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Whoever spoke the name at the top of the article has a strong foreign accent. A native French speaker should record a new version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.132.211.9 ( talk) 12:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. The organization is known, and internationally registered under its french name, complete with accented characters. This means that the correct pronunciation of the name is a french one. As a student of french, I recognize that the accent of the reader speaking the name is quite neutral, and could quite easily have been spoken by a native English speaker with a good grasp of French as a second language. Indeed, pronouncing the name in 'English' would introduce a strong foreign accent, as second language pronunciations of foreign words tend to be heavily coloured by the speaker's own regional inflections. I endorse keeping the spoken pronunciation guide as is. ( Muhanned Nuaimy-Barker ( talk) 09:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC))
Requested move to
Doctors Without Borders: Discussion closed with consensus not to move
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The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 16:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC) Médecins Sans Frontières → Doctors Without Borders – Médecins Sans Frontières is merely the French name for Doctors Without Borders (and indeed, the name is a direct translation); on their English-language website, they call themselves Doctors Without Borders. As this is the name of the organization in English, its Wikipedia article page should reflect its English-language name. The other language Wikis, such as sv:Läkare utan gränser, follow the same practice of localization. Médecins Sans Frontières should be a redirect to Doctors Without Borders in the English language Wiki.– Titanium Dragon ( talk) 06:25, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
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Contrary to the article's Categories: tag, MSF's location is listed as Geneva, Switzerland. Beingsshepherd ( talk) 04:42, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
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I'll just link a blog post that has links to relevant pages: [1] -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 14:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
We have a flurry of undiscussed renames going on. This needs to stop. Whatever the appropriate name, we need to decide on that, move to it and then stop edit-warring over it. [2] [3] [4] This is an abuse of WP:RM/TR. It's not a technical request, it's a subjective rename, based on an unsupported assertion. As an undiscussed rename, it should never have been actioned. As a rename in the middle of challenged and reverted renames, it should certainly never have been requested. Given the frequency of such similar bad requests (although not this article or editor) I'd even see this as justifying a request at WP:AN seeking a TBAN against using RM/TR in such a way. For sourcing, https://www.msf.org/who-we-are "We are Médecins Sans Frontières" could hardly be clearer. Andy Dingley ( talk) 08:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
So, what should we use as a title?
Lines such as "[...]To that end, the organisation emphasises "independence and impartiality", and explicitly precludes political, economic, or religious factors in its decision making. For these reasons, it limits the amount of funding received from governments or intergovernmental organisations." in the opening section read like Wikipedia:MISSION. CMP ( talk) 19:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a controversies (note plural) section but the only thing is about Hong Kong and the controversial thing seems to be that MSF didn't take any action. Is that controversial? I can't tell. There's two citations saying MSF did nothing and the only link that might suggest that is controversial goes to an article about nothing. There is any absence of any sources saying anything was controversial. Should we remove this section? CT55555 ( talk) 02:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Whichever of MSF and DWB is most common overall in the English-speaking world does not seem to be determinable, especially since every single source uses the two terms with different frequencies, even those written in the same standard variety of English! ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 16:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Médecins Sans Frontières → Doctors Without Borders – The English name for this organization is Doctors Without Borders. Since this site is written in English, and the subject of this article has a common name in English, the article title should also be written in English. This is the English Wikipedia, not the French Wikipedia. In every other Wikipedia this article's title is in the language used by that Wikipedia - why should the English Wikipedia be any different? Crossover1370 ( talk | contribs) 04:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 07:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language. I don't particularly care if the most common name agrees with UK, US, or other usage - we use what is most common. There is no place for someone being anti-American in this discussion. -- Netoholic @ 17:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Well, I'm British, and I've almost always heard it as Médecins Sans Frontières in this country, the home of English!. Pro Britishism from the outset - your nationalism has drenched every subsequent comment you've make here. Stop WP:GASLIGHTING. -- Netoholic @ 17:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
"In English-speaking Canada, the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland, French is the first foreign language taught and in number of pupils is far ahead of other languages."
So, incidentally, British people seem to be pretty familiar with French.On the contrary, most British people have no command of French whatsoever. We are (in)famous for our poor command of other languages, whether we are taught them at school or not. I have two O-levels in French, but (to my shame) I couldn't speak it now to save my life. So this is a complete non-argument. It is also completely irrelevant to Wikipedia naming. Just because English-speakers often have a poor command of foreign languages doesn't mean we should translate every foreign name into English even if it's not commonly used. That's pure ignorance. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources. So it's a WP:COMMONNAME issue first and foremost. Also, if you're going to repeat the same points over and over, you should consider reading WP:BLUDGEON. As the nominator, I would expect you to stop responding to every single comment you disagree with, and to trust the process a little more. Pilaz ( talk) 21:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Methodology: Searched for exact "Médecins sans Frontières" and "Doctors without Borders" text in Google results (non-case sensitive, non-accent sensitive) based on reliable sources found at WP:RSP, then went to the very last page of Google search results to get an accurate number of articles bearing the query. Caveat: Google will not display more than 30 pages of results, so even for extremely popular terms like "Obama" you will get 300 results maximum, which means that if MSF or DWB both got around 300 results in Google, it means that the popularity in each term cannot be determined through a Google search. However, these undetermined results are a minority, so there is still value in a survey of reliable sources through Google.
Analysis: there are many RS that can be added to this table, but broadly the results will remain the same by adding more sources: Australia and the UK lean towards MSF, whereas the United States and New Zealand lean towards DWB. Canada shows parity in most reliable sources (which is understandable given the bilingualism of the country). In many cases, however, articles will both introduce both the MSF and DWB denominations to the reader. Given that the organization refers to itself as "Médecins Sans Frontières" (but often also as "Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders"), and that it won the Nobel Prize under the "Médecins Sans Frontières" label in 1999, my personal preference is for the first term over the latter. Others can interpret these results differently, but hopefully this advances this discussion somewhat. Pilaz ( talk) 21:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Médecins Sans Frontières: international (not French) medical aid charity; no need to translate it" Pam D 17:27, 27 August 2022
Médecins Sans Frontières is referred to most commonly in casual and formal English speech as Doctors Without Borders."? No, it is commonly referred to as MSF. I wonder whether "MSF", or perhaps "MSF (humanitarian organisation)", would really be the best title? Pam D 05:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
There's been a rash of seemingly non-neutral, unsourced edits made by one user since 11 December 2022 at 14:09. I'm not a smart enough editor to know if this is a serious issue, I'm just someone who needs the information and it felt off, so I thought I would bring it up to the larger group where someone with more understanding than myself could make potentially corrective edits. Thank you. Kinnayrberes ( talk) 00:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Médecins Sans Frontières ( final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 4 December 2023 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
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Whoever spoke the name at the top of the article has a strong foreign accent. A native French speaker should record a new version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.132.211.9 ( talk) 12:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. The organization is known, and internationally registered under its french name, complete with accented characters. This means that the correct pronunciation of the name is a french one. As a student of french, I recognize that the accent of the reader speaking the name is quite neutral, and could quite easily have been spoken by a native English speaker with a good grasp of French as a second language. Indeed, pronouncing the name in 'English' would introduce a strong foreign accent, as second language pronunciations of foreign words tend to be heavily coloured by the speaker's own regional inflections. I endorse keeping the spoken pronunciation guide as is. ( Muhanned Nuaimy-Barker ( talk) 09:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC))
Requested move to
Doctors Without Borders: Discussion closed with consensus not to move
|
---|
The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 16:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC) Médecins Sans Frontières → Doctors Without Borders – Médecins Sans Frontières is merely the French name for Doctors Without Borders (and indeed, the name is a direct translation); on their English-language website, they call themselves Doctors Without Borders. As this is the name of the organization in English, its Wikipedia article page should reflect its English-language name. The other language Wikis, such as sv:Läkare utan gränser, follow the same practice of localization. Médecins Sans Frontières should be a redirect to Doctors Without Borders in the English language Wiki.– Titanium Dragon ( talk) 06:25, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
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Contrary to the article's Categories: tag, MSF's location is listed as Geneva, Switzerland. Beingsshepherd ( talk) 04:42, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
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I'll just link a blog post that has links to relevant pages: [1] -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 14:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
We have a flurry of undiscussed renames going on. This needs to stop. Whatever the appropriate name, we need to decide on that, move to it and then stop edit-warring over it. [2] [3] [4] This is an abuse of WP:RM/TR. It's not a technical request, it's a subjective rename, based on an unsupported assertion. As an undiscussed rename, it should never have been actioned. As a rename in the middle of challenged and reverted renames, it should certainly never have been requested. Given the frequency of such similar bad requests (although not this article or editor) I'd even see this as justifying a request at WP:AN seeking a TBAN against using RM/TR in such a way. For sourcing, https://www.msf.org/who-we-are "We are Médecins Sans Frontières" could hardly be clearer. Andy Dingley ( talk) 08:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
So, what should we use as a title?
Lines such as "[...]To that end, the organisation emphasises "independence and impartiality", and explicitly precludes political, economic, or religious factors in its decision making. For these reasons, it limits the amount of funding received from governments or intergovernmental organisations." in the opening section read like Wikipedia:MISSION. CMP ( talk) 19:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a controversies (note plural) section but the only thing is about Hong Kong and the controversial thing seems to be that MSF didn't take any action. Is that controversial? I can't tell. There's two citations saying MSF did nothing and the only link that might suggest that is controversial goes to an article about nothing. There is any absence of any sources saying anything was controversial. Should we remove this section? CT55555 ( talk) 02:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Whichever of MSF and DWB is most common overall in the English-speaking world does not seem to be determinable, especially since every single source uses the two terms with different frequencies, even those written in the same standard variety of English! ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 16:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Médecins Sans Frontières → Doctors Without Borders – The English name for this organization is Doctors Without Borders. Since this site is written in English, and the subject of this article has a common name in English, the article title should also be written in English. This is the English Wikipedia, not the French Wikipedia. In every other Wikipedia this article's title is in the language used by that Wikipedia - why should the English Wikipedia be any different? Crossover1370 ( talk | contribs) 04:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 07:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language. I don't particularly care if the most common name agrees with UK, US, or other usage - we use what is most common. There is no place for someone being anti-American in this discussion. -- Netoholic @ 17:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Well, I'm British, and I've almost always heard it as Médecins Sans Frontières in this country, the home of English!. Pro Britishism from the outset - your nationalism has drenched every subsequent comment you've make here. Stop WP:GASLIGHTING. -- Netoholic @ 17:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
"In English-speaking Canada, the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland, French is the first foreign language taught and in number of pupils is far ahead of other languages."
So, incidentally, British people seem to be pretty familiar with French.On the contrary, most British people have no command of French whatsoever. We are (in)famous for our poor command of other languages, whether we are taught them at school or not. I have two O-levels in French, but (to my shame) I couldn't speak it now to save my life. So this is a complete non-argument. It is also completely irrelevant to Wikipedia naming. Just because English-speakers often have a poor command of foreign languages doesn't mean we should translate every foreign name into English even if it's not commonly used. That's pure ignorance. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources. So it's a WP:COMMONNAME issue first and foremost. Also, if you're going to repeat the same points over and over, you should consider reading WP:BLUDGEON. As the nominator, I would expect you to stop responding to every single comment you disagree with, and to trust the process a little more. Pilaz ( talk) 21:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Methodology: Searched for exact "Médecins sans Frontières" and "Doctors without Borders" text in Google results (non-case sensitive, non-accent sensitive) based on reliable sources found at WP:RSP, then went to the very last page of Google search results to get an accurate number of articles bearing the query. Caveat: Google will not display more than 30 pages of results, so even for extremely popular terms like "Obama" you will get 300 results maximum, which means that if MSF or DWB both got around 300 results in Google, it means that the popularity in each term cannot be determined through a Google search. However, these undetermined results are a minority, so there is still value in a survey of reliable sources through Google.
Analysis: there are many RS that can be added to this table, but broadly the results will remain the same by adding more sources: Australia and the UK lean towards MSF, whereas the United States and New Zealand lean towards DWB. Canada shows parity in most reliable sources (which is understandable given the bilingualism of the country). In many cases, however, articles will both introduce both the MSF and DWB denominations to the reader. Given that the organization refers to itself as "Médecins Sans Frontières" (but often also as "Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders"), and that it won the Nobel Prize under the "Médecins Sans Frontières" label in 1999, my personal preference is for the first term over the latter. Others can interpret these results differently, but hopefully this advances this discussion somewhat. Pilaz ( talk) 21:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Médecins Sans Frontières: international (not French) medical aid charity; no need to translate it" Pam D 17:27, 27 August 2022
Médecins Sans Frontières is referred to most commonly in casual and formal English speech as Doctors Without Borders."? No, it is commonly referred to as MSF. I wonder whether "MSF", or perhaps "MSF (humanitarian organisation)", would really be the best title? Pam D 05:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
There's been a rash of seemingly non-neutral, unsourced edits made by one user since 11 December 2022 at 14:09. I'm not a smart enough editor to know if this is a serious issue, I'm just someone who needs the information and it felt off, so I thought I would bring it up to the larger group where someone with more understanding than myself could make potentially corrective edits. Thank you. Kinnayrberes ( talk) 00:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)