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Specifically, these:
My issue is that the article does not claim that the LBK is in anyway related to the steppe pastoral people so either the references seem misleading or the article incomplete. Anyone care to comment? Dryfee ( talk) 02:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I suggest all three articles be merged (someone has to do the editing) under a new heading, Linear Ware culture. The is the title used used by James P. Mallory in his article in the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. -- FourthAve 04:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
"...in Britain the term "Schnukeramik" is not used, ... but "Corded War". Complete consistency is impossible since it is commonplace for Anglophones to refer to the Linearbandkeramik [not in italics - note by Dammers], and the TRB, rather than their English translations." (Foutnote 24 on p. 24 of A. F. Harding, European Societies in the Bronze Age (Cambridge World Archaeology): http://assets.cambridge.org/052136/4779/sample/0521364779WSC00.pdf
and
Christensen (see below, under "No defense?", for citation) writes "Linear Pottery culture (LBK)..." in his first use and then uses "LBK." Kdammers 08:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The Germans discovered the culture and named it with their name. Not matter how you look at only that name is going to suffice for them, no matter what the language. It seems obscure to English speakers so they have made it sound better in English. We need to move along here. If that is our decision then we need to go with an English name, overriding the native Germans who also speak English. Let's take 4th avenue's suggestion at the top of the page and get going, hey? There are so many other cultures to be done and conclusions asserted or denied. Thanks so much. Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
No. We should stop shoving our poor translations down everyone else's throat. It won't hurt people to have "Linear Pottery Culture" redirect to the actual name of the group (Linearbandkeramik), as is accepted by everyone except the English.
Just like we use "kindergarten" or "doppelganger" or "wunderkind" and so on ...
-Forever IP
112.198.98.31 ( talk) 16:21, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
This has been a tough one. I have moved to Linear Band Ware culture simply because this is the name JP Mallory uses in EEIC. For those who contributed to the earlier articles, you are welcome to see what you can do with it. The Linearbandkeramic article was particularly good. -- FourthAve 21:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Europe in the Neolithic : The Creation of New Worlds (Cambridge World Archaeology) (Paperback) by Alasdair W. R. Whittle uses LBK. Cunliffe's Oxford Illustrated Prehistory of Europe has Linear Pottery culture (with LBK given in parentheses in the index). 211.225.34.182 01:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi, folks. This has got the makings of a good article. First of all, I would like to say that all these names are most inappropriate, as the scholars point out every once in a while. The ware is not linear and does not feature any linear decoration. Neither is it primarily banded, though some of it contains bands. No, appropriateness lies elsewhere, and that is the reason for this extended discussion. But, tradition speaks with a loud voice, as we all fear our fathers. So, we modify tradition until it suits us. I'm totally happy with Linear pottery culture. At least the decoration is incised lines, even though curved or in rectangular shapes. Even the little punctures are often in a line, seen from the side. I would have liked LBK because of its brevity, but Linear Banded Ware Culture or Linearbandkeramikkultur sound totally weird and foreign and make incomprehensible something that ought not to be. We aren't trying to use a specialized lingo designed only for specialists. They don't need any encyclopedia. They have the journals and each other.
So, I'd like to go on from here. I notice the article is interesting but a bit sketchy. Also, there is a major player not on the field, Marija Gimbutas. She only died in person, not in scholarship (which lives forever). I happen to have some of the books so I am going to try to fill this out a bit if that is OK with you. You'll see my edits there. Botteville 00:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
PS. Obviously, the one to work on is Linear Pottery culture, as it is better English and a better structure. Botteville 00:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm replacing the Eastern Linear etc. section. It wasn't saying much and what it said was wrong. There was no way I could fit it into the Bukk Culture as portrayed by Gimbutas. I did add a description of the Bukk Culture. Botteville 02:41, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
________________________________
This page is written from the victor's point of view. We now know that the LBK DECIMATED the indiganous paleolithic population within 300 years. Check out all the stuff Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's team came up with. Seriously. These people were genocidal on a serious level. Given the the only know decendents of Europe's first peoples (the Baske) are STILL fighting this war, i think a less one-sided page is in order.
-jordan f 23 October 2005
Write it, man, write it. Do you have a broken hand? Botteville 04:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure, but I think the LBK villages in the Leine valley had fencing around them (unless I'm mixing this up with Roessen culture). The nature of the fencing suggests "defense" against wild animals. On the other hand, Jonas Christensen (“Warfare in the European Neolithic,” Acta Archaeologica 75:142,144 ) discusses a number of enclosed LBK sites, including one that replaced a burned unenclosed site. He also mentions a site in Austria with a large number of skeletons with weapon-induced trauma (p. 136). I'm changing the text.
As it now (Man. 2006) stands, the text takes Gimbutas's ideas as gospel. While she might have been right, we should not give the false impression that this is the fully accept3ed view. Let's add so weasle words! Kdammers 03:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I did the Linear Pottery culture one hoping it would be a merger of the other two. Instead, it shows up as a third alternative. I was new here at the time, still am. I guess things do not just happen, we have to make them happen.
I notice 4th avenue has commanded some space at the top. His suggestion as I read it is to collect and unify all the material under a new name based on the British authority, Mallory. Someone has to do this work and then get rid of the old articles by deleting, I presume, everything but a redirect to the new article. Is that the way it works?
I suggest we get moving on this as there is a lot to say on early Europe and the fans can't say it because of this hold-up. Also, there is a comment above about some new evidence on the way the agriculturalists moved into Europe.
4th avenue, why don't you start to follow through on your excellent idea? I'm coming back on archaeological topics but I want to finish up the climatic periods and the stages of the Baltic, as it may impact this article. Let me say this. If after I do that no one has started the clearing-house article, I will do it, and also change the other articles to redirects. Any comments? Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Great picture, I love it. Does it belong in front? If it were going to be the only picture, I think so. However, I was hoping to find some pictures of the pottery to go in there. And then there are pictures of the country and the sites, if any can be found. No matter, the format can always be changed as need be, when the illustrations turn up. And, the Internet is ideal for illustrations. That is one of its strong points. Why not show off the fine lady in her best clothes? I assume what I see of this date is someone's working file, and that the double pic and the note next to the top pic will shortly disappear.
The name issue has been already discussed thorouhly several months ago. The correct English (i.e. non-German) name is and has always been Linear (Band) Pottery culture. We know that Mallory uses a different name and it is nice that he is so creative, but he is not the only person in the world and no linguist. I know what I am talking about and come frequently across that name. See e.g. Google book search, where you get 12 results for "linear ware" (and no for linear ware culture), while you get above 500 results for linear pottery. Or see e.g. this, where the word "linear ware" does not even appear: [1] Juro 02:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Bringing in some sourced information on the disappearance of a Linear Pottery physical type and Linear Pottery genetic features, I removed the following statements for being confusing, unsourced and maybe irrelevant:
While the first phrase is according to archeological facts, I consider it wrong and OR to forward such findings as an explanation to the previously raised questions of extinction without proper sourcing. The second phrase seems pretty confused and irrelevant to me, but worse, it seems to supply another unsourced explanation. To relate NDT to new immigrants is not consistent with a continuation of older cultures. Rokus01 17:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that I have more Wikisavvy I think I will revisit this article as it seems stable. I see it made class B. Why not shoot for Class A! Excelsior. Dave 23:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Here are some sandia cave biblio items I removed:
As far as I can see the cave has nothing whatever to do with this article. It is not mentioned in the article. This looks like irrelevant spam to me. Dave 12:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a "warning" that Hibben made up data on his biblio item. Check out Hibben at [2] and elsewhere. As far as I am concerned this allegation is libel. Unless you can back that up with a reference, leave it alone, will you? If in fact anyone finds a reference the best thing to do is take Hibben out. Otherwise I'm not going take him out on YOUR say-so, whoever you are. Since Hibben worked primarily in New Mexico I suspect whoever put the Sandia Cave biblio items in here also concerned himself with Hibben. You know, some Wikipedia articles call some authors of the past prevaricators and fabricators and they have a string of investigations and references to back them up. You have nothing, as far as I can see. Libel is a serious matter. Get out and stay out. Dave 12:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Listen, buddy, your peevish comments meritorious or not are not the way we do things. I don't want to be too tough on you because you might shortly become a newcomer and then I would want to welcome you. First of all let me say this. When I did this article I did not put in the footnotes and citations. This would call for a template saying, "this article does not cite references" or some such thing. I'm totally amazed no one has done that. I'm fixing the citation omission currently but it will take a few days.
Second, once that is done, if you know of other opinions then you can either bring it up on the discussion page or else try reworking it melding the new information with what was there before, or else rewriting and giving your reasons in the discussion. Your own personal opinion does not belong here. That would be original research, which Wikipedia does not publish.
I notice you did put in a few citations. That obliges me to consider that information. I just have not got to it yet. Meanwhile, if you want to be a serious editor, stop with the extraneous "warning" and personal opinions. I'm spending this time because you look as though you might turn into a serious editor. You would want to get yourself a user page. Don't identify yourself but put something of your qualifications and interests. Look at a bunch of user pages. Then you would leave me a message saying, thank you very much for your kind advice, Dave. Then I would say, welcome to Wikipedia. That would entitle you to be taken seriously by me and probably others also.
The encyclopedia pages are an encyclopedia not a personal forum. We have a forum on the discussion pages, like this one. If by chance you continue after this well-meant advice then I and others will have no choice to treat you like a vandal. I'm not an administrator but you will probably attract the attention of one and he/she might block you from Wikipedia depending on the severity of your vandalism.
My guess is we will shortly be seeing your user page. There is a handbook and a tutorial. Dave 14:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is one huge mess. The Eastern Linear Pottery Culture (for those understanding Slavic see e.g.
sk:kultúra s východnou lineárnou keramikou) is not the same as Bükk Culture (
sk:bukovohorská kultúra), the Bükk Culture follows after the Eastern Linear Pottery Culture and is a clearly distinct culture.
I finished revisitng. Everything, I believe, is cited. Any attempts to change it without reason or without citation or discussion will be reverted by me as vandalism. Formerly I found my words, which were paraphrasing some source, altered to make them say something else, adding total confusion to the article. You can't do that now, or if you do, you better make sure they say what the source says, unless you are going to discard it, in which case I would expect to see your reasoning. I plan to keep my eye on this article every minute.
As to my critics, I say this. Gosh I know that the very best person to write this article would have been a quadruple major in geology, biology, physics and archaeology. He (or she) would have at least one PhD and many years of experience as a field archaeologist, as well as being a published author. Furthermore, he (or she or it) ought to be fluent in Hungarian and all the west Slavic languages as well as in German. He must have read hundreds of books and articles specifically about the LBK.
But let's go a little further. Such an expert must have an audience suitable to his talent. We should all learn Hungarian so we can read all the Hungarian sources. In fact we should all become polyglots so we can assume whatever ethnic identity is convenient at the time. What we need here is a nation of Jason Bournes. English - bah. That is for children and infidels.
Moreover, Wikipedia must start being very careful about who they let edit. I suggest an application process where you are nominated by your congressman and then have to pass a Wiki exam to make sure you are a bona fide expert. Then the president may appoint you to Wikipedia so that you may perform great things for the world, especially for the enemies of English-speakers everywhere, who must be compensated for the fact that we exist.
Until we get this ideal system set up it looks as though we might have to use people like me on a contingency basis and endure the ordinary English-speaking oaf who might need some information, even though he belongs to an inferior culture and is no doubt an inferior person. I apologize to you superiors for the inconvenience of it all. I hope you will not be turned off by Wikipedia and get out of our hair but will hang around just to set us all straight! Dave 18:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following misleading and/or anachronistic images from the article:
Ycdkwm ( talk) 13:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Interesting article here [3]: Linear Pottery culture first to drink milk. Also this article needs a map. Jagdfeld ( talk) 14:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The tag has been on since 2010. It isn't discussed anywhere. The article looks pretty clean to me and has a ton of references. I note some relatively minor changes have been made. I conclude that whatever cleanup issues the placer of the tag had have been fixed, so I am taking off the tag. If you see more cleanup issues, please tag or fix specific locations. I do not think the overall tag is relevant.
Past heated editorial discussion (way too heated, and very insulting, not to be tolerated today) leads me to think the placer of the tag may not have had cleanup in mind, but was really having problems with some of the content. That does NOT take a cleanup tag. It would take clarification requests, or some statement saying I had relied too much on one author, or was confusing, or it was unbalanced, or my sources were improper. You need to direct your criticisms at the problem, not put on general tags that have nothing to do with what you think the problem is. State the problem. This time, please discuss the problem.
I remind you that referenced material generally stays unless you are criticising the validity of the references. You can't just take out referenced material because you personally do not agree with the idea. If there are other ideas, put them in! Or, suggest that someone put them in. Discussion, discussion, always discussion. As far as the attacks ad hominem are concerned, I will have no more of those. Previously I responded with sarcasm, but, that is not WP policy, either. WP requires civility and so does good manners. I think you will find me responsive. I go by the sources. You are required to go by them also. If that means there are alternative referenced points of view, by all means let's put them in. It isn't up to us to decide what is right or wrong in the field, only to present what has been decided. I must say, you were attacking the wrong man. You really want to attack the authors, but you must do that with additional sources or show that I was not following the source.
In summary, then, polite discussion please. Tags must be discussed, please. Please place relevant tags at the proper locations. If you want to grade the article, you can do that is discussion. I would appreciate your telling us how to improve it (politely). I see we are up to a class B here. At some point I will probably be back. The goal is to get to a class A. I welcome collaboration. Dave ( talk) 17:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I guess "event" is a little vague. However, pastoralism is not agriculture. They don't have the same date. Pastorals were wandering around feeding their animals on wild grasses long before they were able to grow any grasses on their own. So, pastoralism can't be an agricultural event. I'm taking the sentence out, though, for its vagueness. Also, if I have to explain it, it does not belong in the intro, which only introduces topics explained later. But, the topic is adequately covered later, so I wouldn't go out of my way to ensure exactly that sentence got in there. Economy of method. Dave ( talk) 18:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
On the wiki for Filipino inventions, it states pottery was first invented in the Philippines. That would mean pottery is only about 30 year old? 112.198.98.31 ( talk) 18:11, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
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The article currently repeatedly refers to "AVK". Is that another name for this culture? I get that impression, but it is never made clear in the article. Gunnar Larsson ( talk) 22:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
"The Middle Neolithic Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (AVK)
The Middle Neolithic of the Great Hungarian Plain is known by a variety of different names and acronyms in the literature – Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (ALP, or ALPC) in English, Alföldi Vonaldíszes Kerámia (AVK) in Hungarian (see Figure 3). All of these terms attempt to differentiate this Linear Pottery Culture from its Central and Northern European successors, the Linienbandkeramik (LBK) and Stichbandkeramik (SBK)."
In English, it's "Alföld Linear-Decorated Pottery" - AVK). And here is yet another culture from the article: "DVK (Dunatúl Vonaldiszes Kerámia, or Transdanubian Linear Pottery)"-- Quisqualis ( talk) 13:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
"Long houses were gathered into villages of five to eight houses, spaced about 20 m (66 ft) apart, occupying 300–1,250 acres (120–510 ha)." "Excavations at Oslonki in Poland revealed a large, fortified settlement (dating to 4300 BC, i.e., Late LBK), covering an area of 4,000 km2 (1,500 sq mi)." These figures must surely be wrong, but I have no idea what they should be corrected to. Andjamin ( talk) 23:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The drawing is wrong. In the outskirts of Vienna (Brunn am Gebirge/Wolfholz) a neolithic pre-LBK ('formative phase of LBK, Starcevo culture) settlement has been found by Peter Stadler. After about 200 years it changed to LBK. The settlement was dated 5500 BC.
https://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/peter_stadler
Goetz48 ( talk) 08:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
"... Comparison of the N1a HVSI sequences..." The link is cruelly misleading, because suggesting that this could only be an mtDNA which is wrong. Very bad sentence. I will not edit that because I am tired to work for nothing than being reverted by stupid beginners. 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C582:78E2:E07E:65F1 ( talk) 07:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
" is a major archaeological horizon of the European Neolithic, flourishing c. 5500–4500 BC" - this is cruelly misleading. Checked? 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:80B0:AF32:7658:C53A ( talk) 16:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Regrettably, here of all, a "genetics" paragraph is missing.In contrast, the misnomed map "Linear Pottery" is extremely misleading, confusing everything, in particular pottery in general with Neolithic in contrast to LBK. HJJHolm ( talk) 06:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
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Specifically, these:
My issue is that the article does not claim that the LBK is in anyway related to the steppe pastoral people so either the references seem misleading or the article incomplete. Anyone care to comment? Dryfee ( talk) 02:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I suggest all three articles be merged (someone has to do the editing) under a new heading, Linear Ware culture. The is the title used used by James P. Mallory in his article in the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. -- FourthAve 04:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
"...in Britain the term "Schnukeramik" is not used, ... but "Corded War". Complete consistency is impossible since it is commonplace for Anglophones to refer to the Linearbandkeramik [not in italics - note by Dammers], and the TRB, rather than their English translations." (Foutnote 24 on p. 24 of A. F. Harding, European Societies in the Bronze Age (Cambridge World Archaeology): http://assets.cambridge.org/052136/4779/sample/0521364779WSC00.pdf
and
Christensen (see below, under "No defense?", for citation) writes "Linear Pottery culture (LBK)..." in his first use and then uses "LBK." Kdammers 08:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The Germans discovered the culture and named it with their name. Not matter how you look at only that name is going to suffice for them, no matter what the language. It seems obscure to English speakers so they have made it sound better in English. We need to move along here. If that is our decision then we need to go with an English name, overriding the native Germans who also speak English. Let's take 4th avenue's suggestion at the top of the page and get going, hey? There are so many other cultures to be done and conclusions asserted or denied. Thanks so much. Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
No. We should stop shoving our poor translations down everyone else's throat. It won't hurt people to have "Linear Pottery Culture" redirect to the actual name of the group (Linearbandkeramik), as is accepted by everyone except the English.
Just like we use "kindergarten" or "doppelganger" or "wunderkind" and so on ...
-Forever IP
112.198.98.31 ( talk) 16:21, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
This has been a tough one. I have moved to Linear Band Ware culture simply because this is the name JP Mallory uses in EEIC. For those who contributed to the earlier articles, you are welcome to see what you can do with it. The Linearbandkeramic article was particularly good. -- FourthAve 21:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Europe in the Neolithic : The Creation of New Worlds (Cambridge World Archaeology) (Paperback) by Alasdair W. R. Whittle uses LBK. Cunliffe's Oxford Illustrated Prehistory of Europe has Linear Pottery culture (with LBK given in parentheses in the index). 211.225.34.182 01:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi, folks. This has got the makings of a good article. First of all, I would like to say that all these names are most inappropriate, as the scholars point out every once in a while. The ware is not linear and does not feature any linear decoration. Neither is it primarily banded, though some of it contains bands. No, appropriateness lies elsewhere, and that is the reason for this extended discussion. But, tradition speaks with a loud voice, as we all fear our fathers. So, we modify tradition until it suits us. I'm totally happy with Linear pottery culture. At least the decoration is incised lines, even though curved or in rectangular shapes. Even the little punctures are often in a line, seen from the side. I would have liked LBK because of its brevity, but Linear Banded Ware Culture or Linearbandkeramikkultur sound totally weird and foreign and make incomprehensible something that ought not to be. We aren't trying to use a specialized lingo designed only for specialists. They don't need any encyclopedia. They have the journals and each other.
So, I'd like to go on from here. I notice the article is interesting but a bit sketchy. Also, there is a major player not on the field, Marija Gimbutas. She only died in person, not in scholarship (which lives forever). I happen to have some of the books so I am going to try to fill this out a bit if that is OK with you. You'll see my edits there. Botteville 00:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
PS. Obviously, the one to work on is Linear Pottery culture, as it is better English and a better structure. Botteville 00:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm replacing the Eastern Linear etc. section. It wasn't saying much and what it said was wrong. There was no way I could fit it into the Bukk Culture as portrayed by Gimbutas. I did add a description of the Bukk Culture. Botteville 02:41, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
________________________________
This page is written from the victor's point of view. We now know that the LBK DECIMATED the indiganous paleolithic population within 300 years. Check out all the stuff Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's team came up with. Seriously. These people were genocidal on a serious level. Given the the only know decendents of Europe's first peoples (the Baske) are STILL fighting this war, i think a less one-sided page is in order.
-jordan f 23 October 2005
Write it, man, write it. Do you have a broken hand? Botteville 04:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure, but I think the LBK villages in the Leine valley had fencing around them (unless I'm mixing this up with Roessen culture). The nature of the fencing suggests "defense" against wild animals. On the other hand, Jonas Christensen (“Warfare in the European Neolithic,” Acta Archaeologica 75:142,144 ) discusses a number of enclosed LBK sites, including one that replaced a burned unenclosed site. He also mentions a site in Austria with a large number of skeletons with weapon-induced trauma (p. 136). I'm changing the text.
As it now (Man. 2006) stands, the text takes Gimbutas's ideas as gospel. While she might have been right, we should not give the false impression that this is the fully accept3ed view. Let's add so weasle words! Kdammers 03:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I did the Linear Pottery culture one hoping it would be a merger of the other two. Instead, it shows up as a third alternative. I was new here at the time, still am. I guess things do not just happen, we have to make them happen.
I notice 4th avenue has commanded some space at the top. His suggestion as I read it is to collect and unify all the material under a new name based on the British authority, Mallory. Someone has to do this work and then get rid of the old articles by deleting, I presume, everything but a redirect to the new article. Is that the way it works?
I suggest we get moving on this as there is a lot to say on early Europe and the fans can't say it because of this hold-up. Also, there is a comment above about some new evidence on the way the agriculturalists moved into Europe.
4th avenue, why don't you start to follow through on your excellent idea? I'm coming back on archaeological topics but I want to finish up the climatic periods and the stages of the Baltic, as it may impact this article. Let me say this. If after I do that no one has started the clearing-house article, I will do it, and also change the other articles to redirects. Any comments? Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Great picture, I love it. Does it belong in front? If it were going to be the only picture, I think so. However, I was hoping to find some pictures of the pottery to go in there. And then there are pictures of the country and the sites, if any can be found. No matter, the format can always be changed as need be, when the illustrations turn up. And, the Internet is ideal for illustrations. That is one of its strong points. Why not show off the fine lady in her best clothes? I assume what I see of this date is someone's working file, and that the double pic and the note next to the top pic will shortly disappear.
The name issue has been already discussed thorouhly several months ago. The correct English (i.e. non-German) name is and has always been Linear (Band) Pottery culture. We know that Mallory uses a different name and it is nice that he is so creative, but he is not the only person in the world and no linguist. I know what I am talking about and come frequently across that name. See e.g. Google book search, where you get 12 results for "linear ware" (and no for linear ware culture), while you get above 500 results for linear pottery. Or see e.g. this, where the word "linear ware" does not even appear: [1] Juro 02:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Bringing in some sourced information on the disappearance of a Linear Pottery physical type and Linear Pottery genetic features, I removed the following statements for being confusing, unsourced and maybe irrelevant:
While the first phrase is according to archeological facts, I consider it wrong and OR to forward such findings as an explanation to the previously raised questions of extinction without proper sourcing. The second phrase seems pretty confused and irrelevant to me, but worse, it seems to supply another unsourced explanation. To relate NDT to new immigrants is not consistent with a continuation of older cultures. Rokus01 17:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that I have more Wikisavvy I think I will revisit this article as it seems stable. I see it made class B. Why not shoot for Class A! Excelsior. Dave 23:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Here are some sandia cave biblio items I removed:
As far as I can see the cave has nothing whatever to do with this article. It is not mentioned in the article. This looks like irrelevant spam to me. Dave 12:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a "warning" that Hibben made up data on his biblio item. Check out Hibben at [2] and elsewhere. As far as I am concerned this allegation is libel. Unless you can back that up with a reference, leave it alone, will you? If in fact anyone finds a reference the best thing to do is take Hibben out. Otherwise I'm not going take him out on YOUR say-so, whoever you are. Since Hibben worked primarily in New Mexico I suspect whoever put the Sandia Cave biblio items in here also concerned himself with Hibben. You know, some Wikipedia articles call some authors of the past prevaricators and fabricators and they have a string of investigations and references to back them up. You have nothing, as far as I can see. Libel is a serious matter. Get out and stay out. Dave 12:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Listen, buddy, your peevish comments meritorious or not are not the way we do things. I don't want to be too tough on you because you might shortly become a newcomer and then I would want to welcome you. First of all let me say this. When I did this article I did not put in the footnotes and citations. This would call for a template saying, "this article does not cite references" or some such thing. I'm totally amazed no one has done that. I'm fixing the citation omission currently but it will take a few days.
Second, once that is done, if you know of other opinions then you can either bring it up on the discussion page or else try reworking it melding the new information with what was there before, or else rewriting and giving your reasons in the discussion. Your own personal opinion does not belong here. That would be original research, which Wikipedia does not publish.
I notice you did put in a few citations. That obliges me to consider that information. I just have not got to it yet. Meanwhile, if you want to be a serious editor, stop with the extraneous "warning" and personal opinions. I'm spending this time because you look as though you might turn into a serious editor. You would want to get yourself a user page. Don't identify yourself but put something of your qualifications and interests. Look at a bunch of user pages. Then you would leave me a message saying, thank you very much for your kind advice, Dave. Then I would say, welcome to Wikipedia. That would entitle you to be taken seriously by me and probably others also.
The encyclopedia pages are an encyclopedia not a personal forum. We have a forum on the discussion pages, like this one. If by chance you continue after this well-meant advice then I and others will have no choice to treat you like a vandal. I'm not an administrator but you will probably attract the attention of one and he/she might block you from Wikipedia depending on the severity of your vandalism.
My guess is we will shortly be seeing your user page. There is a handbook and a tutorial. Dave 14:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is one huge mess. The Eastern Linear Pottery Culture (for those understanding Slavic see e.g.
sk:kultúra s východnou lineárnou keramikou) is not the same as Bükk Culture (
sk:bukovohorská kultúra), the Bükk Culture follows after the Eastern Linear Pottery Culture and is a clearly distinct culture.
I finished revisitng. Everything, I believe, is cited. Any attempts to change it without reason or without citation or discussion will be reverted by me as vandalism. Formerly I found my words, which were paraphrasing some source, altered to make them say something else, adding total confusion to the article. You can't do that now, or if you do, you better make sure they say what the source says, unless you are going to discard it, in which case I would expect to see your reasoning. I plan to keep my eye on this article every minute.
As to my critics, I say this. Gosh I know that the very best person to write this article would have been a quadruple major in geology, biology, physics and archaeology. He (or she) would have at least one PhD and many years of experience as a field archaeologist, as well as being a published author. Furthermore, he (or she or it) ought to be fluent in Hungarian and all the west Slavic languages as well as in German. He must have read hundreds of books and articles specifically about the LBK.
But let's go a little further. Such an expert must have an audience suitable to his talent. We should all learn Hungarian so we can read all the Hungarian sources. In fact we should all become polyglots so we can assume whatever ethnic identity is convenient at the time. What we need here is a nation of Jason Bournes. English - bah. That is for children and infidels.
Moreover, Wikipedia must start being very careful about who they let edit. I suggest an application process where you are nominated by your congressman and then have to pass a Wiki exam to make sure you are a bona fide expert. Then the president may appoint you to Wikipedia so that you may perform great things for the world, especially for the enemies of English-speakers everywhere, who must be compensated for the fact that we exist.
Until we get this ideal system set up it looks as though we might have to use people like me on a contingency basis and endure the ordinary English-speaking oaf who might need some information, even though he belongs to an inferior culture and is no doubt an inferior person. I apologize to you superiors for the inconvenience of it all. I hope you will not be turned off by Wikipedia and get out of our hair but will hang around just to set us all straight! Dave 18:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following misleading and/or anachronistic images from the article:
Ycdkwm ( talk) 13:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Interesting article here [3]: Linear Pottery culture first to drink milk. Also this article needs a map. Jagdfeld ( talk) 14:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
The tag has been on since 2010. It isn't discussed anywhere. The article looks pretty clean to me and has a ton of references. I note some relatively minor changes have been made. I conclude that whatever cleanup issues the placer of the tag had have been fixed, so I am taking off the tag. If you see more cleanup issues, please tag or fix specific locations. I do not think the overall tag is relevant.
Past heated editorial discussion (way too heated, and very insulting, not to be tolerated today) leads me to think the placer of the tag may not have had cleanup in mind, but was really having problems with some of the content. That does NOT take a cleanup tag. It would take clarification requests, or some statement saying I had relied too much on one author, or was confusing, or it was unbalanced, or my sources were improper. You need to direct your criticisms at the problem, not put on general tags that have nothing to do with what you think the problem is. State the problem. This time, please discuss the problem.
I remind you that referenced material generally stays unless you are criticising the validity of the references. You can't just take out referenced material because you personally do not agree with the idea. If there are other ideas, put them in! Or, suggest that someone put them in. Discussion, discussion, always discussion. As far as the attacks ad hominem are concerned, I will have no more of those. Previously I responded with sarcasm, but, that is not WP policy, either. WP requires civility and so does good manners. I think you will find me responsive. I go by the sources. You are required to go by them also. If that means there are alternative referenced points of view, by all means let's put them in. It isn't up to us to decide what is right or wrong in the field, only to present what has been decided. I must say, you were attacking the wrong man. You really want to attack the authors, but you must do that with additional sources or show that I was not following the source.
In summary, then, polite discussion please. Tags must be discussed, please. Please place relevant tags at the proper locations. If you want to grade the article, you can do that is discussion. I would appreciate your telling us how to improve it (politely). I see we are up to a class B here. At some point I will probably be back. The goal is to get to a class A. I welcome collaboration. Dave ( talk) 17:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I guess "event" is a little vague. However, pastoralism is not agriculture. They don't have the same date. Pastorals were wandering around feeding their animals on wild grasses long before they were able to grow any grasses on their own. So, pastoralism can't be an agricultural event. I'm taking the sentence out, though, for its vagueness. Also, if I have to explain it, it does not belong in the intro, which only introduces topics explained later. But, the topic is adequately covered later, so I wouldn't go out of my way to ensure exactly that sentence got in there. Economy of method. Dave ( talk) 18:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
On the wiki for Filipino inventions, it states pottery was first invented in the Philippines. That would mean pottery is only about 30 year old? 112.198.98.31 ( talk) 18:11, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
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The article currently repeatedly refers to "AVK". Is that another name for this culture? I get that impression, but it is never made clear in the article. Gunnar Larsson ( talk) 22:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
"The Middle Neolithic Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (AVK)
The Middle Neolithic of the Great Hungarian Plain is known by a variety of different names and acronyms in the literature – Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (ALP, or ALPC) in English, Alföldi Vonaldíszes Kerámia (AVK) in Hungarian (see Figure 3). All of these terms attempt to differentiate this Linear Pottery Culture from its Central and Northern European successors, the Linienbandkeramik (LBK) and Stichbandkeramik (SBK)."
In English, it's "Alföld Linear-Decorated Pottery" - AVK). And here is yet another culture from the article: "DVK (Dunatúl Vonaldiszes Kerámia, or Transdanubian Linear Pottery)"-- Quisqualis ( talk) 13:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
"Long houses were gathered into villages of five to eight houses, spaced about 20 m (66 ft) apart, occupying 300–1,250 acres (120–510 ha)." "Excavations at Oslonki in Poland revealed a large, fortified settlement (dating to 4300 BC, i.e., Late LBK), covering an area of 4,000 km2 (1,500 sq mi)." These figures must surely be wrong, but I have no idea what they should be corrected to. Andjamin ( talk) 23:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The drawing is wrong. In the outskirts of Vienna (Brunn am Gebirge/Wolfholz) a neolithic pre-LBK ('formative phase of LBK, Starcevo culture) settlement has been found by Peter Stadler. After about 200 years it changed to LBK. The settlement was dated 5500 BC.
https://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/peter_stadler
Goetz48 ( talk) 08:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
"... Comparison of the N1a HVSI sequences..." The link is cruelly misleading, because suggesting that this could only be an mtDNA which is wrong. Very bad sentence. I will not edit that because I am tired to work for nothing than being reverted by stupid beginners. 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C582:78E2:E07E:65F1 ( talk) 07:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
" is a major archaeological horizon of the European Neolithic, flourishing c. 5500–4500 BC" - this is cruelly misleading. Checked? 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:80B0:AF32:7658:C53A ( talk) 16:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Regrettably, here of all, a "genetics" paragraph is missing.In contrast, the misnomed map "Linear Pottery" is extremely misleading, confusing everything, in particular pottery in general with Neolithic in contrast to LBK. HJJHolm ( talk) 06:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)