This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
@
X-Editor: it looks like you've removed the descriptors in the lead.
[1]
[2]. I've restored the agreed upon version
[3]. You're quoting
MOS:LABEL, but these descriptors are not labels (have a look at the examples in use in that guideline page). There's clear consensus in the above thread Derogatory (again) . I would like to replace it with "critical" about using often with hostile, mocking, or derogatory commentary
. Why did you remove this? You should discuss changes like this on talk; you were involved in the above thread so it's clear you have seen that discussion.
SiliconRed (he/him •
talk) 12:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
The account mocks and maligns content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms.as I did above.) SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 18:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
@
Wefa@
Shibbolethink@
Zaathras@
Korny O'Near@
Horse Eye's Back@
Siliconred@
NebY@
Aquillion@
Praxidicae thoughts on changing the second sentence to The account mocks and maligns content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms.
X-Editor (
talk) 03:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
A news story about the bomb threat made against Boston Children's Hospital mentions LoTT and calls the account "one of the primary drivers of the harassment campaign." Not sure what to do with this just now, but thought I should flag it. Cheers. Dumuzid ( talk) 21:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a dispute here about Libs of TikTok's statements about three other hospitals: "a Nebraska children's hospital" (actually Omaha Children's, I'm pretty sure), Phoenix Children's Hospital, and Lurie Children's Hospital, and whether we can call them false. The only source for this paragraph is these two Axios articles. The first article says very little about the statements about these hospitals. The second article, about Lurie Children's Hospital, says more but is in my opinion poorly written and ambiguous, maybe deliberately so: it's chock full of links, for example, but it studiously avoids linking to any of LoTT's tweets. Anyway, it does say there have been "false claims" about Lurie, but it never actually says that LoTT made any of these false claims. The article does list two "false claims", but neither are from LoTT: one is from "Billboard Chris" (not actually a false claim, just an opinion about age of consent, but that's another story), and another from the Twitter account "90sWillysWonder". So, to sum up, we have scant reporting on what LoTT has said about these three hospitals, and no evidence that anyone considers its statements on them to be false. Korny O'Near ( talk) 19:13, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Using all cites named in my comment. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 19:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)The account's targeting has led to harassment against other children's hospitals based on false claims, including a Nebraska children's hospital, a hospital in Omaha, Phoenix Children's Hospital, Lurie Children's Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others.
Libs of TikTok has made similar claims about a Nebraska children's hospital and has since targeted Phoenix Children's Hospital.(There are links on both "Nebraska children's hospital" and "Phoenix Children's Hospital" which make it clear exactly what is discussed and exactly which hospitals are being referenced.) [8]The false claims, according to Axios, Intomore, Daily Dot, WaPo, and Becker's Hospital Review, are broadly similar to: "the hospital "is now offering 'gender-affirming hysterectomies' for young girls." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:01, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Disinformation posted by transphobic and homophobic Twitter accounts about the types of gender-affirming medical care hospitals provide has prompted a deluge of harassment and threats against multiple children’s hospitals around the country. The hospitals being targeted include Boston Children’s Hospital, Phoenix Children’s Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others. The effort is part of the broader trend of hateful rhetoric, legislation, and physical attacks increasingly targeting the LGBTQ community nationwide.[9] Axios:
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer. The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.[10]
Anti-LGBTQ Twitter account Libs of TikTok, which is run by Chaya Raichik, is leading the charge against children’s hospitals.[11] I already quoted from Axios:
The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.[12] Stepping away from this thread now unless other editors with new ideas decide to agree with you. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 20:55, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
admitt[ed] that there's no evidence for it". Please do not state such things on behalf of other editors. If the evidence we have presented is not up to your particular standards, that is a different matter, and also why consensus is required on Wikipedia. Please remember to assume good faith and not assume what others think or believe. No one is proclaiming ownership over any article here. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 21:20, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer. Why it matters: The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.I think it's reasonable to read this as combining the harassment and false claims into one "thing" after the first mention, and therefore saying that the account is behind both; but at the very least we cannot avoid stating that Libs of TikTok has been driving a harassment campaign at these hospitals, since the article says so unambiguously in as many words and we have no reason to doubt it. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
are facing harassment and false claims, and that
The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok- to make a third statement: that false claims are being made by Libs of TikTok. Korny O'Near ( talk) 13:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
"false claims" is not backed up by the sources - see talk page for that last one. This attributes consensus which is clearly not met here; you are the only editor making this argument and three editors in this thread have rejected this opinion. This is a red flag in terms of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. Please abide by basic principles of editing here and do not apply contrived consensus to the article. At this point I am considering opening a notice on WP:ANI. Thanks. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 17:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The account's targeting has led to harassment against various children's hospitals nationwide based on false claims) could use some work in terms of legibility, but that's another story. Korny O'Near ( talk) 17:59, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The article's current wording to describe these three (now four) hospitals is this: The account's targeting has led to harassment against various children's hospitals nationwide based on false claims around gender affirming treatment
. This is an improvement in terms of matching what the sources say, but unfortunately it's not very comprehensible. It's not clear from this sentence who LoTT targeted (was it these four hospitals, or the hospitals mentioned earlier?), who made the harassment, or who made the false claims. It also makes it sounds like all of the relevant claims are false, which I don't think any of the sources say. (Also, "nationwide" is U.S.-centric wording.) I propose rewriting it to something like this: The account has criticized other children's hospitals in the U.S., including [list here], for allegedly providing gender-affirming treatment to under-18-year-olds. The criticism has led to "a flood of online harassment and phoned-in threats" at some of these hospitals.
The quote is from the WaPo article. Any thoughts?
Korny O'Near (
talk) 14:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
"The account made false claims about gender-affirming treatment at various U.S. children's hospitals—including Phoenix Children's Hospital, Lurie Children's Hospital, and UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh—leading to harrasment and threats."Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 14:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The account has targeted other hospitals with false claims about gender-affirming care, including a children's hospital in Omaha, Nebraska and UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh. Other pediatric facilities, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital and Phoenix Children’s Hospital, have been similarly harassed. [16] [17] [18]. We have three solid sources. WaPo describes Nebraska/Pittsburgh as directly targeted, DailyDot/Axios link harassment against Chicago/Phoenix to LoTT. ("Target", "harassment", and "false" are verbatim language in use by all three sources to describe what's going on.)
After gaining a large Twitter following in the spring as she baselessly accused LGBTQ teachers of being pedophiles and “groomers,” Raichik began criticizing children’s health facilities earlier this summer, targeting a hospital in Omaha in June and another in Pittsburgh in August. The attacks resulted in a flood of online harassment and phoned-in threats at both hospitals.[19]. "Attack", "target", "harass" etc. is more common in RS and to my reading more accurate language than "criticize", unless we're using that word similar to WaPo (i.e. supplanting with "attack" or "baselessly accused" or similar) . "Alleged" is outright incorrect; there's nothing to allege as RS are in complete agreement that all attacks have been based on falsehoods. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 14:27, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer.[20]
Disinformation posted by transphobic and homophobic Twitter accounts about the types of gender-affirming medical care hospitals provide has prompted a deluge of harassment and threats against multiple children’s hospitals around the country. The hospitals being targeted include Boston Children’s Hospital, Phoenix Children’s Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others.[21]
Hospitals have responded by releasing statements correcting the lies, contacting police, and locking down their social media accounts.[22] These sources are not mincing words. I have no idea how you've drawn that reading of the Daily Dot, unless you're conducting a WP:BADFAITH reading of their summary of WPATH guidelines. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 14:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I think there's a lot there to try to get a person to come to that conclusion.
I just read this sentence three or four times and frankly am a bit flabbergasted. So... you understand the conclusion of the reporting, but still refuse it? (Not to mention that you're just wrong, there are a lot of direct statements. Having ideas in two sentences next to each other is a valid way to communicate a point. Not everything must be in one sentence for it to be verifiable... which seems like what you're after. The quote referenced above has no ambiguity.)
SiliconRed (he/him •
talk) 20:09, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
This section of the article now states, The account has targeted other hospitals with false claims about gender-affirming care, including a children's hospital in Omaha, Nebraska, UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, and Phoenix Children's Hospital. Other pediatric facilities, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, have been similarly harassed.
So, to sum up, the article states as fact that Libs of TikTok has made at least one false claim each about three different children's hospitals. Other hospitals did not get a false claim, though they did get harassment (from whom?), which was similar (to what?). There's no point asking what the false claims are, since that would be original research, which is bad. Instead, we'll assume that the proximity of several sentences in one Daily Dot article means that we can conclusively state that there have been three or more false claims, despite the fact that the Daily Dot doesn't even mention one. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one.
Korny O'Near (
talk) 14:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one.Disagree, I think what we have is fine. It has been repeatedly pointed out that your interpretation of the sources is not in line with consensus of editors participating here. At this point, you appear to be WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion to get your preferred wording. You have made 30/67 replies to this discussion, from my count. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 16:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
puberty blockers are an allowed treatment, and the hospital clearly thinks they're beneficialIt is at this point that your opinion may be overshadowing what science/medicine actually knows. It's not just that the hospital "
thinks they're beneficial", the peer-reviewed scholarly research agrees. [24] [25] [26] (the same research publications we use to determine the consensus view on Wikipedia) Puberty blockers reduce suicidality (and suicide attempts/successes) stretching on into adulthood, improve affect and psychological functioning, and improve social life on objective measures. These things are not "supposition" or "hunches." We have peer reviewed scholarly publications which are then summarized in systematic reviews demonstrating that puberty blockers provide benefit to the well-defined subpopulation of children with gender dysphoria. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
relating to the publicizing of a product, organization, or venture so as to increase sales or public awarenessBy virtue of that definition, every single CDC video, every single government video, on any drug, treatment, or surgery is "promotional." A definition so broad as to lose all difference from "educational." By that definition, a video about heroin and its effects on the body would be "promotional." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
designed to advertise something in order to sell it
the act of furthering the growth or development of something, especially: the furtherance of the acceptance and sale of merchandise through advertising, publicity, or discounting
material, events, or ideas are designed to increase the sales of a product or service.
FYI, I have opened an ANI on this topic at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Continuous_BLUDGEONing,_IDHT,_and_OFFTOPIC_commentary_on_Talk:Libs_of_TikTok. Thanks. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 17:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
|
Libs of TikTok has appropriated the term "groomer" as a pejorative to characterize...
A single media source which is part of a larger trend, does not itself "appropriate" a term. They may popularize or facilitate its increased use, but they do not "appropriate" it. And, even if there are sources claiming such appropriation, influencing the widespread use of a word in a particular manner is not what the meaning of the word "appropriate" is. Also, the LOTT Twitter stream (its primary forum) is not the genesis of the pejorative implications attaching to the word "groomer" and even our Wiki article
does not claim it was.
We should re-write this sentence.
Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (
talk) 14:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok has helped popularize the pejorative term "groomer", which is aimed at...seems WP:DUH that language used by LoTT would be popular among people who follow it, and RS agree that the term was generally popularized by the account. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 19:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok helped popularize use of the term 'groomer' as a pejorative for LGBT people […], to better reflect that child grooming predates the antiqueer use of the term. Madeline ( part of me) 20:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok helped popularize use of the term 'groomer' as a pejorative for LGBT people […]— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
As described by the SF Chronicle, Slate, the Advocate, and LA Blade......" The list becomes overly long and cumbersome. You would instead say "
Described by several media outlets as..." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 15:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested.When high-quality sources make sources that are uncontested in WP:RSes, we are required to cover it as fact. Attributing such statements introduces WP:POV into the article by incorrectly implying that factual coverage from high-quality sources is mere opinion. -- Aquillion ( talk) 13:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc.And per WP:LABEL {{Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.}}. It is not appropriate to treat a value laden label like it is a factual assertion and not a value judgement. -- Kyohyi ( talk) 13:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
WP:LABEL really doesn't apply on a talk page. Other editors have already made this point to you, though -- so at this point you're just WP:IDHT when it comes to your application of policy. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Libs of TikTok has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add citation to the sentence including "falsely claiming" Jbaird1 ( talk) 06:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. Covered in detail under
Libs of TikTok#Children's hospital tweets (June 2022–August 2022). Per
MOS:LEADCITE we don't always cite everything in the lede since it is going to be elaborated on further in the article. If there is consensus to include sources it would be an easy thing to just repeat one or two of them.
Cannolis (
talk) 06:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)Such a claim after voice recordings from hospital staff indicate the opposite should be cited Jbaird1 ( talk) 06:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
According to the linked sources, the account posted phone calls of two employees verbally confirming that 1) those operations take place, 2) some departments will not take patients older than 18, and 3) they have personally seen patients even younger than 16 get those operations. LoTT also linked to the CNH website where it was said those surgeries are available to minors.
To play devil's advocate, the employees might've been lying. There might even have been some freak accident that caused someone to mistakenly set up a website for the Child Hospital's "Center for Gender Surgery" (complete with stock photos of children), and for some reason put incorrect information there, which, for months, nobody noticed until LoTT did, but that might be a bit of a stretch.
In any case, putting this wording in the lede is deliberate disinformation.
I do understand that the idea behind Wikipedia is to provide a synopsis on the media consensus, but if that's the way things are going to be from now on, I don't think Wikipedia will survive. RRorg ( talk) 13:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@ X-Editor: I don't want to start an edit war, and I think this content should be discussed here before even being considered for addition on the namespace. For context I am referring to [28]. You're suggesting we put in a quote from a WP:FOXNEWS host right at the top of the section, a quote where he is not even discussing the article subject, Libs of TikTok, and there is no connection to Libs of TikTok made by the citation, and in fact the cite notes that the response was spurred by a different commentator entirely, Matt Walsh.
This is clearly not WP:DUE and has no bearing when put in a response section where other attributed quotes, which all lean in the opposite direction, come from reputable sources on the subject matter, including local law enforcement, the FBI, and multiple academics. It's bad, bad WP:BALANCE. The Carlson quote is tangentially related at best and has no place at the top of this section. I'd encourage a WP:SELFREVERT unless there is consensus after discussion to include this quote in the section. I am strongly opposed. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 00:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Carlson rallied against the Vanderbilt University Medical Center (VUMC) in Tennessee after right-wing pundit Matt Walsh posted a series of tweets accusing the hospital of opening its transgender healthcare clinic because it was profitable.[29] Generally my issues are outlined above and I don't think I can add much to this discussion unless other editors have thoughts so I'll step aside for now. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 01:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
As of today libs of tik tok has 1.4 millions followers, terrible!. Anyway, could someone change that in the article, please. 186.169.194.211 ( talk) 02:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there a consensus to link to the libs of Tiktok twitter page? It clearly falls under WP:PROBLEMLINKS. Is there any good reason to keep it in? Only one I can think of is "it's easy to find on your own" and I don't necessarily think that's enough to keep it around, considering the nature of the activities they're engaged in. Licks-rocks ( talk) 10:34, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Raichik remained anonymous until her identity was revealed in April 2022 by both software developer Travis Brown and Washington Post journalist Taylor Lorenz. Some conservatives accused Lorenz of doxxing as a result, while others defended Lorenz from criticism
You can't give a 1:1 description of doxing and then claim that it wasn't. recentlyryan RecentlyRyan 09:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
another day, another SPA starting a fake debate over a completely wrong interpretation of NPOV
Dronebogus (
talk) 10:05, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
|
---|
How is this article any way "neutral"? If I were to say "Clearly this article is written from a radical leftists point of view." I am no longer being neutral, I am labeling the author with an opinion and setting the reader in a specific way of thinking before they have even read what I have to say. I have no idea if the author is an extremist with their politics, so its unfair to lable them as extreme. The term "Far Right" has incredibly negative connotations associated with it (as does the term "Radical Left"). So I feel it shouldn't be included in the article. In fact the terms "Far Right" and "Radical Left" should never be used as a descriptor unless said person has publicly stated they are in one of these categories. Far right and radical left are labels created by the opposing party in an attempt to discredit anyone givin such a lable, thereby giving the impression that they are "extreme" or don't represent the main stream views of their respective parties. If most of the people on the right or left agree with the view point of someone labeled "far right" or "radical left", then the person with said label is just right or left. There is nothing extreme or radical with their view point (at least within their own party) if most others in the party hold the same point of view. And Libs of Tik Tok isn't even presenting its own point of view when posting videos. It is literally just reposting the videos of other creators while adding no original content or commentary. Now the comments section on any of Libs of Tik Tok is an entirely different story. There are many people who post in the comments section who definitely hold extreme views, but again thats the comments section and if you've ever been on the internet before you'll know that any video on the internet will have its share of extremist down in the comments. Druskeet ( talk) 05:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Wow. I really wish you read my entire post, because that statement says alot and I now have a completely different understanding of Wikipedia. There's alot to unpack from such a short statement but Im going to start with the important part: "..we follow sources, not opinions." Do you really not see what you just said??? Claiming LoTT is far right IS AN OPINION. So any sorces you follow or quote from that say LoTT is far right, are also just giving there opinions. The other part, and the most alarming part that proves you're not actually looking for neutrality: "Unfortunately (for you)..."
Nothing I wrote was insulting or derogatory towards anyone so the only reason to insult me would be that you found my idea insulting. If my idea was just wrong you'd simply explain why I was wrong but that's not what happened. My idea was offensive to you so you felt like you could be offensive to me, and that just proves you dont care about neutrality. A truly neutral sorce reports only fact, and all facts, even if those facts are not in alignment with their own personal views. I realize what said was lengthy, but I felt everything I said, needed to be said in order to show that I was coming from a neutral point of view as well as show why terms like "far right" and "radical left" are inflammatory and definitely dont reflect neutrality. Druskeet ( talk) 07:46, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
And in case you didn't read that. Terms like "Far Right" and "Radical Left" are opinions that set the reader in a specific frame of mind. I am against both terms. They should not be used to describe a person or institution (unless said person or institution specifically claims the label) on site that most people view as FACT only. Most people believe this site is like the encyclopedia (it used to be) in that no opinions are givin and therefore anything they read can be taken as fact. Druskeet ( talk) 08:02, 26 November 2022 (UTC) Well then the word neutrality shouldnt be used. Because again, up until now, I like most other people assuming Wikipedia to be a neutral sorce of information where you could get the facts. Druskeet ( talk) 08:06, 26 November 2022 (UTC) |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
@
X-Editor: it looks like you've removed the descriptors in the lead.
[1]
[2]. I've restored the agreed upon version
[3]. You're quoting
MOS:LABEL, but these descriptors are not labels (have a look at the examples in use in that guideline page). There's clear consensus in the above thread Derogatory (again) . I would like to replace it with "critical" about using often with hostile, mocking, or derogatory commentary
. Why did you remove this? You should discuss changes like this on talk; you were involved in the above thread so it's clear you have seen that discussion.
SiliconRed (he/him •
talk) 12:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
The account mocks and maligns content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms.as I did above.) SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 18:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
@
Wefa@
Shibbolethink@
Zaathras@
Korny O'Near@
Horse Eye's Back@
Siliconred@
NebY@
Aquillion@
Praxidicae thoughts on changing the second sentence to The account mocks and maligns content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms.
X-Editor (
talk) 03:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
A news story about the bomb threat made against Boston Children's Hospital mentions LoTT and calls the account "one of the primary drivers of the harassment campaign." Not sure what to do with this just now, but thought I should flag it. Cheers. Dumuzid ( talk) 21:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a dispute here about Libs of TikTok's statements about three other hospitals: "a Nebraska children's hospital" (actually Omaha Children's, I'm pretty sure), Phoenix Children's Hospital, and Lurie Children's Hospital, and whether we can call them false. The only source for this paragraph is these two Axios articles. The first article says very little about the statements about these hospitals. The second article, about Lurie Children's Hospital, says more but is in my opinion poorly written and ambiguous, maybe deliberately so: it's chock full of links, for example, but it studiously avoids linking to any of LoTT's tweets. Anyway, it does say there have been "false claims" about Lurie, but it never actually says that LoTT made any of these false claims. The article does list two "false claims", but neither are from LoTT: one is from "Billboard Chris" (not actually a false claim, just an opinion about age of consent, but that's another story), and another from the Twitter account "90sWillysWonder". So, to sum up, we have scant reporting on what LoTT has said about these three hospitals, and no evidence that anyone considers its statements on them to be false. Korny O'Near ( talk) 19:13, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Using all cites named in my comment. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 19:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)The account's targeting has led to harassment against other children's hospitals based on false claims, including a Nebraska children's hospital, a hospital in Omaha, Phoenix Children's Hospital, Lurie Children's Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others.
Libs of TikTok has made similar claims about a Nebraska children's hospital and has since targeted Phoenix Children's Hospital.(There are links on both "Nebraska children's hospital" and "Phoenix Children's Hospital" which make it clear exactly what is discussed and exactly which hospitals are being referenced.) [8]The false claims, according to Axios, Intomore, Daily Dot, WaPo, and Becker's Hospital Review, are broadly similar to: "the hospital "is now offering 'gender-affirming hysterectomies' for young girls." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:01, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Disinformation posted by transphobic and homophobic Twitter accounts about the types of gender-affirming medical care hospitals provide has prompted a deluge of harassment and threats against multiple children’s hospitals around the country. The hospitals being targeted include Boston Children’s Hospital, Phoenix Children’s Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others. The effort is part of the broader trend of hateful rhetoric, legislation, and physical attacks increasingly targeting the LGBTQ community nationwide.[9] Axios:
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer. The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.[10]
Anti-LGBTQ Twitter account Libs of TikTok, which is run by Chaya Raichik, is leading the charge against children’s hospitals.[11] I already quoted from Axios:
The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.[12] Stepping away from this thread now unless other editors with new ideas decide to agree with you. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 20:55, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
admitt[ed] that there's no evidence for it". Please do not state such things on behalf of other editors. If the evidence we have presented is not up to your particular standards, that is a different matter, and also why consensus is required on Wikipedia. Please remember to assume good faith and not assume what others think or believe. No one is proclaiming ownership over any article here. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 21:20, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer. Why it matters: The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok, a Twitter account whose posts are amplified by the conservative group Awake Illinois.I think it's reasonable to read this as combining the harassment and false claims into one "thing" after the first mention, and therefore saying that the account is behind both; but at the very least we cannot avoid stating that Libs of TikTok has been driving a harassment campaign at these hospitals, since the article says so unambiguously in as many words and we have no reason to doubt it. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
are facing harassment and false claims, and that
The harassment is driven by Libs of TikTok- to make a third statement: that false claims are being made by Libs of TikTok. Korny O'Near ( talk) 13:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
"false claims" is not backed up by the sources - see talk page for that last one. This attributes consensus which is clearly not met here; you are the only editor making this argument and three editors in this thread have rejected this opinion. This is a red flag in terms of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. Please abide by basic principles of editing here and do not apply contrived consensus to the article. At this point I am considering opening a notice on WP:ANI. Thanks. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 17:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The account's targeting has led to harassment against various children's hospitals nationwide based on false claims) could use some work in terms of legibility, but that's another story. Korny O'Near ( talk) 17:59, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The article's current wording to describe these three (now four) hospitals is this: The account's targeting has led to harassment against various children's hospitals nationwide based on false claims around gender affirming treatment
. This is an improvement in terms of matching what the sources say, but unfortunately it's not very comprehensible. It's not clear from this sentence who LoTT targeted (was it these four hospitals, or the hospitals mentioned earlier?), who made the harassment, or who made the false claims. It also makes it sounds like all of the relevant claims are false, which I don't think any of the sources say. (Also, "nationwide" is U.S.-centric wording.) I propose rewriting it to something like this: The account has criticized other children's hospitals in the U.S., including [list here], for allegedly providing gender-affirming treatment to under-18-year-olds. The criticism has led to "a flood of online harassment and phoned-in threats" at some of these hospitals.
The quote is from the WaPo article. Any thoughts?
Korny O'Near (
talk) 14:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
"The account made false claims about gender-affirming treatment at various U.S. children's hospitals—including Phoenix Children's Hospital, Lurie Children's Hospital, and UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh—leading to harrasment and threats."Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 14:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The account has targeted other hospitals with false claims about gender-affirming care, including a children's hospital in Omaha, Nebraska and UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh. Other pediatric facilities, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital and Phoenix Children’s Hospital, have been similarly harassed. [16] [17] [18]. We have three solid sources. WaPo describes Nebraska/Pittsburgh as directly targeted, DailyDot/Axios link harassment against Chicago/Phoenix to LoTT. ("Target", "harassment", and "false" are verbatim language in use by all three sources to describe what's going on.)
After gaining a large Twitter following in the spring as she baselessly accused LGBTQ teachers of being pedophiles and “groomers,” Raichik began criticizing children’s health facilities earlier this summer, targeting a hospital in Omaha in June and another in Pittsburgh in August. The attacks resulted in a flood of online harassment and phoned-in threats at both hospitals.[19]. "Attack", "target", "harass" etc. is more common in RS and to my reading more accurate language than "criticize", unless we're using that word similar to WaPo (i.e. supplanting with "attack" or "baselessly accused" or similar) . "Alleged" is outright incorrect; there's nothing to allege as RS are in complete agreement that all attacks have been based on falsehoods. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 14:27, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Pediatric facilities nationwide, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, are facing harassment and false claims about the gender-affirming care they offer.[20]
Disinformation posted by transphobic and homophobic Twitter accounts about the types of gender-affirming medical care hospitals provide has prompted a deluge of harassment and threats against multiple children’s hospitals around the country. The hospitals being targeted include Boston Children’s Hospital, Phoenix Children’s Hospital, UPMC Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, and others.[21]
Hospitals have responded by releasing statements correcting the lies, contacting police, and locking down their social media accounts.[22] These sources are not mincing words. I have no idea how you've drawn that reading of the Daily Dot, unless you're conducting a WP:BADFAITH reading of their summary of WPATH guidelines. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 14:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I think there's a lot there to try to get a person to come to that conclusion.
I just read this sentence three or four times and frankly am a bit flabbergasted. So... you understand the conclusion of the reporting, but still refuse it? (Not to mention that you're just wrong, there are a lot of direct statements. Having ideas in two sentences next to each other is a valid way to communicate a point. Not everything must be in one sentence for it to be verifiable... which seems like what you're after. The quote referenced above has no ambiguity.)
SiliconRed (he/him •
talk) 20:09, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
This section of the article now states, The account has targeted other hospitals with false claims about gender-affirming care, including a children's hospital in Omaha, Nebraska, UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, and Phoenix Children's Hospital. Other pediatric facilities, including Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, have been similarly harassed.
So, to sum up, the article states as fact that Libs of TikTok has made at least one false claim each about three different children's hospitals. Other hospitals did not get a false claim, though they did get harassment (from whom?), which was similar (to what?). There's no point asking what the false claims are, since that would be original research, which is bad. Instead, we'll assume that the proximity of several sentences in one Daily Dot article means that we can conclusively state that there have been three or more false claims, despite the fact that the Daily Dot doesn't even mention one. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one.
Korny O'Near (
talk) 14:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one.Disagree, I think what we have is fine. It has been repeatedly pointed out that your interpretation of the sources is not in line with consensus of editors participating here. At this point, you appear to be WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion to get your preferred wording. You have made 30/67 replies to this discussion, from my count. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 16:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
puberty blockers are an allowed treatment, and the hospital clearly thinks they're beneficialIt is at this point that your opinion may be overshadowing what science/medicine actually knows. It's not just that the hospital "
thinks they're beneficial", the peer-reviewed scholarly research agrees. [24] [25] [26] (the same research publications we use to determine the consensus view on Wikipedia) Puberty blockers reduce suicidality (and suicide attempts/successes) stretching on into adulthood, improve affect and psychological functioning, and improve social life on objective measures. These things are not "supposition" or "hunches." We have peer reviewed scholarly publications which are then summarized in systematic reviews demonstrating that puberty blockers provide benefit to the well-defined subpopulation of children with gender dysphoria. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
relating to the publicizing of a product, organization, or venture so as to increase sales or public awarenessBy virtue of that definition, every single CDC video, every single government video, on any drug, treatment, or surgery is "promotional." A definition so broad as to lose all difference from "educational." By that definition, a video about heroin and its effects on the body would be "promotional." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
designed to advertise something in order to sell it
the act of furthering the growth or development of something, especially: the furtherance of the acceptance and sale of merchandise through advertising, publicity, or discounting
material, events, or ideas are designed to increase the sales of a product or service.
FYI, I have opened an ANI on this topic at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Continuous_BLUDGEONing,_IDHT,_and_OFFTOPIC_commentary_on_Talk:Libs_of_TikTok. Thanks. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 17:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
|
Libs of TikTok has appropriated the term "groomer" as a pejorative to characterize...
A single media source which is part of a larger trend, does not itself "appropriate" a term. They may popularize or facilitate its increased use, but they do not "appropriate" it. And, even if there are sources claiming such appropriation, influencing the widespread use of a word in a particular manner is not what the meaning of the word "appropriate" is. Also, the LOTT Twitter stream (its primary forum) is not the genesis of the pejorative implications attaching to the word "groomer" and even our Wiki article
does not claim it was.
We should re-write this sentence.
Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (
talk) 14:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok has helped popularize the pejorative term "groomer", which is aimed at...seems WP:DUH that language used by LoTT would be popular among people who follow it, and RS agree that the term was generally popularized by the account. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 19:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok helped popularize use of the term 'groomer' as a pejorative for LGBT people […], to better reflect that child grooming predates the antiqueer use of the term. Madeline ( part of me) 20:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Libs of TikTok helped popularize use of the term 'groomer' as a pejorative for LGBT people […]— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
As described by the SF Chronicle, Slate, the Advocate, and LA Blade......" The list becomes overly long and cumbersome. You would instead say "
Described by several media outlets as..." — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 15:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested.When high-quality sources make sources that are uncontested in WP:RSes, we are required to cover it as fact. Attributing such statements introduces WP:POV into the article by incorrectly implying that factual coverage from high-quality sources is mere opinion. -- Aquillion ( talk) 13:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc.And per WP:LABEL {{Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.}}. It is not appropriate to treat a value laden label like it is a factual assertion and not a value judgement. -- Kyohyi ( talk) 13:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
WP:LABEL really doesn't apply on a talk page. Other editors have already made this point to you, though -- so at this point you're just WP:IDHT when it comes to your application of policy. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 13:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Libs of TikTok has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add citation to the sentence including "falsely claiming" Jbaird1 ( talk) 06:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. Covered in detail under
Libs of TikTok#Children's hospital tweets (June 2022–August 2022). Per
MOS:LEADCITE we don't always cite everything in the lede since it is going to be elaborated on further in the article. If there is consensus to include sources it would be an easy thing to just repeat one or two of them.
Cannolis (
talk) 06:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)Such a claim after voice recordings from hospital staff indicate the opposite should be cited Jbaird1 ( talk) 06:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
According to the linked sources, the account posted phone calls of two employees verbally confirming that 1) those operations take place, 2) some departments will not take patients older than 18, and 3) they have personally seen patients even younger than 16 get those operations. LoTT also linked to the CNH website where it was said those surgeries are available to minors.
To play devil's advocate, the employees might've been lying. There might even have been some freak accident that caused someone to mistakenly set up a website for the Child Hospital's "Center for Gender Surgery" (complete with stock photos of children), and for some reason put incorrect information there, which, for months, nobody noticed until LoTT did, but that might be a bit of a stretch.
In any case, putting this wording in the lede is deliberate disinformation.
I do understand that the idea behind Wikipedia is to provide a synopsis on the media consensus, but if that's the way things are going to be from now on, I don't think Wikipedia will survive. RRorg ( talk) 13:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@ X-Editor: I don't want to start an edit war, and I think this content should be discussed here before even being considered for addition on the namespace. For context I am referring to [28]. You're suggesting we put in a quote from a WP:FOXNEWS host right at the top of the section, a quote where he is not even discussing the article subject, Libs of TikTok, and there is no connection to Libs of TikTok made by the citation, and in fact the cite notes that the response was spurred by a different commentator entirely, Matt Walsh.
This is clearly not WP:DUE and has no bearing when put in a response section where other attributed quotes, which all lean in the opposite direction, come from reputable sources on the subject matter, including local law enforcement, the FBI, and multiple academics. It's bad, bad WP:BALANCE. The Carlson quote is tangentially related at best and has no place at the top of this section. I'd encourage a WP:SELFREVERT unless there is consensus after discussion to include this quote in the section. I am strongly opposed. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 00:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Carlson rallied against the Vanderbilt University Medical Center (VUMC) in Tennessee after right-wing pundit Matt Walsh posted a series of tweets accusing the hospital of opening its transgender healthcare clinic because it was profitable.[29] Generally my issues are outlined above and I don't think I can add much to this discussion unless other editors have thoughts so I'll step aside for now. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 01:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
As of today libs of tik tok has 1.4 millions followers, terrible!. Anyway, could someone change that in the article, please. 186.169.194.211 ( talk) 02:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there a consensus to link to the libs of Tiktok twitter page? It clearly falls under WP:PROBLEMLINKS. Is there any good reason to keep it in? Only one I can think of is "it's easy to find on your own" and I don't necessarily think that's enough to keep it around, considering the nature of the activities they're engaged in. Licks-rocks ( talk) 10:34, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Raichik remained anonymous until her identity was revealed in April 2022 by both software developer Travis Brown and Washington Post journalist Taylor Lorenz. Some conservatives accused Lorenz of doxxing as a result, while others defended Lorenz from criticism
You can't give a 1:1 description of doxing and then claim that it wasn't. recentlyryan RecentlyRyan 09:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
another day, another SPA starting a fake debate over a completely wrong interpretation of NPOV
Dronebogus (
talk) 10:05, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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How is this article any way "neutral"? If I were to say "Clearly this article is written from a radical leftists point of view." I am no longer being neutral, I am labeling the author with an opinion and setting the reader in a specific way of thinking before they have even read what I have to say. I have no idea if the author is an extremist with their politics, so its unfair to lable them as extreme. The term "Far Right" has incredibly negative connotations associated with it (as does the term "Radical Left"). So I feel it shouldn't be included in the article. In fact the terms "Far Right" and "Radical Left" should never be used as a descriptor unless said person has publicly stated they are in one of these categories. Far right and radical left are labels created by the opposing party in an attempt to discredit anyone givin such a lable, thereby giving the impression that they are "extreme" or don't represent the main stream views of their respective parties. If most of the people on the right or left agree with the view point of someone labeled "far right" or "radical left", then the person with said label is just right or left. There is nothing extreme or radical with their view point (at least within their own party) if most others in the party hold the same point of view. And Libs of Tik Tok isn't even presenting its own point of view when posting videos. It is literally just reposting the videos of other creators while adding no original content or commentary. Now the comments section on any of Libs of Tik Tok is an entirely different story. There are many people who post in the comments section who definitely hold extreme views, but again thats the comments section and if you've ever been on the internet before you'll know that any video on the internet will have its share of extremist down in the comments. Druskeet ( talk) 05:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Wow. I really wish you read my entire post, because that statement says alot and I now have a completely different understanding of Wikipedia. There's alot to unpack from such a short statement but Im going to start with the important part: "..we follow sources, not opinions." Do you really not see what you just said??? Claiming LoTT is far right IS AN OPINION. So any sorces you follow or quote from that say LoTT is far right, are also just giving there opinions. The other part, and the most alarming part that proves you're not actually looking for neutrality: "Unfortunately (for you)..."
Nothing I wrote was insulting or derogatory towards anyone so the only reason to insult me would be that you found my idea insulting. If my idea was just wrong you'd simply explain why I was wrong but that's not what happened. My idea was offensive to you so you felt like you could be offensive to me, and that just proves you dont care about neutrality. A truly neutral sorce reports only fact, and all facts, even if those facts are not in alignment with their own personal views. I realize what said was lengthy, but I felt everything I said, needed to be said in order to show that I was coming from a neutral point of view as well as show why terms like "far right" and "radical left" are inflammatory and definitely dont reflect neutrality. Druskeet ( talk) 07:46, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
And in case you didn't read that. Terms like "Far Right" and "Radical Left" are opinions that set the reader in a specific frame of mind. I am against both terms. They should not be used to describe a person or institution (unless said person or institution specifically claims the label) on site that most people view as FACT only. Most people believe this site is like the encyclopedia (it used to be) in that no opinions are givin and therefore anything they read can be taken as fact. Druskeet ( talk) 08:02, 26 November 2022 (UTC) Well then the word neutrality shouldnt be used. Because again, up until now, I like most other people assuming Wikipedia to be a neutral sorce of information where you could get the facts. Druskeet ( talk) 08:06, 26 November 2022 (UTC) |