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This page was a redirect to hearing impairment when I started on it. It needed to discuss Deaf culture.
Now we really need a Deaf person or a translator to look over this page and add to it!
There is a lot about the history of deaf people that I leaft out. Also, it needs discussion of organizations like the NAD and NTD. A reference to Gallaudet University, since that is so important to Deaf history in the U.S., is warranted as well. Also lacking is discussion of Deaf history outside the U.S. --hb
Why is "deaf" capitalized in the article? -- Tarquin 00:21, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)~
The Deaf community and Deaf Culture really deserve their own article seperate from the article here. I have taken the cultural information and moved it to its own page and plan to expand on it over time. This way this article can just mention the big 'D' deaf and supply a link, then go on with elucidation of what this article should be about which is the state of being deaf seperate from the culture, hearing or Deaf, which a person may belong. The two topics are very large and deserve seperate treatment. Hopefully both articles will continue to be refined - Qaz
Implanting very young children -- at ages as young as 6 months old, is no long so controversial from the perspective of efficacy. There of course remain ethical and Deaf cultural issues, but by today (Aug 2004) many studies have proven the efficacy of the treatment. Very early implantation combined with speech and language therapy has a very high rate of successfully enabling children to obtain spoken language. I suggest editing the paragraph on Medical Treatments to reflect this data.
Please note that I am somewhat biased -- my 5 year old son uses a cochlear implant, implanted at age 12 months. By age 3.5 years he was at a spoken language level appropriate for his age. At age 5 (current), his speech and language is indistinguishable from his peers. This outcome is not exceptional.
It's child abuse. In 1995 the Mayo Clinic's follow-up research on the cochlear implant demonstrated that 70 percent of implanted children were no longer using the implant by the early teen. Seventy Percent, Sir! Why? Because with these 70 percent, the implant made no significant improvement in the deaf's ability to understand or articulate language. Not controversial? You must be working for the Cochler Corporation. It's child abuse. These children grow up still not hearing and understanding yet they also have no critical-age mastery of a language, including sign language. If you've ever worked with developmentally disturbed deaf children with these "transistor radios" surgically implanted in their skull and witnessed how language deprevation has stunted their intellectual growth, you'd not be making such a broad brush endorsement of this Frankensteinian "technology of normalization."
I'm obviously representing a Point Of View -- as are you -- but let's please make sure our facts are correct. Please cite the research where the 70% number comes from. How old were the children when implanted? Current data shows very high success rates over the long term for children implanted before the age of 5. Here's a pointer to one of my data source (2003 -- much more recent) -- http://www.bapo.org.uk/8th_ESPO/data/html/2744.htm -- and I would encourage everyone to research this issue and come to their own conclusions. This is obviously a controversial issue. The point here on Wikipedia is to try to represent a neutral point of view. It's OK to point out that there is controversy in this area, but let's try to keep the main article from espousing one belief or another, but rather I think it should raise the controversy itself and inform the reader. For you it's child abuse, for me, it's an amazing thing -- my child can speak as well as, and hear almost as well his hearing friends at school. He does not struggle with speech reading or strain to be understood. Given that he is going blind, I don't think it's child abuse at all. However, I understand why you do. How can this dispute be fairly characterized in the main article page? I have very slightly edited the main section (leaving your additions) to point out the NPOV question. And to answer your question, I don't work for Cochlear Corp -- I'm the father of a customer, not an employee or shareholder.
"This is obviously a controversial issue"
Thank you. That's a sea change in your prior attitude from "... is no longer controversial" stated in bold headline. My data came from "Audiology," the professional, peer reviewed publication of American audiologists. It was about 1995. I haven't been able to find an online link to the article, but I wrote an editorial on the issues at the time, when I was the editor for a deaf social services organization.
Let's not talk about neutral points of view when you cite "studies have proven the efficacy of the treatment." The heading on this issue is "Views of Treatment," is it not? And the previous version of that heading was,
"Indeed, there is controversy in the Deaf community as to whether cochlear implants are a Good Thing at all, given the negative impact which the community would suffer from its depletion."
That's not a view of the deaf community! It's an invention of the Three Billion dollar a year human-services machine!
Now *where* did the data for THAT comment come from? It's not linked, referenced or cited at all! If we are going to post conjecture into this topic, what better witness to the Deaf (yes, that's what is written, capital "D") cultural point of view is there than from someone who is "of" that culture? It is the height of insult to deaf people to hang a claim of "depletion concerns" on a class of people who have get their head, ears and skulls worked over by doctors touting the next BIG THING. The entire idea that deafness is a handicap is so repugnant to deaf people we shudder to think it. We work every day of our lives, pay taxes, buy homes, raise children, contribute to our community and that's a disability? We don't even park in the handicap parking spots at the grocery store and we be shocked out of our minds if we knew a deaf person who did, yet many states STILL endow the deaf with that privilege. I say, if you don't want controversy, don't hang the "label" of "disabled" on the deaf. You'll always be wrong in doing so and you'll just invite people like me to rebut the insult.
Okay, look, if we break down the word "disability" we get "dis-", meaning, in this case, "lack of", and "ability". It simply means a lack of an ability. In the case of deafness, it is a lack of ability to hear, an ability present in the large majority of humanity. I fail to see why this is an insult or controversial. Sharazel ( talk) 04:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
In the absense of a means of contacting the contributor, Dcreemer, I'll ask here.
There is a great deal that can be done to achieve the neutrality of the article's content; bland though it will become. I'm willing to discuss it but there seems to be no one willing to so much as comment or interact on this issue with the exception of this one comment by Dcreemer. I'd go ahead and make such an attempt but I'd rather not do so without input on what specific language is at the center of the debate. It would be wasteful to attempt writing a neutral POV then have someone come along and critize the work for non-neutrality as in the present case. Let's take case of it beforehand.
Therefore, I'm willing to offer the use of my personal web site, a site that is password-protected and in which any conversation can be hidden from the view of any other site users without their knowing it even exists. This would insure the private and uninterrupted flow of discussion. But this is prefaced on the willingness of other people to participate. It will require me to set up a private account for other participants and add them to a special group. I want to be fair about this, but one person doing the writing without feedback is an invitation for failure.
Please contact me via my Wiki page using the email feature if you'd like to join in on creating a document that we all can live with. I suppose at time limit is in order. I have a great deal to say regarding a number of pages that deal with the deaf. I'm willing to wait five days for responses. If I do not hear from anyone within that time frame I'll assume my present work on the page is satisfactory and I will remove the NPOV disclaimer. The time limit begin today, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2004 and will end at midnight, Dec. 24.
Pengo, thank you for your feedback. Having written on deaf issues for 20 years I'm used to having oralist/audist and proponents of the technologies of normalization talk to me like I'm a child or paternalize me. It's an old story. Yours is nothing new so I'm not surprised or offended. While I appreciate your general tone and your willingness to be involved, I worked all night on my real job (writing films) and I'm just too tired to address your points now. I will say that I've completely rewritten the introductory information for this article and will be posting it on the Talk Page for discussion and criticism with my aim being to work toward Featured Article status. No one has expressed that aim as a goal and I'm optimistic that a collaberative and respectful spirt are possible and will aid us in achieving such a aim. I ask you to hold you criticism until I've actually posted my proposed revision. I'm working very hard to satisfy the style and intent of Wiki philosophy, something I've been striving to do since well before your arrival. I'll get back to your points once I've had a chance to rest. Ray Foster 03:14, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not getting any feedback from the person who posted the NPOV notice so I placed a Request for Comment when I found out there is a system in place to assist to resolve problems. At dispute presently, or as pertains to the NPOV, a contributor cited a study that supposedly closes the debate as to whether the cochlear implant is controversial. He even states this view in a comment in this Talk page. I am not unsympathetic to his views, especially since I learned he has a deaf son. But his is not the only concern or viewpoint. Beyond that, before I edited the original section, someone arbitrarily stated that the concern deaf people had about the cochlear implant was mainly that it would reduce the numbers of deaf people. No data or research was sited and I strongly disputed the remark because I knew, after nearly 20 years of research on deaf culture, that assertion to be false.
At that time, the contributer posted the NPOV notice, then, simply.......vanished. Posting an NPOV notice implies that one is prepared to engage in any dialogue that would hasten an agreement and get it removed to that progress on the page can continue. But that hasn't been the case. I've not hear a peep and I'd like to re-write this entire page and give it a truly neutral POV. In its present state, I've had to tactfully rebute out-and-out falsehoods. People have been posting negative views of the deaf, or things that suggest the deaf have an irrational view of the world, then not explaining why the deaf see certain things in certain way. One glaring example was a comment on how deaf people exclude certain others from their community.
So I ask others to guide me. I new to Wiki, but I'm not new to any issue concerning deafness. I've been deaf most of my adult life, have written on deaf issues as an editor and reporter and have been a student of deaf history and deaf culture for nearly three decades. I'm dedicated to providing quality and impartial content on all deaf issues and I just seems to me that this current conflict seeks to exclude the input of the deaf community, the very people it concerns, because it's something other contributors never bothered to learn about.
I also want to add, that the person who posted the NPOV comment may be as ignornant about the process of resolution as I am. Instead of posting a request for comment, he went straight to posting the NPOV after only one exchange. Clearly, that isn't the way the resolution process works and it abuses the established system: if you can post an NPOV then just disappear, everyone else is left to deal with the disagreement while the person who posted the NPOV has no intention of returning to work out a solution. Such an act ought to be put to the test by requiring the person who posted the NPOV notice to defend his position to those who are willing to resolve the problem (me, for example.) Posting an NPOV implies that other don't have the right to remove it. I'm honoring that, but how long do I wait for the person to return to the discussion and get the resolution under way?
Ray Foster 19:45, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Some contributors have not seen the request to refrain from editing this article while it is in mediation. I have reverted to a previous version because ALL information on this page is being mediated and contributors have posted information since a "stop editing" request was posted, including external links and additions to any section. I ask your patience and understanding while we await the appointment of a mediator. Thanks to all. Ray Foster 00:26, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I asked four medical doctors for their views as to the accuracy and neutrality of this proposal. Two of them were pediatricians (Peds) and two were general practitioners (GP. None of them have any association with deaf culture but all of them have had deaf patients. One of them was my personal physician (GP), another is a physician in San Francisco and owns the home next to me (Peds) and visit my city a couple of times a month. Another is a recent acquaintance who lives down the street from me (GP) and the other is an old friend who lives 500 miles away (Peds). I didn't get a single reaction of this proposal being inaccurate or none-neutral. What I did hear was that they thought it was fair, impartial and interesting. Yet, ultimately, it's not for them to decide. It is for active contributors to Wiki to criticize and improve. I think this proposal will solve most of the tension this subject generates. It will also render some current information moot, unusuable, theoretically unnecessary or patent nonsense. I ask that you read it and let me know what I can do to improve it. My analysis of the present article has led me to believe that it begins from an incorrect premise then wanders off into directions that render it difficult, if not impossible, to make a unified and coherent statement. Please let me know if you see any potential in this proposal toward correcting that problem. Ray Foster 21:47, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First off, great piece of work. I recently commented on your soapbox style of writing, and this piece certainly does not suffer the same problems. It does not have the same POV issues, or at least they're too subtle to warrant debate. The content is good. I have no problem with it being immediately included in the main article as is.
Having said that, I'd still like to see some editing (all of which could be done after the material is included in the main article). • I found the article pretty confusing to read when it jumps between models of deafness and models of disability. Can the models of deafness be said types of models of disability? and then just have links to, for example. Medical model of disability and Social model of disability rather than re-including the material.
Actually, I'm confused as to how the models of deafness fit in with the models of disability. • I take it the "Infirmity Model of Disability" means the same as the "Medical Model"? (judging from Medical model of disability). Personally, I'd prefer the term medical to infirmity.
• Does "The Cultural Deaf view of the Infirmity Model and Disability Models" really need to be its own (rather long) heading? I'm guessing you may have structured it this way to avoid POV issues, but I don't think it's necessary. This material could equally well be included at the end of the section titled "The Cultural Model of Deafness".
• Is there a Social Model of Deafness (seperate from the medical and cultural models?)
The article seems to imply it. It also says there are three models but then only has two main headings. Can the whole thing be changed to have simply three main headings: Models of Deafness (introduction text)
1. Medical model 2. Social model 3. Cultural model
(the cultural model section would probably need to be broken up into subsections too)
• Late deafened or "post-linguistically deaf" people don't seem to be addressed. I'm guessing many would be comfortable with the social or even medical models.
• Deaf schooling and education is a very large topic and it would be great to for it to be expanded, perhaps into its own article. But that's for another day.
• and lastly, an introduction would be nice. e.g. (this is really rough): There are three models of deafness: the medical, social and cultural models, which affect how deaf persons are treated and their identity. The medical model sees deafness as an undesirable condition to be treated. The social model sees the design of the deaf person's environment as the major disabling factor, while in the cultural model, the Deaf belong to a culture in which they are not infirm or disabled. The three models are expanded below.
Sorry if these comments are a bit all over the place, but I've only come to grips with the material and structure as I've been commenting. Again, I'm in favour of including the material, and it would certainly move the article towards Featured Article status.
--Pengo 01:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, having just attempted to link to hearing loss from audiometry. I found Ray's proposal to be fascinating, but the structure did seem confusing; I agree with Pengo that they should first be quickly defined, and it would be nice if subsequent references were consistent in terminology (even switching between infirmity model and disability model gets a bit confusing when mixed in with cultural model, social model, medical model or what-have-you). I also found parts of it to be needlessly wordy; as an example, it seemed unnecessary to bring up gay culture only to then point out that it was a completely different animal -- especially when membership in Deaf culture had already been clearly explained.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this feedback helps, but after completely giving up on the Deaf article partway through, I do think that this proposal represents a big move in the right direction. -- Oarih 14:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I must admit that I tossed and turned last night waiting to see if I had just gotten myself into deeper trouble or had achieved a measure of exoneration. I'm very thankful to have found common ground on which to move forward and I thank you both for your thoughtful and highly useful criticism. I'll try to give equally thoughtful responses to your concerns. First, I want to address the points that both of you (Pengo and Oarih [how do you pronounce "Oarih"] :-) have in common. Then I will address the individual points each of you had that were not in common.
The issue of terminology was a perplexing one to me, too. Especially the fine distinctions that were made between:
These terms came from two sources. The first was the chapter I cited from H. Lane, The Infirmity and Cultural Model of Deaf People. The second was QUITE extensive. It was for the voluminous professional journal "Disability, Handicap and Society". I've subscribed to this journal for over a decade. It is now called "Disability and Society" but the references were from the period when it was know by the former name. The journal is a British publication and H. Lane (Harlan Lane) is an American, a professor of psycholinguistics at Northeastern Univ. in Boston. I've corresponded with him for the past year on a range of deaf issues more associated with deaf history than deaf culture. Lane is influenced by European views of disability because it was in Europe that the concept of social disability arose so powerfully and then quickly spread to the western hemisphere. Both Lane's research and that of the hundreds researchers who contribute to Disability and Society is quite specific about this distinction between models of Infirmity and disability and I can't say definitively that Lane embraced these European terms (he may have devised them himself) but the literature of this journal abounds with these distinctions and these precise terms. I tried to find instances in which "medical model" was used in lieu of "infirmity" and I searched for instances in which "infirmity" was not distinguished from "disability". I couldn't find any instances that did that in either case. It strikes me as so subtle that it is almost indistinguishable. Yet, I didn't want to make an arbitrary assumption and simply change terms that, apparently, are the very framework in which these matters are researched, critiqued, and debated.
I acknowledge that the language of research and the language of current lay usage is often at odds. I also acknowledge that a certain precision of usage is employed in a cross-cultural research environment to avoid cultural taint. I didn't want to be the "ugly American" and just apply my own label to the terms and, in doing so, try and turn the article into an American point of view. There were instances in my writing in which I felt so weak in knowing what subtle differences there were in deaf culture outside of the United States that I decided in favor of caution and used example from American deaf culture that I was well-read in, rather than generalize a parallel to another country and end up getting my ears boxed over for generalizing when it didn't apply. Also, in my own writing on deaf issues, I've had my hands slapped no small amount of times for extending the term "medical model" into "medicalization of the deaf". It's HIGHLY sensitive and contentious term to people outside the realm of deaf culture to confront unschooled people with that rendering of the term "medical." So I put 2 and 2 together on this problem and thought that perhaps the reason I didn't see it in the profession journal is for the very reason that is rubs people the wrong way. It's something researchers are aware of and avoid. Possible? I don't know for sure. I was just striving to keep the language unremarkable and avoid the charge of not having a neutral POV.
There is another point to consider. That point being the view from dictionary definition. That may be a key to understanding why "infirm" is preferred in the literature. Here are the definitions for "medical" and "infirmity"
Medical:
Infirm (Infirmity):
It very well may be that "infirmity" is preferred to "medical" because medical has an all-incompassing conceptual basic that includes "wellness," "health," "preventative medicine". It is possible to grasp the distinction between one kind of medical model and another, but the concept of "infirmity" narrows the scope to a specialized focus that is more toward with "pathology" and away from "wellness" and preventative medicine. Could this be why social scientists defer to using "infirmity" rather than "medical" to conceptualize the model? I think it's arguable in favor of "infirmity" but I will NOT be the advocate for either term since I don't know the actual basis for using them.
Whatever the case, it is clear that we must provide a means of easily distinguishing between an "infirmity/medical model of deafness" and an "infirmity/medical model of disability". I despair of melding the two together since I've seen such well-qualified usage of the terms, but only in isolation of one-another. Since these two distinction were well-made in the literature, I had to search the deaf cultural resources for examples in which deaf people themselves distinguish between "infirmity" and "disability". It was easy to do from the standpoint of my own experience as a member of deaf culture. These are distinctions we make routinely. But I have no desire to "go there" for my information. I believed that since the deaf model makes precise distinctions about the rejection of both an "infirm" model of both deafness and disability, and then also reject the "social model of disability" that this cultural perspective bore a responsibility to explain itself. In doing so, I encountered the problem of how to distinguish deafness as both a culture in it's own right AND how it meets the precise definition of a language minority. That is why I used the comparisons with women, gays, African-Americans to provide a view of groups "disadvantaged" by majority culture and then used Hispanic and Native Americans to show how deaf culture fits in the category of language minority. I elaborated on the comparison between gay and deaf community for a couple of reason: 1) It was such an interesting point. Since I am both gay and deaf myself, I was struck with amazement about this point because it is so unique. 2) It makes a very strong example of demonstrating how groups are classified as a "culture" in terms of enduring a disadvantage yet persisting and thriving within a majority setting. I though using this example would be a good one to help us toward Featured Article status since this is information that is not merely accurate and highly illustrative of the concept it reveals, but that is an unusual fact that is almost unknown in serious sociological literature about both gay and deaf culture. It's kind of like a "scoop" in the newspaper business in which a certain source make widely known something that may have languished in the depths of academia but is now a hot topic.
I think I made progress and I'm mostly satisfied with the deaf cultural explanation of why "social disability" is inappropriate. It needs improvement. but I'm not happy with the deaf cultural examples that explain why "infirmity model" doesn't fit. I'm not saying I think it's lame or invalid. I personally agree with the deaf cultural view. I just don't think my example was strongly presented and that it needs work.
After I post these comments, I will take a breather and then come and add the proposed revision to the article itself. Once I do that, I'm certain there are a couple of sections that will be rendered redundant or useless. I will remove them but I just want to say beforehand that in no way am concerned if anyone wants to put back things I remove. I will make adjustments based only on my understanding of the overall goal. I'm certain I can't think of all possible reason to retain some material and discard other things. So please don't misconstrue my actions as an agenda. I want an overall coherence and consistency and will edit with intention of achieving that goal.
Ray Foster 04:36, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Pengo. I know I haven't responded to all your point. I've worn my fingers to the bone today and just need to rest a bit. I'll get to them, I promise. Ray Foster 04:39, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To respond quickly to the infirmity model vs medical model: The existing article " Medical model of disability" nearly exactly resembled (bullet points and wording) of your description of the infirmity model. So they appear to be the same thing. Doing a quick google search gives the following number of pages with each term:
"___ model"
"___ model of disability"
"___ model of deafness":
If the term "infirmity model of disability" was once popular in journals, it certainly isn't popular on the internet today.
Note: only English pages searched. (my default)
-- Pengo 09:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As, from a medical view point, deafness is a disability, the medical model of deafness is going to be a type of medical model of disability. I don't think you need a journal article to point that out. The same applies to social models. For now I've verbatim pasted your "social of disability" description into a "of deafness" heading. The content should (at a later stage) really be merged into " Social model of disability" or adapted to discuss deafness in particular.
-- Pengo 09:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I moved the following sections from Deafness to Hearing Impairment: I've recently worked on the H.I. article because I knew it dealt with the entire range of the various types and ranges of hearing loss. It is precisely the all-encompassing term that best depicts the infirmity view. So in addition to what I've done, I'll be spending a great deal of time with that page in an attempt to move it toward Featured Article status. It has tremendous potential and at least one person who has a special interest in the subject. Here are the sections I moved:
The following I just plain eliminated from the Deafness article because they are better addressed in Deaf Culture or Deaf History and are made somewhat unfocused by our revision. There is no Deaf History article yet. It's something I'm working on now. Given the great modification of the premise on the Deafness article, I thought it was simply overkill to go on and on about deaf culture. By doing that, one loses the intent of the deafness article's intention to disambiguate a sensitive subject. To just add more and more on deaf culture gives the appearance of tremendous imbalance of purpose. The truth is, deaf culture and history have enormous caches of literature, endless topics and gigantic philosophical arguments. With this page it would soon become a major concern as to where to stop illustrating the arguments over infirmity and disability the deaf cultural model has (substantial) and just seek a balance in perspective in all the competing arguments we presently have.
I'll say once again that I am preparing major additions to the Deaf Culture article and an entirely new article on Deaf History. All the issues addressed in the sections I removed will be brought back to life in my work on the existing Deaf Culture article and the new Deaf History article.
Again, I will say that I'm not opposed to other replacing the information I've moved if will work with the overall direction we've established with the new revision.
Ray Foster 07:25, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article no long really addresses deafness, but only models of deafness. It's not exactly what you'd expect what you follow a link from Hearing, Henry Baker, Halle Berry, Human variability, Hearing dog, or History of Minnesota. The merging of the old content with Hearing impairment actually makes more sense than I thought it would. And now I think it might make sense to rename Deafness to Models of deafness, and reference it from Hearing impairment. What further plans are there for this page to warrant keeping the title, and not simply redirecting Deafness to Hearing impairment?
-- Pengo 09:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray Foster 13:56, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray,
Sorry to move this page without further discussion. But it simply doesn't make sense under its present title ("Deafness"). You've really taken my comments the wrong way. My main concern (as indiciated by the heading) was the future of the article, as it only addresses models of deafness and no other aspect.
As a being disabiguation page, in the wiki sense of the term, models of deafness is nothing like one. (e.g. see dot or starfire)
As for the importance of linking being purposeful, I agree, and that's why I've redirected "Deaf" (and "Deafness") to a "Deaf individual" disabiguation page, which serves as an actual disambiguation page. With things left as they were, when someone clicked on " deaf" from Halle Berry they're treated to a discussion on how deaf persons are treated in society and Deaf identity. With the new page, when someone clicks on " deaf" from Halle Berry, they're encouraged to fix the original link to [[deaf|late deafened adult]], (or perhaps create a new monaural hearing page).
As for the list of deaf people, that's another topic entirely. I'd suggest starting a list of culturally deaf people or list of people in Deaf history rather than displacing the current information on that page.
As for Henry Baker, please write about him on his page, not here! I only brought him up because the word deaf is underlined in the article titled Henry Baker and "Henry Baker" happens to start with H. I didn't mean to be inflammatory or promote his work or begin a discussion on Henry Baker.
As for being Ambassador of Softball and a sports columnist for USA Today, congratulations.
PS. Please try to direct your energy towards creating great wikipedia articles, rather than defending your stances in the talk pages.
-- Pengo 21:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I applied the category of medicine and culture to reflect the idea that this article arises from philosophical views. Someone promptly revised "medicine" to "ear, nose and throat surgery" with short editorial comment that 'medicine' was too broad. I would respond that "ear nose and throat surgery" does not address the philosophical origins of the medical model as "medicine" does and that this article is not about surgery of any kind. Another consideration is that this article does not approach deafness as a type of surgery but rather from conceptual framework. Thus a category of "medicine" or perhaps "pathology" best reflects the philosophical nature of the Medical model, while "Culture" as a category best reflects the nature of the Deaf Cultural model. "Disability" as a category seems appropriate for expressing the origins of the social disability view. I've changed the category back to medicine for the reason I've stated here. Ray Foster 01:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
gedday Ray, just so you don't feel singled out... its true that JFW (and I on occassion) work quite hard to keep the categories focused and the subcategories populated. I'm afraid I agree entirely with my colleague that the deafness cant stay in category medicine as cat:med would rapidly descend into anarchy without imposed order. My only constructive suggestion on categorisation is it probably works better on small focused articles... that is, it is easier to categorise an article that deals with one component of a topic... therapeutic management of hearing impairment is clearly a "medical model" article on the topic but would belong in cat:ent and maybe cat:audiology etc... I wonder if the current article would be better named as models of deafness it would then fit neatly within category:medical sociology... and maybe in another category that would include medical model and Biopsychosocial model and Evidence-based medicine... the deafness article could then be a shortish introduction that briefly touched all the facets of deafness sociological and medical within category:deafness... just some thoughts best wishes Erich 01:11, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry Ray, pathology is too broad and honestly off-topic ... category:disability and :category:ENT surg are really where this article belongs! by the way... this article lacks a whole bunch of basic info on deafness (how common? what causes it? historical aspects, impact on communication and language, key aspects of deaf culture, key medical aspects). best wishes Erich 19:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray - as someone who is familiar with the dispute resolution process on Wikipedia, I have been asked to comment on this issue. First, as a fairly new user, you should be aware that categories are supposed to be as specific as possible -- without this, the whole categorization system would be totally ineffective. General categories like medicine or culture will have few (if any) articles specifically in them, but should be made up mostly of subcategories. Moving article out of these categories and into subcategories is, in general, a very good thing. I changed Category:Culture (which was far too broad for this article) to category:Human communication (which is a subcategory of culture) because it is a more appropriate (specific) fit to what this article is about. I think that you should find this acceptable. The disability category is also a more specific fit (I couldn't tell what your opinion of this is given your long but utterly indecipherable comment). The disability category is a subcategory of medicine, and moving this article into there a good use of the category system. →Raul654 21:58, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
I spent more than half an hour cleaning up spelling, grammar, and syntax problems. I tried not to screw up the meaning of anyone's sentences in the process. My primary goal was to make this article use Standard English so that if a deaf child's parent came looking for information, she or he would not decide that all Deaf people are grammar-impaired. If someone would please deal with the rest of the article, I'd appreciate it.
Also, the stuff in "Cultural deafness and the medical model" has no apparent relationship with its heading. 'We are good parents' and 'How to tell if you're Deaf and not merely deaf' are interesting stories, but they say nothing at all about the medical model. It may be more relevant to move those to another page and delete the heading altogether.
Finally, I beg all writers on this article: if it's more than about 25 words long, please split it into at least two sentences! 70.137.173.241 19:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the social model of disability include the idea that society ought to fix the environment for deaf people, so that their deaf people is less of a disablity? Is this why some people took offense at Marlee Matlin's speaking a few words aloud without signing?
Is there a taboo or unwritten rule (advocated by Deaf culture) that the way to deal with deafness is that those who can hear ought to learn signing, as opposed to the idea that the deaf should learn to talk if they have any potential to do so? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 16:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Be careful to write in a neutral voice. For example, this sentence is not neutral: "Often, due to this perspective, hearing parents may experience diagnosis of their child’s deafness as a tragedy." You could rephrase, put in a citation, or give attribution. I am not suggesting that you take out the idea.
You might consider reordering the three perspectives so the medical model isn't first.
The whole bit about "professionals in mediating roles between cultures, notably persons engaged in activities of simultaneous interpretation, and schools." doesn't seem to fit in this page.
There are also redundant sections that need to get collapsed. Ncaselli ( talk) 21:48, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
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This page was a redirect to hearing impairment when I started on it. It needed to discuss Deaf culture.
Now we really need a Deaf person or a translator to look over this page and add to it!
There is a lot about the history of deaf people that I leaft out. Also, it needs discussion of organizations like the NAD and NTD. A reference to Gallaudet University, since that is so important to Deaf history in the U.S., is warranted as well. Also lacking is discussion of Deaf history outside the U.S. --hb
Why is "deaf" capitalized in the article? -- Tarquin 00:21, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)~
The Deaf community and Deaf Culture really deserve their own article seperate from the article here. I have taken the cultural information and moved it to its own page and plan to expand on it over time. This way this article can just mention the big 'D' deaf and supply a link, then go on with elucidation of what this article should be about which is the state of being deaf seperate from the culture, hearing or Deaf, which a person may belong. The two topics are very large and deserve seperate treatment. Hopefully both articles will continue to be refined - Qaz
Implanting very young children -- at ages as young as 6 months old, is no long so controversial from the perspective of efficacy. There of course remain ethical and Deaf cultural issues, but by today (Aug 2004) many studies have proven the efficacy of the treatment. Very early implantation combined with speech and language therapy has a very high rate of successfully enabling children to obtain spoken language. I suggest editing the paragraph on Medical Treatments to reflect this data.
Please note that I am somewhat biased -- my 5 year old son uses a cochlear implant, implanted at age 12 months. By age 3.5 years he was at a spoken language level appropriate for his age. At age 5 (current), his speech and language is indistinguishable from his peers. This outcome is not exceptional.
It's child abuse. In 1995 the Mayo Clinic's follow-up research on the cochlear implant demonstrated that 70 percent of implanted children were no longer using the implant by the early teen. Seventy Percent, Sir! Why? Because with these 70 percent, the implant made no significant improvement in the deaf's ability to understand or articulate language. Not controversial? You must be working for the Cochler Corporation. It's child abuse. These children grow up still not hearing and understanding yet they also have no critical-age mastery of a language, including sign language. If you've ever worked with developmentally disturbed deaf children with these "transistor radios" surgically implanted in their skull and witnessed how language deprevation has stunted their intellectual growth, you'd not be making such a broad brush endorsement of this Frankensteinian "technology of normalization."
I'm obviously representing a Point Of View -- as are you -- but let's please make sure our facts are correct. Please cite the research where the 70% number comes from. How old were the children when implanted? Current data shows very high success rates over the long term for children implanted before the age of 5. Here's a pointer to one of my data source (2003 -- much more recent) -- http://www.bapo.org.uk/8th_ESPO/data/html/2744.htm -- and I would encourage everyone to research this issue and come to their own conclusions. This is obviously a controversial issue. The point here on Wikipedia is to try to represent a neutral point of view. It's OK to point out that there is controversy in this area, but let's try to keep the main article from espousing one belief or another, but rather I think it should raise the controversy itself and inform the reader. For you it's child abuse, for me, it's an amazing thing -- my child can speak as well as, and hear almost as well his hearing friends at school. He does not struggle with speech reading or strain to be understood. Given that he is going blind, I don't think it's child abuse at all. However, I understand why you do. How can this dispute be fairly characterized in the main article page? I have very slightly edited the main section (leaving your additions) to point out the NPOV question. And to answer your question, I don't work for Cochlear Corp -- I'm the father of a customer, not an employee or shareholder.
"This is obviously a controversial issue"
Thank you. That's a sea change in your prior attitude from "... is no longer controversial" stated in bold headline. My data came from "Audiology," the professional, peer reviewed publication of American audiologists. It was about 1995. I haven't been able to find an online link to the article, but I wrote an editorial on the issues at the time, when I was the editor for a deaf social services organization.
Let's not talk about neutral points of view when you cite "studies have proven the efficacy of the treatment." The heading on this issue is "Views of Treatment," is it not? And the previous version of that heading was,
"Indeed, there is controversy in the Deaf community as to whether cochlear implants are a Good Thing at all, given the negative impact which the community would suffer from its depletion."
That's not a view of the deaf community! It's an invention of the Three Billion dollar a year human-services machine!
Now *where* did the data for THAT comment come from? It's not linked, referenced or cited at all! If we are going to post conjecture into this topic, what better witness to the Deaf (yes, that's what is written, capital "D") cultural point of view is there than from someone who is "of" that culture? It is the height of insult to deaf people to hang a claim of "depletion concerns" on a class of people who have get their head, ears and skulls worked over by doctors touting the next BIG THING. The entire idea that deafness is a handicap is so repugnant to deaf people we shudder to think it. We work every day of our lives, pay taxes, buy homes, raise children, contribute to our community and that's a disability? We don't even park in the handicap parking spots at the grocery store and we be shocked out of our minds if we knew a deaf person who did, yet many states STILL endow the deaf with that privilege. I say, if you don't want controversy, don't hang the "label" of "disabled" on the deaf. You'll always be wrong in doing so and you'll just invite people like me to rebut the insult.
Okay, look, if we break down the word "disability" we get "dis-", meaning, in this case, "lack of", and "ability". It simply means a lack of an ability. In the case of deafness, it is a lack of ability to hear, an ability present in the large majority of humanity. I fail to see why this is an insult or controversial. Sharazel ( talk) 04:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
In the absense of a means of contacting the contributor, Dcreemer, I'll ask here.
There is a great deal that can be done to achieve the neutrality of the article's content; bland though it will become. I'm willing to discuss it but there seems to be no one willing to so much as comment or interact on this issue with the exception of this one comment by Dcreemer. I'd go ahead and make such an attempt but I'd rather not do so without input on what specific language is at the center of the debate. It would be wasteful to attempt writing a neutral POV then have someone come along and critize the work for non-neutrality as in the present case. Let's take case of it beforehand.
Therefore, I'm willing to offer the use of my personal web site, a site that is password-protected and in which any conversation can be hidden from the view of any other site users without their knowing it even exists. This would insure the private and uninterrupted flow of discussion. But this is prefaced on the willingness of other people to participate. It will require me to set up a private account for other participants and add them to a special group. I want to be fair about this, but one person doing the writing without feedback is an invitation for failure.
Please contact me via my Wiki page using the email feature if you'd like to join in on creating a document that we all can live with. I suppose at time limit is in order. I have a great deal to say regarding a number of pages that deal with the deaf. I'm willing to wait five days for responses. If I do not hear from anyone within that time frame I'll assume my present work on the page is satisfactory and I will remove the NPOV disclaimer. The time limit begin today, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2004 and will end at midnight, Dec. 24.
Pengo, thank you for your feedback. Having written on deaf issues for 20 years I'm used to having oralist/audist and proponents of the technologies of normalization talk to me like I'm a child or paternalize me. It's an old story. Yours is nothing new so I'm not surprised or offended. While I appreciate your general tone and your willingness to be involved, I worked all night on my real job (writing films) and I'm just too tired to address your points now. I will say that I've completely rewritten the introductory information for this article and will be posting it on the Talk Page for discussion and criticism with my aim being to work toward Featured Article status. No one has expressed that aim as a goal and I'm optimistic that a collaberative and respectful spirt are possible and will aid us in achieving such a aim. I ask you to hold you criticism until I've actually posted my proposed revision. I'm working very hard to satisfy the style and intent of Wiki philosophy, something I've been striving to do since well before your arrival. I'll get back to your points once I've had a chance to rest. Ray Foster 03:14, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not getting any feedback from the person who posted the NPOV notice so I placed a Request for Comment when I found out there is a system in place to assist to resolve problems. At dispute presently, or as pertains to the NPOV, a contributor cited a study that supposedly closes the debate as to whether the cochlear implant is controversial. He even states this view in a comment in this Talk page. I am not unsympathetic to his views, especially since I learned he has a deaf son. But his is not the only concern or viewpoint. Beyond that, before I edited the original section, someone arbitrarily stated that the concern deaf people had about the cochlear implant was mainly that it would reduce the numbers of deaf people. No data or research was sited and I strongly disputed the remark because I knew, after nearly 20 years of research on deaf culture, that assertion to be false.
At that time, the contributer posted the NPOV notice, then, simply.......vanished. Posting an NPOV notice implies that one is prepared to engage in any dialogue that would hasten an agreement and get it removed to that progress on the page can continue. But that hasn't been the case. I've not hear a peep and I'd like to re-write this entire page and give it a truly neutral POV. In its present state, I've had to tactfully rebute out-and-out falsehoods. People have been posting negative views of the deaf, or things that suggest the deaf have an irrational view of the world, then not explaining why the deaf see certain things in certain way. One glaring example was a comment on how deaf people exclude certain others from their community.
So I ask others to guide me. I new to Wiki, but I'm not new to any issue concerning deafness. I've been deaf most of my adult life, have written on deaf issues as an editor and reporter and have been a student of deaf history and deaf culture for nearly three decades. I'm dedicated to providing quality and impartial content on all deaf issues and I just seems to me that this current conflict seeks to exclude the input of the deaf community, the very people it concerns, because it's something other contributors never bothered to learn about.
I also want to add, that the person who posted the NPOV comment may be as ignornant about the process of resolution as I am. Instead of posting a request for comment, he went straight to posting the NPOV after only one exchange. Clearly, that isn't the way the resolution process works and it abuses the established system: if you can post an NPOV then just disappear, everyone else is left to deal with the disagreement while the person who posted the NPOV has no intention of returning to work out a solution. Such an act ought to be put to the test by requiring the person who posted the NPOV notice to defend his position to those who are willing to resolve the problem (me, for example.) Posting an NPOV implies that other don't have the right to remove it. I'm honoring that, but how long do I wait for the person to return to the discussion and get the resolution under way?
Ray Foster 19:45, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Some contributors have not seen the request to refrain from editing this article while it is in mediation. I have reverted to a previous version because ALL information on this page is being mediated and contributors have posted information since a "stop editing" request was posted, including external links and additions to any section. I ask your patience and understanding while we await the appointment of a mediator. Thanks to all. Ray Foster 00:26, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I asked four medical doctors for their views as to the accuracy and neutrality of this proposal. Two of them were pediatricians (Peds) and two were general practitioners (GP. None of them have any association with deaf culture but all of them have had deaf patients. One of them was my personal physician (GP), another is a physician in San Francisco and owns the home next to me (Peds) and visit my city a couple of times a month. Another is a recent acquaintance who lives down the street from me (GP) and the other is an old friend who lives 500 miles away (Peds). I didn't get a single reaction of this proposal being inaccurate or none-neutral. What I did hear was that they thought it was fair, impartial and interesting. Yet, ultimately, it's not for them to decide. It is for active contributors to Wiki to criticize and improve. I think this proposal will solve most of the tension this subject generates. It will also render some current information moot, unusuable, theoretically unnecessary or patent nonsense. I ask that you read it and let me know what I can do to improve it. My analysis of the present article has led me to believe that it begins from an incorrect premise then wanders off into directions that render it difficult, if not impossible, to make a unified and coherent statement. Please let me know if you see any potential in this proposal toward correcting that problem. Ray Foster 21:47, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First off, great piece of work. I recently commented on your soapbox style of writing, and this piece certainly does not suffer the same problems. It does not have the same POV issues, or at least they're too subtle to warrant debate. The content is good. I have no problem with it being immediately included in the main article as is.
Having said that, I'd still like to see some editing (all of which could be done after the material is included in the main article). • I found the article pretty confusing to read when it jumps between models of deafness and models of disability. Can the models of deafness be said types of models of disability? and then just have links to, for example. Medical model of disability and Social model of disability rather than re-including the material.
Actually, I'm confused as to how the models of deafness fit in with the models of disability. • I take it the "Infirmity Model of Disability" means the same as the "Medical Model"? (judging from Medical model of disability). Personally, I'd prefer the term medical to infirmity.
• Does "The Cultural Deaf view of the Infirmity Model and Disability Models" really need to be its own (rather long) heading? I'm guessing you may have structured it this way to avoid POV issues, but I don't think it's necessary. This material could equally well be included at the end of the section titled "The Cultural Model of Deafness".
• Is there a Social Model of Deafness (seperate from the medical and cultural models?)
The article seems to imply it. It also says there are three models but then only has two main headings. Can the whole thing be changed to have simply three main headings: Models of Deafness (introduction text)
1. Medical model 2. Social model 3. Cultural model
(the cultural model section would probably need to be broken up into subsections too)
• Late deafened or "post-linguistically deaf" people don't seem to be addressed. I'm guessing many would be comfortable with the social or even medical models.
• Deaf schooling and education is a very large topic and it would be great to for it to be expanded, perhaps into its own article. But that's for another day.
• and lastly, an introduction would be nice. e.g. (this is really rough): There are three models of deafness: the medical, social and cultural models, which affect how deaf persons are treated and their identity. The medical model sees deafness as an undesirable condition to be treated. The social model sees the design of the deaf person's environment as the major disabling factor, while in the cultural model, the Deaf belong to a culture in which they are not infirm or disabled. The three models are expanded below.
Sorry if these comments are a bit all over the place, but I've only come to grips with the material and structure as I've been commenting. Again, I'm in favour of including the material, and it would certainly move the article towards Featured Article status.
--Pengo 01:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, having just attempted to link to hearing loss from audiometry. I found Ray's proposal to be fascinating, but the structure did seem confusing; I agree with Pengo that they should first be quickly defined, and it would be nice if subsequent references were consistent in terminology (even switching between infirmity model and disability model gets a bit confusing when mixed in with cultural model, social model, medical model or what-have-you). I also found parts of it to be needlessly wordy; as an example, it seemed unnecessary to bring up gay culture only to then point out that it was a completely different animal -- especially when membership in Deaf culture had already been clearly explained.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this feedback helps, but after completely giving up on the Deaf article partway through, I do think that this proposal represents a big move in the right direction. -- Oarih 14:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I must admit that I tossed and turned last night waiting to see if I had just gotten myself into deeper trouble or had achieved a measure of exoneration. I'm very thankful to have found common ground on which to move forward and I thank you both for your thoughtful and highly useful criticism. I'll try to give equally thoughtful responses to your concerns. First, I want to address the points that both of you (Pengo and Oarih [how do you pronounce "Oarih"] :-) have in common. Then I will address the individual points each of you had that were not in common.
The issue of terminology was a perplexing one to me, too. Especially the fine distinctions that were made between:
These terms came from two sources. The first was the chapter I cited from H. Lane, The Infirmity and Cultural Model of Deaf People. The second was QUITE extensive. It was for the voluminous professional journal "Disability, Handicap and Society". I've subscribed to this journal for over a decade. It is now called "Disability and Society" but the references were from the period when it was know by the former name. The journal is a British publication and H. Lane (Harlan Lane) is an American, a professor of psycholinguistics at Northeastern Univ. in Boston. I've corresponded with him for the past year on a range of deaf issues more associated with deaf history than deaf culture. Lane is influenced by European views of disability because it was in Europe that the concept of social disability arose so powerfully and then quickly spread to the western hemisphere. Both Lane's research and that of the hundreds researchers who contribute to Disability and Society is quite specific about this distinction between models of Infirmity and disability and I can't say definitively that Lane embraced these European terms (he may have devised them himself) but the literature of this journal abounds with these distinctions and these precise terms. I tried to find instances in which "medical model" was used in lieu of "infirmity" and I searched for instances in which "infirmity" was not distinguished from "disability". I couldn't find any instances that did that in either case. It strikes me as so subtle that it is almost indistinguishable. Yet, I didn't want to make an arbitrary assumption and simply change terms that, apparently, are the very framework in which these matters are researched, critiqued, and debated.
I acknowledge that the language of research and the language of current lay usage is often at odds. I also acknowledge that a certain precision of usage is employed in a cross-cultural research environment to avoid cultural taint. I didn't want to be the "ugly American" and just apply my own label to the terms and, in doing so, try and turn the article into an American point of view. There were instances in my writing in which I felt so weak in knowing what subtle differences there were in deaf culture outside of the United States that I decided in favor of caution and used example from American deaf culture that I was well-read in, rather than generalize a parallel to another country and end up getting my ears boxed over for generalizing when it didn't apply. Also, in my own writing on deaf issues, I've had my hands slapped no small amount of times for extending the term "medical model" into "medicalization of the deaf". It's HIGHLY sensitive and contentious term to people outside the realm of deaf culture to confront unschooled people with that rendering of the term "medical." So I put 2 and 2 together on this problem and thought that perhaps the reason I didn't see it in the profession journal is for the very reason that is rubs people the wrong way. It's something researchers are aware of and avoid. Possible? I don't know for sure. I was just striving to keep the language unremarkable and avoid the charge of not having a neutral POV.
There is another point to consider. That point being the view from dictionary definition. That may be a key to understanding why "infirm" is preferred in the literature. Here are the definitions for "medical" and "infirmity"
Medical:
Infirm (Infirmity):
It very well may be that "infirmity" is preferred to "medical" because medical has an all-incompassing conceptual basic that includes "wellness," "health," "preventative medicine". It is possible to grasp the distinction between one kind of medical model and another, but the concept of "infirmity" narrows the scope to a specialized focus that is more toward with "pathology" and away from "wellness" and preventative medicine. Could this be why social scientists defer to using "infirmity" rather than "medical" to conceptualize the model? I think it's arguable in favor of "infirmity" but I will NOT be the advocate for either term since I don't know the actual basis for using them.
Whatever the case, it is clear that we must provide a means of easily distinguishing between an "infirmity/medical model of deafness" and an "infirmity/medical model of disability". I despair of melding the two together since I've seen such well-qualified usage of the terms, but only in isolation of one-another. Since these two distinction were well-made in the literature, I had to search the deaf cultural resources for examples in which deaf people themselves distinguish between "infirmity" and "disability". It was easy to do from the standpoint of my own experience as a member of deaf culture. These are distinctions we make routinely. But I have no desire to "go there" for my information. I believed that since the deaf model makes precise distinctions about the rejection of both an "infirm" model of both deafness and disability, and then also reject the "social model of disability" that this cultural perspective bore a responsibility to explain itself. In doing so, I encountered the problem of how to distinguish deafness as both a culture in it's own right AND how it meets the precise definition of a language minority. That is why I used the comparisons with women, gays, African-Americans to provide a view of groups "disadvantaged" by majority culture and then used Hispanic and Native Americans to show how deaf culture fits in the category of language minority. I elaborated on the comparison between gay and deaf community for a couple of reason: 1) It was such an interesting point. Since I am both gay and deaf myself, I was struck with amazement about this point because it is so unique. 2) It makes a very strong example of demonstrating how groups are classified as a "culture" in terms of enduring a disadvantage yet persisting and thriving within a majority setting. I though using this example would be a good one to help us toward Featured Article status since this is information that is not merely accurate and highly illustrative of the concept it reveals, but that is an unusual fact that is almost unknown in serious sociological literature about both gay and deaf culture. It's kind of like a "scoop" in the newspaper business in which a certain source make widely known something that may have languished in the depths of academia but is now a hot topic.
I think I made progress and I'm mostly satisfied with the deaf cultural explanation of why "social disability" is inappropriate. It needs improvement. but I'm not happy with the deaf cultural examples that explain why "infirmity model" doesn't fit. I'm not saying I think it's lame or invalid. I personally agree with the deaf cultural view. I just don't think my example was strongly presented and that it needs work.
After I post these comments, I will take a breather and then come and add the proposed revision to the article itself. Once I do that, I'm certain there are a couple of sections that will be rendered redundant or useless. I will remove them but I just want to say beforehand that in no way am concerned if anyone wants to put back things I remove. I will make adjustments based only on my understanding of the overall goal. I'm certain I can't think of all possible reason to retain some material and discard other things. So please don't misconstrue my actions as an agenda. I want an overall coherence and consistency and will edit with intention of achieving that goal.
Ray Foster 04:36, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Pengo. I know I haven't responded to all your point. I've worn my fingers to the bone today and just need to rest a bit. I'll get to them, I promise. Ray Foster 04:39, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To respond quickly to the infirmity model vs medical model: The existing article " Medical model of disability" nearly exactly resembled (bullet points and wording) of your description of the infirmity model. So they appear to be the same thing. Doing a quick google search gives the following number of pages with each term:
"___ model"
"___ model of disability"
"___ model of deafness":
If the term "infirmity model of disability" was once popular in journals, it certainly isn't popular on the internet today.
Note: only English pages searched. (my default)
-- Pengo 09:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As, from a medical view point, deafness is a disability, the medical model of deafness is going to be a type of medical model of disability. I don't think you need a journal article to point that out. The same applies to social models. For now I've verbatim pasted your "social of disability" description into a "of deafness" heading. The content should (at a later stage) really be merged into " Social model of disability" or adapted to discuss deafness in particular.
-- Pengo 09:09, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I moved the following sections from Deafness to Hearing Impairment: I've recently worked on the H.I. article because I knew it dealt with the entire range of the various types and ranges of hearing loss. It is precisely the all-encompassing term that best depicts the infirmity view. So in addition to what I've done, I'll be spending a great deal of time with that page in an attempt to move it toward Featured Article status. It has tremendous potential and at least one person who has a special interest in the subject. Here are the sections I moved:
The following I just plain eliminated from the Deafness article because they are better addressed in Deaf Culture or Deaf History and are made somewhat unfocused by our revision. There is no Deaf History article yet. It's something I'm working on now. Given the great modification of the premise on the Deafness article, I thought it was simply overkill to go on and on about deaf culture. By doing that, one loses the intent of the deafness article's intention to disambiguate a sensitive subject. To just add more and more on deaf culture gives the appearance of tremendous imbalance of purpose. The truth is, deaf culture and history have enormous caches of literature, endless topics and gigantic philosophical arguments. With this page it would soon become a major concern as to where to stop illustrating the arguments over infirmity and disability the deaf cultural model has (substantial) and just seek a balance in perspective in all the competing arguments we presently have.
I'll say once again that I am preparing major additions to the Deaf Culture article and an entirely new article on Deaf History. All the issues addressed in the sections I removed will be brought back to life in my work on the existing Deaf Culture article and the new Deaf History article.
Again, I will say that I'm not opposed to other replacing the information I've moved if will work with the overall direction we've established with the new revision.
Ray Foster 07:25, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article no long really addresses deafness, but only models of deafness. It's not exactly what you'd expect what you follow a link from Hearing, Henry Baker, Halle Berry, Human variability, Hearing dog, or History of Minnesota. The merging of the old content with Hearing impairment actually makes more sense than I thought it would. And now I think it might make sense to rename Deafness to Models of deafness, and reference it from Hearing impairment. What further plans are there for this page to warrant keeping the title, and not simply redirecting Deafness to Hearing impairment?
-- Pengo 09:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray Foster 13:56, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray,
Sorry to move this page without further discussion. But it simply doesn't make sense under its present title ("Deafness"). You've really taken my comments the wrong way. My main concern (as indiciated by the heading) was the future of the article, as it only addresses models of deafness and no other aspect.
As a being disabiguation page, in the wiki sense of the term, models of deafness is nothing like one. (e.g. see dot or starfire)
As for the importance of linking being purposeful, I agree, and that's why I've redirected "Deaf" (and "Deafness") to a "Deaf individual" disabiguation page, which serves as an actual disambiguation page. With things left as they were, when someone clicked on " deaf" from Halle Berry they're treated to a discussion on how deaf persons are treated in society and Deaf identity. With the new page, when someone clicks on " deaf" from Halle Berry, they're encouraged to fix the original link to [[deaf|late deafened adult]], (or perhaps create a new monaural hearing page).
As for the list of deaf people, that's another topic entirely. I'd suggest starting a list of culturally deaf people or list of people in Deaf history rather than displacing the current information on that page.
As for Henry Baker, please write about him on his page, not here! I only brought him up because the word deaf is underlined in the article titled Henry Baker and "Henry Baker" happens to start with H. I didn't mean to be inflammatory or promote his work or begin a discussion on Henry Baker.
As for being Ambassador of Softball and a sports columnist for USA Today, congratulations.
PS. Please try to direct your energy towards creating great wikipedia articles, rather than defending your stances in the talk pages.
-- Pengo 21:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I applied the category of medicine and culture to reflect the idea that this article arises from philosophical views. Someone promptly revised "medicine" to "ear, nose and throat surgery" with short editorial comment that 'medicine' was too broad. I would respond that "ear nose and throat surgery" does not address the philosophical origins of the medical model as "medicine" does and that this article is not about surgery of any kind. Another consideration is that this article does not approach deafness as a type of surgery but rather from conceptual framework. Thus a category of "medicine" or perhaps "pathology" best reflects the philosophical nature of the Medical model, while "Culture" as a category best reflects the nature of the Deaf Cultural model. "Disability" as a category seems appropriate for expressing the origins of the social disability view. I've changed the category back to medicine for the reason I've stated here. Ray Foster 01:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
gedday Ray, just so you don't feel singled out... its true that JFW (and I on occassion) work quite hard to keep the categories focused and the subcategories populated. I'm afraid I agree entirely with my colleague that the deafness cant stay in category medicine as cat:med would rapidly descend into anarchy without imposed order. My only constructive suggestion on categorisation is it probably works better on small focused articles... that is, it is easier to categorise an article that deals with one component of a topic... therapeutic management of hearing impairment is clearly a "medical model" article on the topic but would belong in cat:ent and maybe cat:audiology etc... I wonder if the current article would be better named as models of deafness it would then fit neatly within category:medical sociology... and maybe in another category that would include medical model and Biopsychosocial model and Evidence-based medicine... the deafness article could then be a shortish introduction that briefly touched all the facets of deafness sociological and medical within category:deafness... just some thoughts best wishes Erich 01:11, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry Ray, pathology is too broad and honestly off-topic ... category:disability and :category:ENT surg are really where this article belongs! by the way... this article lacks a whole bunch of basic info on deafness (how common? what causes it? historical aspects, impact on communication and language, key aspects of deaf culture, key medical aspects). best wishes Erich 19:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ray - as someone who is familiar with the dispute resolution process on Wikipedia, I have been asked to comment on this issue. First, as a fairly new user, you should be aware that categories are supposed to be as specific as possible -- without this, the whole categorization system would be totally ineffective. General categories like medicine or culture will have few (if any) articles specifically in them, but should be made up mostly of subcategories. Moving article out of these categories and into subcategories is, in general, a very good thing. I changed Category:Culture (which was far too broad for this article) to category:Human communication (which is a subcategory of culture) because it is a more appropriate (specific) fit to what this article is about. I think that you should find this acceptable. The disability category is also a more specific fit (I couldn't tell what your opinion of this is given your long but utterly indecipherable comment). The disability category is a subcategory of medicine, and moving this article into there a good use of the category system. →Raul654 21:58, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
I spent more than half an hour cleaning up spelling, grammar, and syntax problems. I tried not to screw up the meaning of anyone's sentences in the process. My primary goal was to make this article use Standard English so that if a deaf child's parent came looking for information, she or he would not decide that all Deaf people are grammar-impaired. If someone would please deal with the rest of the article, I'd appreciate it.
Also, the stuff in "Cultural deafness and the medical model" has no apparent relationship with its heading. 'We are good parents' and 'How to tell if you're Deaf and not merely deaf' are interesting stories, but they say nothing at all about the medical model. It may be more relevant to move those to another page and delete the heading altogether.
Finally, I beg all writers on this article: if it's more than about 25 words long, please split it into at least two sentences! 70.137.173.241 19:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the social model of disability include the idea that society ought to fix the environment for deaf people, so that their deaf people is less of a disablity? Is this why some people took offense at Marlee Matlin's speaking a few words aloud without signing?
Is there a taboo or unwritten rule (advocated by Deaf culture) that the way to deal with deafness is that those who can hear ought to learn signing, as opposed to the idea that the deaf should learn to talk if they have any potential to do so? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 16:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Be careful to write in a neutral voice. For example, this sentence is not neutral: "Often, due to this perspective, hearing parents may experience diagnosis of their child’s deafness as a tragedy." You could rephrase, put in a citation, or give attribution. I am not suggesting that you take out the idea.
You might consider reordering the three perspectives so the medical model isn't first.
The whole bit about "professionals in mediating roles between cultures, notably persons engaged in activities of simultaneous interpretation, and schools." doesn't seem to fit in this page.
There are also redundant sections that need to get collapsed. Ncaselli ( talk) 21:48, 19 April 2019 (UTC)