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apologies if I made a wrong change out of ignorance, but the claim that Hare could ellect more seats than there are available made no sense, and is contradicted by: Droop quota - "This gives the Droop quota the special property that it is the smallest integral quota which guarantees that the number of candidates able to reach this quota cannot exceed the number of seats. " - by implication a larger quota would certanly guarantee this also, and seems only logical, since Hare wouldnt give a seat automatically unless it had at least the number of votes equal to the votes/seats, and sum(bottom((Vpn*S)/Vt))<=sum(Vpn)*(S/Vt)=S since sum(Vpn)=Vt by def (Vpn being votes of the candidate n, S - total seats, Vt - total). And it was claimed that Hagenbach-Bischoff quota would not suffer from this problem, which is explicitly denied by the article. Also I wonder what measure of proportionality considers Droop more proportional? Ive found quite a few articles stating contrary, none supporting this claim.-- Aryah 13:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Im also tempted to do something about this sentence: "The Sainte-Laguë method avoids these paradoxes but is less easy for the average voter to understand." . It is true, however it seems to have proven irrelevant; Sainte-Lague and the essentially identical and equally 'complex' d'Hondt algorithm are use in a huge number of countries, including most of europe. People seem to be not overly concearned by the fact that most dont know how their votes beget parliament seats. I come from such a country, and have known how the allocation works only after learning it in a small constitutional law class at the uni, by pure coincidence. When reading up on the issues around introducing STV, i was in sheer wonder what big a deal was made from the fact that most people would not know the algorithm of allocation, and Im guessing its from this cultural experience that this note is comming from. Again, it is a true fact, and it is possibly fair for it to be mentioned. But leaving it at that does not, imo, take into account that so much of the world is absolutely indifferent to this 'problem', and sees no problem with not knowing the algorithm (and certaly not finding it the least bit 'undemocratic' or untrustworthy because of it). In any case, even the U.S.A uses essentially a similar, and even more complex algorithm in determining the number of seats each state gets in their congress, so can be also added to the countries that use it and gives its complexity not a second thought, giving additional strenght to claiming this 'complexity' to be largly irrelevant. --
Aryah 12:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is another example, stolen from Droop_quota#Advantage_over_the_Hare_quota. Suppose there are five seats and 120 votes and the distribution is:
Then with Droop Blue will win three seats, while with Hare Blue will only win two seats, despite having more than half the total votes and more than three times as many votes as any other party. -- Henrygb 21:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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Some largest-remainder methods fail independence of irrelevant alternatives when looking at the seat shares of each party.
Under LR-Hagenbach-Bischoff, in a 2-winner election, if Party A gets 12 votes and B 6 votes, then the HB quota is 18/3=6 votes, so A gets 1 seat and then there's a tie for the second seat, meaning B has a 50/50 probability (under a random tiebreaker) to get 0 or 1 seats. But if Party C enters the race and 3 new voters pick them, then the quota is now 21/3=7 votes, so Party A will now have only 5 votes remaining after winning their first seat, so that B will win the second seat with 100% probability. (This all occurs despite C not winning any seats in either scenario.) GreekApple123 ( talk) 22:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
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apologies if I made a wrong change out of ignorance, but the claim that Hare could ellect more seats than there are available made no sense, and is contradicted by: Droop quota - "This gives the Droop quota the special property that it is the smallest integral quota which guarantees that the number of candidates able to reach this quota cannot exceed the number of seats. " - by implication a larger quota would certanly guarantee this also, and seems only logical, since Hare wouldnt give a seat automatically unless it had at least the number of votes equal to the votes/seats, and sum(bottom((Vpn*S)/Vt))<=sum(Vpn)*(S/Vt)=S since sum(Vpn)=Vt by def (Vpn being votes of the candidate n, S - total seats, Vt - total). And it was claimed that Hagenbach-Bischoff quota would not suffer from this problem, which is explicitly denied by the article. Also I wonder what measure of proportionality considers Droop more proportional? Ive found quite a few articles stating contrary, none supporting this claim.-- Aryah 13:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Im also tempted to do something about this sentence: "The Sainte-Laguë method avoids these paradoxes but is less easy for the average voter to understand." . It is true, however it seems to have proven irrelevant; Sainte-Lague and the essentially identical and equally 'complex' d'Hondt algorithm are use in a huge number of countries, including most of europe. People seem to be not overly concearned by the fact that most dont know how their votes beget parliament seats. I come from such a country, and have known how the allocation works only after learning it in a small constitutional law class at the uni, by pure coincidence. When reading up on the issues around introducing STV, i was in sheer wonder what big a deal was made from the fact that most people would not know the algorithm of allocation, and Im guessing its from this cultural experience that this note is comming from. Again, it is a true fact, and it is possibly fair for it to be mentioned. But leaving it at that does not, imo, take into account that so much of the world is absolutely indifferent to this 'problem', and sees no problem with not knowing the algorithm (and certaly not finding it the least bit 'undemocratic' or untrustworthy because of it). In any case, even the U.S.A uses essentially a similar, and even more complex algorithm in determining the number of seats each state gets in their congress, so can be also added to the countries that use it and gives its complexity not a second thought, giving additional strenght to claiming this 'complexity' to be largly irrelevant. --
Aryah 12:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is another example, stolen from Droop_quota#Advantage_over_the_Hare_quota. Suppose there are five seats and 120 votes and the distribution is:
Then with Droop Blue will win three seats, while with Hare Blue will only win two seats, despite having more than half the total votes and more than three times as many votes as any other party. -- Henrygb 21:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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Some largest-remainder methods fail independence of irrelevant alternatives when looking at the seat shares of each party.
Under LR-Hagenbach-Bischoff, in a 2-winner election, if Party A gets 12 votes and B 6 votes, then the HB quota is 18/3=6 votes, so A gets 1 seat and then there's a tie for the second seat, meaning B has a 50/50 probability (under a random tiebreaker) to get 0 or 1 seats. But if Party C enters the race and 3 new voters pick them, then the quota is now 21/3=7 votes, so Party A will now have only 5 votes remaining after winning their first seat, so that B will win the second seat with 100% probability. (This all occurs despite C not winning any seats in either scenario.) GreekApple123 ( talk) 22:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC)