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Lemon & Paeroa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Lemon & Paeroa was nominated as a Agriculture, food and drink good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (September 30, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This article was nominated for merging in the past. The result of the discussion was not merged. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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L& P is not uncoloured!!!!!!. By my last check it was a browny yellow colour :-)
I'm not sure the statements about L&P's availability are entirely accurate. For some reason I managed to get one out of a Coffs Harbour Base hospital cold drinks machine in mid 2007. Perhaps it's becoming more widely available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.201.159 ( talk) 15:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
The statement The paradoxical advertising slogan " World famous in New Zealand" has become a popular New Zealand saying meaning very well known locally, but not receiving the recognition it deserves overseas is very dubious and, unless a reference can be provided, which i doubt it can, this statement has no founding and must be removed. Taifar ious1 06:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I find this is exactly what the phase is used for, often in response to a FOB Kiwi's surprise that their favourite brand is not available in the rest of the world. As in "I think you might find that Watties tomato sauce / Hokey Pokey icecream / K-bars are 'World famous in New Zealand' mate!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.215.11 ( talk) 10:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
L&P is actually available in quite a number of supermarkets, convenience stores, and petrol/service stations - not just in NZ speciality stores. Someone should amend this part of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.205.95 ( talk) 06:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the interpretation of the author re 'world famous in NZ'. Recommend that a marketing-related source of the phrase be found which clearly explains the meaning with respect to L&P. 195.75.244.91 ( talk) 12:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)Brian
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 23:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
L&P is definitely not just lemon and fizzy mineral water, it doesn't taste like lemonade. So there must be another ingredient, which I think Coca Cola claims is "secret". I don't know if anyone else has an idea, but my personal theory is that it's manuka extract (I have searched google and can't find any debate about it). If you've made fresh manuka tea (with sugar though), there's definitely something reminiscent about the taste. Re: the debate on "world famous in New Zealand", I agree with the article, that's my understanding of the phrase - I certainly can't see how it's "very dubious". I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on what else it might mean though. Miasmic ( talk) 23:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I propose merging World famous in New Zealand into Lemon & Paeroa. Article doesn't demonstrate that it has a widespread enough usage outside of L&P marketing to have its own article. This article also has a bit of a dubious claim, "'World famous in New Zealand' has become a popular New Zealand saying" (which is unsourced). I've lived in New Zealand my entire life and have never heard someone use this phrase. Panamitsu (talk) Please ping on reply
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Rjjiii ( talk · contribs) 09:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
In the next week or so, I will look over the article. Before I start, I notice there are 6 inline cleanup tags (2 when and 4 citation needed].
Rjjiii(
talk) 09:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
I find issues with the prose throughout the article. I'm going to note some examples below, but this isn't exhaustive. I'll put the article on hold if you want to try a copyedit. It may be a better idea to ask another editor for a copyedit of the article or to step away for a couple of weeks and come back with fresh eyes. Here are several examples:
No one had thought of commercialising it." This confuses me because I don't know what time frame it's talking about, why people thought (or did not think) that, and how it could be true when it's immediately followed by the history of commercialization. The sources mention (a) specifically when the water was sold as "table water", (b) that individuals were bottling it for themselves, and (c) that at least some people did not think there was a market for it at one point.
This factory sold water rather than Lemon & Paeroa, which was known as "Paeroa and Lemon" at the time—it is not clear when "Paeroa and Lemon" switched to "Lemon and Paeroa", it was marketed using both names in the late 1940s." I think the information presented here is straightforward, but this sentence structure is very complex, beyond the college graduate reading level. It was not clear to me that two products were being sold until I read the source. I also don't know if the P&L to L&P name change needs to be mentioned if we can't say anything about it.
It was 1934 when Lemon & Paeroa started being manufactured in Paeroa rather than Auckland." At this point in the article, it has been said that some type of water was shipped from Paeroa to Auckland. Since no mention was made of Lemon and Paeroa being made in Auckland, or the distinction between the mineral water and L&P, it was really unclear what this sentence meant.
At some point there was a pipe that went from the factory to the Railway Reserve which allowed the public to drink the water using a hand pump." After doing a quick search, a journal article says that was run in 1970.
In 2019 a 70cm tall L&P bottle was sold on Trade Me for over $1,000." This sentence itself is very straightforward. I think the significance though is about how L&P is a part of New Zealand culture or something to that effect. As written, it comes at the end of a paragraph about Coca-Cola potentially changing the bottle color, which made it initially seem like this was somehow connected to that color change.
In October 2016 Lemon & Paeroa launched a limited edition" I don't see how this section is organized. The first two paragraphs start with a date but run out of chronological order. I see (a) a paragraph's worth of material about chocolate promoted with a fake car crash, (b) information about flavors spread across both paragraphs, and (c) a sentence about the L&P Cafe.
it became a traffic hazard." This was a really fascinating part of the article for me. I would consider expanding and clarifying the chain of events. I'm not from New Zealand, so it was unclear to me until I read the sources. Highway 2 runs through Paeroa, but I didn't know this. My incorrect interpretation of the wiki text was that the bottle had been set up in the town, then dismantled, then rebuilt on Highway 2, and then moved to another location that sounds rural and unrelated to Highway 2. I think that misreading is easy for someone unfamiliar with the area.
In 2020 it was listed for sale." Coming at the end of the paragraph, I thought this was the most recent information, that the place was currently up for sale. But reference 15 is a review of the place from 2 years later. Do we know who bought it? Is it up for sale but still running as usual?
In 2009 Tony Coombe tried to object Coca-Cola Amatil's attempt to trademark the phrase in 2004." Somehow the article should make the connection and conflict between Tony Coombe/L&P Cafe vs. Coca-Cola/L&P beverage clearer.
I'll stop there for the prose. I hope that doesn't come off as too harsh, and you are welcome to ask questions. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
2a: This looks good. Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Source review: [1]
in a cow paddock near the confluence of the Ohinemuri and Waihou Rivers, known as The Junction," to "
in a cow paddock near the junction between the Ohinemuri and Waihou Rivers, known as The Junction at the time."
By Graham Watton, Curator and Historian of the Paeroa and District Museum" is mostly a word-for-word reprint of the journal article but has slightly more specific information about ownership. It verifies the material.
The sources mostly look good, Panamitsu. Take a look at the comments for reference 2, 6, and 13. Rjjiii( talk) 10:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
there was a pipe that went from the factory to the Railway Reserve": https://www.ohinemuri.org.nz/journals/journal-14-october-1970/history-of-lemon-and-paeroa
This criteria is affected by issues with prose, the broadness, and a minor issue with a reference. The overall structure meets NPOV otherwise. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
The only potential stability issue is the merge discussion, but it appears to have reached a consensus not to merge the two articles. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
6a: All images have valid copyright information and licenses. Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
6b: Check your captions out. 2 of the 3 end with a period, but none are complete sentences. You could make them into sentences or (likely the better option) just remove the periods. Also "A bottle of L&P.
" is not a very helpful caption. What makes this photo helpful for a reader? Why is this slightly different design from the infobox photo included here? The caption should signal that.
Rjjiii(
talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Update: I checked out the images and the reference section. Let me know when you've addressed the existing cleanup tags and I'll move on to checking sources. Regards, Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Lemon & Paeroa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Lemon & Paeroa was nominated as a Agriculture, food and drink good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (September 30, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This article was nominated for merging in the past. The result of the discussion was not merged. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
L& P is not uncoloured!!!!!!. By my last check it was a browny yellow colour :-)
I'm not sure the statements about L&P's availability are entirely accurate. For some reason I managed to get one out of a Coffs Harbour Base hospital cold drinks machine in mid 2007. Perhaps it's becoming more widely available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.201.159 ( talk) 15:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
The statement The paradoxical advertising slogan " World famous in New Zealand" has become a popular New Zealand saying meaning very well known locally, but not receiving the recognition it deserves overseas is very dubious and, unless a reference can be provided, which i doubt it can, this statement has no founding and must be removed. Taifar ious1 06:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I find this is exactly what the phase is used for, often in response to a FOB Kiwi's surprise that their favourite brand is not available in the rest of the world. As in "I think you might find that Watties tomato sauce / Hokey Pokey icecream / K-bars are 'World famous in New Zealand' mate!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.215.11 ( talk) 10:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
L&P is actually available in quite a number of supermarkets, convenience stores, and petrol/service stations - not just in NZ speciality stores. Someone should amend this part of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.205.95 ( talk) 06:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the interpretation of the author re 'world famous in NZ'. Recommend that a marketing-related source of the phrase be found which clearly explains the meaning with respect to L&P. 195.75.244.91 ( talk) 12:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)Brian
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 23:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
L&P is definitely not just lemon and fizzy mineral water, it doesn't taste like lemonade. So there must be another ingredient, which I think Coca Cola claims is "secret". I don't know if anyone else has an idea, but my personal theory is that it's manuka extract (I have searched google and can't find any debate about it). If you've made fresh manuka tea (with sugar though), there's definitely something reminiscent about the taste. Re: the debate on "world famous in New Zealand", I agree with the article, that's my understanding of the phrase - I certainly can't see how it's "very dubious". I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on what else it might mean though. Miasmic ( talk) 23:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I propose merging World famous in New Zealand into Lemon & Paeroa. Article doesn't demonstrate that it has a widespread enough usage outside of L&P marketing to have its own article. This article also has a bit of a dubious claim, "'World famous in New Zealand' has become a popular New Zealand saying" (which is unsourced). I've lived in New Zealand my entire life and have never heard someone use this phrase. Panamitsu (talk) Please ping on reply
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Rjjiii ( talk · contribs) 09:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
In the next week or so, I will look over the article. Before I start, I notice there are 6 inline cleanup tags (2 when and 4 citation needed].
Rjjiii(
talk) 09:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
I find issues with the prose throughout the article. I'm going to note some examples below, but this isn't exhaustive. I'll put the article on hold if you want to try a copyedit. It may be a better idea to ask another editor for a copyedit of the article or to step away for a couple of weeks and come back with fresh eyes. Here are several examples:
No one had thought of commercialising it." This confuses me because I don't know what time frame it's talking about, why people thought (or did not think) that, and how it could be true when it's immediately followed by the history of commercialization. The sources mention (a) specifically when the water was sold as "table water", (b) that individuals were bottling it for themselves, and (c) that at least some people did not think there was a market for it at one point.
This factory sold water rather than Lemon & Paeroa, which was known as "Paeroa and Lemon" at the time—it is not clear when "Paeroa and Lemon" switched to "Lemon and Paeroa", it was marketed using both names in the late 1940s." I think the information presented here is straightforward, but this sentence structure is very complex, beyond the college graduate reading level. It was not clear to me that two products were being sold until I read the source. I also don't know if the P&L to L&P name change needs to be mentioned if we can't say anything about it.
It was 1934 when Lemon & Paeroa started being manufactured in Paeroa rather than Auckland." At this point in the article, it has been said that some type of water was shipped from Paeroa to Auckland. Since no mention was made of Lemon and Paeroa being made in Auckland, or the distinction between the mineral water and L&P, it was really unclear what this sentence meant.
At some point there was a pipe that went from the factory to the Railway Reserve which allowed the public to drink the water using a hand pump." After doing a quick search, a journal article says that was run in 1970.
In 2019 a 70cm tall L&P bottle was sold on Trade Me for over $1,000." This sentence itself is very straightforward. I think the significance though is about how L&P is a part of New Zealand culture or something to that effect. As written, it comes at the end of a paragraph about Coca-Cola potentially changing the bottle color, which made it initially seem like this was somehow connected to that color change.
In October 2016 Lemon & Paeroa launched a limited edition" I don't see how this section is organized. The first two paragraphs start with a date but run out of chronological order. I see (a) a paragraph's worth of material about chocolate promoted with a fake car crash, (b) information about flavors spread across both paragraphs, and (c) a sentence about the L&P Cafe.
it became a traffic hazard." This was a really fascinating part of the article for me. I would consider expanding and clarifying the chain of events. I'm not from New Zealand, so it was unclear to me until I read the sources. Highway 2 runs through Paeroa, but I didn't know this. My incorrect interpretation of the wiki text was that the bottle had been set up in the town, then dismantled, then rebuilt on Highway 2, and then moved to another location that sounds rural and unrelated to Highway 2. I think that misreading is easy for someone unfamiliar with the area.
In 2020 it was listed for sale." Coming at the end of the paragraph, I thought this was the most recent information, that the place was currently up for sale. But reference 15 is a review of the place from 2 years later. Do we know who bought it? Is it up for sale but still running as usual?
In 2009 Tony Coombe tried to object Coca-Cola Amatil's attempt to trademark the phrase in 2004." Somehow the article should make the connection and conflict between Tony Coombe/L&P Cafe vs. Coca-Cola/L&P beverage clearer.
I'll stop there for the prose. I hope that doesn't come off as too harsh, and you are welcome to ask questions. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
2a: This looks good. Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Source review: [1]
in a cow paddock near the confluence of the Ohinemuri and Waihou Rivers, known as The Junction," to "
in a cow paddock near the junction between the Ohinemuri and Waihou Rivers, known as The Junction at the time."
By Graham Watton, Curator and Historian of the Paeroa and District Museum" is mostly a word-for-word reprint of the journal article but has slightly more specific information about ownership. It verifies the material.
The sources mostly look good, Panamitsu. Take a look at the comments for reference 2, 6, and 13. Rjjiii( talk) 10:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
there was a pipe that went from the factory to the Railway Reserve": https://www.ohinemuri.org.nz/journals/journal-14-october-1970/history-of-lemon-and-paeroa
This criteria is affected by issues with prose, the broadness, and a minor issue with a reference. The overall structure meets NPOV otherwise. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
The only potential stability issue is the merge discussion, but it appears to have reached a consensus not to merge the two articles. Rjjiii( talk) 10:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
6a: All images have valid copyright information and licenses. Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
6b: Check your captions out. 2 of the 3 end with a period, but none are complete sentences. You could make them into sentences or (likely the better option) just remove the periods. Also "A bottle of L&P.
" is not a very helpful caption. What makes this photo helpful for a reader? Why is this slightly different design from the infobox photo included here? The caption should signal that.
Rjjiii(
talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Update: I checked out the images and the reference section. Let me know when you've addressed the existing cleanup tags and I'll move on to checking sources. Regards, Rjjiii( talk) 06:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)