This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Opinion hidden in references, this is a new one to me, could someone please edit this.
^ A revealing description of one of the most callous military operations ever ordered by an American president is described by Stephen Ambrose in "The Christmas Bombings" in Robert Cowley, ed. The Cold War, New York: Random House, 2005.
Be Bold In Edits ( talk) 12:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
The name is wrong. What is the deal? It is MACV (militairy assistance command vietnam)SOG (SPECIAL OPERATIONS GROUP) MACV-SOG 75.90.230.90 ( talk) 12:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Both are correct. Studies and observation group was the unclassified cover name. Special operations group was the classified name. Remember, it didn't actually report to COMUSMACV either. A truly correct name would have been Special Assistant for Counterinsurgency and Special Activities Special Operations Group, which truly would be special.
Howard C. Berkowitz (
talk) 23:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There were several Australian's in this unit. I'm pretty sure they were from the Special Air Service Regiment. Somebody might want to add something with a source, so it's not just my memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.238.55 ( talk) 10:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
A few Norwegians worked in SOG maritime operations 1963-64. Some Germans were hired in 1964 to work in in SOG maritime operations, but they were fired soon after; the period they were working for SOG was probably too short for them to have been sent on actual operations.
There were Australians who served with U.S. Special Forces units in Vietnam, but I have not heard of any who served with SOG.
Ed Moise (
talk) 15:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I will be reviewing this article. I usually like to give general suggestions first, and then give more specific suggestions once they are addressed. Here are some initial suggestions:
The lack of in-line citations is the biggest problem I see. I'll put the article on hold for seven days to allow for these changes. Nikki♥ 311 22:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In response to the question above about unpublished documents: A lot of documents that have never been published can be found (and xeroxed) in the National Archives. Ed Moise ( talk) 23:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I believe the criteria raised in the review have been addressed fully. Raising rating to "A" class. Fifelfoo ( talk) 01:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The Norwegian and German employees were (I believe) brought in under the CIA before maritime ops were handed over to the US military. Foreign participation (besides indigenous personnel) was probably precluded by the need for plausible deniability. RM Gillespie ( talk) 13:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I think some Australian SAS guys might have served with (or operated with) SEAL teams in the IV CTZ, but also have never seen anything to indicate that any operated with SOG. Intothatdarkness ( talk) 15:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I think there were australians with sog http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78183 though this is not a book its a starting point in investigating this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.131.145 ( talk) 12:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Edit semi-protected i belive it is military advisory command vietnam special operations group
please change
173.10.246.162 (
talk) 03:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Never was any such critter as the Military Advisory Command. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) maybe, but SOG was created after it was renamed MACV. RM Gillespie ( talk) 14:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
The Army's green berets were in the SOG while the rangers were not, the rangers aren't special forces, they're just the cream of the crop of the infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achterberg1453 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Tailwind seems to be a fairly important part of the unit history, why isn't it mentioned here except in the sidebar? Sephiroth storm ( talk) 17:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
According to WP:COMMONNAME this article should be titled MACV-SOG. - Neptuunium ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I wanted to add a podcast link under the see also tab: HonorProject podcast on Vietnam SOG DavidHonor ( talk) 22:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
There is an inappropriate statement in the page that says Sihanouk was "trying to balance the threats facing his nation" when he allowed foreign military bases to be established in his country and allowed trans-shipments of military supplies through the country's ports. In terms of style, it would be best to just say what happened rather than try to offer explainations on this page for why he did what he did. His motives are too complicated a question for an article on SOG to deal with and the existing text goes too far to justify his decisions as being good ones. On the other side though, it might be worth mentioning the disputes over the Vietnamese presence in Cambodia within the US government. The CIA (for years) having denied that it was going on and the military conducting SOG operations at the same time. 184.21.142.22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I just wanted to mention that the new call of duty game (Black Ops Cold War), heavily features MACV-SOG operators, allowing you to play as ex MACC-SOG, and even participate in some of their actual missions in the Vietnam Wat. U7355608 ( talk) 17:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Recently a new DLC for the military simulation Game Arma 3 was released and it is centered around MACV-SOG, some members of the unit actually helped with the development of the DLC so I think that this is worthy to add to the article.
Was Michael E. Thornton really part of SOG/STDAT-158 during the operation for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor ?
So as I understand it, Thornton was not part of SOG/STDAT-158 (at least at the time of his rescue of Norris) and his unit reported in his MoH citation, Naval Advisory Group, might be genuine. Rob1bureau ( talk) 19:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Here's an easy one! In the "Daniel Boone" section of the article, I see "SOG C-130 blackbird" (lower case). This should be "SOG C-130 Blackbird" (upper case).
Not far below, the article mentions another C-130 configuration: "four specially-modified MC-130E Combat Talon (deployed under Combat Spear)." Here, "MC-130E Combat Talon" links to the "Lockheed C-130" article, at [ [1]]. Isn't there a convention that the first mention of a linked topic should be the one that links to the appropriate article? In this case, the previous "SOG C-130 Blackbird" should link to the "Lockheed C-130" article.
Thanks.
Jdickinson ( talk) 07:20, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Intothatdarkness: Hi, just wanted to ask about the change concerning the motto that I added in. Not trying to start a fight, just curious since I'm not as well-versed in Vietnam era stuff.
I found the poem in Plaster's 2004 book's preface where he specifically calls it SOG's motto. Was he being a bit over-generous in calling it their motto? Like, sure it captures the SOG spirit but it's not like everyone agreed to it? Thanks in advance Jasonkwe ( talk) ( contribs) 07:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Intothatdarkness Ahh gotcha. Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. I didn't add the Old Blue bit, though, I'd never heard of its use before now Jasonkwe ( talk) ( contribs) 04:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Given that the Phoenix Program has been well documented elsewhere, should there not be a LINK from this page to /info/en/?search=Phoenix_Program ?
Seems to me that many SOG operators were aware of Phoenix,if not directly involved. 86.159.198.204 ( talk) 16:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Opinion hidden in references, this is a new one to me, could someone please edit this.
^ A revealing description of one of the most callous military operations ever ordered by an American president is described by Stephen Ambrose in "The Christmas Bombings" in Robert Cowley, ed. The Cold War, New York: Random House, 2005.
Be Bold In Edits ( talk) 12:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
The name is wrong. What is the deal? It is MACV (militairy assistance command vietnam)SOG (SPECIAL OPERATIONS GROUP) MACV-SOG 75.90.230.90 ( talk) 12:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Both are correct. Studies and observation group was the unclassified cover name. Special operations group was the classified name. Remember, it didn't actually report to COMUSMACV either. A truly correct name would have been Special Assistant for Counterinsurgency and Special Activities Special Operations Group, which truly would be special.
Howard C. Berkowitz (
talk) 23:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There were several Australian's in this unit. I'm pretty sure they were from the Special Air Service Regiment. Somebody might want to add something with a source, so it's not just my memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.238.55 ( talk) 10:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
A few Norwegians worked in SOG maritime operations 1963-64. Some Germans were hired in 1964 to work in in SOG maritime operations, but they were fired soon after; the period they were working for SOG was probably too short for them to have been sent on actual operations.
There were Australians who served with U.S. Special Forces units in Vietnam, but I have not heard of any who served with SOG.
Ed Moise (
talk) 15:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I will be reviewing this article. I usually like to give general suggestions first, and then give more specific suggestions once they are addressed. Here are some initial suggestions:
The lack of in-line citations is the biggest problem I see. I'll put the article on hold for seven days to allow for these changes. Nikki♥ 311 22:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In response to the question above about unpublished documents: A lot of documents that have never been published can be found (and xeroxed) in the National Archives. Ed Moise ( talk) 23:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I believe the criteria raised in the review have been addressed fully. Raising rating to "A" class. Fifelfoo ( talk) 01:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The Norwegian and German employees were (I believe) brought in under the CIA before maritime ops were handed over to the US military. Foreign participation (besides indigenous personnel) was probably precluded by the need for plausible deniability. RM Gillespie ( talk) 13:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I think some Australian SAS guys might have served with (or operated with) SEAL teams in the IV CTZ, but also have never seen anything to indicate that any operated with SOG. Intothatdarkness ( talk) 15:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I think there were australians with sog http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78183 though this is not a book its a starting point in investigating this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.131.145 ( talk) 12:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Edit semi-protected i belive it is military advisory command vietnam special operations group
please change
173.10.246.162 (
talk) 03:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Never was any such critter as the Military Advisory Command. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) maybe, but SOG was created after it was renamed MACV. RM Gillespie ( talk) 14:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
The Army's green berets were in the SOG while the rangers were not, the rangers aren't special forces, they're just the cream of the crop of the infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achterberg1453 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Tailwind seems to be a fairly important part of the unit history, why isn't it mentioned here except in the sidebar? Sephiroth storm ( talk) 17:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
According to WP:COMMONNAME this article should be titled MACV-SOG. - Neptuunium ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I wanted to add a podcast link under the see also tab: HonorProject podcast on Vietnam SOG DavidHonor ( talk) 22:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
There is an inappropriate statement in the page that says Sihanouk was "trying to balance the threats facing his nation" when he allowed foreign military bases to be established in his country and allowed trans-shipments of military supplies through the country's ports. In terms of style, it would be best to just say what happened rather than try to offer explainations on this page for why he did what he did. His motives are too complicated a question for an article on SOG to deal with and the existing text goes too far to justify his decisions as being good ones. On the other side though, it might be worth mentioning the disputes over the Vietnamese presence in Cambodia within the US government. The CIA (for years) having denied that it was going on and the military conducting SOG operations at the same time. 184.21.142.22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I just wanted to mention that the new call of duty game (Black Ops Cold War), heavily features MACV-SOG operators, allowing you to play as ex MACC-SOG, and even participate in some of their actual missions in the Vietnam Wat. U7355608 ( talk) 17:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Recently a new DLC for the military simulation Game Arma 3 was released and it is centered around MACV-SOG, some members of the unit actually helped with the development of the DLC so I think that this is worthy to add to the article.
Was Michael E. Thornton really part of SOG/STDAT-158 during the operation for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor ?
So as I understand it, Thornton was not part of SOG/STDAT-158 (at least at the time of his rescue of Norris) and his unit reported in his MoH citation, Naval Advisory Group, might be genuine. Rob1bureau ( talk) 19:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Here's an easy one! In the "Daniel Boone" section of the article, I see "SOG C-130 blackbird" (lower case). This should be "SOG C-130 Blackbird" (upper case).
Not far below, the article mentions another C-130 configuration: "four specially-modified MC-130E Combat Talon (deployed under Combat Spear)." Here, "MC-130E Combat Talon" links to the "Lockheed C-130" article, at [ [1]]. Isn't there a convention that the first mention of a linked topic should be the one that links to the appropriate article? In this case, the previous "SOG C-130 Blackbird" should link to the "Lockheed C-130" article.
Thanks.
Jdickinson ( talk) 07:20, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Intothatdarkness: Hi, just wanted to ask about the change concerning the motto that I added in. Not trying to start a fight, just curious since I'm not as well-versed in Vietnam era stuff.
I found the poem in Plaster's 2004 book's preface where he specifically calls it SOG's motto. Was he being a bit over-generous in calling it their motto? Like, sure it captures the SOG spirit but it's not like everyone agreed to it? Thanks in advance Jasonkwe ( talk) ( contribs) 07:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Intothatdarkness Ahh gotcha. Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. I didn't add the Old Blue bit, though, I'd never heard of its use before now Jasonkwe ( talk) ( contribs) 04:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Given that the Phoenix Program has been well documented elsewhere, should there not be a LINK from this page to /info/en/?search=Phoenix_Program ?
Seems to me that many SOG operators were aware of Phoenix,if not directly involved. 86.159.198.204 ( talk) 16:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)