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Actually the book I got the quote from was Hometown Heros: Dubuque Remembers WW II. I got it mixed up with a similar book the Dubuque Telegraph Herald published that had Our Country Called in its title that delt with Korean and Vietnam Veterans.
This sentence could be construed as quite disparaging and really needs a citation if it is going to stay in: "Mark Clark's quick rise from field officer through general officer ranks has been attributed[citation needed] to his relationship with Generals George Marshall and Dwight Eisenhower." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.88.111 ( talk) 16:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
DMorpheus ( talk) 20:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that Clark is recognized as being one of the greatest generals, if not the greatest of WW2. He was reponsible for the defeat of Italy, one of the three major powers. This should be researched further. Wallie ( talk) 15:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Greatest General of WW2??? How? He took Rome, but Italy overthrew Mussolini and sought peace with the allies when Sicily fell. Clark was not a prime mover in that! The bulk of the fighting in the Italian campaign was against the Germans, and it became a War of Liberation, as the Germans ultimately treated Italy as an occupied country. By taking Rome, far from achieving a decisive victory in the campaign, Clark had to face Kesselring at the Gothic line to the north, and the War in Italy was still raging when Germany surrendered. So Clark didn't force Italy to make peace, or win a great victory to drive the Germans out of Italy. So how does this make him a better General than say Patton, or Montgomery, or Bradley, or Zhukov? And I'm not considering the Pacific War here, or lower ranked Generals like Gavin or Taylor. The comment about the British wanting to have the entry into Rome for themselves is how Clark saw things. He wanted the Honor of being the "conqueror of Rome" and believed the orders from Alexander were to "cheat him" of the glory. But in pursuit of publicity, he gave up the chance of destroying the German Army in Italy. If he'd done that he may have been able to stake such a claim. Instead he went for publicity, and got it for a whole 2 days until D-Day put the Italian campaign off the front pages. If you don't want to back a "big name" like Patton or Montgomery as the best Allied General in the West, a better choice would be Patton's Corps commander Collins who was more responsible than anyone for the victory in the battle of Falaise, which smashed the German Army in Normandy. Much more significant militarily than Clark's triumphant entry into Rome, even if it wasn't the quite the same photo op.
I'm going to document the following after going through my library: 1) Clark's conduct during the Salerno campaign was widely criticized for being haphazard and timid. 2) The landing at Anzio was a near-complete disaster because the troops were not allowed to proceed and had nowhere to retreat to out of reach of the German big guns. 3) The bombardment of Monte Cassino was predicted to be a disaster because a ruins is easier to defend than a building intact, and the direct assault up the hill by various mountain units resulted in some losses greater than 90%.
As to his promotion up the ranks, this has always been something of a mystery, according to everything I have read. Let me see what I can find out about that. Uniquerman ( talk) 20:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
We need to include the perspective of someone who was on the ground. Norman Lewis, in Naples '44, has a blistering account of the conduct of the Salerno landings, with incompetence and panic running down from Clark to the units under his command. There was no proper organization and officers deserted their men. If it hadn't been for the long range fire of the warships, the German counter attack would have succeeded.
Train Guard — Preceding unsigned comment added by Train guard ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
From Operation Market Garden, The Legend of the Waal Crossing - Tim Lynch:
p.131-133.7 / 584:
The real issue was less about how the war should be won and increasingly about who would be seen to have won it. Nowhere was this attitude more clearly demonstrated than in Italy where, in May 1944, a multinational force under the overall command of British Field Marshal Sir Harold Alexander was involved in heavy fighting. After the breakout from Anzio, Alexander’s plan was to send the American Fifth Army under Lieutenant General Mark ‘Wayne’ Clark north and east to cut off the escape route of Kesselring’s 10th and 14th Armies as the British Eighth Army pushed northwards. Clark, however, had other ideas. Determined to be the first General to capture an enemy capital, Clark told Alexander that if men of the Eighth Army approached Rome before his men could, he would order his Fifth Army troops (of whom only around a third were American, the remainder British, Polish, French and Commonwealth units) to fire on them - a threat Alexander chose not to hear because of the need for US support. As a result,
"Clark’s calculated act was to prove as militarily stupid as it was insubordinate. He deliberately committed what must rank as one of the most misguided blunders made by any Allied Commander during World War II. About to win a stunning victory that would not only have given him the flattering prize of Rome virtually without a fight, but would have earned him immortality as a great battlefield Commander, Mark Clark suddenly dismembered [Alexander’s plan]."
p.133 / 584:
Clark would only allow himself to be photographed from what he considered his best side and travelled with his own 50-strong publicity staff who, amongst other things, created a special Fifth Army song that began ‘Stand up, stand up for General Clark, let’s sing the praises of General Clark …’
...
Clark had graduated from West Point 109th of his class of 135 in 1917. His pre-war friendship with Eisenhower served him well and at 46 he had became the youngest Lieutenant General in US history. He was to receive the Distinguished Service Order for gallantry at Salerno, an action in which he retreated back aboard ship when the landings came under fire and ordered the Fifth Army to ‘prepare to evacuate the beach.’
...
In his determination to take credit for the capture of Rome, Clark had openly disobeyed orders and allowed the German troops to escape and reorganise and in doing so had lengthened the war in Italy at a cost of thousands of Allied lives. When he died in 1984, however, he was reported in a UPI press release of 20 April as having been a ‘four-star general, who led the Allied conquest of Italy’.
← ZScarpia 12:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Nope. Marshall's mother was Laura Bradford Marshall. Refer George C. Marshall. Wallie ( talk) 15:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
THis is mostly junk about a bizarre little incident and says absolutely nothing NOTHING about Clark's conduct of the ending of the war. It should be deleted, and something more detailed an appropriate put in its place.
The 5th sentence in the opening in this article seems incomplete to me:
Can somebody fix this to what it was they intended to say? 143.120.99.10 ( talk) 21:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Please review and respond here:
-- David Tornheim ( talk) 17:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
1) The footnote supporting this title is a dead link. 2) In the article Battle_of_Monte_Cassino, in the section [ /info/en/?search=Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#Clark_captures_Rome_but_fails_to_trap_German_Tenth_Army ], contains the following passage regarding "Lieutenant General Clark, commanding the American Fifth Army": "However, General Alexander, C-in-C of the AAI, had clearly laid down the Army boundaries before the battle and Rome was allocated to the Fifth Army." 3) I am just a neophyte to WWII history, but unless I am mistaken, a superficial reading of my point (2) would indicate Clark was following Alexander's orders. 4) So why does the third paragraph of Mark Clark's article state the opposite (see below), that Clark ignored Alexanders orders? "Clark has been heavily criticized for ignoring the orders of his superior officer, British General Sir Harold R. L. G. Alexander, and allowing the German 10th Army to slip away, in his drive to take Rome, the capital of Italy, a strategically unimportant city." SalineBrain ( talk) 04:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
The "External links" section is bloated and needs trimming. Some content may be able to be integrated into the article but 10 links is not necessary. -- Otr500 ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Regarding the table, I am wondering if it is missing additional promotions for the Regular Army. Clark served as Commanding General, US Forces Austria and as Commander in Chief of United Nations Command (both requiring a promotion to four star I believe) after post-war demobilization in 1946. From what I understand reviewing the Army of the United States page, Clark should have reverted back to his last Regular Army rank of Brigadier General and then been promoted from within the Regular Army to assume those roles. Correct me if I am wrong; I don't have the greatest grasp on how AUS ranks worked after the war. FrostyMuppets ( talk) 13:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Actually the book I got the quote from was Hometown Heros: Dubuque Remembers WW II. I got it mixed up with a similar book the Dubuque Telegraph Herald published that had Our Country Called in its title that delt with Korean and Vietnam Veterans.
This sentence could be construed as quite disparaging and really needs a citation if it is going to stay in: "Mark Clark's quick rise from field officer through general officer ranks has been attributed[citation needed] to his relationship with Generals George Marshall and Dwight Eisenhower." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.88.111 ( talk) 16:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
DMorpheus ( talk) 20:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that Clark is recognized as being one of the greatest generals, if not the greatest of WW2. He was reponsible for the defeat of Italy, one of the three major powers. This should be researched further. Wallie ( talk) 15:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Greatest General of WW2??? How? He took Rome, but Italy overthrew Mussolini and sought peace with the allies when Sicily fell. Clark was not a prime mover in that! The bulk of the fighting in the Italian campaign was against the Germans, and it became a War of Liberation, as the Germans ultimately treated Italy as an occupied country. By taking Rome, far from achieving a decisive victory in the campaign, Clark had to face Kesselring at the Gothic line to the north, and the War in Italy was still raging when Germany surrendered. So Clark didn't force Italy to make peace, or win a great victory to drive the Germans out of Italy. So how does this make him a better General than say Patton, or Montgomery, or Bradley, or Zhukov? And I'm not considering the Pacific War here, or lower ranked Generals like Gavin or Taylor. The comment about the British wanting to have the entry into Rome for themselves is how Clark saw things. He wanted the Honor of being the "conqueror of Rome" and believed the orders from Alexander were to "cheat him" of the glory. But in pursuit of publicity, he gave up the chance of destroying the German Army in Italy. If he'd done that he may have been able to stake such a claim. Instead he went for publicity, and got it for a whole 2 days until D-Day put the Italian campaign off the front pages. If you don't want to back a "big name" like Patton or Montgomery as the best Allied General in the West, a better choice would be Patton's Corps commander Collins who was more responsible than anyone for the victory in the battle of Falaise, which smashed the German Army in Normandy. Much more significant militarily than Clark's triumphant entry into Rome, even if it wasn't the quite the same photo op.
I'm going to document the following after going through my library: 1) Clark's conduct during the Salerno campaign was widely criticized for being haphazard and timid. 2) The landing at Anzio was a near-complete disaster because the troops were not allowed to proceed and had nowhere to retreat to out of reach of the German big guns. 3) The bombardment of Monte Cassino was predicted to be a disaster because a ruins is easier to defend than a building intact, and the direct assault up the hill by various mountain units resulted in some losses greater than 90%.
As to his promotion up the ranks, this has always been something of a mystery, according to everything I have read. Let me see what I can find out about that. Uniquerman ( talk) 20:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
We need to include the perspective of someone who was on the ground. Norman Lewis, in Naples '44, has a blistering account of the conduct of the Salerno landings, with incompetence and panic running down from Clark to the units under his command. There was no proper organization and officers deserted their men. If it hadn't been for the long range fire of the warships, the German counter attack would have succeeded.
Train Guard — Preceding unsigned comment added by Train guard ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
From Operation Market Garden, The Legend of the Waal Crossing - Tim Lynch:
p.131-133.7 / 584:
The real issue was less about how the war should be won and increasingly about who would be seen to have won it. Nowhere was this attitude more clearly demonstrated than in Italy where, in May 1944, a multinational force under the overall command of British Field Marshal Sir Harold Alexander was involved in heavy fighting. After the breakout from Anzio, Alexander’s plan was to send the American Fifth Army under Lieutenant General Mark ‘Wayne’ Clark north and east to cut off the escape route of Kesselring’s 10th and 14th Armies as the British Eighth Army pushed northwards. Clark, however, had other ideas. Determined to be the first General to capture an enemy capital, Clark told Alexander that if men of the Eighth Army approached Rome before his men could, he would order his Fifth Army troops (of whom only around a third were American, the remainder British, Polish, French and Commonwealth units) to fire on them - a threat Alexander chose not to hear because of the need for US support. As a result,
"Clark’s calculated act was to prove as militarily stupid as it was insubordinate. He deliberately committed what must rank as one of the most misguided blunders made by any Allied Commander during World War II. About to win a stunning victory that would not only have given him the flattering prize of Rome virtually without a fight, but would have earned him immortality as a great battlefield Commander, Mark Clark suddenly dismembered [Alexander’s plan]."
p.133 / 584:
Clark would only allow himself to be photographed from what he considered his best side and travelled with his own 50-strong publicity staff who, amongst other things, created a special Fifth Army song that began ‘Stand up, stand up for General Clark, let’s sing the praises of General Clark …’
...
Clark had graduated from West Point 109th of his class of 135 in 1917. His pre-war friendship with Eisenhower served him well and at 46 he had became the youngest Lieutenant General in US history. He was to receive the Distinguished Service Order for gallantry at Salerno, an action in which he retreated back aboard ship when the landings came under fire and ordered the Fifth Army to ‘prepare to evacuate the beach.’
...
In his determination to take credit for the capture of Rome, Clark had openly disobeyed orders and allowed the German troops to escape and reorganise and in doing so had lengthened the war in Italy at a cost of thousands of Allied lives. When he died in 1984, however, he was reported in a UPI press release of 20 April as having been a ‘four-star general, who led the Allied conquest of Italy’.
← ZScarpia 12:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Nope. Marshall's mother was Laura Bradford Marshall. Refer George C. Marshall. Wallie ( talk) 15:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
THis is mostly junk about a bizarre little incident and says absolutely nothing NOTHING about Clark's conduct of the ending of the war. It should be deleted, and something more detailed an appropriate put in its place.
The 5th sentence in the opening in this article seems incomplete to me:
Can somebody fix this to what it was they intended to say? 143.120.99.10 ( talk) 21:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Please review and respond here:
-- David Tornheim ( talk) 17:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
1) The footnote supporting this title is a dead link. 2) In the article Battle_of_Monte_Cassino, in the section [ /info/en/?search=Battle_of_Monte_Cassino#Clark_captures_Rome_but_fails_to_trap_German_Tenth_Army ], contains the following passage regarding "Lieutenant General Clark, commanding the American Fifth Army": "However, General Alexander, C-in-C of the AAI, had clearly laid down the Army boundaries before the battle and Rome was allocated to the Fifth Army." 3) I am just a neophyte to WWII history, but unless I am mistaken, a superficial reading of my point (2) would indicate Clark was following Alexander's orders. 4) So why does the third paragraph of Mark Clark's article state the opposite (see below), that Clark ignored Alexanders orders? "Clark has been heavily criticized for ignoring the orders of his superior officer, British General Sir Harold R. L. G. Alexander, and allowing the German 10th Army to slip away, in his drive to take Rome, the capital of Italy, a strategically unimportant city." SalineBrain ( talk) 04:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
The "External links" section is bloated and needs trimming. Some content may be able to be integrated into the article but 10 links is not necessary. -- Otr500 ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Regarding the table, I am wondering if it is missing additional promotions for the Regular Army. Clark served as Commanding General, US Forces Austria and as Commander in Chief of United Nations Command (both requiring a promotion to four star I believe) after post-war demobilization in 1946. From what I understand reviewing the Army of the United States page, Clark should have reverted back to his last Regular Army rank of Brigadier General and then been promoted from within the Regular Army to assume those roles. Correct me if I am wrong; I don't have the greatest grasp on how AUS ranks worked after the war. FrostyMuppets ( talk) 13:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)