This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nasreddin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm moving the page to Nasrudin. The article body uses that name, and there doesn't seem to be any justification for using the Nasreddin variant since the claim from 2004 about Nasreddin being "more popular in Google" is now demonstrably untrue. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised no one reverted this earlier. I've undone this change, albeit a little late. It was done with no discussion, unless the discussion was deleted. I checked google again and Nesreddin had about 200 000 more results. Finally, none of the names listed on the page had Nesrudin listedwith Nasreddin and Nasrettin being the most common. Only Bosnia was listed as using the vowel u, although I didn't look at the Cyrlic scrips. Additionally most other wikipedia language articles had a form of Nasreddin, so consistency here would be preferable. Grant bud ( talk) 01:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Is it me, or does the whole thing seem to be a largely unreferenced and unencyclopedic amalgamation of snippets? I thought I'd check first but if there's no objections I'm thinking of just removing that whole section. Peter Deer ( talk) 11:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
This article makes the ridiculous attempt to establish some kind of "real life" for a totally legendary person. Any claim to his alleged birthplace is just POV, as are any references to his alleged ethnic background, country of birth, etc. Just check the sources given in those paragraphs: they are totally unreliable, not a single scholastic work. Therefore, I have tagged the article. Please do not remove the tags without supporting these claims with REAL scholarly sources and not unreliable websites. Tajik ( talk) 20:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Nasruddin does indeed belong to the realm of legend. EVERYTHING about him is POV; indeed, Nasruddin stories are nothing but games of POV hide & seek. What is important is that the stories circulate and exert cultural power over millions.
The same can be said for Jesus Christ, for that matter, for there are indeed those who dispute his actual existence.
The only solution is to give equal weight to all POVs and stop the handwringing over trying to find any Supreme Truth version.
He must be rolling over laughing in his grave over this thingie about "The Neutrality of This Article is Disputed."
Save the neutrality and objectivity for articles on bookkeeping and triethanolamine.
-- Arthur Borges ( talk) 07:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
There is no clear line between truth and legend. For example, the best known story about George Washington is that he chopped down a cherry tree, a story which has been told about several men, but that does not mean George Washington never existed.
It is unlikely that any single man did all the things attibuted to Nasrudin, but that does not prove that he didn't exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.62.242.53 ( talk) 23:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree that the name should by default be in Turkish because he's a Turk. Additionally the arabic script, which lacks short vowels, was used at the time so this makes transliteration difficult. Besides, wasn't Turkey Persia at the time of Nasrettin Hoca? Since I thought the mongols are what made the Turks Turks? Anyway I changed it to Nasreddin for the reasons stated above. Not that I don't prefer Nasrettin myself, easier to pronounce, but it seems to be the most common one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant bud ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Nasreddin was from Turkish ethnicity but that is impossible to write that here. In fact it is impossible in Wikipedia to write to any famous Turkish person that he was of Turkish ancestry. Wikipedia has changed into a huge anti-Turkish racist encyclopedia with mostly Greeks,Persians,Armenians and many others, editing articles related to Turkish culture and history. Every related article to Turkish subjects is filled with edits made by these hatefull person. Who have no real knowledge about Turkish culture but only want to make negative edits.
Is the question: Why was he Turkish ? The question should be why should he not be Turkish?
Nasreddin lived in Anatolia which was populated by Turkish speaking people at that time, his stories are in Turkish, he is famous in Turkey, he is a muslim, he is famous in Turkish culture, his grave is in Anatolia.
He can also be famous in many other cultures this does not mean he was from those cultures, it is obvious that there was cultural exchange. With no source at all, claiming every famous Turk, to be of a different ethnicity is the standard procedure in Wikipedia. The power of racism and prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonTiger23 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Once again Nasreddin is a male Turkish name, it was a common male name in Turkish Anatolia in the past, it lost its place because its not an modern Turkish name anymore, Nasreddin is being potrayed as a Turk in almost every tale. Redman19 ( talk) 18:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Can we please get some consensus on the spelling that we're going to be using for his name? It's silly to have the article title and body use different variants. Given that my last attempt to fix this had the title reverted, this time I'll change the body. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 12:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Support for "Nasrudin". Takabeg ( talk) 03:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
According to İlhan Başgöz, his nationality is disputed [1] And we must see Category:Turkish people. It is said that "This category page lists notable citizens of the Republic of Turkey."
I agree that Nasreddin was not a "historic person". There appears to be a stable consensus in reliable sources that if Nasreddin stories were originally inspired by an actual person, nothing definite is known about him. The subject of this article is Folklore, not Biography. ~ Ningauble ( talk) 18:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
In the phrase "... it is claimed that within the tale there is usually also something to be learned" the word "claim" seems to imply that there is some debate over whether most Nesreddin tales have a pedagogic nature, imparting some form of knowledge to the reader. But there is no debate on this topic. WjtWeston ( talk) 01:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Khodja Nasritdin.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 09:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC) |
An image used in this article,
File:Hodja (4).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 00:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC) |
I have read several books filled with Nasruddin jokes, and one book filled with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk when they were both in Samarkand. The style of the jokes seems to be consistent in both the jokes books and the book with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk, which makes it likely that there was a real person called Nasruddin, Mulla Nasruddin, Nasreddin, and he was in close contact with Timur Lenk in Samarkand. This connection between these two men seems to have been overlooked in both the wp articles about Nasreddin and Timur. Google for this expression timur lenk nasruddin and you will find 154,000 results in many languages. Roger491127 ( talk) 13:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
""In gatherings, family meetings, and parties they tell each other stories about him that are called "latifa" of "afandi". i There are at least two collections of stories related to Nasriddin Afandi.""
It seems to me that there is some error here. Does it mean: "... called 'latifa' or 'afandi' ..."; or "... called 'latifa or afandi' ..."; or what?
Then here is the little orphan 'i' - is that a relic of some previous amendment perhaps? Dawright12 ( talk) 10:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
He's not always the antagonist of Sly Peter, sometimes they cooperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.162.145 ( talk) 10:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I had been under the impression that the opinion of Professor Mikail Bayram about the real-life identity and biography of the legendary Nasreddin is a minority view; [1] and that most scholars consider the original inspiration for the folk character to be unknown or at best very uncertain.
Even if those theories have received somewhat more recognition than I am aware of (i.e. none), it seems to me that this article is, or ought to be, primarily about the folklore of the iconic character, rather than speculations about biography and politics. Therefore, the amount of coverage of the professor's theories in the article, and especially in the lead section, strikes me as undue emphasis on a conjectural historical footnote. ~ Ningauble ( talk) 00:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
The Arabic text does not read Nasruddin Hoja. It says Nasruddin Jahaa. Maybe somebody should fix it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.249.25.119 ( talk) 22:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Please add the following. Nasreddin Hodja is the hero in the Swedish nobudgetfilm "Mullan i Grönköping". Here is a link to the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4oGJ0I4TY In this movie he lives as a refugee in Sweden when somebody wants to murder him. He heroically outwits the murderer, in a way which is in line with his character.
The movie was filmed in 2014, but "2015" is written in the movie, and it was first broadcast in 2016. Broadcast by multiple public access television stations in Sweden.
No, there is no web page related to the movie or to anyone of those involved. But Swedish newspapers wrote about it, which is uploaded. 213.113.112.240 ( talk) 18:02, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Nasreddin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
https://www.academia.edu/2917779/Wisdom_Lessons_From_Turkish_Literature_to_Managers_and_Leaders_Turk_Edebiyatindan_Yoneticilere_ve_Liderlere_Bilgelik_Dersleri/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:10, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Why this article is using definite place of birth/place of death for a semi-legendery figure which many different cultures attribute as their own. I have visited Bukhara in Uzbekistan and they also have a memorial to him there, along with various place in Iran.
It should be stated that his actual existence is disputed along with his supposed birth place; otherwise, Wikipedia is just pandering to Turkish nationalist which can be a dangerous thing. 188.113.245.251 ( talk) 07:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
It would be helpful to identify which names are used in which countries.
Also, it would be helpful to explain what his titles mean . . .
As well as the meanings of each story.
Paul R F
Is there a list of contents for each collection of stories. Some stories may be duplicated. 51.6.124.66 ( talk) 19:03, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nasreddin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm moving the page to Nasrudin. The article body uses that name, and there doesn't seem to be any justification for using the Nasreddin variant since the claim from 2004 about Nasreddin being "more popular in Google" is now demonstrably untrue. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised no one reverted this earlier. I've undone this change, albeit a little late. It was done with no discussion, unless the discussion was deleted. I checked google again and Nesreddin had about 200 000 more results. Finally, none of the names listed on the page had Nesrudin listedwith Nasreddin and Nasrettin being the most common. Only Bosnia was listed as using the vowel u, although I didn't look at the Cyrlic scrips. Additionally most other wikipedia language articles had a form of Nasreddin, so consistency here would be preferable. Grant bud ( talk) 01:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Is it me, or does the whole thing seem to be a largely unreferenced and unencyclopedic amalgamation of snippets? I thought I'd check first but if there's no objections I'm thinking of just removing that whole section. Peter Deer ( talk) 11:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
This article makes the ridiculous attempt to establish some kind of "real life" for a totally legendary person. Any claim to his alleged birthplace is just POV, as are any references to his alleged ethnic background, country of birth, etc. Just check the sources given in those paragraphs: they are totally unreliable, not a single scholastic work. Therefore, I have tagged the article. Please do not remove the tags without supporting these claims with REAL scholarly sources and not unreliable websites. Tajik ( talk) 20:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Nasruddin does indeed belong to the realm of legend. EVERYTHING about him is POV; indeed, Nasruddin stories are nothing but games of POV hide & seek. What is important is that the stories circulate and exert cultural power over millions.
The same can be said for Jesus Christ, for that matter, for there are indeed those who dispute his actual existence.
The only solution is to give equal weight to all POVs and stop the handwringing over trying to find any Supreme Truth version.
He must be rolling over laughing in his grave over this thingie about "The Neutrality of This Article is Disputed."
Save the neutrality and objectivity for articles on bookkeeping and triethanolamine.
-- Arthur Borges ( talk) 07:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
There is no clear line between truth and legend. For example, the best known story about George Washington is that he chopped down a cherry tree, a story which has been told about several men, but that does not mean George Washington never existed.
It is unlikely that any single man did all the things attibuted to Nasrudin, but that does not prove that he didn't exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.62.242.53 ( talk) 23:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree that the name should by default be in Turkish because he's a Turk. Additionally the arabic script, which lacks short vowels, was used at the time so this makes transliteration difficult. Besides, wasn't Turkey Persia at the time of Nasrettin Hoca? Since I thought the mongols are what made the Turks Turks? Anyway I changed it to Nasreddin for the reasons stated above. Not that I don't prefer Nasrettin myself, easier to pronounce, but it seems to be the most common one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant bud ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Nasreddin was from Turkish ethnicity but that is impossible to write that here. In fact it is impossible in Wikipedia to write to any famous Turkish person that he was of Turkish ancestry. Wikipedia has changed into a huge anti-Turkish racist encyclopedia with mostly Greeks,Persians,Armenians and many others, editing articles related to Turkish culture and history. Every related article to Turkish subjects is filled with edits made by these hatefull person. Who have no real knowledge about Turkish culture but only want to make negative edits.
Is the question: Why was he Turkish ? The question should be why should he not be Turkish?
Nasreddin lived in Anatolia which was populated by Turkish speaking people at that time, his stories are in Turkish, he is famous in Turkey, he is a muslim, he is famous in Turkish culture, his grave is in Anatolia.
He can also be famous in many other cultures this does not mean he was from those cultures, it is obvious that there was cultural exchange. With no source at all, claiming every famous Turk, to be of a different ethnicity is the standard procedure in Wikipedia. The power of racism and prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonTiger23 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Once again Nasreddin is a male Turkish name, it was a common male name in Turkish Anatolia in the past, it lost its place because its not an modern Turkish name anymore, Nasreddin is being potrayed as a Turk in almost every tale. Redman19 ( talk) 18:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Can we please get some consensus on the spelling that we're going to be using for his name? It's silly to have the article title and body use different variants. Given that my last attempt to fix this had the title reverted, this time I'll change the body. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 12:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Support for "Nasrudin". Takabeg ( talk) 03:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
According to İlhan Başgöz, his nationality is disputed [1] And we must see Category:Turkish people. It is said that "This category page lists notable citizens of the Republic of Turkey."
I agree that Nasreddin was not a "historic person". There appears to be a stable consensus in reliable sources that if Nasreddin stories were originally inspired by an actual person, nothing definite is known about him. The subject of this article is Folklore, not Biography. ~ Ningauble ( talk) 18:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
In the phrase "... it is claimed that within the tale there is usually also something to be learned" the word "claim" seems to imply that there is some debate over whether most Nesreddin tales have a pedagogic nature, imparting some form of knowledge to the reader. But there is no debate on this topic. WjtWeston ( talk) 01:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Khodja Nasritdin.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 09:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC) |
An image used in this article,
File:Hodja (4).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 00:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC) |
I have read several books filled with Nasruddin jokes, and one book filled with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk when they were both in Samarkand. The style of the jokes seems to be consistent in both the jokes books and the book with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk, which makes it likely that there was a real person called Nasruddin, Mulla Nasruddin, Nasreddin, and he was in close contact with Timur Lenk in Samarkand. This connection between these two men seems to have been overlooked in both the wp articles about Nasreddin and Timur. Google for this expression timur lenk nasruddin and you will find 154,000 results in many languages. Roger491127 ( talk) 13:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
""In gatherings, family meetings, and parties they tell each other stories about him that are called "latifa" of "afandi". i There are at least two collections of stories related to Nasriddin Afandi.""
It seems to me that there is some error here. Does it mean: "... called 'latifa' or 'afandi' ..."; or "... called 'latifa or afandi' ..."; or what?
Then here is the little orphan 'i' - is that a relic of some previous amendment perhaps? Dawright12 ( talk) 10:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
He's not always the antagonist of Sly Peter, sometimes they cooperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.162.145 ( talk) 10:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I had been under the impression that the opinion of Professor Mikail Bayram about the real-life identity and biography of the legendary Nasreddin is a minority view; [1] and that most scholars consider the original inspiration for the folk character to be unknown or at best very uncertain.
Even if those theories have received somewhat more recognition than I am aware of (i.e. none), it seems to me that this article is, or ought to be, primarily about the folklore of the iconic character, rather than speculations about biography and politics. Therefore, the amount of coverage of the professor's theories in the article, and especially in the lead section, strikes me as undue emphasis on a conjectural historical footnote. ~ Ningauble ( talk) 00:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
The Arabic text does not read Nasruddin Hoja. It says Nasruddin Jahaa. Maybe somebody should fix it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.249.25.119 ( talk) 22:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Please add the following. Nasreddin Hodja is the hero in the Swedish nobudgetfilm "Mullan i Grönköping". Here is a link to the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4oGJ0I4TY In this movie he lives as a refugee in Sweden when somebody wants to murder him. He heroically outwits the murderer, in a way which is in line with his character.
The movie was filmed in 2014, but "2015" is written in the movie, and it was first broadcast in 2016. Broadcast by multiple public access television stations in Sweden.
No, there is no web page related to the movie or to anyone of those involved. But Swedish newspapers wrote about it, which is uploaded. 213.113.112.240 ( talk) 18:02, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Nasreddin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
https://www.academia.edu/2917779/Wisdom_Lessons_From_Turkish_Literature_to_Managers_and_Leaders_Turk_Edebiyatindan_Yoneticilere_ve_Liderlere_Bilgelik_Dersleri/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:10, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Why this article is using definite place of birth/place of death for a semi-legendery figure which many different cultures attribute as their own. I have visited Bukhara in Uzbekistan and they also have a memorial to him there, along with various place in Iran.
It should be stated that his actual existence is disputed along with his supposed birth place; otherwise, Wikipedia is just pandering to Turkish nationalist which can be a dangerous thing. 188.113.245.251 ( talk) 07:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
It would be helpful to identify which names are used in which countries.
Also, it would be helpful to explain what his titles mean . . .
As well as the meanings of each story.
Paul R F
Is there a list of contents for each collection of stories. Some stories may be duplicated. 51.6.124.66 ( talk) 19:03, 3 June 2022 (UTC)