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I don't understand, how do you have the right to Slovakize people, like Mednyászky László or Thököly Imre. They just lived in the former North Hungary as all the Slovaks did. If somebody lived/lives in the today's territory of Slovakia (finalized in 1947) is automatically a Slovak?
Maximilian Hell was one of dozens of astronomers who observed the 1769 transit of Venus from various parts of the globe. Their collective efforts at this transit (and the previous one in 1761) led to a determination of the parallax and the distance to the Sun. Note the parallax method, by definition, requires at least two separate observations at widely separated points, so it is impossible to single-handedly determine a parallax. Also, it is not accurate to say he was "one of the greatest" astronomers of the 18th century. Not to diminish him in any way, but a quite a few other 18th century astronomers have a considerably greater claim to fame. Curps 01:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes. See the article at Transit of Venus, and the Economist article linked to at the bottom of that page. Maximilian Hell was one of many distinguished scientists who participated in the first international scientific collaboration, going on expeditions to observe the transits of Venus in 1761 and 1769 from as many different parts of the world as possible, in order to determine the Sun's parallax and thereby determine its distance. They all made their observations on the same day (the day of the transit), and the data was collected together to come up with the result. The original wording in the article made it seem as if Maximilian Hell did all this by himself.
I would guess that your source article was not written by an astronomer, so the person did not get the details exactly right. By the way, the next transit of Venus is in only five days (June 8), and it's the first one since 1882. There might be stories about it in the newspaper. Curps 18:35, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
IMHO, Slovak poetry page should be about *Slovak poetry*, not about poets who might be (controversially) considered Slovaks, but who did not wrote a signle line of Slovak in their life. rado 12:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have hoped someone would express this opinion. You can delete him. (I just did not want another edit war) ... Juro 15:52, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am surprized by the amount of Slovak saints. Actually, there should be only one saint, who is certain to be a Slovak, and that is St. Gorazd. The martyrs of Košice (Pongratz, Krizhin, Grodziecki) were not Slovaks.
For obvious reasons, all the lists of Slovaks etc. in the Wikipedia are no lists of strictly ethnic Slovaks etc. only and this one is no exception... Juro 23:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but how do you define Slovaks then? Since the ethnic composition in territory of present-day Slovakia was much more diverse over the centuries (besides Slavs who may or may not be referred to as Slovaks during the Middle Ages, Hungarians and Germans (Zipsers) gave a fundamental contribution to the cultural landscape of today's Slovakia. In my humble opinion (ethnic identity was a tricky thing in the Middle Ages and the population in the former Kingdom of Hungary shared a common "hungarus" national consciousness), the most important criteria for identifying a person as a "famous Slovak" are the following: 1. Did the person have Slovak ethnic ancestry? 2. Did he/she possess Slovak ethnocultural consciousness (and is this documentable)? By these standards, persons like István Pongrácz (who was a Transylvanian Hungarian nobleman) can be readily excluded from the list, just as for example Maximilian Hell, Wolfgang Kempelen or János Selye who just happened to live and work in an area that was to become Slovakia later on. WiseGentleman 21:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
"Jedlik nem tót, hanem magyar vót. Mint még sokan ezen a listán. Mivan totocskák? Csak nem vagytok féltékenyek?" (It coud be translated as: Jedlik wasn't a slovak, he was Hungarian! And so were many other people on this list. What's up with you, slovakians? Are you envious of us [-> because we had more famous scientists]?)
The fact that I moved this complaint here and translated it - thinking that someone might be interested - does not mean that i agree with this anon user. I've no clue whether Jedlik or other ppl on this list were (or weren't) of Slovakian origin...
____
Lipszky János was also a Hungarian person, not a Slowak one. The most recent literature shows his career completely. The Slowaks say he is a Slowak hero, but they had destroyed his house in early 1980's... -- a sceptic H.
They destroyed their house??? What a persuasive argument... Juro 03:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear Juro, I understand your passion. It was not an argument, it was a fact (they destroyed his house, not as you understood) Is Lipszky mentioned as a Slovak cartographer? Yes. Are the Slowaks proud of him? Yes. Did they solve his house, for a personal or professional museum? Sorry, no. If you doubt in his "Hungarus" self-identification, I search you the proofs. Do you want it? Or you are simply ashamed instead of destroyers?
I don't see why these people are listed as Slovakians. The article on Hans Selye states his father was Hungarian, his mother Austrian. The one on Imre Thököly makes no mention of his Slovakian ancestry. The fact he was born in Kežmarok doesn't prove anything. Germans, Hungarians, all kinds of people lived in Kežmarok at that time. As far as Elizabeth Báthory is concerned, her family was from Nyírbátor (she was actually born there), a town in what is today Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg, in Hungary proper. She had no Slovakian ancestry whatsoever. Please remove these people from the list.-- Tamas 23:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This list also includes "individuals of significance to Slovakia". That is why I think Samo should be included. Neither of medieval rulers can be characterized as having strictly "Slovak" nationality. They spoke a Slavic language and belonged to the Slavic tribe of the Moravians. The modern Slovaks are their descendants. Samo was a Frank, but he ruled the territory of present-day Slovakia and he left here his offspring (at least according to Fredegarius). IMO this is a case similar to many other persons from the list, e.g. Chatam Sofer (a German Jew living in Bratislava) or Jan Selye (a Canadian born in Komarno to Austrian-Hungarian couple). If we include them despite their non-Slovak origin, we should not exclude Samo. Tankred 22:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that (1) there were no Slovaks in the 7th century (because there were no Czechs, Poles, Russians etc. before the 8/9/10th century, there were just generally "Slavs"), (2) Samo was explicitely Frankish and (3) the Empire of Samo was only partly in a part of what is today Slovakia - in sum, these are too much "buts" (restrictions) to include him in this list. All the other rulers in the list can be characterized as proto-Slovak or Slovak at least under a certain point of view, but not this one. In other words, including Samo is equivalent to including all rulers of the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian monarchy in the list. Juro 22:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
A notice to all Slovak nationalists on this site (whether you are supporters of Matica or Jan Slota), I am giving you one week to prove with exact facts that the Hungarian persons you have listed in this article were indeed famous Slovaks, after this deadline, the gloves come off and your entries will be deleted.
Dear 81.182.167.190 and other IPs who see Wikipedia as a war game between nationalists, your attempts to “hungarize” articles about Slovakia and other countries in Central Europe are unbelievable. Why have you removed Juraj Tóth from this list? Indeed he is a Slovak astronomer, born and living in Slovakia, currently working in the Institute of Astronomy of the Slovak Academy of Sciences. Please, stop vandalizing this page. You are welcome to make serious edits, based on your knowledge of the subject. But do not remove content if you have not a slightest idea what it is about. Tankred 19:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
At least you should agree to delete Kossuth from the list since he is the most demonized Hungarian historical figure among Slovak nationalists, most of his statues were destroyed after 1918 in the Felvidék, the remaining ones are subject to constant abuse (Do Kotleba or Slota ring a bell?) 84.2.101.29 19:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Since you have raised no objection, I have removed Kossuth from the list 81.182.208.176 21:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the vague definition of the list as "a list of Slovaks and individuals of significance to Slovakia" is the source of most of the above discussed problems and misunderstandings. Who is or was significant to Slovakia? I think Edvard Beneš was. You would not find many contemporaries of Franz Joseph, who would deny his significance to this country. But do they belong to the list of Slovaks? I believe they do not. The definition should be written more precisely. Jan.Kamenicek 01:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this article (and any other Wikipedia articles dealing with the present-day Slovakia) should be carefully reedited to reflect a neutral point of view. It seems to me that at present, there is a Slovak lobby active in Wikipedia trying to slovakize every human being who ever set foot on the soil of the former Felvidék (Upper Hungary) Árpád 02:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Daar fascist vandal, I think the List of Hungarians, the article Hungary and every single article dealing with the history of Hungary and Hungarian towns should be carefully reeditted to to reflect a neutral point of view. It seems to me that at present, there is a Hungarian lobby active in Wikipedia trying to Hungarian every human being who ever set foot on the soil of the Carpathian Basin. Juro 03:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Slovakized spelling of Hungarian historical names (like Pázmány, Szelepcsényi, Bercsényi, Benyovszky, Rákóczi) in the form of e. g. Pázman, Selepcéni, Bercéni, Benovsky, Rákoci is highly controversial and debatable. As with all foreign names, the original spelling should be retained and the non-original forms should be discarded. Árpád 04:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
As I can see the first sentence is taking shape, it looks much more objective and clear now (thank you, Tankred). The only point of contention (besides Slovakized spelling) remaining is the title and the definition of the category "Slovak". Using this same standard for Hungarians and Czechs, Joseph Haydn could be called a famous Hungarian (he spent a significant amount of time in Hungary, Kismarton and Eszterháza), or Gustav Mahler could be called a famous Czech, or Pavel Országh a famous Hungarian (he wrote Hungarian poems, translated some works of Petőfi, Madách).
The information contained herein about Maxwell being Slovak is absolutely ludicrous. He was born in a town in southeastern RUTHENIA, the province which was annexed to Ukraine in 1945. He never had anything to do with Slovakia. Why do people persist in thinking he is Slovak? His birthplace is 160 KM to the SE of the Slovak border.
Kempelen was not slovak. As I wrote it into the article (before, perhaps slovak nacionalist users deleted it). His father was Engelbert Kempelen and his mother was Anna Spindler. Also: Thököly was hungarian too. Where is, I mean is there any "Ö" in the slovak language?
Slovakia never existed in the time you list most of these people as Slovaks. How can you list Germans and Hungarians as Slovaks? Most of them never even spoke Slovakian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.94.145 ( talk) 16:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are Ferenc Rákóczi and Lajos Kossuth on a list of Slovaks? I can somewhat understand (although strongly disagree with) the rationale for putting Kossuth, with his distant Slovak ancestry, on such a list, but Rákóczi? He had no Slovak blood or identity, ruled in Transylvania...yes, he was born in a town that is NOW part of Slovakia, but if birthplace is the ONLY criterion that determines someone's nationality, then we might as well go put Béla Bartók on the list of Romanians. K. Lásztocska 22:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I have the feeling that this list needs to be reworked or split into several lists, since "List of Slovaks" is clearly misleading in lots of cases. You just can't mix all people together without any basis or the list will lose all its meaning. The list should be split to "List of people of Slovak descent" (or List of Slovaks) and to "List of people living in Slovakia" (for those who currently live there regardless of ethnicity) "list of people who lived in Chezoslovakia" etc. Hobartimus 23:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Since I do not see any reason why this list should use more restrictive criteria than other similar lists, I rewrote the lead using the leads of similar lists (Spaniards, Irish people, Latvians, Romanian Jews, Polish Jews, Romanians) as a model. The criteria are now explicitly listed, in a way that is standard in this type of articles. Tankred 02:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no such standard and even if there was nothing could justify listing Hungarians who have nothing to do with Slovaks in a "List of Slovaks", that is simply unacceptable. Hobartimus 03:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
What would you call what happened to Spain if not Moor occupation? It was originally a Muslim Arab state? Have you seen this: List of Hungarians who were born outside present-day Hungary? For "harassment of articles" see for example Bálint Balassa page history. Squash Racket 14:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
As I pointed out above, we already have List of Hungarians who were born outside present-day Hungary, take a look. Squash Racket 17:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I added Kant to famous Russians and Guttenberg to famous French, but Rakoczi I do not understand, I think both part of his ancestors are related to Transylvania, so he must be famous Vlach.., good to know at least that the good Martin (Saint according to the Catholics) of Szombathely is Hungarian together with Arany Mark who died at Szöny as the only Hungarian Augustus Philosopher fighting the Slovaks..-- Vargatamas 22:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
once more I knew that Balassi has some Turkish poems, that are printed in his Hungarian edition, but the Slovak ones are missing from this nationalistic edition..
must be recent findings(!), and Moravia are bound to Slovaks only in Slovakian History books, some say it was in Austria, later in today Moravia, interesting very sporty.
Now I read the Fulda Annals, the official Frankish Carolingian record, and found no word on Balaton principality, only that Svato plundered Pannonia 10 years before that Barbars came..
do not worry, also Croats (like Dux Braslav, Liudovit both between Sava and Drava, but etnichally SK), Franks, Ruthens etc become Slovaks, not only Hungarians Jedlik might be Slovak or Czech, or Polish, and Slovaks were living around Budapest and in Bekes, or in Voivodina,
!and better would be check the facts than use our phantasy, letting people decide who they were (Kossuth might have Slovak ancestors, but may have felt Hungarian, Juli Toth the way around, use the surviving records and their statement and do not invent, please put ancestry/feeling/birthplace/language skills one by one with the weighted average that everyone see why who is what. Thanks!-- Vargatamas 22:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
What's interesting about all of this is how passionate both sides feel about this topic. I am Hungarian and I have to admit that we tend not to see past our own noses sometimes. Let's face it, the people who lived in the Carpatho-Danubian region have a shared history whether they're slovak, croatian, romanian, german, hungarian or armenian for that matter. What tends to be a little obscure or confusing is who gets to call who what. I personally don't mind that slovaks co-opt Rakoczi for instance or thokoly or balassa or kossuth etc... i'm certainly willing to share but what is missing perhaps from all of this is a bit of context. I think if you were to put Kossuth et all in context, Hungarians would not feel quite as threatened about their (my) own identity. Because really we are talking about history after all and if the underlying context is missing from the description, someone who doesn't have any idea about slovak or hungarian history might interpret these lists inappropriately. So to say Kossuth is a Hungarian-Slovak is a little misleading, a more accurate description of Kossuth would be to say that he was a Hungarian National Leader with an alleged Slovak ancestry. Alleged, only because he questioned this more than once as well. Or take Rakoczi for example; he could be listed as a Hungarian Transylvanian Prince who organized slovak regiments against Hapsburg rule in upper hungary. Just simply listing these historical figures as Hungarian Slovaks or Slovak Hungarians is in my opinion missing the point of context. Now having said that I am flattered as a Hungarian that Slovaks would call a son of Hungary also a son of slovakia. So in the end these lists for me do not provide the right context for a real interpretation of history, but i think it is right to say that rakoczi for instance had an influence on the slovak people living in upper hungary during the kuruc rebellions. now that i could live with. -- Csango 23:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Since there's apparently next to no chance of ever getting people like Rákóczi (or other Hungarians, Czechs, Poles, Moravians and who knows what else, whose only connection to Slovakia is that they were born in what is now Slovakia) off this list, can we at least rename the page to a less-misleading title? "List of people born in present-day Slovakia," or something--I don't have time to look around right now but I believe such a title would be not without precedent. K. Lásztocska talk 04:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The title and composition of this list are quite standard in Wikipedia, see the lengthy discussion above. Moreover, the list does not include only people "born in present-day Slovakia". Tankred ( talk) 16:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Page move proposal to rename this page to "List of people born in present-day Slovakia" as proposed by K. Lastochka :
Supporting the move:
Opposing the move:
(just re-indenting here...) OK. Here's how I see it. To refer to someone simply as a Slovak, I think, that person would have to be either an ethnic Slovak or a citizen of Slovakia. (or both, but you get my point.) If someone is of some other ethnicity (Hungarian, Croat, German, whatever) and was born/lived in a region that is part of Slovakia NOW but was not part of Slovakia at the time that the person in question lived, then that person cannot with any accuracy be called a Slovak. It's just bad history. I don't care what the three criteria at the top of the page say, the criteria are bad ones and lead only to historical inaccuracy and misrepresentation. And I suppose that I too must (again) officially and for the record state that I do not oppose the existence of Slovakia or deny the existence of the Slovak nation in the slightest. I love my ethnic Slovak relatives very dearly as well. My objections to the scope of this list are purely academic and I would appreciate it if you would treat them as such. K. Lásztocska talk 15:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal: Why don't we specify for each entry whether the person was born in Slovakia, lived there, was a Slovak citizen or was of Slovak descent? For example, there would be a small note that Kossuth was of Slovak descent or that Elizabeth Bathory lived in what is now Slovakia. No readers would be mistaken. I think this solution would make everyone happy. Tankred ( talk) 16:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that this is English Wki, "to someone simply as a Slovak, I think, that person would have to be either an ethnic Slovak or a citizen of Slovakia." is not the case in how American is commonly used. No one investigates people's citizenship or ethnicity in order to call them that, their presence, often very temporary, is enough. To use a Central European−American example, American sources commonly see Dvorak as an American without denying his other attributes although he spent barely 3 years in the US and the way he spoke bore little resemblance to English. Wki's List of Americans might be a model of solving this, but it would then probably need to become the policy for all the Wki lists, not just for the lists of Hungarians and Slovaks. That would be so much work and generate so many new controversies (who'd fail to argue about Martin of Braga's supposedly Slavic parents?) that it might be more efficient (plus fashionably inclusive) to accept multiple listings of the same person instead of seeing it as an either-or proposition. Rakoczi will rest in peace more peacefully if he stars on the lists of Hungarians, Slovaks, Transylvanians, Romanians, Non-ethinc Nobles, Invaders, Defenders, Patriots, Seccessionists, Dead White Men... at the same time. Who'd want to be on only one list. Carca220nne ( talk) 20:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I see no reason for any change here. The preamble of article states: "This is a list, in alphabetical order within categories, of notable people who either: are or were citizens of Slovakia,are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry, were born in the territory of present-day Slovakia and/or who have lived there for most of their lives." In my view this is absolutely correct. If you wanted to give name including all these 3 cases, the name would be simply too long. All alternative suggestions of name here were small subsets of the preamble text. Although the name of article is very short, this preamble gives the right interpretation and it seems to be the best possible name. If anybody wants to have more specific list, in my view he is free to make it, e.g. by making appropriate subset from the present list. --
Ruziklan (
talk) 22:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"I have never seen a single English-language source refer to..."
You think you could put this list into Britannica with that title? Nobody answered that very simple question. Squash Racket ( talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"Nobody answered that very simple question."
"That is the real question here."
I think the best solution would be to ask Rákóczi personally: - Your Excellency, Prince of Transylvania, please accept the assurances of my highest consideration. If I may introduce myself, I am KIDB, I am coming from the 21st century Hungary. I have question to ask, very urgently. Are you a Slovak? - My son, I am so glad to see you. Tell me please, could we win against the bastard Labanc Armies (Habsburg supporters) and unite Transylvania with Hungary under my leadership? ... What did you say? Slovak? I heard the Tót pepople in the villages in my northern estates calling themselves Slovak but why do you ask? - Sir, I am sorry to inform you, but you couldn't win against the Habsburgs. And by the way, you were the last Prince of Transylvania. But after centuries of conflicts, we finally made a compromise with the Austrians in the 19th century. - That's very sad. And why did you ask about Slovaks? - Well, Sir, I am extremely sorry to inform you, but we lost Northern Hungary in the 20th century, along with most of your estates over there. Now the whole area is ruled by Tót (Slovak) people. I know you are not too much interested in ethnicities, but you would be surprised anyway that almost nobody speaks Hungarian in Kassa and Pozsony today. These cities are now called Kosice and Bratislava. - Oh my goodness. Now I realise you are a liar and a spy of the Habsburgs. This must not be true. Servants! Take this person and execute him immediately! -- KIDB ( talk) 07:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, KIDB, I laughed--good one. :) Tankred, it's informative to know that you believe Hungarians and Slovaks will "never bridge this huge gap in knowledge and understanding of each other." If that's how you're going to be, then we might as well not even try. K. Lásztocska talk 05:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
But all we have reached is: we agree that we disagree. I'll just repeat my position: I've never claimed about Rakoczi being an ethnic Slovak, the only reason why he's listed here is that he was BORN in present-day Slovakia. No more, no less. Though, the best and least confusing is to mark the reason at such cases why they're listed here; but moving whole list is a silly thing to do and could imply that you question or worse deny existence of another nation.
So maybe it could look like this (example):
It's not best but still better than nothing. If you don't even accept this one, I suggest we should put the whole thing off for 2-3 weeks, because I hope you don't want to war during holidays. MarkBA t/ c/ @ 10:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the focus should be on the inclusion criteria. The first two (Citizenship, Ethnicity) are certainly valid, the third (geo-nativity) is problematic in this case, leading to inclusion of those who would never have considered themselves any more Slovak than Urugayan. Q: is criteria Nr.3 really necessary (or even helpful), and whom does it include that the first two do not? A: It seems criteria Nr.3 uniquely includes mostly non-Slovaks - this makes the title misleading. I would not suggest changing the title, but rather dropping the third inclusion criteria and amending the list as required. István ( talk) 06:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Looking at it systematically first-
C1 - Citizenship: "are or were citizens of Slovakia"
C2 - Ethnicity: "are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry"
C3 - Geo-nativity: "were born in the territory of present-day Slovakia and/or who have lived there for most of their lives"
What does C3 capture that are not captured by C1 and C2? Lots of non-Slovaks. C1 and C2 are uncontroversially correct (except I would rephrase C2 to omit "identity or" as that can be purely subjective - e.g. I wouldn't include George Patton on a list of Roman Centurions) The examples of emigrants, e.g. Slovak-Americans are included by C2. Tankred's questions a. Why should this list use more restrictive criteria than other similar lists in Wikipedia? and b. How [should one] assess ethnicity of people born before the modern concept of the nation was created? My answers: a. It is already more specific, arguably restrictive. Browse this and see that in most cases inclusion criteria is generally not given or is simply generalized or left to common sense; secondly a. is addressed by b. as Slovakia, one of Europe's special cases, existed as an independent nation since 1993 (happy 15th birthday btw). b. What about before the concept of nation was established? how far back are we to go? At the extreme, we should certainly not include neolithics who lived in present-day Slovakia, more recently there was the 1000 years when Slovakia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary (even when present-day Hungary itself wasn't) But I dont think that's the issue. Including Rákóczi is a red flag that something is not right and I think its including people who are neither ethnically or formally Slovak. If such a criteria were acceptable then Hungarians sould claim this notable as a compatriot, though nobody really does. (except people from Szombathely). István ( talk) 03:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys!
I think the best solution would be the following: create a new list of'Famous people of the Kingdom of Hungary from 896-1919'.
Every mentioned person should appear on this list pointing on his originality, mother's tongue, birth place(just if these are known...)
From 1919 every separate country has to have his own list of his famous people, but the every of them should be connected, linket to the above mentioned list.
If there will be people that could appear on both lists(f.e they lived in nearby 1919), it can be decided that on which list should they appear.
I think there is no point argueing about their nationality as it wasn't the main caracteristic of them(so much more it was their ranking,religion or nobility). (Sorry for my poor english) - KaracharNevian ( talk) 15:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with István and K. Lastochka. Slovaks should be listed here only. -- Rembaoud ( talk) 22:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Please, can somebody explain what exactly is false in the information removed in this diff? What is wrong with Ján Andrej Segner or Rudolf Vrba for example?! I do not think editing like this is bold, but I have hard time finding appropriate yet civil name for that. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 10:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)ű
Hello everybody. I have made a detailed edit summary of my edit. Please, if you have intention of removing anything from changes I have done, can you leave a remark about it here with some explanation? From my knowledge, all returned people are conforming to inclusion criteria. I was trying to be as objective as possible. Please, show some constructive input and show me, where I am wrong.
Namely:
-- Ruziklan ( talk) 12:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
My apologies for my hasty renaming of this page earlier today. I've been rather inactive on Wikipedia for some time now and I'm apparently forgetting some protocols and procedures. In any event, we might as well discuss it now--does anyone have any particular objections to the new name "List of Slovakians"? (I ask only for serious objections, and no objections based on either my ethnic ancestry or that of anyone else who comments here.) K. Lásztocska talk 04:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Elonka has created a subpage in her userspace, trying to centralize discussions involving Hungarian and Slovakian editors. It is an experiment, as it is neither a mediation nor a Request for Comment, nor is it a random chat. She will be moderating the discussion as an administrator, and enforcing rules of civility to minimize disruption. This is an experiment, as part of her participation in the ArbCom-appointed Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars and has asked me to give a linke here as I have brought this list to her knowledge. Please, follow the discussion at: User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment. Thanks, -- Ruziklan ( talk) 13:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
(posts from April 17-18, 2008 were copied from User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment)
There is a major disagreement about content of this list. The core of dispute is in my view rooted in the definitions of the inclusion criteria. One side prefers the following three-condition-start
while the other side prefers the followinf two-conditions-start
There are some other points within article repeatedly reverted, including in my view virtually non-disputed points, but the inclusion criteria should be made clear first. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 13:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
All this has already been discussed at Talk:List_of_Slovaks#R.C3.A1k.C3.B3czi_and_Kossuth.3F and Talk:List_of_Slovaks#page_name. Please read those threads if you are interested in this case. Tankred ( talk) 15:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
CoolKoon has just inserted
Gábor Demszky into
List of Slovaks (see
diff
diff) in spite of
Also despite following current politics I have no idea how he is tied to Slovakia. The provided reference [14] should probably document his tie to Slovakia, but is in Hungarian language therefore I ask him to give brief summary here. Posting to his talk page. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 19:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I took a look at the December 2007 discussion, and the current discussions. However, I have to point something out here: Talkpage discussion cannot trump Wikipedia policy. As it stands, List of Slovaks is in gross breach of the first pillar of Wikipedia policy. We are not here to provide original research. All information here must be linked to reliable sources. The threshold for what can be included is Verifiability, not truth. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. To be specific: No name should go onto the list, unless there is a reliable source which describes that individual as a Slovak. So instead of disagreeing about the exact definition, I recommend some rapid progress in providing sources for the names that are there. Any names for which there are no sources, should be removed. -- El on ka 06:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to include my name as a sculptor of Slovak (father), Moravian (mother) origin, born jun 5. 1943 in Slovakia. Of course I can not do it for obvious reason (self promotion). Anybody interested in my inclusion? Am I good enough for you? Rasto Hlavina 7,12, 2011 74.210.37.164 ( talk) 13:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the many clean-up templates because they seem to be out of date and often duplicate one another. Are they there for some political statement? The remaining entries are bluelinked and if anyone disputes the nationality/ethnicity they can remove them or seek verification. Sionk ( talk) 20:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
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I don't understand, how do you have the right to Slovakize people, like Mednyászky László or Thököly Imre. They just lived in the former North Hungary as all the Slovaks did. If somebody lived/lives in the today's territory of Slovakia (finalized in 1947) is automatically a Slovak?
Maximilian Hell was one of dozens of astronomers who observed the 1769 transit of Venus from various parts of the globe. Their collective efforts at this transit (and the previous one in 1761) led to a determination of the parallax and the distance to the Sun. Note the parallax method, by definition, requires at least two separate observations at widely separated points, so it is impossible to single-handedly determine a parallax. Also, it is not accurate to say he was "one of the greatest" astronomers of the 18th century. Not to diminish him in any way, but a quite a few other 18th century astronomers have a considerably greater claim to fame. Curps 01:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes. See the article at Transit of Venus, and the Economist article linked to at the bottom of that page. Maximilian Hell was one of many distinguished scientists who participated in the first international scientific collaboration, going on expeditions to observe the transits of Venus in 1761 and 1769 from as many different parts of the world as possible, in order to determine the Sun's parallax and thereby determine its distance. They all made their observations on the same day (the day of the transit), and the data was collected together to come up with the result. The original wording in the article made it seem as if Maximilian Hell did all this by himself.
I would guess that your source article was not written by an astronomer, so the person did not get the details exactly right. By the way, the next transit of Venus is in only five days (June 8), and it's the first one since 1882. There might be stories about it in the newspaper. Curps 18:35, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
IMHO, Slovak poetry page should be about *Slovak poetry*, not about poets who might be (controversially) considered Slovaks, but who did not wrote a signle line of Slovak in their life. rado 12:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have hoped someone would express this opinion. You can delete him. (I just did not want another edit war) ... Juro 15:52, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am surprized by the amount of Slovak saints. Actually, there should be only one saint, who is certain to be a Slovak, and that is St. Gorazd. The martyrs of Košice (Pongratz, Krizhin, Grodziecki) were not Slovaks.
For obvious reasons, all the lists of Slovaks etc. in the Wikipedia are no lists of strictly ethnic Slovaks etc. only and this one is no exception... Juro 23:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but how do you define Slovaks then? Since the ethnic composition in territory of present-day Slovakia was much more diverse over the centuries (besides Slavs who may or may not be referred to as Slovaks during the Middle Ages, Hungarians and Germans (Zipsers) gave a fundamental contribution to the cultural landscape of today's Slovakia. In my humble opinion (ethnic identity was a tricky thing in the Middle Ages and the population in the former Kingdom of Hungary shared a common "hungarus" national consciousness), the most important criteria for identifying a person as a "famous Slovak" are the following: 1. Did the person have Slovak ethnic ancestry? 2. Did he/she possess Slovak ethnocultural consciousness (and is this documentable)? By these standards, persons like István Pongrácz (who was a Transylvanian Hungarian nobleman) can be readily excluded from the list, just as for example Maximilian Hell, Wolfgang Kempelen or János Selye who just happened to live and work in an area that was to become Slovakia later on. WiseGentleman 21:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
"Jedlik nem tót, hanem magyar vót. Mint még sokan ezen a listán. Mivan totocskák? Csak nem vagytok féltékenyek?" (It coud be translated as: Jedlik wasn't a slovak, he was Hungarian! And so were many other people on this list. What's up with you, slovakians? Are you envious of us [-> because we had more famous scientists]?)
The fact that I moved this complaint here and translated it - thinking that someone might be interested - does not mean that i agree with this anon user. I've no clue whether Jedlik or other ppl on this list were (or weren't) of Slovakian origin...
____
Lipszky János was also a Hungarian person, not a Slowak one. The most recent literature shows his career completely. The Slowaks say he is a Slowak hero, but they had destroyed his house in early 1980's... -- a sceptic H.
They destroyed their house??? What a persuasive argument... Juro 03:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear Juro, I understand your passion. It was not an argument, it was a fact (they destroyed his house, not as you understood) Is Lipszky mentioned as a Slovak cartographer? Yes. Are the Slowaks proud of him? Yes. Did they solve his house, for a personal or professional museum? Sorry, no. If you doubt in his "Hungarus" self-identification, I search you the proofs. Do you want it? Or you are simply ashamed instead of destroyers?
I don't see why these people are listed as Slovakians. The article on Hans Selye states his father was Hungarian, his mother Austrian. The one on Imre Thököly makes no mention of his Slovakian ancestry. The fact he was born in Kežmarok doesn't prove anything. Germans, Hungarians, all kinds of people lived in Kežmarok at that time. As far as Elizabeth Báthory is concerned, her family was from Nyírbátor (she was actually born there), a town in what is today Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg, in Hungary proper. She had no Slovakian ancestry whatsoever. Please remove these people from the list.-- Tamas 23:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This list also includes "individuals of significance to Slovakia". That is why I think Samo should be included. Neither of medieval rulers can be characterized as having strictly "Slovak" nationality. They spoke a Slavic language and belonged to the Slavic tribe of the Moravians. The modern Slovaks are their descendants. Samo was a Frank, but he ruled the territory of present-day Slovakia and he left here his offspring (at least according to Fredegarius). IMO this is a case similar to many other persons from the list, e.g. Chatam Sofer (a German Jew living in Bratislava) or Jan Selye (a Canadian born in Komarno to Austrian-Hungarian couple). If we include them despite their non-Slovak origin, we should not exclude Samo. Tankred 22:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that (1) there were no Slovaks in the 7th century (because there were no Czechs, Poles, Russians etc. before the 8/9/10th century, there were just generally "Slavs"), (2) Samo was explicitely Frankish and (3) the Empire of Samo was only partly in a part of what is today Slovakia - in sum, these are too much "buts" (restrictions) to include him in this list. All the other rulers in the list can be characterized as proto-Slovak or Slovak at least under a certain point of view, but not this one. In other words, including Samo is equivalent to including all rulers of the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian monarchy in the list. Juro 22:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
A notice to all Slovak nationalists on this site (whether you are supporters of Matica or Jan Slota), I am giving you one week to prove with exact facts that the Hungarian persons you have listed in this article were indeed famous Slovaks, after this deadline, the gloves come off and your entries will be deleted.
Dear 81.182.167.190 and other IPs who see Wikipedia as a war game between nationalists, your attempts to “hungarize” articles about Slovakia and other countries in Central Europe are unbelievable. Why have you removed Juraj Tóth from this list? Indeed he is a Slovak astronomer, born and living in Slovakia, currently working in the Institute of Astronomy of the Slovak Academy of Sciences. Please, stop vandalizing this page. You are welcome to make serious edits, based on your knowledge of the subject. But do not remove content if you have not a slightest idea what it is about. Tankred 19:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
At least you should agree to delete Kossuth from the list since he is the most demonized Hungarian historical figure among Slovak nationalists, most of his statues were destroyed after 1918 in the Felvidék, the remaining ones are subject to constant abuse (Do Kotleba or Slota ring a bell?) 84.2.101.29 19:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Since you have raised no objection, I have removed Kossuth from the list 81.182.208.176 21:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the vague definition of the list as "a list of Slovaks and individuals of significance to Slovakia" is the source of most of the above discussed problems and misunderstandings. Who is or was significant to Slovakia? I think Edvard Beneš was. You would not find many contemporaries of Franz Joseph, who would deny his significance to this country. But do they belong to the list of Slovaks? I believe they do not. The definition should be written more precisely. Jan.Kamenicek 01:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this article (and any other Wikipedia articles dealing with the present-day Slovakia) should be carefully reedited to reflect a neutral point of view. It seems to me that at present, there is a Slovak lobby active in Wikipedia trying to slovakize every human being who ever set foot on the soil of the former Felvidék (Upper Hungary) Árpád 02:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Daar fascist vandal, I think the List of Hungarians, the article Hungary and every single article dealing with the history of Hungary and Hungarian towns should be carefully reeditted to to reflect a neutral point of view. It seems to me that at present, there is a Hungarian lobby active in Wikipedia trying to Hungarian every human being who ever set foot on the soil of the Carpathian Basin. Juro 03:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Slovakized spelling of Hungarian historical names (like Pázmány, Szelepcsényi, Bercsényi, Benyovszky, Rákóczi) in the form of e. g. Pázman, Selepcéni, Bercéni, Benovsky, Rákoci is highly controversial and debatable. As with all foreign names, the original spelling should be retained and the non-original forms should be discarded. Árpád 04:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
As I can see the first sentence is taking shape, it looks much more objective and clear now (thank you, Tankred). The only point of contention (besides Slovakized spelling) remaining is the title and the definition of the category "Slovak". Using this same standard for Hungarians and Czechs, Joseph Haydn could be called a famous Hungarian (he spent a significant amount of time in Hungary, Kismarton and Eszterháza), or Gustav Mahler could be called a famous Czech, or Pavel Országh a famous Hungarian (he wrote Hungarian poems, translated some works of Petőfi, Madách).
The information contained herein about Maxwell being Slovak is absolutely ludicrous. He was born in a town in southeastern RUTHENIA, the province which was annexed to Ukraine in 1945. He never had anything to do with Slovakia. Why do people persist in thinking he is Slovak? His birthplace is 160 KM to the SE of the Slovak border.
Kempelen was not slovak. As I wrote it into the article (before, perhaps slovak nacionalist users deleted it). His father was Engelbert Kempelen and his mother was Anna Spindler. Also: Thököly was hungarian too. Where is, I mean is there any "Ö" in the slovak language?
Slovakia never existed in the time you list most of these people as Slovaks. How can you list Germans and Hungarians as Slovaks? Most of them never even spoke Slovakian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.94.145 ( talk) 16:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are Ferenc Rákóczi and Lajos Kossuth on a list of Slovaks? I can somewhat understand (although strongly disagree with) the rationale for putting Kossuth, with his distant Slovak ancestry, on such a list, but Rákóczi? He had no Slovak blood or identity, ruled in Transylvania...yes, he was born in a town that is NOW part of Slovakia, but if birthplace is the ONLY criterion that determines someone's nationality, then we might as well go put Béla Bartók on the list of Romanians. K. Lásztocska 22:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I have the feeling that this list needs to be reworked or split into several lists, since "List of Slovaks" is clearly misleading in lots of cases. You just can't mix all people together without any basis or the list will lose all its meaning. The list should be split to "List of people of Slovak descent" (or List of Slovaks) and to "List of people living in Slovakia" (for those who currently live there regardless of ethnicity) "list of people who lived in Chezoslovakia" etc. Hobartimus 23:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Since I do not see any reason why this list should use more restrictive criteria than other similar lists, I rewrote the lead using the leads of similar lists (Spaniards, Irish people, Latvians, Romanian Jews, Polish Jews, Romanians) as a model. The criteria are now explicitly listed, in a way that is standard in this type of articles. Tankred 02:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no such standard and even if there was nothing could justify listing Hungarians who have nothing to do with Slovaks in a "List of Slovaks", that is simply unacceptable. Hobartimus 03:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
What would you call what happened to Spain if not Moor occupation? It was originally a Muslim Arab state? Have you seen this: List of Hungarians who were born outside present-day Hungary? For "harassment of articles" see for example Bálint Balassa page history. Squash Racket 14:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
As I pointed out above, we already have List of Hungarians who were born outside present-day Hungary, take a look. Squash Racket 17:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I added Kant to famous Russians and Guttenberg to famous French, but Rakoczi I do not understand, I think both part of his ancestors are related to Transylvania, so he must be famous Vlach.., good to know at least that the good Martin (Saint according to the Catholics) of Szombathely is Hungarian together with Arany Mark who died at Szöny as the only Hungarian Augustus Philosopher fighting the Slovaks..-- Vargatamas 22:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
once more I knew that Balassi has some Turkish poems, that are printed in his Hungarian edition, but the Slovak ones are missing from this nationalistic edition..
must be recent findings(!), and Moravia are bound to Slovaks only in Slovakian History books, some say it was in Austria, later in today Moravia, interesting very sporty.
Now I read the Fulda Annals, the official Frankish Carolingian record, and found no word on Balaton principality, only that Svato plundered Pannonia 10 years before that Barbars came..
do not worry, also Croats (like Dux Braslav, Liudovit both between Sava and Drava, but etnichally SK), Franks, Ruthens etc become Slovaks, not only Hungarians Jedlik might be Slovak or Czech, or Polish, and Slovaks were living around Budapest and in Bekes, or in Voivodina,
!and better would be check the facts than use our phantasy, letting people decide who they were (Kossuth might have Slovak ancestors, but may have felt Hungarian, Juli Toth the way around, use the surviving records and their statement and do not invent, please put ancestry/feeling/birthplace/language skills one by one with the weighted average that everyone see why who is what. Thanks!-- Vargatamas 22:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
What's interesting about all of this is how passionate both sides feel about this topic. I am Hungarian and I have to admit that we tend not to see past our own noses sometimes. Let's face it, the people who lived in the Carpatho-Danubian region have a shared history whether they're slovak, croatian, romanian, german, hungarian or armenian for that matter. What tends to be a little obscure or confusing is who gets to call who what. I personally don't mind that slovaks co-opt Rakoczi for instance or thokoly or balassa or kossuth etc... i'm certainly willing to share but what is missing perhaps from all of this is a bit of context. I think if you were to put Kossuth et all in context, Hungarians would not feel quite as threatened about their (my) own identity. Because really we are talking about history after all and if the underlying context is missing from the description, someone who doesn't have any idea about slovak or hungarian history might interpret these lists inappropriately. So to say Kossuth is a Hungarian-Slovak is a little misleading, a more accurate description of Kossuth would be to say that he was a Hungarian National Leader with an alleged Slovak ancestry. Alleged, only because he questioned this more than once as well. Or take Rakoczi for example; he could be listed as a Hungarian Transylvanian Prince who organized slovak regiments against Hapsburg rule in upper hungary. Just simply listing these historical figures as Hungarian Slovaks or Slovak Hungarians is in my opinion missing the point of context. Now having said that I am flattered as a Hungarian that Slovaks would call a son of Hungary also a son of slovakia. So in the end these lists for me do not provide the right context for a real interpretation of history, but i think it is right to say that rakoczi for instance had an influence on the slovak people living in upper hungary during the kuruc rebellions. now that i could live with. -- Csango 23:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Since there's apparently next to no chance of ever getting people like Rákóczi (or other Hungarians, Czechs, Poles, Moravians and who knows what else, whose only connection to Slovakia is that they were born in what is now Slovakia) off this list, can we at least rename the page to a less-misleading title? "List of people born in present-day Slovakia," or something--I don't have time to look around right now but I believe such a title would be not without precedent. K. Lásztocska talk 04:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The title and composition of this list are quite standard in Wikipedia, see the lengthy discussion above. Moreover, the list does not include only people "born in present-day Slovakia". Tankred ( talk) 16:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Page move proposal to rename this page to "List of people born in present-day Slovakia" as proposed by K. Lastochka :
Supporting the move:
Opposing the move:
(just re-indenting here...) OK. Here's how I see it. To refer to someone simply as a Slovak, I think, that person would have to be either an ethnic Slovak or a citizen of Slovakia. (or both, but you get my point.) If someone is of some other ethnicity (Hungarian, Croat, German, whatever) and was born/lived in a region that is part of Slovakia NOW but was not part of Slovakia at the time that the person in question lived, then that person cannot with any accuracy be called a Slovak. It's just bad history. I don't care what the three criteria at the top of the page say, the criteria are bad ones and lead only to historical inaccuracy and misrepresentation. And I suppose that I too must (again) officially and for the record state that I do not oppose the existence of Slovakia or deny the existence of the Slovak nation in the slightest. I love my ethnic Slovak relatives very dearly as well. My objections to the scope of this list are purely academic and I would appreciate it if you would treat them as such. K. Lásztocska talk 15:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal: Why don't we specify for each entry whether the person was born in Slovakia, lived there, was a Slovak citizen or was of Slovak descent? For example, there would be a small note that Kossuth was of Slovak descent or that Elizabeth Bathory lived in what is now Slovakia. No readers would be mistaken. I think this solution would make everyone happy. Tankred ( talk) 16:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that this is English Wki, "to someone simply as a Slovak, I think, that person would have to be either an ethnic Slovak or a citizen of Slovakia." is not the case in how American is commonly used. No one investigates people's citizenship or ethnicity in order to call them that, their presence, often very temporary, is enough. To use a Central European−American example, American sources commonly see Dvorak as an American without denying his other attributes although he spent barely 3 years in the US and the way he spoke bore little resemblance to English. Wki's List of Americans might be a model of solving this, but it would then probably need to become the policy for all the Wki lists, not just for the lists of Hungarians and Slovaks. That would be so much work and generate so many new controversies (who'd fail to argue about Martin of Braga's supposedly Slavic parents?) that it might be more efficient (plus fashionably inclusive) to accept multiple listings of the same person instead of seeing it as an either-or proposition. Rakoczi will rest in peace more peacefully if he stars on the lists of Hungarians, Slovaks, Transylvanians, Romanians, Non-ethinc Nobles, Invaders, Defenders, Patriots, Seccessionists, Dead White Men... at the same time. Who'd want to be on only one list. Carca220nne ( talk) 20:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I see no reason for any change here. The preamble of article states: "This is a list, in alphabetical order within categories, of notable people who either: are or were citizens of Slovakia,are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry, were born in the territory of present-day Slovakia and/or who have lived there for most of their lives." In my view this is absolutely correct. If you wanted to give name including all these 3 cases, the name would be simply too long. All alternative suggestions of name here were small subsets of the preamble text. Although the name of article is very short, this preamble gives the right interpretation and it seems to be the best possible name. If anybody wants to have more specific list, in my view he is free to make it, e.g. by making appropriate subset from the present list. --
Ruziklan (
talk) 22:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"I have never seen a single English-language source refer to..."
You think you could put this list into Britannica with that title? Nobody answered that very simple question. Squash Racket ( talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"Nobody answered that very simple question."
"That is the real question here."
I think the best solution would be to ask Rákóczi personally: - Your Excellency, Prince of Transylvania, please accept the assurances of my highest consideration. If I may introduce myself, I am KIDB, I am coming from the 21st century Hungary. I have question to ask, very urgently. Are you a Slovak? - My son, I am so glad to see you. Tell me please, could we win against the bastard Labanc Armies (Habsburg supporters) and unite Transylvania with Hungary under my leadership? ... What did you say? Slovak? I heard the Tót pepople in the villages in my northern estates calling themselves Slovak but why do you ask? - Sir, I am sorry to inform you, but you couldn't win against the Habsburgs. And by the way, you were the last Prince of Transylvania. But after centuries of conflicts, we finally made a compromise with the Austrians in the 19th century. - That's very sad. And why did you ask about Slovaks? - Well, Sir, I am extremely sorry to inform you, but we lost Northern Hungary in the 20th century, along with most of your estates over there. Now the whole area is ruled by Tót (Slovak) people. I know you are not too much interested in ethnicities, but you would be surprised anyway that almost nobody speaks Hungarian in Kassa and Pozsony today. These cities are now called Kosice and Bratislava. - Oh my goodness. Now I realise you are a liar and a spy of the Habsburgs. This must not be true. Servants! Take this person and execute him immediately! -- KIDB ( talk) 07:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, KIDB, I laughed--good one. :) Tankred, it's informative to know that you believe Hungarians and Slovaks will "never bridge this huge gap in knowledge and understanding of each other." If that's how you're going to be, then we might as well not even try. K. Lásztocska talk 05:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
But all we have reached is: we agree that we disagree. I'll just repeat my position: I've never claimed about Rakoczi being an ethnic Slovak, the only reason why he's listed here is that he was BORN in present-day Slovakia. No more, no less. Though, the best and least confusing is to mark the reason at such cases why they're listed here; but moving whole list is a silly thing to do and could imply that you question or worse deny existence of another nation.
So maybe it could look like this (example):
It's not best but still better than nothing. If you don't even accept this one, I suggest we should put the whole thing off for 2-3 weeks, because I hope you don't want to war during holidays. MarkBA t/ c/ @ 10:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the focus should be on the inclusion criteria. The first two (Citizenship, Ethnicity) are certainly valid, the third (geo-nativity) is problematic in this case, leading to inclusion of those who would never have considered themselves any more Slovak than Urugayan. Q: is criteria Nr.3 really necessary (or even helpful), and whom does it include that the first two do not? A: It seems criteria Nr.3 uniquely includes mostly non-Slovaks - this makes the title misleading. I would not suggest changing the title, but rather dropping the third inclusion criteria and amending the list as required. István ( talk) 06:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Looking at it systematically first-
C1 - Citizenship: "are or were citizens of Slovakia"
C2 - Ethnicity: "are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry"
C3 - Geo-nativity: "were born in the territory of present-day Slovakia and/or who have lived there for most of their lives"
What does C3 capture that are not captured by C1 and C2? Lots of non-Slovaks. C1 and C2 are uncontroversially correct (except I would rephrase C2 to omit "identity or" as that can be purely subjective - e.g. I wouldn't include George Patton on a list of Roman Centurions) The examples of emigrants, e.g. Slovak-Americans are included by C2. Tankred's questions a. Why should this list use more restrictive criteria than other similar lists in Wikipedia? and b. How [should one] assess ethnicity of people born before the modern concept of the nation was created? My answers: a. It is already more specific, arguably restrictive. Browse this and see that in most cases inclusion criteria is generally not given or is simply generalized or left to common sense; secondly a. is addressed by b. as Slovakia, one of Europe's special cases, existed as an independent nation since 1993 (happy 15th birthday btw). b. What about before the concept of nation was established? how far back are we to go? At the extreme, we should certainly not include neolithics who lived in present-day Slovakia, more recently there was the 1000 years when Slovakia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary (even when present-day Hungary itself wasn't) But I dont think that's the issue. Including Rákóczi is a red flag that something is not right and I think its including people who are neither ethnically or formally Slovak. If such a criteria were acceptable then Hungarians sould claim this notable as a compatriot, though nobody really does. (except people from Szombathely). István ( talk) 03:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys!
I think the best solution would be the following: create a new list of'Famous people of the Kingdom of Hungary from 896-1919'.
Every mentioned person should appear on this list pointing on his originality, mother's tongue, birth place(just if these are known...)
From 1919 every separate country has to have his own list of his famous people, but the every of them should be connected, linket to the above mentioned list.
If there will be people that could appear on both lists(f.e they lived in nearby 1919), it can be decided that on which list should they appear.
I think there is no point argueing about their nationality as it wasn't the main caracteristic of them(so much more it was their ranking,religion or nobility). (Sorry for my poor english) - KaracharNevian ( talk) 15:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with István and K. Lastochka. Slovaks should be listed here only. -- Rembaoud ( talk) 22:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Please, can somebody explain what exactly is false in the information removed in this diff? What is wrong with Ján Andrej Segner or Rudolf Vrba for example?! I do not think editing like this is bold, but I have hard time finding appropriate yet civil name for that. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 10:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)ű
Hello everybody. I have made a detailed edit summary of my edit. Please, if you have intention of removing anything from changes I have done, can you leave a remark about it here with some explanation? From my knowledge, all returned people are conforming to inclusion criteria. I was trying to be as objective as possible. Please, show some constructive input and show me, where I am wrong.
Namely:
-- Ruziklan ( talk) 12:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
My apologies for my hasty renaming of this page earlier today. I've been rather inactive on Wikipedia for some time now and I'm apparently forgetting some protocols and procedures. In any event, we might as well discuss it now--does anyone have any particular objections to the new name "List of Slovakians"? (I ask only for serious objections, and no objections based on either my ethnic ancestry or that of anyone else who comments here.) K. Lásztocska talk 04:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Elonka has created a subpage in her userspace, trying to centralize discussions involving Hungarian and Slovakian editors. It is an experiment, as it is neither a mediation nor a Request for Comment, nor is it a random chat. She will be moderating the discussion as an administrator, and enforcing rules of civility to minimize disruption. This is an experiment, as part of her participation in the ArbCom-appointed Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars and has asked me to give a linke here as I have brought this list to her knowledge. Please, follow the discussion at: User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment. Thanks, -- Ruziklan ( talk) 13:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
(posts from April 17-18, 2008 were copied from User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment)
There is a major disagreement about content of this list. The core of dispute is in my view rooted in the definitions of the inclusion criteria. One side prefers the following three-condition-start
while the other side prefers the followinf two-conditions-start
There are some other points within article repeatedly reverted, including in my view virtually non-disputed points, but the inclusion criteria should be made clear first. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 13:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
All this has already been discussed at Talk:List_of_Slovaks#R.C3.A1k.C3.B3czi_and_Kossuth.3F and Talk:List_of_Slovaks#page_name. Please read those threads if you are interested in this case. Tankred ( talk) 15:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
CoolKoon has just inserted
Gábor Demszky into
List of Slovaks (see
diff
diff) in spite of
Also despite following current politics I have no idea how he is tied to Slovakia. The provided reference [14] should probably document his tie to Slovakia, but is in Hungarian language therefore I ask him to give brief summary here. Posting to his talk page. -- Ruziklan ( talk) 19:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I took a look at the December 2007 discussion, and the current discussions. However, I have to point something out here: Talkpage discussion cannot trump Wikipedia policy. As it stands, List of Slovaks is in gross breach of the first pillar of Wikipedia policy. We are not here to provide original research. All information here must be linked to reliable sources. The threshold for what can be included is Verifiability, not truth. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. To be specific: No name should go onto the list, unless there is a reliable source which describes that individual as a Slovak. So instead of disagreeing about the exact definition, I recommend some rapid progress in providing sources for the names that are there. Any names for which there are no sources, should be removed. -- El on ka 06:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to include my name as a sculptor of Slovak (father), Moravian (mother) origin, born jun 5. 1943 in Slovakia. Of course I can not do it for obvious reason (self promotion). Anybody interested in my inclusion? Am I good enough for you? Rasto Hlavina 7,12, 2011 74.210.37.164 ( talk) 13:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the many clean-up templates because they seem to be out of date and often duplicate one another. Are they there for some political statement? The remaining entries are bluelinked and if anyone disputes the nationality/ethnicity they can remove them or seek verification. Sionk ( talk) 20:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)