book title....and re "siwash"/"sawash", I've had a look around online, not an easy google due to so many wikiclones.....there will be discussions in the archives of the CHINOOK listerve about it, I don't think those would be valid cites even though the participants are noted scholars and the language person for the Grand Ronde agency....the Siwash article is currently a dab without comment on the pejorative context of this term, and needs expansion in that regard; many placenames, though not all, in BC, using "Siwash" have been changed because of the derisive context this word usually has. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
HOW DID INDIANS CALLED THEIR LAND"
"America" is a European name given by white colonists. Also, the language that most Americans use is English (American dialect)...but how called the indigenous people to the land where they lived. Probably, as there were dozens of different tribes with different languages each called their territory in a different way.--
83.32.84.197 (
talk) 12:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
The article says:
In Britain and some other English-speaking countries outside the Americas, the term Red Indian is still used to differentiate the American natives from the "East Indians".
Well, as a British person I can't deny that the term is still used in Britain; however, this statement does make it seem as though it's common and acceptable usage here. It isn't - and generally speaking, as far as I'm aware, usage in the UK is split between 'Indian' or 'Native American'. Where 'Red Indian' is used it's usually (and I say this as neutrally as I can) by older people who either don't realise it's now considered offensive, or who have simply always used the term and don't intend to change. It's a fact that some people aren't as aware of changes in convention - such as those who still use 'coloured' to refer to black people because they genuinely think it's an acceptable, non-offensive euphemism.
Unfortunately I can't offer any firm citations that would help to defend the UK from the statement made above, but I would appreciate it if someone with more information could look at amending it. - Skadus ( talk) 10:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Crikey! Which part of PC Britain do you live in? Other than on TV and in newspapers I've never once heard of the term Native American being used in Britain. 'Indian' or 'Red Indian' are used universally in ordinary coversation as far as I've ever encountered. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.111.75 ( talk) 18:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 19:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I'm trying to clean up the "Further Reading" material section but am confused as to the meaning of some of the entries.
I can either delete them if they are some sort of bibliography we don't need, or link to them if they are useful (albeit the makings of a very long further reading section); but right now they appear confusing and useless:
* Dailey, Tom (June 14, 2006). "Duwamish-Seattle". Coastsalishmap.org. Retrieved 2006-04-21.
** Dailey referenced "Puget Sound Geography" by T. T. Waterman. Washington DC: National Anthropological Archives, mss. [n.d.] [ref. 2];
** Duwamish et al. vs. United States of America, F-275. Washington DC: US Court of Claims, 1927. [ref. 5];
** "Indian Lake Washington" by David Buerge in the Seattle Weekly, 1–7 August 1984 [ref. 8];
** "Seattle Before Seattle" by David Buerge in the Seattle Weekly, 17–23 December 1980. [ref. 9];
** The Puyallup-Nisqually by Marian W. Smith. New York: Columbia University Press, 1940. [ref. 10].
meteor_sandwich_yum ( talk) 00:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Since the confusion derives from an apparent error by Columbus regarding whether or not he was in"the indies", and since people from south Asia are also known as "Indians", perhaps we should add them as a party to this controversy. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 14:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Watchers of this page might be interested in this discussion, regarding whether this phrase should be discussed on the article Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Cheers. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 14:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
There was a line in the section "Redskin" under "name controversy" that compared the use of "redskin" to the term "pale skin." I'm not sure how long this line existed, but it was recently altered by an editor to show that it was an invention of Hollywood. Regardless of the term's etymology, neither sentence was cited so should be removed. Even with a citation, the reference's place in this article is questionable. At no point in the wiki article on the use of nigger does it make any parrallels with african-american euphanisms about whites. To say that such euphanysms are somehow equal, or equally perjorative, is dismissive of the entire culture and oppression these races have suffered at the hands of whites. Such a reference to pale face in this article is equally dismissive and has no place. StarHOG ( talk) 17:21, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
The section notes historical usage of the term "heathen" by European Christians to refer to the native peoples, saying that this was based on the natives "perceived lack of religious belief." That's not accurate, is it? Heathen, historically, hasn't been used to mean "someone with no religious beliefs," but rather a non-Christian. As far as I'm aware, the European settlers were aware of and discussed native religious beliefs. I've never heard anything to suggest that they thought that the indigenous people were atheist. OrthodoxLinguist ( talk) 02:56, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Mann
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).