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Content in the article Criminal Ordinance of 1670 should probably be merged here. Mathglot ( talk) 01:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
We should merge "Origins" and "End of the Middle Ages" sections since both cover the origins of the groups in the Middle Ages.
Also I can't find a reference supporting the 1191 date for sergents d'armes, only the 1190. I suspect it's an error as that is the date for the Grand Constable. Skingski ( talk) 03:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph since it seems to go without saying but am preserving it here in case it should be readmitted into the article:
The provosts rendered justice in a provostal court [ fr. The enforcement bodies of these different jurisdictions were the company of the Constabulary and the companies of the Maréchaussée. [1] page needed Skingski ( talk) 15:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
References
In the Provostal tribunals section, we call the merged court, "la Cour de la Connétablie et Maréchaussée de France" in French but in English, the "Constabulary and Marshalcy Tribunal." We don't call the Maréchaussée "the Marshalcy" generally in the article as we preserve its French name. So perhaps we rename it.
Another question is if it was called this in the 15th Century when it merged - I think the term "Maréchaussée" emerges much later, right? The Lorgnier 1994 reference calls the merged tribunal at this time, the "Connetablie des Marchaux de France":
Right now, Lorgnier is all I have on this question, but would prefer a second supporting citation to settle the question. Skingski ( talk) 01:10, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
This uncited paragraph under "Provostal tribunals" seems problematic:
1). My impression is the nascent Maréchaussée was only peripherally involved in cracking down on grand companies; Constable of France Bertrand Du Guesclin persuaded/pushed them into Spain in 1365-6. Subsequent Maréchaussée duties through the 16th Century focused on the activities of unemployed mercs distinguishable from the grand companies.
2). Per the wikipage for Compagnie_d'ordonnance, the importance of these companies was that they pressed roving bands of miscreant and unemployed mercenaries into a standing army in order to diminish crime by problems such bands. Moreover, the Compagnie_d'ordonnance wikipage indicates that they were created in 1439, not 1445.
3). I'm unclear how much the Maréchaussée drove the change to provincial jurisdictions vs the king pressing for this. I have not found a reference on the former possibility yet; only that the king deemed it necessary due by reflection of his ordinances which start 65 years after 1445. Skingski ( talk) 19:49, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Note the next subsection, "16th century," discusses the mercenary problem again which I plan to expand. Skingski ( talk) 20:47, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
It may be useful to have a brief section on this group's abuses and attempts by the monarchy to reign them in. I envision it as outside the History section. 2603:8080:2706:3A01:D923:E476:37FC:3CE3 ( talk) 21:39, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Putting this here in case someone can explain: Brouillet (2016) calls the 25 January 1536 edict the Edict of Fountainebleu on p. 33 and p. 390. However, French wiki at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_%C3%A9dits_de_France lists it as the Edict of Paris. Numerous websites also name it this such as https://www.police-nationale.net/gendarmerie/, including this article: https://www.cairn.info/les-politiques-publiques-de-securite--9782130591092-page-7.htm Thus, I use this latter title. Skingski ( talk) 01:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
There seem to be about 6–8 harv/sfn no target errors in the citations now, due to inline short footnotes such as {{
sfn}} and others which don't point to anything. They seem to have been introduced by Skingski's run of edits in March, where they added short footnotes without linking them properly. It looks like the references are listed for most of them—I haven't gone through one by one and don't have time to check now, but it's likely due to missing |ref=
params in the citations for authors who have more than one work in the list and uniqueness letters are added to the citeref. If someone doesn't get to it before me, I'll fix them eventually.
Mathglot (
talk) 05:45, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Maréchaussée article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Content in the article Criminal Ordinance of 1670 should probably be merged here. Mathglot ( talk) 01:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
We should merge "Origins" and "End of the Middle Ages" sections since both cover the origins of the groups in the Middle Ages.
Also I can't find a reference supporting the 1191 date for sergents d'armes, only the 1190. I suspect it's an error as that is the date for the Grand Constable. Skingski ( talk) 03:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph since it seems to go without saying but am preserving it here in case it should be readmitted into the article:
The provosts rendered justice in a provostal court [ fr. The enforcement bodies of these different jurisdictions were the company of the Constabulary and the companies of the Maréchaussée. [1] page needed Skingski ( talk) 15:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
References
In the Provostal tribunals section, we call the merged court, "la Cour de la Connétablie et Maréchaussée de France" in French but in English, the "Constabulary and Marshalcy Tribunal." We don't call the Maréchaussée "the Marshalcy" generally in the article as we preserve its French name. So perhaps we rename it.
Another question is if it was called this in the 15th Century when it merged - I think the term "Maréchaussée" emerges much later, right? The Lorgnier 1994 reference calls the merged tribunal at this time, the "Connetablie des Marchaux de France":
Right now, Lorgnier is all I have on this question, but would prefer a second supporting citation to settle the question. Skingski ( talk) 01:10, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
This uncited paragraph under "Provostal tribunals" seems problematic:
1). My impression is the nascent Maréchaussée was only peripherally involved in cracking down on grand companies; Constable of France Bertrand Du Guesclin persuaded/pushed them into Spain in 1365-6. Subsequent Maréchaussée duties through the 16th Century focused on the activities of unemployed mercs distinguishable from the grand companies.
2). Per the wikipage for Compagnie_d'ordonnance, the importance of these companies was that they pressed roving bands of miscreant and unemployed mercenaries into a standing army in order to diminish crime by problems such bands. Moreover, the Compagnie_d'ordonnance wikipage indicates that they were created in 1439, not 1445.
3). I'm unclear how much the Maréchaussée drove the change to provincial jurisdictions vs the king pressing for this. I have not found a reference on the former possibility yet; only that the king deemed it necessary due by reflection of his ordinances which start 65 years after 1445. Skingski ( talk) 19:49, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Note the next subsection, "16th century," discusses the mercenary problem again which I plan to expand. Skingski ( talk) 20:47, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
It may be useful to have a brief section on this group's abuses and attempts by the monarchy to reign them in. I envision it as outside the History section. 2603:8080:2706:3A01:D923:E476:37FC:3CE3 ( talk) 21:39, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Putting this here in case someone can explain: Brouillet (2016) calls the 25 January 1536 edict the Edict of Fountainebleu on p. 33 and p. 390. However, French wiki at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_%C3%A9dits_de_France lists it as the Edict of Paris. Numerous websites also name it this such as https://www.police-nationale.net/gendarmerie/, including this article: https://www.cairn.info/les-politiques-publiques-de-securite--9782130591092-page-7.htm Thus, I use this latter title. Skingski ( talk) 01:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
There seem to be about 6–8 harv/sfn no target errors in the citations now, due to inline short footnotes such as {{
sfn}} and others which don't point to anything. They seem to have been introduced by Skingski's run of edits in March, where they added short footnotes without linking them properly. It looks like the references are listed for most of them—I haven't gone through one by one and don't have time to check now, but it's likely due to missing |ref=
params in the citations for authors who have more than one work in the list and uniqueness letters are added to the citeref. If someone doesn't get to it before me, I'll fix them eventually.
Mathglot (
talk) 05:45, 9 August 2023 (UTC)