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The reference to the articles by Dr Pulvermüller and colleagues are typographically inconsistent with the rest of the article and incomplete. For instance, now the entire author list is missing. Further the chosen references are somewhat inappropriate in the context of the present article. The suggestion is that the individual removing the edit please exercise a little more quality control and basic respect for other contributors. There is the opportunity for someone to write a decent section on Dr Pulvermüller's contributions to research upon MMN and MMNm in the context of language; a section where these references would be rather better placed. Until then, when the writing of such a section happens, the suggestion is to simply remove the inappropriate references to the Pulvermüller et al. work, which is now placed there almost randomly, in a typographically-inconsistent incomplete manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.205.5 ( talk)
A suggestion is to refer to Politizer's talk page, where a resolution was met. It seems the references have reverted to the original state. If Looie or someone else is knowledgeable enough to write a section on Dr Pulvermüller's contributions to research upon MMN and MMNm in the context of language, then such a section could be a way forward. Until this happens please understand that the best course of action is that the inappropriate references are removed again. 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 15:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Dear Politizer. It seems that you would like me to spend my time on writing a rationale for the deletion of 2 references. I would be concerned that if I did, then it would not be understood. For instance "Trying to understand what is going on here, it isn't so easy.", and then there would be yet another U-turn. Please understand that in the time that I write such a rationale, it would be possible for you to write an adequate section on the neurolinguistics of MMN. There are many published papers that demonstrate that MMN is task-independent and has thus been dubbed unconscious or not attentional. When this is considered, the work cited seems a somewhat arbitrary choice. There are many definitions of attention, which by-and-large are rather vague. To resolve, 1) the citations will be removed to leave only the seminal work. 2) Attention will be given a link to another relevant page. 3)Before you press the revert button, it is suggested that you consider writing a section on neurolinguistics, if you expect yet another rationale to be written.
Additionally, if the article to be professional, perhaps cite the article fully and be consistent in the referencing style, in the way you might see in the literature when you read it. It can be seen from the weblink in the article that the University of Helsinki is one of the major centres of expertise upon MMN, so blocking that IP blocks some expert contributions to the article from a large number of relevant experts. 83.150.81.158 ( talk) 16:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The rationale has already been available for you to read: There are many published papers that demonstrate that MMN is task-independent and has thus been dubbed unconscious or not attentional. When this is considered, the work cited seems a somewhat arbitrary choice. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 09:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's quite a lot to be said about that question. It is realised that no rationale will be safisfactory. But here goes: The Näätänen et al Acta Psykologia paper demonstrates for the first time the discovery that there is an MMN that is task-independent and isolated from the "attentional" processing negativity. Consider the number of citations of this paper in the published literature for instance on ISI and then compare the number of citations to the contrastingly arbitrary Pulvermüller papers mentioned, then this gives some insight into the relative importance of the work for the field. Obviously, this needs to be interpreted with some caution and is not the gold standard in measuring how good a scientific work is. If it is necessary to include Friedmann ulvermüller, Yury Shtyrov and Bob Carlyon's papers, it would be better to say something about the content of what is new about the work in the article. For instance, a section on neurolinguistics and MMN would really add well to the work. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 17:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Regrettably, the "war" exists in the mind of one student of linguistics only. It seems that the multiple rationales provided repeatedly are found as unacceptable by just one student of linguistics, who, as yet, has been unable to provide a decent section on the neurolinguistics of MMN, which at present is crowbarred into a section on the characteristics of MMN, which is arguably a very distinct phenomenon. The only rationale that student offered for one such change is "ugh". This is, indeed, a burden that makes it very difficult to make a constructive contribution to this article. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 11:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The rationales offered above seem full of links to wikipedia policy but lack any convincing content. This seems to be an open place where is would be alright to quote one of the main contributors to this article: "Anyway, thanks for devoting your time to Wikipedia. There are very few Psychology academics who do, with the result that most of the Psychology information is very bad. I alternate between hope and despair over my involvement with Wikipedia. I hope that this is a useful medium through which to communicate science to the public, but I despair that most other academics regard it as a complete waste of time, that the scale of the task is so huge, and that the pearls you and I cast into it will be obscured by ill-meaning, and even well-meaning, swine." 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 14:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, just one policy link, but it seems to be a running theme alongside the "in-words" for how people on wikipedia should behave. There is no discussion of genuine content. The references in question were removed and then Politizer hid them in the code so it would be possible to inappropriately resurrect them later. The resolution met with Politizer (alluded to above) has now been removed from Politizer's talk page in revisionist fashion. It seem that Looie did not understand and can no longer refer to the resolution upon Politizer's own talk page. But yet another additional rationale is that the influence of grammar on that form of MMN is revealed by MCE to involve a distinct section of cortex and is thus a distinct phenomenon not to be bracketed in with pitch, intensity and duration MMNs that are thought to be generated by a different parts of the brain. Surely, some additional content is needed to justify the Pulvermüller inclusions, not just contentless citations. Ít's necessary to quote again, in case this is obscured at some point, "Anyway, thanks for devoting your time to Wikipedia. There are very few Psychology academics who do, with the result that most of the Psychology information is very bad. I alternate between hope and despair over my involvement with Wikipedia. I hope that this is a useful medium through which to communicate science to the public, but I despair that most other academics regard it as a complete waste of time, that the scale of the task is so huge, and that the pearls you and I cast into it will be obscured by ill-meaning, and even well-meaning, swine.". 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
That's progress. Good work. 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 16:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC) P.S. Carlyon 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 16:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear to me what this statement claims. Certainly there are memory representations in the brain and there is plenty of information about these. Memories are acquired as a result of training, even if by trial and error, and in a sense they represent some type of real world regularity. There are also associations between representations, such as the sound of a word with the way it is written and its semantic meaning. There are also neurons that respond to pair associates of the same sensory modality in the perirhinal cortex. Perhaps there is relatively little neurophysiological evidence for specific things such as words for numbers (although there is some) but even then, that would not mean that the words for numbers are not represented in the human brain. The same can be said for musical tones, vocalisations, rhythmical patterns, etc. There is neurophysiological evidence, even from non-human primate studies, even if it is sometimes controversial. So what exactly is meant here with this statement?
Skamnelis (
talk) 14:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
>>There is an assumption that a memory trace, of a repeated sound, for instance, accumulates by some neurophysiological process. The manner in which that memory trace is measured is by MMN to a deviation, for instance from that repetition. There is no online neurophysiological recording made of the accumulation of the memory trace inferred during, for instance, the repetitions of the sound.
Positivity1 (
talk) 02:25, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The reference to the articles by Dr Pulvermüller and colleagues are typographically inconsistent with the rest of the article and incomplete. For instance, now the entire author list is missing. Further the chosen references are somewhat inappropriate in the context of the present article. The suggestion is that the individual removing the edit please exercise a little more quality control and basic respect for other contributors. There is the opportunity for someone to write a decent section on Dr Pulvermüller's contributions to research upon MMN and MMNm in the context of language; a section where these references would be rather better placed. Until then, when the writing of such a section happens, the suggestion is to simply remove the inappropriate references to the Pulvermüller et al. work, which is now placed there almost randomly, in a typographically-inconsistent incomplete manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.205.5 ( talk)
A suggestion is to refer to Politizer's talk page, where a resolution was met. It seems the references have reverted to the original state. If Looie or someone else is knowledgeable enough to write a section on Dr Pulvermüller's contributions to research upon MMN and MMNm in the context of language, then such a section could be a way forward. Until this happens please understand that the best course of action is that the inappropriate references are removed again. 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 15:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Dear Politizer. It seems that you would like me to spend my time on writing a rationale for the deletion of 2 references. I would be concerned that if I did, then it would not be understood. For instance "Trying to understand what is going on here, it isn't so easy.", and then there would be yet another U-turn. Please understand that in the time that I write such a rationale, it would be possible for you to write an adequate section on the neurolinguistics of MMN. There are many published papers that demonstrate that MMN is task-independent and has thus been dubbed unconscious or not attentional. When this is considered, the work cited seems a somewhat arbitrary choice. There are many definitions of attention, which by-and-large are rather vague. To resolve, 1) the citations will be removed to leave only the seminal work. 2) Attention will be given a link to another relevant page. 3)Before you press the revert button, it is suggested that you consider writing a section on neurolinguistics, if you expect yet another rationale to be written.
Additionally, if the article to be professional, perhaps cite the article fully and be consistent in the referencing style, in the way you might see in the literature when you read it. It can be seen from the weblink in the article that the University of Helsinki is one of the major centres of expertise upon MMN, so blocking that IP blocks some expert contributions to the article from a large number of relevant experts. 83.150.81.158 ( talk) 16:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The rationale has already been available for you to read: There are many published papers that demonstrate that MMN is task-independent and has thus been dubbed unconscious or not attentional. When this is considered, the work cited seems a somewhat arbitrary choice. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 09:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's quite a lot to be said about that question. It is realised that no rationale will be safisfactory. But here goes: The Näätänen et al Acta Psykologia paper demonstrates for the first time the discovery that there is an MMN that is task-independent and isolated from the "attentional" processing negativity. Consider the number of citations of this paper in the published literature for instance on ISI and then compare the number of citations to the contrastingly arbitrary Pulvermüller papers mentioned, then this gives some insight into the relative importance of the work for the field. Obviously, this needs to be interpreted with some caution and is not the gold standard in measuring how good a scientific work is. If it is necessary to include Friedmann ulvermüller, Yury Shtyrov and Bob Carlyon's papers, it would be better to say something about the content of what is new about the work in the article. For instance, a section on neurolinguistics and MMN would really add well to the work. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 17:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Regrettably, the "war" exists in the mind of one student of linguistics only. It seems that the multiple rationales provided repeatedly are found as unacceptable by just one student of linguistics, who, as yet, has been unable to provide a decent section on the neurolinguistics of MMN, which at present is crowbarred into a section on the characteristics of MMN, which is arguably a very distinct phenomenon. The only rationale that student offered for one such change is "ugh". This is, indeed, a burden that makes it very difficult to make a constructive contribution to this article. 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 11:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The rationales offered above seem full of links to wikipedia policy but lack any convincing content. This seems to be an open place where is would be alright to quote one of the main contributors to this article: "Anyway, thanks for devoting your time to Wikipedia. There are very few Psychology academics who do, with the result that most of the Psychology information is very bad. I alternate between hope and despair over my involvement with Wikipedia. I hope that this is a useful medium through which to communicate science to the public, but I despair that most other academics regard it as a complete waste of time, that the scale of the task is so huge, and that the pearls you and I cast into it will be obscured by ill-meaning, and even well-meaning, swine." 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 14:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, just one policy link, but it seems to be a running theme alongside the "in-words" for how people on wikipedia should behave. There is no discussion of genuine content. The references in question were removed and then Politizer hid them in the code so it would be possible to inappropriately resurrect them later. The resolution met with Politizer (alluded to above) has now been removed from Politizer's talk page in revisionist fashion. It seem that Looie did not understand and can no longer refer to the resolution upon Politizer's own talk page. But yet another additional rationale is that the influence of grammar on that form of MMN is revealed by MCE to involve a distinct section of cortex and is thus a distinct phenomenon not to be bracketed in with pitch, intensity and duration MMNs that are thought to be generated by a different parts of the brain. Surely, some additional content is needed to justify the Pulvermüller inclusions, not just contentless citations. Ít's necessary to quote again, in case this is obscured at some point, "Anyway, thanks for devoting your time to Wikipedia. There are very few Psychology academics who do, with the result that most of the Psychology information is very bad. I alternate between hope and despair over my involvement with Wikipedia. I hope that this is a useful medium through which to communicate science to the public, but I despair that most other academics regard it as a complete waste of time, that the scale of the task is so huge, and that the pearls you and I cast into it will be obscured by ill-meaning, and even well-meaning, swine.". 137.163.19.99 ( talk) 15:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
That's progress. Good work. 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 16:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC) P.S. Carlyon 128.214.205.5 ( talk) 16:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear to me what this statement claims. Certainly there are memory representations in the brain and there is plenty of information about these. Memories are acquired as a result of training, even if by trial and error, and in a sense they represent some type of real world regularity. There are also associations between representations, such as the sound of a word with the way it is written and its semantic meaning. There are also neurons that respond to pair associates of the same sensory modality in the perirhinal cortex. Perhaps there is relatively little neurophysiological evidence for specific things such as words for numbers (although there is some) but even then, that would not mean that the words for numbers are not represented in the human brain. The same can be said for musical tones, vocalisations, rhythmical patterns, etc. There is neurophysiological evidence, even from non-human primate studies, even if it is sometimes controversial. So what exactly is meant here with this statement?
Skamnelis (
talk) 14:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
>>There is an assumption that a memory trace, of a repeated sound, for instance, accumulates by some neurophysiological process. The manner in which that memory trace is measured is by MMN to a deviation, for instance from that repetition. There is no online neurophysiological recording made of the accumulation of the memory trace inferred during, for instance, the repetitions of the sound.
Positivity1 (
talk) 02:25, 16 July 2017 (UTC)