This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
The Genetics section refers to a paper discussing an Alamanni graveyard which supposedly contained one Longobard, one Frank and one Byzantine male. That claim is at least dubious. The archaeologists found one grave with Longobard grave goods, one with Frankish grave goods and one with Byzantine grave goods which is not the same thing, particularly since we know that the remains that were found in those graves were all directly related over three or four generations. The assumption that the grave goods indicate the burried person's ethnicity is but one hypothesis. Of course it could be that these grave goods were an indication for the origin on the mother's side of the three individuals (we know the fathers from DNA analysis of other remains in the graveyard, except for the individual with Frankish grave goods who was the oldest body there). But it could also be that the grave goods were simply precious items in possession of the family, or it could be that the individuals served in the respective armies (although the individual with Longobard grave goods was very young...maybe 14 years old, so it's unlikely he himself served with the Longobards). But given the fact that they were all directly related, calling one a Frank, one a Longobard and one a Byzantine sounds at the very least questionable, if not outright false.
The section of this article upon the Lombards currently puts forward that they were a pagan people, but no citation is given in support of this. Two paragraphs go into length about the paganism of the Lombards, yet not a single source to back up the claim. Thusly I am removing the section on paganism until such a time as sources may be cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.249.129 ( talk) 22:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
JHK It seem that someone got mixed up here with the names. Langobard =German =(Langbaerte: modern German) or English: Long Beards.
Lombards is the later Italian or Latin name for the Langobarden , after their land was taken and given to the pope (for Vatican city?)
I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "By the title of this work [Paul the Deacon's Historia Langobardorum] the name of Longobards was commonly turned into Langobards" - is it referred to English or Latin names? In any case, I believe "langobardi" was used before Paul. Also, I thought the ethimology from "long halberds" was dubious at best (and spurious at worst). Lastly, the article seems to imply that Charlemagne created the Papal States.
The original words used in primary source texts that refer to the Lombardic gens are not considered by serious scholars to translate into either 'long-beards' or 'long halberds'. Ref: J.S. Martin's "An examination of two Langobardic mythological texts" in 'Proceedings of the 11th International Saga Conference' for a summary of currently accepted opinion regarding those two alleged translations that scholars like W.D. Foulke and others thought might be plausible a century ago or even farther back in time.
If either of you have further questions about this matter, please feel free to send them to info@northvegr.org. ***Pádraic
I wish to know if anyone has explored the pretty straightforward possibility that "Langbaerte" or "Langobarden" is merely the corruption of "Långt Borta," which is swedish for "far away." I may be making an assumption, being less familiar with Old Norse than with Swedish, but the article does state that the lombards were scandinavian, and a scandinavian might reply to a questioning inhabitant of the region, on being asked where he came from, "I come from far away," or "Jag kommer ifrån Långt Borta." Pronounced in english this would sound like "Longgt bortá," wiht emphasis on the letter a. Joe
Naturally "Langobards" can't translate into "long halberds" (the halberd being a high medieval weapon). I have, however, read that it might translate into "long axes" (the -bard bit being from the same root as "halberd"). However, I doubt both the "axe" and the "beard" interpretation on the grounds that they wouldn't fit ancient Germanic society. Axes weren't used as actual military weapons before the 3rd/4th century AD (though they were used as ceremonial weapons). First-century Germani (about whom Tacitus was writing) fought essentially using a short spear (used in melee or as a javelin) or swords for rich people. Secondly, I doubt the "beard" interpretation (etymological arguments aside) because apparently shaving was all the rage in first-century Germania. I don't know what scholarly consensus is on the issue. Does anyone have a weblink? -- Helmold 21:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's another (amateur) idea of mine, probably far from the truth. In Old Norse "bord" or "bardi" means "shield" (from the same root as English "board", since Germanic shields were made from planks?). Thus the name Langobardi (or Langbardoz, or whatever the Germanic name might have been) might mean "long shields". In this case it would be a name given them by their neighbours, since apparently Germanic shields were usually round. Just speculation, though, I don't know the subject matter well enough. Can anyone point me to a good history of the Lombards? -- Helmold 18:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Please excuse me, gentlemen, but when the appproximate time that the Lombards became Italianate in culture(e.g. Italian-sounding names)?-- Anglius 17:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm no expert but as late as the 1070s the last lombard ruler Gisulf II of Salerno was still clinging on to power (though the rest of southern Italy was already ruled by Robert Guiscard and his relatives. He still has a very un-'Italian' name (it should be noted that Tuscan/Italian didn't yet exist in any recognisable form). Seek100 04:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I am awfully new to wikipedia but I have information about Lombards and im deciding to share it with you all. My mother's side of the family is from Guardia di Lombardi and my grandma told me a lombardian legend, which is often hard to come by. The legend goes that there is a road in Guardia di Lombardi where people would see a shadow figure appear next to. This shadow figure was not said to have hurt you, but tis simply a spooky story. I know it isn't much, but it is a very, very old legend. i was also told that lombardian women would wash there clothes in any springs that they have found and that the Lombards where very brutal thieves and killers. that is also how the name Guardia di Lombardi came to be, which basically translates to " Watch out for the Lombards". I know this isn't much information but it's not easy to come by so i thought i would share. do what you want with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BennyLombard ( talk • contribs) 03:23, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
"They left their mark also through such great figures as Hildeprand ( Pope Gregory VII) and Napoleon Bonaparte [1], who have Lombard names, being descendants of those cultured Mediterraneans who ruled the Mezzogiorno for three centuries citation needed"
The link provided is not solid enough for establishing that Napoleon is a Lombard name, nor is it proof enough that he is a descendant of the Lombards (it is only his first name, not his surname), especially considering that it mentions no specific Germanic tribe when, as we know, several of them invaded Italy well before his conception. Hildeprand's case is more compelling and I do not personally dispute that. However, I expect some more solid citations be provided or the wording changed to acknowledge the unsurity, and, such as is the case with Dante, I expect that these citations be lifted from somewhere other than white supremacist sites.
The Mezzogiorno is reffered to Southern Italy (does not include the island sicily, just the boot) and Napoleon was a Ligurian. So he came from a terretory of the Lombard Kingdom, not the Duchy of Benevento. The same goes for Gregory VII, who was from Tuscany (also Lombard kingdom)
Napoleon's Y-Dna is believed to be E1b (see Eupedia site Genetics section)which is North African or Balkan rather than anything Scandinavian or North German brought in by Langobards. Certain branches of R1a or I or R1b-U106 are much more typical of ancient Germanic peoples.
Maybe it would be relevant to add a link to Adelchi, the second tragedy by Alessandro Manzoni (a very relevant Italian author)
I think the 651 date is a typo: possibly 615? Agilulf shows up as King of the Lombards from 590 to 616, while Theodelinda's page says she died in 628. 165.127.8.254 20:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wetman 08:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) : most of my tweaks are obvious: for emphasis, clarity, eliminating repetitive links, unnecessary words, ADs, parentheses. I've commented out some questions most readers will ask and requested some citations. There are no References: I've made a References section.
The usage "Longobards" must have some personal magic. It seems obtrusively quaint.
The three-dimensional objects in museum cases are either personal photos or else from official museum sources, in which latter case they are not covered by this and would be copyrighted. -- Wetman 08:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The article introduces the Lombards by telling their own origin story. Then it passes to a section where an Elbe origin is flaunted with colourful maps and without attributing this information to any reliable source.-- Langobard 09:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
@Langobard, All the texts i posted are cited with the sources, where they are from. As for the maps, i only posted the 2 maps that were made by historians. The other 2 already existed on wikipedia. "Lombards by telling their own origin story" This story is the OGL (Origum Gentis Langobardorum), which is a mythical story about their mythical origins to their first historic King. Paul the Deacon is very valid and important for the History of the Lombards during their migration period, at the Danube and in Italy. But not for their origins. Paul made a big mistake when he based the Origins of the Lombards only and soly on the OGL. He never reffers to the Roman historians and their accounts, he took the OGL and nothing else. I should have posted (and after this confusion will post) the quotes of Mommsen about this mistake. The OGL cant be historic, because it states that Agilmund was the son of Agio (son of Gambara), but Agilmund was a king of the mid 4th Cen. AD. He is considered the first king because he led the migration and with that the independence. From the Romans we know that the Lombards were (till than) subject to the Kings of the Marcomanni and a small tribe. So if Agilmund is the son of Agio, than Agio and Ybor must have migrated around 300 AD from a mythical island that doesn't exist, and that Pliny the Elder upon who Paul accounts, describes as Thule. I think you know about Thule. But the Lombards are already recorded in the Lower Elbe lands in 5AD! So Agilmund cant be the son of Agio. And if you calculate the Kings down from Gudeoc (who entered noricum), than also you will pin point the mid 4th Cen. AD. (Lethu ruled 40 years according to paul). So everything makes sense, and is historically recorded when you consider the origins in the OGL as a myth and just a story. 2 Austrian archaeoligist and historians Peter Erhard and Walter Pohl wrote a good book about the lombard migration period and their archaeological traces. Lllo3
Yes, i agree, and that is why i did not post these things in the main article but instead posted them personally to you in the discussion section. As for your 3 points of criticism. 1. Well, if you would have read the Historia G. Langobardorum, you would have come to the passage where Agilmund is killed in a raid by Bulgars and his adoptive son Lamisso succeeded him and defeated the bulgars. After Lamisso, came Lethu who ruled for nearly 40 years and after that Hildeoc and Gudeoc. Than came Claffo and Tato the conquerer of the Heruli (Eruli). Now, i seriously doubt that such a scenario happened twice within the Lombard history. Also the episode of Agilmund being killed by Bulgars (maybe Huns) shows that the Lombards were already in a different area. The migration story goes that the Lombards crossed into Mauringa, Mauringa is mentioned by the Cosmographer of Ravenna as the land east of the Elbe. And Huns or Bulgars did not appear earlier than 340 AD. Again, Agilmund as the first king is due to the migration away from the other suevi tribes and their king. 2. No, the OGL cant be wrong, because its a legend. And therefor only ones interpretation of it, can be wrong. The origin in the OGL is a myth. Mommsen: "It may be that these Langobard and Gothic traditions are both fragments of a great legend of the origin of the whole German people..." (Thule). You obvisouly dont understand the essence of the Germanic tribes of the Great migration period. They were practically Nomadic. The Franks, Vandals, Goths, Langobards, Saxons etc. other german tribes migrated and lumped together and formed the Bavari or Alamanni. They all left their homes and created a Legend a myth about their former home, their mythical place of origin. Lllo3
We have an editor, User:Eochaid Airem, who takes issue with the following statement and has reverted it — as "POV" (sic):
The statement appears to be a neutral description merely setting early Lombards in a broad cultural context that is defined in archaeological terms. I can understand that Jastorff culture might be a misidentification that could be corrected, but I am at a loss as to what violates a neutral point-of-view. Perhaps this is just a weekend joker. -- Wetman 23:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has far too much unecassarily long quotes, I am sure they could be reviewd an irrelevant material removed while still retaining the pertinent information? Could someone more knowledgable in the area please have a look? Ciriii 00:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I very boldly reverted back several months to bypass some bad editing decisions and probably lost good information in the process. I added back some of it (like images, Jastorf culture, and sources), but there is more that needs to be done. However, I think this version is easier to fix than the previous one. Srnec 21:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
@Iamunknown I agreed with your point, about it being a quote farm, and wanted to change it. As for your point, that you couldnt get informed about the Longobards, well all you had to do was read. Because as you said, it was practically only quotes. So if you claim that the quotes of Paul the Deacon, Tacitus, Procobius, Paterculus and the various others couldnt inform you and were not informative (compared to that slobby article), than you obviously didnt read it. As for the images i only uplaoded 2. The roman campaign map and the Alboin image. And for all i care, they can stay deleted.
@Srnec (that means directed at) You are making points that arent valid, because they miss their targets by lenghts. 1. Be more precise, i really dont know about what POV you are talking about. 2. Bad quotations? Those were all quotations from historic sources, as they were all sourced. 3. Bad English? those sources, all came from an english source that translated the historic texts from Latin! You wont find a single mistake in those texts. You are a joke.
The current article is utter crap. It doesnt mention half of the Longobard history and what it does mention is partially false and slobby. (Origins and Conquest of ITALY) Inform yourself when ITALY was created! You call that article the quality of wikipedia? Ridiculous. Lllo3
@Iamunknown I have now read the Wikipedia:Attribution, maybe you should now read the edits i have made, because all of those mention their sources (Author, Title, Chapter, Page number) and all are valid and legitamate Primary and Secondary sources from propper published books. So, really read the edits I made.
@ Srnec "though it was prevalent a month ago." Those were not my edits. 1. So you think its unnecessary to mention all the quotes and historic refferences to and about the Longobards from 5AD onwards. The current article starts with the quotes of Tacitus in the Germania of 98 AD. So i think it is necessary to mention the early role and presence of the Longobards in a Longobard article. 2. My texts ended with the Murder of Alboin, everything beyond was not from me. I am very sure that there are no mistakes in the bits of texts i posted.
As for ITALY being a legitamate term, its not. Even the Romans termed it Peninsulae Italicae or just Italicae. The constant claim that the Roman province was called Italia, is simply wrong and is not mentioned as such in any historic source. It was called Italicae. But there are far more wrong infos in this article. I dont know if you understand, but several infos are simply wrong. "If the current article is "utter crap", clean it up" No, you are responsible for it so you should clean it up. You obviosly know alot about the Longobards (otherwise you wouldnt devote so much effort for the new article) so you can surly create a great or at least better article. Because the current article is a disgrace, because of the lack of information and that infos that are given are partially WRONG. You came up with false allegations about my edits (POV etc), and that to me was a joke. Lllo3
@Srnec The Latin source doesnt term the peninsula ITALIA but ITALIAE. Italicae (Peninsulae Italicae) is however the more common version (for examples) http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0h655r9uhw362g1/ http://image.slub-dresden.de/de/inc_txt/stok/LingItal.html http://www.mun.ca/alciato/017.html Its actually very simple, Italia is Italian and the Romans didnt speak that tuscan dialect, they spoke Latin, so they surly never used the word ITALIA. Italy is the english translation of the (tuscan) Italia. Also the term Lombards, its actually Longobards. In Italian: Longobardi, in Latin: Langobardorum and in German(incl. Old English): Langobarden. Lombards are the present day inhabitants of Lombardy and the descendents of the Longobards. The term Longobards is still very in use in the English language, many books on them refer to them as Longobards,in the english translation of the HGL, they are always referred to as Longobards and several other sources: http://asv.vatican.va/en/visit/p_nob/p_nob_3s_03.htm Besides that, many pages on wikipedia link to this article with the term Longobards. But those are just minor issues. The Article doesnt mention the whole 1st. Cen. AD and the role of the Longobards, the important fact that they were under the control of the Marcomannic Kings, crossing the danube 166 AD to raid pannonia, their migration, their first own kings, their various locations (all in the HGL), their move to Noricum and their feud with the Heruli, their conquest of the Herulic kingdom. Those are just a few points that need to be mentioned. I can just repeat myself, this article doesnt give alot of info, and the given info needs to be checked. Lllo3
@ Srnec First of all, stop asserting things about me. You obviously got lost in the dialogue. I was the one, that said that the term italian peninsula is more appropriate and correct than Italy. You, on the other hand claimed that italy is a legitamate term. It is not, and here is why. 1. Italy describes the modern day political state of italy. 2. By that you imply that the Lombards/Longobards conquered todays modern state in the 6th. Cen. AD. We can continue to discuss how the Romans called it and what the english translation is, and how close Italian is to Latin etc. etc. The point is, Italy cant be applied to that period, the correct term is Italian Peninsula. Furthermore, the Lombards/Longobards never conquered the Italian Peninsula they invaded it and conquered lands of it, which resulted in the 2 Duchies and the 1 Kingdom which were on the Italian Peninsula. But not all of the Peninsula was conquered by the Lombards/Longobards. So not only is the term Italy wrong, it is also very missleading. As for the terms Lombards/Longobards, in case you havent noticed, i am not making a big deal out of it. And you are once again lying when you claim that i posted, that the English Term Lombard is incorrect. I just wanted to point it out, for the sake of clarity, and you admitted yourself, that both terms are valid. I will repeat agian, those are just minor issues. Maybe you should start paying attention to the more important issues and start creating the article. Lllo3
The Lombards were a cultural group with cohesive linguistic and cultural allegiances...
Does anyone know what language(s) the Lombards spoke? fleela 02:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but Lombard, the Lombard I speak, is not a dialect of Italian!!! -- Aldedogn ( talk) 16:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Lmo administrator.
There is a theory that the modern Italian word "pizza" derives from the ancient Lombard word "pizzo" for "bite" (New High German "Bissen"), cf. Manlio Cortelazzo, Paolo Zolli: Dizionario etimologico della lingua italiana. Zanichelli, Bologna 1999, S. 1206 f. This is plausible insofar Germanic initial b changes to p in Lombard language (cf. banca -> panca), and t changes to "zz" in the Second (High German) Sound Shift, of which the Lombard language was affected. The original meaning of the word "pizza" could have been something like "a quick bite to eat" (cf. New High German "Imbiss" [ModE "snack"]).
I have removed the current top image twice in favour of another image for the following reasons:
In short, I cannot see that the old image has any real value. Srnec 19:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The Image has to be Removed: It doesn't show the Lombards/Langobards. It shows the Cisalpine Gauls during the sack of Rome 387 BC, in the famouse episode where a Gaul warrior touches the beard of an old Roman. The Old Roman hits him with a stick and is thus executed by the Gaul. @Srnec, the reasons you gave are idiotic. I accused you 2 months ago that you dont know anything about the Lomabrds/Langobards, and this again proves my point. Nonetheless you felt obliged to take responsibility for this article. I will take care of this article now, i have done alot of work, image wise, and will create an article on this topic. I hope that this time you will help with corrections and not with deletions. Lllo3
Does anybody have any better section headings than the nondescript "7th century" and "8th century"?
Srnec 04:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I do not deny that "Kingdom of Lombardy" is sometimes used to describe the Lombard kingdom, but it is usually avoided because it could cause confusion with the region of Lombardy (which was not coextensive with the Lombard kingdom) or the later Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia. "Kingdom of the Lombards", "Lombard kingdom", "Lombard kingdom of Italy", or just "Kingdom of Italy" are probably all better terms. The Latin would be regnum Langobardorum (Kingdom of the Lombards) or regnum Italicum (Italian kingdom). The Lombards did rule most of Italy from an early date and almost all of it from Liutprand's time. There is no confusion with the term "Kingdom of Italy". The term "Kingdom of Lombardy", furthermore, is not contemporaneous but is a rough translation of regnum Langobardorum (I think). The source provided is from 1847 and prima facie cannot be considered to pass WP:RS. I will alter the heading unless there is a good response here soon. Srnec ( talk) 17:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
even more King of LOMBARDS has been used for Bernabò Visconti and Gian Galeazzo Visconti, not because they were King of LOMBARDS, but becuase they would have been King of LOMBARDS, and Lombard/Lombardy was used until 1860 meaning north italy or Padany. Don't forget that a Giuseppe Verdi's opera is called "I Lombardi alla prima crociata" Lombards go the first Crusade, and with Lombards he told abaout all north italians or padanians and not only about who lives in the actual Lombardy region. I'm sure because at that time there is not the actual Lombardy region!!!!
-- Aldedogn ( talk) 16:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Lmo administrator
what does philo-Catholic mean? is it common knowledge? 68.161.205.226 ( talk) 03:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
From the text of the article:
"In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons[50]) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy due to their expulsion from Pannonia by Avars."
Can this figure be correct? This is a HUGE population movement. Are there any detailed descriptions of it in the historical record?
76.234.120.236 ( talk) 14:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)Daniel Baedeker
Section "Kingdom in Italy" begins with statement: In 560 a new, energetic king emerged: Alboin, who defeated the neighbouring Gepidae, made them his subjects, and, in 566, married the daughter of their king Cunimund, Rosamund. - this is not completely true. The Gepides and Lombards were the enemies from the moment when Lombards came to Pannonia which had been already settled by the Gepides. But real conflict and war started because of Rosamund. Alboin captured Rosamund, which caused real war and 2 sides dragged the others around into conflict too (Lombards as the allies of Eastern Roman Empire). The Gepides won one of the battles and their king brought his daughter Rosamund back home, but war ended with final defeat and destruction of Gepides, their king was muredered by Alboin himself and Rosamund was captured again. However, Gepides didn't become his subjects. Both sides were weak at the end of war. Gepides never had their own king again and were broken into small groups; Lombards won the war as Eastern Roman Emperor allies, but this emperor didn't reward them, they didn't get the land of the Gepides. That was probably one of the reasons why they left to Italy. Maybe there's no need to include all story, but details should be fixed. Zenanarh ( talk) 14:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
The last to be crowned with the Iron Crown was Emperor Ferdinand I in his role as King of Lombardy and Venetia. This occurred in Milan on September 6, 1838. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.68.77 ( talk) 12:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
"The Iron Crown of Lombardy, used for the coronation of the kings of Italy until 1836."
The "kings of Italy" until 1836 ??? Which kings would those be ? When was the last "king of italy", before c. 1860 ? Eregli bob ( talk) 14:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
It's nice to have all the vowel quantities and accents marked, but that's not the way to write Latin. If you want, add in phonetic spellings in parentheses. I'm going to remove these, barring some valid objection. - Eponymous-Archon ( talk) 20:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lombards. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:44, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
13 references to 11 sources in English. 33 (14) for medieval sources. 46 (16) in German. 3 in Swedish. 2 in Italian. 1 Slovene. 3 undeterminded.
References let the reader read more about the detail she found interesting and to verify it. Scaring other editors (who could claim that a factoid - wrong or obvious or both at once! - is "unsourced") off is also an important task. But this task is of secondary importance! Multiple references in German perform the latter task very well.. ...but for the majority of readers who can't read in German the article is unsourced!
Meanwhile the list of references appears extensive, scary and messy. Two books (Karin Priester, Geschichte der Langobarden and Wilifred Menghin, Die Langobarden. Geschichte und Archäologie) are referenced 21 times. "Archäologie" sounds interesting, the article could benefit from it. But all the references to both are to the introductory chapters. I like references in German, but if the sole purpose of references is avoiding criticism (a possible explanation for "introductions only") and actual contribution of German and Italian scholars is ignored... It is like having dozens references to Britannica.-- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 11:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Currently Historia Langobardorum is referenced as: "PD", "HGL", "Hist. gent. Lang.", "Peters, Edward (2003). History of the Lombards: Translated by William Dudley Foulke....", "Ibid.", "Paolo Diacono, Historia Langobardorum". It hasn't been refrenced as "Pauli Warnefridi Diaconi De Gestis Langobardorum" yet, but I'm sure someone will call it this way. I'm going to restructurize the references. 1) Put the "bibliography" in chronological order, perhaps even with "in German" and "in English" subsections. Tacitus is not the same as a 19 century book. 19th century book is public domain and dated. A modern book is less dated but it is less accessible as well (you need a good library, for artilcles you contact the authors or use sci-hub). In its current form "bibliogrpahy" is not very convenient for its "further reading" purpose, as for rerefencing, date is just as good as authors name. -- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
2) separate classical and medieval references from modern scholars. "References" look confusing at the moment. This way people won't call Historia Langobardorum "HGL" here and "PD" there. And it will be clear that this article has just a few modern references. -- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
3) I also want to change the style of references from [1] and [2] to something like [3]: 49 . I don't like the page numbers in the text, but I would love to group Menghin 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and Priester 14, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 21-22 (overall 10 Priesters and 11 Menghins) together. If what is referenced is very basic facts (pages "14-22" make you think so), I'd love to see references to more accessible sources. But why would people add more sources? There are already so many refs! It look like the article has 79 refs. In reality two books in German by Priester and Menghin (introductory chapters to them) are the modern sources. My idea is making the idea of adding more references look more attractive to editors.
Also making citations not so short. Because there are citations like "Rovagnati, p. 99." Who's Rovagnati? She/he is not in the bibliography. What is "FV, II, 4, 6, 7."?-- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
In the lede we have: "(Latin: Langobardi)", which seems to imply by its position and form that the name comes from Latin. However, in the section 'Legendary origins and name', it is clear that the name originates in Germanic mythology and language, and that the Latin form has been Latiinised from the Germanic original. This information should be more clearly reflected in the lede. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 03:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Keep in mind (1) Latin is a real written language we can quote, while we have virtually no written Lombard or other contemporary Germanic spelling of the name. This point is relevant to the first sentence, where we put spelling variations. Reconstructed languages would not go there without extra explanation. (2) There is already discussion of the name in one of the first sections of the article. So we should be careful not to duplicate. Possibly there needs to be some moving around of material. I see the water has been somewhat muddied by discussion of a theory related to Odin. Some readers may be led to believe that this theory is in conflict with the normal etymology, which I do not think it is. (It would still mean "long beards").-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
While there is a valid scholarly debate about whether we might be able to use bits of Paul the Deacon (or Jordanes who he seems to imitate, including concerning Scandinavia, the "womb of nations"), we need to report that debate, and we certainly shouldn't be assuming everything he says to be correct, right from the opening. The whole article is structured around him. This will eventually need to be changed.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:55, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
The Genetics section refers to a paper discussing an Alamanni graveyard which supposedly contained one Longobard, one Frank and one Byzantine male. That claim is at least dubious. The archaeologists found one grave with Longobard grave goods, one with Frankish grave goods and one with Byzantine grave goods which is not the same thing, particularly since we know that the remains that were found in those graves were all directly related over three or four generations. The assumption that the grave goods indicate the burried person's ethnicity is but one hypothesis. Of course it could be that these grave goods were an indication for the origin on the mother's side of the three individuals (we know the fathers from DNA analysis of other remains in the graveyard, except for the individual with Frankish grave goods who was the oldest body there). But it could also be that the grave goods were simply precious items in possession of the family, or it could be that the individuals served in the respective armies (although the individual with Longobard grave goods was very young...maybe 14 years old, so it's unlikely he himself served with the Longobards). But given the fact that they were all directly related, calling one a Frank, one a Longobard and one a Byzantine sounds at the very least questionable, if not outright false.
The section of this article upon the Lombards currently puts forward that they were a pagan people, but no citation is given in support of this. Two paragraphs go into length about the paganism of the Lombards, yet not a single source to back up the claim. Thusly I am removing the section on paganism until such a time as sources may be cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.249.129 ( talk) 22:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
JHK It seem that someone got mixed up here with the names. Langobard =German =(Langbaerte: modern German) or English: Long Beards.
Lombards is the later Italian or Latin name for the Langobarden , after their land was taken and given to the pope (for Vatican city?)
I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "By the title of this work [Paul the Deacon's Historia Langobardorum] the name of Longobards was commonly turned into Langobards" - is it referred to English or Latin names? In any case, I believe "langobardi" was used before Paul. Also, I thought the ethimology from "long halberds" was dubious at best (and spurious at worst). Lastly, the article seems to imply that Charlemagne created the Papal States.
The original words used in primary source texts that refer to the Lombardic gens are not considered by serious scholars to translate into either 'long-beards' or 'long halberds'. Ref: J.S. Martin's "An examination of two Langobardic mythological texts" in 'Proceedings of the 11th International Saga Conference' for a summary of currently accepted opinion regarding those two alleged translations that scholars like W.D. Foulke and others thought might be plausible a century ago or even farther back in time.
If either of you have further questions about this matter, please feel free to send them to info@northvegr.org. ***Pádraic
I wish to know if anyone has explored the pretty straightforward possibility that "Langbaerte" or "Langobarden" is merely the corruption of "Långt Borta," which is swedish for "far away." I may be making an assumption, being less familiar with Old Norse than with Swedish, but the article does state that the lombards were scandinavian, and a scandinavian might reply to a questioning inhabitant of the region, on being asked where he came from, "I come from far away," or "Jag kommer ifrån Långt Borta." Pronounced in english this would sound like "Longgt bortá," wiht emphasis on the letter a. Joe
Naturally "Langobards" can't translate into "long halberds" (the halberd being a high medieval weapon). I have, however, read that it might translate into "long axes" (the -bard bit being from the same root as "halberd"). However, I doubt both the "axe" and the "beard" interpretation on the grounds that they wouldn't fit ancient Germanic society. Axes weren't used as actual military weapons before the 3rd/4th century AD (though they were used as ceremonial weapons). First-century Germani (about whom Tacitus was writing) fought essentially using a short spear (used in melee or as a javelin) or swords for rich people. Secondly, I doubt the "beard" interpretation (etymological arguments aside) because apparently shaving was all the rage in first-century Germania. I don't know what scholarly consensus is on the issue. Does anyone have a weblink? -- Helmold 21:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's another (amateur) idea of mine, probably far from the truth. In Old Norse "bord" or "bardi" means "shield" (from the same root as English "board", since Germanic shields were made from planks?). Thus the name Langobardi (or Langbardoz, or whatever the Germanic name might have been) might mean "long shields". In this case it would be a name given them by their neighbours, since apparently Germanic shields were usually round. Just speculation, though, I don't know the subject matter well enough. Can anyone point me to a good history of the Lombards? -- Helmold 18:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Please excuse me, gentlemen, but when the appproximate time that the Lombards became Italianate in culture(e.g. Italian-sounding names)?-- Anglius 17:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm no expert but as late as the 1070s the last lombard ruler Gisulf II of Salerno was still clinging on to power (though the rest of southern Italy was already ruled by Robert Guiscard and his relatives. He still has a very un-'Italian' name (it should be noted that Tuscan/Italian didn't yet exist in any recognisable form). Seek100 04:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I am awfully new to wikipedia but I have information about Lombards and im deciding to share it with you all. My mother's side of the family is from Guardia di Lombardi and my grandma told me a lombardian legend, which is often hard to come by. The legend goes that there is a road in Guardia di Lombardi where people would see a shadow figure appear next to. This shadow figure was not said to have hurt you, but tis simply a spooky story. I know it isn't much, but it is a very, very old legend. i was also told that lombardian women would wash there clothes in any springs that they have found and that the Lombards where very brutal thieves and killers. that is also how the name Guardia di Lombardi came to be, which basically translates to " Watch out for the Lombards". I know this isn't much information but it's not easy to come by so i thought i would share. do what you want with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BennyLombard ( talk • contribs) 03:23, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
"They left their mark also through such great figures as Hildeprand ( Pope Gregory VII) and Napoleon Bonaparte [1], who have Lombard names, being descendants of those cultured Mediterraneans who ruled the Mezzogiorno for three centuries citation needed"
The link provided is not solid enough for establishing that Napoleon is a Lombard name, nor is it proof enough that he is a descendant of the Lombards (it is only his first name, not his surname), especially considering that it mentions no specific Germanic tribe when, as we know, several of them invaded Italy well before his conception. Hildeprand's case is more compelling and I do not personally dispute that. However, I expect some more solid citations be provided or the wording changed to acknowledge the unsurity, and, such as is the case with Dante, I expect that these citations be lifted from somewhere other than white supremacist sites.
The Mezzogiorno is reffered to Southern Italy (does not include the island sicily, just the boot) and Napoleon was a Ligurian. So he came from a terretory of the Lombard Kingdom, not the Duchy of Benevento. The same goes for Gregory VII, who was from Tuscany (also Lombard kingdom)
Napoleon's Y-Dna is believed to be E1b (see Eupedia site Genetics section)which is North African or Balkan rather than anything Scandinavian or North German brought in by Langobards. Certain branches of R1a or I or R1b-U106 are much more typical of ancient Germanic peoples.
Maybe it would be relevant to add a link to Adelchi, the second tragedy by Alessandro Manzoni (a very relevant Italian author)
I think the 651 date is a typo: possibly 615? Agilulf shows up as King of the Lombards from 590 to 616, while Theodelinda's page says she died in 628. 165.127.8.254 20:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wetman 08:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) : most of my tweaks are obvious: for emphasis, clarity, eliminating repetitive links, unnecessary words, ADs, parentheses. I've commented out some questions most readers will ask and requested some citations. There are no References: I've made a References section.
The usage "Longobards" must have some personal magic. It seems obtrusively quaint.
The three-dimensional objects in museum cases are either personal photos or else from official museum sources, in which latter case they are not covered by this and would be copyrighted. -- Wetman 08:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The article introduces the Lombards by telling their own origin story. Then it passes to a section where an Elbe origin is flaunted with colourful maps and without attributing this information to any reliable source.-- Langobard 09:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
@Langobard, All the texts i posted are cited with the sources, where they are from. As for the maps, i only posted the 2 maps that were made by historians. The other 2 already existed on wikipedia. "Lombards by telling their own origin story" This story is the OGL (Origum Gentis Langobardorum), which is a mythical story about their mythical origins to their first historic King. Paul the Deacon is very valid and important for the History of the Lombards during their migration period, at the Danube and in Italy. But not for their origins. Paul made a big mistake when he based the Origins of the Lombards only and soly on the OGL. He never reffers to the Roman historians and their accounts, he took the OGL and nothing else. I should have posted (and after this confusion will post) the quotes of Mommsen about this mistake. The OGL cant be historic, because it states that Agilmund was the son of Agio (son of Gambara), but Agilmund was a king of the mid 4th Cen. AD. He is considered the first king because he led the migration and with that the independence. From the Romans we know that the Lombards were (till than) subject to the Kings of the Marcomanni and a small tribe. So if Agilmund is the son of Agio, than Agio and Ybor must have migrated around 300 AD from a mythical island that doesn't exist, and that Pliny the Elder upon who Paul accounts, describes as Thule. I think you know about Thule. But the Lombards are already recorded in the Lower Elbe lands in 5AD! So Agilmund cant be the son of Agio. And if you calculate the Kings down from Gudeoc (who entered noricum), than also you will pin point the mid 4th Cen. AD. (Lethu ruled 40 years according to paul). So everything makes sense, and is historically recorded when you consider the origins in the OGL as a myth and just a story. 2 Austrian archaeoligist and historians Peter Erhard and Walter Pohl wrote a good book about the lombard migration period and their archaeological traces. Lllo3
Yes, i agree, and that is why i did not post these things in the main article but instead posted them personally to you in the discussion section. As for your 3 points of criticism. 1. Well, if you would have read the Historia G. Langobardorum, you would have come to the passage where Agilmund is killed in a raid by Bulgars and his adoptive son Lamisso succeeded him and defeated the bulgars. After Lamisso, came Lethu who ruled for nearly 40 years and after that Hildeoc and Gudeoc. Than came Claffo and Tato the conquerer of the Heruli (Eruli). Now, i seriously doubt that such a scenario happened twice within the Lombard history. Also the episode of Agilmund being killed by Bulgars (maybe Huns) shows that the Lombards were already in a different area. The migration story goes that the Lombards crossed into Mauringa, Mauringa is mentioned by the Cosmographer of Ravenna as the land east of the Elbe. And Huns or Bulgars did not appear earlier than 340 AD. Again, Agilmund as the first king is due to the migration away from the other suevi tribes and their king. 2. No, the OGL cant be wrong, because its a legend. And therefor only ones interpretation of it, can be wrong. The origin in the OGL is a myth. Mommsen: "It may be that these Langobard and Gothic traditions are both fragments of a great legend of the origin of the whole German people..." (Thule). You obvisouly dont understand the essence of the Germanic tribes of the Great migration period. They were practically Nomadic. The Franks, Vandals, Goths, Langobards, Saxons etc. other german tribes migrated and lumped together and formed the Bavari or Alamanni. They all left their homes and created a Legend a myth about their former home, their mythical place of origin. Lllo3
We have an editor, User:Eochaid Airem, who takes issue with the following statement and has reverted it — as "POV" (sic):
The statement appears to be a neutral description merely setting early Lombards in a broad cultural context that is defined in archaeological terms. I can understand that Jastorff culture might be a misidentification that could be corrected, but I am at a loss as to what violates a neutral point-of-view. Perhaps this is just a weekend joker. -- Wetman 23:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has far too much unecassarily long quotes, I am sure they could be reviewd an irrelevant material removed while still retaining the pertinent information? Could someone more knowledgable in the area please have a look? Ciriii 00:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I very boldly reverted back several months to bypass some bad editing decisions and probably lost good information in the process. I added back some of it (like images, Jastorf culture, and sources), but there is more that needs to be done. However, I think this version is easier to fix than the previous one. Srnec 21:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
@Iamunknown I agreed with your point, about it being a quote farm, and wanted to change it. As for your point, that you couldnt get informed about the Longobards, well all you had to do was read. Because as you said, it was practically only quotes. So if you claim that the quotes of Paul the Deacon, Tacitus, Procobius, Paterculus and the various others couldnt inform you and were not informative (compared to that slobby article), than you obviously didnt read it. As for the images i only uplaoded 2. The roman campaign map and the Alboin image. And for all i care, they can stay deleted.
@Srnec (that means directed at) You are making points that arent valid, because they miss their targets by lenghts. 1. Be more precise, i really dont know about what POV you are talking about. 2. Bad quotations? Those were all quotations from historic sources, as they were all sourced. 3. Bad English? those sources, all came from an english source that translated the historic texts from Latin! You wont find a single mistake in those texts. You are a joke.
The current article is utter crap. It doesnt mention half of the Longobard history and what it does mention is partially false and slobby. (Origins and Conquest of ITALY) Inform yourself when ITALY was created! You call that article the quality of wikipedia? Ridiculous. Lllo3
@Iamunknown I have now read the Wikipedia:Attribution, maybe you should now read the edits i have made, because all of those mention their sources (Author, Title, Chapter, Page number) and all are valid and legitamate Primary and Secondary sources from propper published books. So, really read the edits I made.
@ Srnec "though it was prevalent a month ago." Those were not my edits. 1. So you think its unnecessary to mention all the quotes and historic refferences to and about the Longobards from 5AD onwards. The current article starts with the quotes of Tacitus in the Germania of 98 AD. So i think it is necessary to mention the early role and presence of the Longobards in a Longobard article. 2. My texts ended with the Murder of Alboin, everything beyond was not from me. I am very sure that there are no mistakes in the bits of texts i posted.
As for ITALY being a legitamate term, its not. Even the Romans termed it Peninsulae Italicae or just Italicae. The constant claim that the Roman province was called Italia, is simply wrong and is not mentioned as such in any historic source. It was called Italicae. But there are far more wrong infos in this article. I dont know if you understand, but several infos are simply wrong. "If the current article is "utter crap", clean it up" No, you are responsible for it so you should clean it up. You obviosly know alot about the Longobards (otherwise you wouldnt devote so much effort for the new article) so you can surly create a great or at least better article. Because the current article is a disgrace, because of the lack of information and that infos that are given are partially WRONG. You came up with false allegations about my edits (POV etc), and that to me was a joke. Lllo3
@Srnec The Latin source doesnt term the peninsula ITALIA but ITALIAE. Italicae (Peninsulae Italicae) is however the more common version (for examples) http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0h655r9uhw362g1/ http://image.slub-dresden.de/de/inc_txt/stok/LingItal.html http://www.mun.ca/alciato/017.html Its actually very simple, Italia is Italian and the Romans didnt speak that tuscan dialect, they spoke Latin, so they surly never used the word ITALIA. Italy is the english translation of the (tuscan) Italia. Also the term Lombards, its actually Longobards. In Italian: Longobardi, in Latin: Langobardorum and in German(incl. Old English): Langobarden. Lombards are the present day inhabitants of Lombardy and the descendents of the Longobards. The term Longobards is still very in use in the English language, many books on them refer to them as Longobards,in the english translation of the HGL, they are always referred to as Longobards and several other sources: http://asv.vatican.va/en/visit/p_nob/p_nob_3s_03.htm Besides that, many pages on wikipedia link to this article with the term Longobards. But those are just minor issues. The Article doesnt mention the whole 1st. Cen. AD and the role of the Longobards, the important fact that they were under the control of the Marcomannic Kings, crossing the danube 166 AD to raid pannonia, their migration, their first own kings, their various locations (all in the HGL), their move to Noricum and their feud with the Heruli, their conquest of the Herulic kingdom. Those are just a few points that need to be mentioned. I can just repeat myself, this article doesnt give alot of info, and the given info needs to be checked. Lllo3
@ Srnec First of all, stop asserting things about me. You obviously got lost in the dialogue. I was the one, that said that the term italian peninsula is more appropriate and correct than Italy. You, on the other hand claimed that italy is a legitamate term. It is not, and here is why. 1. Italy describes the modern day political state of italy. 2. By that you imply that the Lombards/Longobards conquered todays modern state in the 6th. Cen. AD. We can continue to discuss how the Romans called it and what the english translation is, and how close Italian is to Latin etc. etc. The point is, Italy cant be applied to that period, the correct term is Italian Peninsula. Furthermore, the Lombards/Longobards never conquered the Italian Peninsula they invaded it and conquered lands of it, which resulted in the 2 Duchies and the 1 Kingdom which were on the Italian Peninsula. But not all of the Peninsula was conquered by the Lombards/Longobards. So not only is the term Italy wrong, it is also very missleading. As for the terms Lombards/Longobards, in case you havent noticed, i am not making a big deal out of it. And you are once again lying when you claim that i posted, that the English Term Lombard is incorrect. I just wanted to point it out, for the sake of clarity, and you admitted yourself, that both terms are valid. I will repeat agian, those are just minor issues. Maybe you should start paying attention to the more important issues and start creating the article. Lllo3
The Lombards were a cultural group with cohesive linguistic and cultural allegiances...
Does anyone know what language(s) the Lombards spoke? fleela 02:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but Lombard, the Lombard I speak, is not a dialect of Italian!!! -- Aldedogn ( talk) 16:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Lmo administrator.
There is a theory that the modern Italian word "pizza" derives from the ancient Lombard word "pizzo" for "bite" (New High German "Bissen"), cf. Manlio Cortelazzo, Paolo Zolli: Dizionario etimologico della lingua italiana. Zanichelli, Bologna 1999, S. 1206 f. This is plausible insofar Germanic initial b changes to p in Lombard language (cf. banca -> panca), and t changes to "zz" in the Second (High German) Sound Shift, of which the Lombard language was affected. The original meaning of the word "pizza" could have been something like "a quick bite to eat" (cf. New High German "Imbiss" [ModE "snack"]).
I have removed the current top image twice in favour of another image for the following reasons:
In short, I cannot see that the old image has any real value. Srnec 19:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The Image has to be Removed: It doesn't show the Lombards/Langobards. It shows the Cisalpine Gauls during the sack of Rome 387 BC, in the famouse episode where a Gaul warrior touches the beard of an old Roman. The Old Roman hits him with a stick and is thus executed by the Gaul. @Srnec, the reasons you gave are idiotic. I accused you 2 months ago that you dont know anything about the Lomabrds/Langobards, and this again proves my point. Nonetheless you felt obliged to take responsibility for this article. I will take care of this article now, i have done alot of work, image wise, and will create an article on this topic. I hope that this time you will help with corrections and not with deletions. Lllo3
Does anybody have any better section headings than the nondescript "7th century" and "8th century"?
Srnec 04:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I do not deny that "Kingdom of Lombardy" is sometimes used to describe the Lombard kingdom, but it is usually avoided because it could cause confusion with the region of Lombardy (which was not coextensive with the Lombard kingdom) or the later Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia. "Kingdom of the Lombards", "Lombard kingdom", "Lombard kingdom of Italy", or just "Kingdom of Italy" are probably all better terms. The Latin would be regnum Langobardorum (Kingdom of the Lombards) or regnum Italicum (Italian kingdom). The Lombards did rule most of Italy from an early date and almost all of it from Liutprand's time. There is no confusion with the term "Kingdom of Italy". The term "Kingdom of Lombardy", furthermore, is not contemporaneous but is a rough translation of regnum Langobardorum (I think). The source provided is from 1847 and prima facie cannot be considered to pass WP:RS. I will alter the heading unless there is a good response here soon. Srnec ( talk) 17:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
even more King of LOMBARDS has been used for Bernabò Visconti and Gian Galeazzo Visconti, not because they were King of LOMBARDS, but becuase they would have been King of LOMBARDS, and Lombard/Lombardy was used until 1860 meaning north italy or Padany. Don't forget that a Giuseppe Verdi's opera is called "I Lombardi alla prima crociata" Lombards go the first Crusade, and with Lombards he told abaout all north italians or padanians and not only about who lives in the actual Lombardy region. I'm sure because at that time there is not the actual Lombardy region!!!!
-- Aldedogn ( talk) 16:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Lmo administrator
what does philo-Catholic mean? is it common knowledge? 68.161.205.226 ( talk) 03:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
From the text of the article:
"In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons[50]) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy due to their expulsion from Pannonia by Avars."
Can this figure be correct? This is a HUGE population movement. Are there any detailed descriptions of it in the historical record?
76.234.120.236 ( talk) 14:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)Daniel Baedeker
Section "Kingdom in Italy" begins with statement: In 560 a new, energetic king emerged: Alboin, who defeated the neighbouring Gepidae, made them his subjects, and, in 566, married the daughter of their king Cunimund, Rosamund. - this is not completely true. The Gepides and Lombards were the enemies from the moment when Lombards came to Pannonia which had been already settled by the Gepides. But real conflict and war started because of Rosamund. Alboin captured Rosamund, which caused real war and 2 sides dragged the others around into conflict too (Lombards as the allies of Eastern Roman Empire). The Gepides won one of the battles and their king brought his daughter Rosamund back home, but war ended with final defeat and destruction of Gepides, their king was muredered by Alboin himself and Rosamund was captured again. However, Gepides didn't become his subjects. Both sides were weak at the end of war. Gepides never had their own king again and were broken into small groups; Lombards won the war as Eastern Roman Emperor allies, but this emperor didn't reward them, they didn't get the land of the Gepides. That was probably one of the reasons why they left to Italy. Maybe there's no need to include all story, but details should be fixed. Zenanarh ( talk) 14:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
The last to be crowned with the Iron Crown was Emperor Ferdinand I in his role as King of Lombardy and Venetia. This occurred in Milan on September 6, 1838. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.68.77 ( talk) 12:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
"The Iron Crown of Lombardy, used for the coronation of the kings of Italy until 1836."
The "kings of Italy" until 1836 ??? Which kings would those be ? When was the last "king of italy", before c. 1860 ? Eregli bob ( talk) 14:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
It's nice to have all the vowel quantities and accents marked, but that's not the way to write Latin. If you want, add in phonetic spellings in parentheses. I'm going to remove these, barring some valid objection. - Eponymous-Archon ( talk) 20:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lombards. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:44, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
13 references to 11 sources in English. 33 (14) for medieval sources. 46 (16) in German. 3 in Swedish. 2 in Italian. 1 Slovene. 3 undeterminded.
References let the reader read more about the detail she found interesting and to verify it. Scaring other editors (who could claim that a factoid - wrong or obvious or both at once! - is "unsourced") off is also an important task. But this task is of secondary importance! Multiple references in German perform the latter task very well.. ...but for the majority of readers who can't read in German the article is unsourced!
Meanwhile the list of references appears extensive, scary and messy. Two books (Karin Priester, Geschichte der Langobarden and Wilifred Menghin, Die Langobarden. Geschichte und Archäologie) are referenced 21 times. "Archäologie" sounds interesting, the article could benefit from it. But all the references to both are to the introductory chapters. I like references in German, but if the sole purpose of references is avoiding criticism (a possible explanation for "introductions only") and actual contribution of German and Italian scholars is ignored... It is like having dozens references to Britannica.-- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 11:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Currently Historia Langobardorum is referenced as: "PD", "HGL", "Hist. gent. Lang.", "Peters, Edward (2003). History of the Lombards: Translated by William Dudley Foulke....", "Ibid.", "Paolo Diacono, Historia Langobardorum". It hasn't been refrenced as "Pauli Warnefridi Diaconi De Gestis Langobardorum" yet, but I'm sure someone will call it this way. I'm going to restructurize the references. 1) Put the "bibliography" in chronological order, perhaps even with "in German" and "in English" subsections. Tacitus is not the same as a 19 century book. 19th century book is public domain and dated. A modern book is less dated but it is less accessible as well (you need a good library, for artilcles you contact the authors or use sci-hub). In its current form "bibliogrpahy" is not very convenient for its "further reading" purpose, as for rerefencing, date is just as good as authors name. -- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
2) separate classical and medieval references from modern scholars. "References" look confusing at the moment. This way people won't call Historia Langobardorum "HGL" here and "PD" there. And it will be clear that this article has just a few modern references. -- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
3) I also want to change the style of references from [1] and [2] to something like [3]: 49 . I don't like the page numbers in the text, but I would love to group Menghin 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and Priester 14, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 21-22 (overall 10 Priesters and 11 Menghins) together. If what is referenced is very basic facts (pages "14-22" make you think so), I'd love to see references to more accessible sources. But why would people add more sources? There are already so many refs! It look like the article has 79 refs. In reality two books in German by Priester and Menghin (introductory chapters to them) are the modern sources. My idea is making the idea of adding more references look more attractive to editors.
Also making citations not so short. Because there are citations like "Rovagnati, p. 99." Who's Rovagnati? She/he is not in the bibliography. What is "FV, II, 4, 6, 7."?-- 90.154.72.166 ( talk) 08:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
In the lede we have: "(Latin: Langobardi)", which seems to imply by its position and form that the name comes from Latin. However, in the section 'Legendary origins and name', it is clear that the name originates in Germanic mythology and language, and that the Latin form has been Latiinised from the Germanic original. This information should be more clearly reflected in the lede. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 03:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Keep in mind (1) Latin is a real written language we can quote, while we have virtually no written Lombard or other contemporary Germanic spelling of the name. This point is relevant to the first sentence, where we put spelling variations. Reconstructed languages would not go there without extra explanation. (2) There is already discussion of the name in one of the first sections of the article. So we should be careful not to duplicate. Possibly there needs to be some moving around of material. I see the water has been somewhat muddied by discussion of a theory related to Odin. Some readers may be led to believe that this theory is in conflict with the normal etymology, which I do not think it is. (It would still mean "long beards").-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
While there is a valid scholarly debate about whether we might be able to use bits of Paul the Deacon (or Jordanes who he seems to imitate, including concerning Scandinavia, the "womb of nations"), we need to report that debate, and we certainly shouldn't be assuming everything he says to be correct, right from the opening. The whole article is structured around him. This will eventually need to be changed.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:55, 14 February 2020 (UTC)