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I don't have the time or the inclination to fix the rather severe stylistic errors in this page. It almost seems like it was mechanically translated from Italian and lightly proofed by someone who speaks English only as a second or third language. I think I caught most of the worst grammatical and spelling errors, however, and I think all of the sentences at least make sense, now.
Is there any chance we can have a link to the original Italian article? I could help with editing. [Scarlett McQueen]
I really don't know why this has been described as a "Christian" epic. This isn't Paradise Lost. Yes, like (virtually) every Italian of his time Ariosto was a Christian, although AFAIK not an exceptionally devout one. Perhaps the editor is confusing Orlando furioso with the other great Italian epic of the 16th century, Tasso's Gerusalemme liberata, where Christian themes play a markedly more prominent role. On the other hand, Orlando certainly belongs to the genre of "romantic epic" and is described as such on the title page of Barbara Reynolds' translation. -- Folantin ( talk) 16:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. The definition of a Christian epic is a work that relies on Christians as the protagonists. Thats it. As Zatti's The Quest for Epic reveals, Tasso received his understanding of the Christian epic from Ariosto then made it his own. And anyone can be a lecturer at Cambridge. Cambridge has many hacks and the rest. And giving an adjective undue weight? Sure, if you want to deny actual scholarship. And the word "basta" doesn't exist. The fact that you are in denial about actual scholarship, relying on two bit hack writers, and trying to make a claim that an epic in which Christians are battling Saracens is not a Christian epic, is rather appaling. Now, if you would like to continue this, I suggest not. You have no basis under WP:V or WP:RS, nor do your comments fit the conditions of WP:NPOV. You have already been proved wrong by direct quotes from scholarship. Ottava Rima ( talk) 19:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. Folantin, this is the last thing I will be saying to you on the matter. As I pointed out from the google books, the term is "Romance Epic". You can click on it and look a the hundreds of titles. Romance is also an adjective. Romantic is a term used for the late 18th/early 19th century movement. Anyone who works within the epic genre knows about this. They know that the terms mean two different things: romance means an open ended quest or story that is primarily focused on mortals and romantic means the idealization of a thought or image. They are very different in their meanings. Some Romantics relied on Romance. These are separate and unique terms. Harold Bloom uses them as separate and unique terms. Thomas Greene uses them as separate and unique terms. M. H. Abrams uses them as separate and unique terms. All major scholarship uses them as separate and unique terms. Furthermore, your "OED definition" is using romance meaning love, not Romance the literary term. This is a literary discussion. You work only within literary definitions. Ottava Rima ( talk) 22:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Given that this is a little teensy bit in the lead, why not just call this poem an epic, without further qualification? Is there a reason why the first sentence of the article has to define exactly what type of epic poem the Orlando Furioso is? --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I see no reason to give way to a single user who refuses to listen or to look things up. I admit that "romantic epic" may give the uninitiated reader a little start, and should be properly introduced, in a way that perhaps assumes not everyone is familar with the term (e.g. "a prime example of the genre that came to be known as 'romantic epic'", or similar). Naively, if you read "romantic epic" compositionally, you are confused, because of course Ariost was not "a Romantic". It needs to be made clear that the compound "romantic epic" refers to precisely the genre of 16th century poetry under discussion here. It is one thing to struggle with the term a little or consider how it may be better explained, it is quite another to, as "Ottava Rima" did, make a huge fuss even after the case as been spelled out for you. Show some good grace, man, and admit that you have learned something new. -- dab (𒁳) 09:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
The OED examples (under 4d) shed some further light on the confusion
so, it seems no coincidence that Coleridge is both seen as the originator (although according to Folantin he isn't, really) of the terminology "romantic epic" applied to Ariosto as used by Folantin, and in turn called the "founder of the romantic [i.e. Romanticist] school of poetry" (I am saying, it was the Romantics who called the romantic romantic, which is largely why they were themselves called "Romantics"). Ottava Rima isn't to be blamed for being confused by this, only for then being an ass about it. -- dab (𒁳) 09:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Dbachmann - the point is this. There are actual "romantic" epics. As mentioned in the source that Folantin produced on the fringe noticeboard, these were responses to neoclassicism. Logically, it would be impossible for Ariosto et al to respond to a period that happened long after their deaths. But that doesn't matter. The term "Romance" and term "Romantic" are divided clearly within the critical field. I think it is also misleading to use the term "romantic" when even Wikipedia has it go to Romanticism because that is where it belongs. We have two unique words, and Romance Epic is used within hundreds of books. Ottava Rima ( talk) 15:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Just to chip in here, I agree that it's accurate to call Orlando Furioso a romantic epic; I suggested calling it merely an "epic" as a way to work around the argumentative tendency of a particular editor. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Since Folantin selectively chooses which sources to use and ignores the large majority, here is a list of sources that actually use the term correctly and are respected within academia: 1, [ttp://books.google.com/books?id=WbZ5AAAAIAAJ&q=Romantic+Epic+Blake&dq=Romantic+Epic+Blake&pgis=1 2], 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, http://books.google.com/books?id=RGWXYxezJDMC&pg=PA173&dq=Romantic+Epic+Keats 12].
Or, for more on just Keats and his use of the Romantic Epic, please see the references at User:Ottava_Rima/Keats.
As for the term "Romance Epic", which is the appropriate term, please see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Tobias Gregory's book, David Quint's book, Thomas Greene's book, etc, or any of the over 7,000 hits in google books for a lot more. Ottava Rima ( talk) 20:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
it has already been granted that "romance epic" is acceptable too. Hint, you need to google for "romantic epic" (in quotes), not for +romantic +epic. sheesh.
note how Ariosto comes up right at the top in the proper seach for "romantic epic" on google books. Sheesh, it is pathetic how this has become just about being right. You are right in claiming that "romance epic" is fine too. You were wrong all along in claiming that use of "romantic epic" is wrong. So there. If it makes you happy, we can use "romance epic" (which I grant is less ambiguous) and move on. -- dab (𒁳) 21:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
really. So which does The Cambridge History of Italian Literature p. 243 fall under, "mistook what they said" or "not qualified in the area"? The upshot is that once it is clear that the context is 16th century Italian literature, there isn't the slightest problem with using "romantic", while it can be ambiguous if the context isn't clear. Oh wait, you've let us know that it is 'a minor use without any actual basis behind it.' Wow. Let's toss Cambridge, then, and turn to Ottava Rima instead from now on. Ottava, you may argue that it may be better to use "romance" for this reason, but your continued insistence that Folantin's sources are somehow invalid is really childish. If you think that Geogre is on your side, how about you just sit back and let Geogre talk to Folantin. I know both as erudite and reasonable, and I have no doubt they will have a consensus between them in five minutes. -- dab (𒁳) 16:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:CITE should be possible to grasp for everybody. We have references calling it a "romantic epic" and references calling it a "romance epic". The two terms in this context are exactly synonymous, and it is a matter open to discussion which we should prefer. Was any source cited that calls it a "Christian epic" on top of being a romance-tic one? If anyone is interested, the article could say "Fichter believes that even Ariosto's Orlando furioso is fundamentally a Christian epic" [5]. This is an opinion, and it amounts to OR to state such an opinion in Wikipedia's voice. Note the "even", which I submit would suggest that such a classification is far from obvious... Arguing that "the protagonists are Christian, hence it is a Christian epic" is silly, and the very definition of WP:SYN: on the same grounds, we could call it a "Frankish epic" and any number of other things. -- dab (𒁳) 19:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
wth, is there any point to this any more? You have been invited to change "romantic epic poem" to "romance epic poem" in the lead. You haven't done so. Are you here to improve articles, or just for a chat? If the above is your idea of a friendly chat, I don't wonder if you feel a bit lonely. Now can we please mind WP:TALK and stick to the point. If you want to do the "romance" edit, go ahead. If you don't, just drop it. If you want to discuss Fichter's or anyone else's opinions in detail, kindly edit the Orlando Furioso article. Thank you. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
“Romantic epic” is a perfectly respectable term, commonly and accurately applied to works such as Orlando Furioso. I see Prof. Zatti frequently invoked in the discussion above. He may be an authority on Italian epic, but he is certainly not an authority on the English language, which is the point at issue. His book on epic is translated “by Sally Hill with Dennis Looney”, so what is actually being invoked is their usage. Like many other scholars, C.S. Lewis uses the term, “romantic epic” e.g. in the Preface to Paradise Lost (where he speaks of “the romantic or chivalrous epic of Boiardo, Ariosto and Spenser”). Pedantry may be irritating but it's only useful when it is accurate. Not when it's used to create a mare’s nest. Ettormo ( talk) 20:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
This is not about "Christian epic" but in a way related to it. It makes sense to use this category for Dante Alighieri, Torquato Tasso and others who espressed in their works central concepts of Christian theology; but Ariosto - as far as I know - never did it. I suggest to cancel the attribution to this category. -- Broletto ( talk) 10:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This article has less number of citations kindly provide proper citations and try to improve article according to Wikipedia policies and if you allow my self I can certainly help you in expanding it. Thanks.-- Faizan Munawar Varya chat contributions 10:15, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ludovico Ariosto article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I don't have the time or the inclination to fix the rather severe stylistic errors in this page. It almost seems like it was mechanically translated from Italian and lightly proofed by someone who speaks English only as a second or third language. I think I caught most of the worst grammatical and spelling errors, however, and I think all of the sentences at least make sense, now.
Is there any chance we can have a link to the original Italian article? I could help with editing. [Scarlett McQueen]
I really don't know why this has been described as a "Christian" epic. This isn't Paradise Lost. Yes, like (virtually) every Italian of his time Ariosto was a Christian, although AFAIK not an exceptionally devout one. Perhaps the editor is confusing Orlando furioso with the other great Italian epic of the 16th century, Tasso's Gerusalemme liberata, where Christian themes play a markedly more prominent role. On the other hand, Orlando certainly belongs to the genre of "romantic epic" and is described as such on the title page of Barbara Reynolds' translation. -- Folantin ( talk) 16:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. The definition of a Christian epic is a work that relies on Christians as the protagonists. Thats it. As Zatti's The Quest for Epic reveals, Tasso received his understanding of the Christian epic from Ariosto then made it his own. And anyone can be a lecturer at Cambridge. Cambridge has many hacks and the rest. And giving an adjective undue weight? Sure, if you want to deny actual scholarship. And the word "basta" doesn't exist. The fact that you are in denial about actual scholarship, relying on two bit hack writers, and trying to make a claim that an epic in which Christians are battling Saracens is not a Christian epic, is rather appaling. Now, if you would like to continue this, I suggest not. You have no basis under WP:V or WP:RS, nor do your comments fit the conditions of WP:NPOV. You have already been proved wrong by direct quotes from scholarship. Ottava Rima ( talk) 19:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. Folantin, this is the last thing I will be saying to you on the matter. As I pointed out from the google books, the term is "Romance Epic". You can click on it and look a the hundreds of titles. Romance is also an adjective. Romantic is a term used for the late 18th/early 19th century movement. Anyone who works within the epic genre knows about this. They know that the terms mean two different things: romance means an open ended quest or story that is primarily focused on mortals and romantic means the idealization of a thought or image. They are very different in their meanings. Some Romantics relied on Romance. These are separate and unique terms. Harold Bloom uses them as separate and unique terms. Thomas Greene uses them as separate and unique terms. M. H. Abrams uses them as separate and unique terms. All major scholarship uses them as separate and unique terms. Furthermore, your "OED definition" is using romance meaning love, not Romance the literary term. This is a literary discussion. You work only within literary definitions. Ottava Rima ( talk) 22:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Given that this is a little teensy bit in the lead, why not just call this poem an epic, without further qualification? Is there a reason why the first sentence of the article has to define exactly what type of epic poem the Orlando Furioso is? --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I see no reason to give way to a single user who refuses to listen or to look things up. I admit that "romantic epic" may give the uninitiated reader a little start, and should be properly introduced, in a way that perhaps assumes not everyone is familar with the term (e.g. "a prime example of the genre that came to be known as 'romantic epic'", or similar). Naively, if you read "romantic epic" compositionally, you are confused, because of course Ariost was not "a Romantic". It needs to be made clear that the compound "romantic epic" refers to precisely the genre of 16th century poetry under discussion here. It is one thing to struggle with the term a little or consider how it may be better explained, it is quite another to, as "Ottava Rima" did, make a huge fuss even after the case as been spelled out for you. Show some good grace, man, and admit that you have learned something new. -- dab (𒁳) 09:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
The OED examples (under 4d) shed some further light on the confusion
so, it seems no coincidence that Coleridge is both seen as the originator (although according to Folantin he isn't, really) of the terminology "romantic epic" applied to Ariosto as used by Folantin, and in turn called the "founder of the romantic [i.e. Romanticist] school of poetry" (I am saying, it was the Romantics who called the romantic romantic, which is largely why they were themselves called "Romantics"). Ottava Rima isn't to be blamed for being confused by this, only for then being an ass about it. -- dab (𒁳) 09:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Dbachmann - the point is this. There are actual "romantic" epics. As mentioned in the source that Folantin produced on the fringe noticeboard, these were responses to neoclassicism. Logically, it would be impossible for Ariosto et al to respond to a period that happened long after their deaths. But that doesn't matter. The term "Romance" and term "Romantic" are divided clearly within the critical field. I think it is also misleading to use the term "romantic" when even Wikipedia has it go to Romanticism because that is where it belongs. We have two unique words, and Romance Epic is used within hundreds of books. Ottava Rima ( talk) 15:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Just to chip in here, I agree that it's accurate to call Orlando Furioso a romantic epic; I suggested calling it merely an "epic" as a way to work around the argumentative tendency of a particular editor. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Since Folantin selectively chooses which sources to use and ignores the large majority, here is a list of sources that actually use the term correctly and are respected within academia: 1, [ttp://books.google.com/books?id=WbZ5AAAAIAAJ&q=Romantic+Epic+Blake&dq=Romantic+Epic+Blake&pgis=1 2], 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, http://books.google.com/books?id=RGWXYxezJDMC&pg=PA173&dq=Romantic+Epic+Keats 12].
Or, for more on just Keats and his use of the Romantic Epic, please see the references at User:Ottava_Rima/Keats.
As for the term "Romance Epic", which is the appropriate term, please see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Tobias Gregory's book, David Quint's book, Thomas Greene's book, etc, or any of the over 7,000 hits in google books for a lot more. Ottava Rima ( talk) 20:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
it has already been granted that "romance epic" is acceptable too. Hint, you need to google for "romantic epic" (in quotes), not for +romantic +epic. sheesh.
note how Ariosto comes up right at the top in the proper seach for "romantic epic" on google books. Sheesh, it is pathetic how this has become just about being right. You are right in claiming that "romance epic" is fine too. You were wrong all along in claiming that use of "romantic epic" is wrong. So there. If it makes you happy, we can use "romance epic" (which I grant is less ambiguous) and move on. -- dab (𒁳) 21:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
really. So which does The Cambridge History of Italian Literature p. 243 fall under, "mistook what they said" or "not qualified in the area"? The upshot is that once it is clear that the context is 16th century Italian literature, there isn't the slightest problem with using "romantic", while it can be ambiguous if the context isn't clear. Oh wait, you've let us know that it is 'a minor use without any actual basis behind it.' Wow. Let's toss Cambridge, then, and turn to Ottava Rima instead from now on. Ottava, you may argue that it may be better to use "romance" for this reason, but your continued insistence that Folantin's sources are somehow invalid is really childish. If you think that Geogre is on your side, how about you just sit back and let Geogre talk to Folantin. I know both as erudite and reasonable, and I have no doubt they will have a consensus between them in five minutes. -- dab (𒁳) 16:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:CITE should be possible to grasp for everybody. We have references calling it a "romantic epic" and references calling it a "romance epic". The two terms in this context are exactly synonymous, and it is a matter open to discussion which we should prefer. Was any source cited that calls it a "Christian epic" on top of being a romance-tic one? If anyone is interested, the article could say "Fichter believes that even Ariosto's Orlando furioso is fundamentally a Christian epic" [5]. This is an opinion, and it amounts to OR to state such an opinion in Wikipedia's voice. Note the "even", which I submit would suggest that such a classification is far from obvious... Arguing that "the protagonists are Christian, hence it is a Christian epic" is silly, and the very definition of WP:SYN: on the same grounds, we could call it a "Frankish epic" and any number of other things. -- dab (𒁳) 19:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
wth, is there any point to this any more? You have been invited to change "romantic epic poem" to "romance epic poem" in the lead. You haven't done so. Are you here to improve articles, or just for a chat? If the above is your idea of a friendly chat, I don't wonder if you feel a bit lonely. Now can we please mind WP:TALK and stick to the point. If you want to do the "romance" edit, go ahead. If you don't, just drop it. If you want to discuss Fichter's or anyone else's opinions in detail, kindly edit the Orlando Furioso article. Thank you. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
“Romantic epic” is a perfectly respectable term, commonly and accurately applied to works such as Orlando Furioso. I see Prof. Zatti frequently invoked in the discussion above. He may be an authority on Italian epic, but he is certainly not an authority on the English language, which is the point at issue. His book on epic is translated “by Sally Hill with Dennis Looney”, so what is actually being invoked is their usage. Like many other scholars, C.S. Lewis uses the term, “romantic epic” e.g. in the Preface to Paradise Lost (where he speaks of “the romantic or chivalrous epic of Boiardo, Ariosto and Spenser”). Pedantry may be irritating but it's only useful when it is accurate. Not when it's used to create a mare’s nest. Ettormo ( talk) 20:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
This is not about "Christian epic" but in a way related to it. It makes sense to use this category for Dante Alighieri, Torquato Tasso and others who espressed in their works central concepts of Christian theology; but Ariosto - as far as I know - never did it. I suggest to cancel the attribution to this category. -- Broletto ( talk) 10:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This article has less number of citations kindly provide proper citations and try to improve article according to Wikipedia policies and if you allow my self I can certainly help you in expanding it. Thanks.-- Faizan Munawar Varya chat contributions 10:15, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ludovico Ariosto. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)