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Article text said
This can't be completely correct: John of Gaunt was the son-in-law of Henry, 4th Earl of Lancaster. Also, Henry was the grandson of Edmund Crouchback, so it's likely he inherited Kenilworth directly. It's possible it reverted to the crown on Henry's death and then Edward II gave it to John of Gaunt, but I'm correcting the text on the assumption John inherited it (in right of his wife). Loren Rosen 18:47 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There's a collection of my pictures of the castle
here, on FotoPic; all of them are of course available as GFDL (actually, they're dual-licensed as PD/GFDL, if you want to use the for something else) - anyone think we can use more of them?
James F.
(talk) 21:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
1. The article says "The siege of Kenilworth Castle in 1266 is the longest in English history at almost a year."
However according to the distinguished historian Sir Maurice Powicke (Oxford History of England, The Thirteenth Century pages 208-213) the siege lasted just over 6 months. This statement is supported by Kenilworth History and Archaeology Society’s publication on the “Great Siege”.
Wikipedia’s entry on Donnington Castle contradicts the claim that the siege of Kenilworth Castle was the longest in English history. The following sentence is taken from the section on Donnington Castle in the Civil War "Finally, after an eighteen month siege, the garrison surrendered".
For claims of an even longer siege during the English civil wars of the 1640s see The History of the Siege of Basing House, Old Basing, Hampshire by David Nash Ford "BASING BESIEGED Civil War Stronghold holds out for Three Years" http://www.britannia.com/history/hants/siegebsg.html
2. Wikipedia article says “The siege was ended on easy terms for the defenders with the Dictum of Kenilworth” The Dictum of Kenilworth was proclaimed on 31st October 1266. The rebels at Kenilworth Castle were not satisfied and held out for another 40 days, hoping for help from Simon de Montfort the younger. When this help failed to arrive, they surrendered on 14th December 1266 and accepted the terms of the Dictum. See Powicke “The Thirteenth Century” page 213.
3. The article states "The castle returned to the Crown on Dudley's death." This is incorrect. Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, left Kenilworth Castle to his brother Ambrose Dudley, Earl of Warwick, for the latter's lifetime. On Ambrose's death in 1690 it passed to Sir Robert Dudley, the illegitimate son of Lord Leicester. In 1607 Sir Robert deserted his wife and fled to Italy with his cousin Elizabeth Southwell. When he disobeyed an order to return under the Statute of Fugitives, the Crown seized his estates, including Kenilworth Castle. In 1611 Sir Robert agreed to sell the Castle to Prince Henry, elder son of James I. Henry died in 1612 and the property passed to his younger brother, Charles. In 1626 King Charles I granted the Castle to his bride Henrietta Maria as part of her marriage settlement. From 1625 until 1649 the Carey family (Earls of Monmouth) were the stewards of Kenilworth Castle, i.e. leased it from the Crown. (See “A Kenilworth Chronology” by Harry Sunley)
4. With regard to the Restoration the article says “In 1660 Charles II gave the castle to Sir Edward Hyde, whom he created Baron Hyde of Hindon and Earl of Clarendon.”
The first part of this sentence is incorrect. In 1660 Charles II’s mother (Queen Henrietta Maria) successfully claimed back Kenilworth Castle and Lord Monmouth resumed his stewardship. When Lord Monmouth died in 1661 the lease passed to his daughters. In 1665 the Castle was granted to Lawrence Hyde (later made Earl of Rochester), the second son of Edward Hyde, Lord Clarendon. (See “A Kenilworth Chronology” by Harry Sunley). Lawrence’s son Henry inherited the Clarendon earldom in 1724 when the elder branch of the Hyde family died out. Jillingworth ( talk) 12:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The article seems to say that Humphrey of Gloucester was Henry V's brother and that John of Lancaster was his son. In fact the latter was also Henry's brother. Rogersansom ( talk) 15:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
I've uploaded this panorama taken from the East side of the castle to Wikimedia at "Kenilworth castle.jpeg". Would it make a good illustration for this article? It's had some retouching to remove tourists and add a bit of sky that was missed from the original component shots. PaulJohnson ( talk) 13:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I've gone through and expanded the article out a bit and scrubbed over the references. I've removed two small bits from the original article in the process. The first of these was the account of Shakespeare attending the 1575 festivities; I could only find references that noted "he might have been there", mainly on the basis of Victorian speculation. The second was the reference to Little Virginia and the potato, where again I couldn't find anything firmer than a statement that there was a local story to this effect. I've also added a few more pictures and the Hollar map. It will probably need a copy-editing of some sort. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Great to see this article in such excellent shape! Since Sir Robert Dudley undoubtedly inherited and owned the castle, I took the liberty to correct the episode about the aftermath of Leicester's death. Another point: I'd strongly think that 100,000 pounds cannot be true regarding the 1575 costs. Even the 1,000 pounds per day (just a fifth) are thought to be legendary. Leicester died with about 50,000 pounds in debt, practically bankrupt, after financing one of Elizabeth's wars. He would never have had the 100,000 to spend. Would it be o.k. to put in the story of 1,000 per day again, if I can find a suitable source? Or let's simply say that the costs for the festival were believed to have almost bankrupted the Earl? Buchraeumer ( talk) 15:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I've decided to go ahead with this. If he had spent such fantastic amounts there would be traces in his accounts, or debts. The Netherlands in the 1580s were Leicester's financial ruin, not this party. Buchraeumer ( talk) 23:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 18:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
On the issue of Henry, Earl of Lancaster, I thought this was addressed by the passage "His estates, including Kenilworth, were confiscated by the crown.[68] Edward and his wife, Isabella of France spent Christmas 1323 at Kenilworth, amidst major celebrations.[70] In 1326, however, Edward was deposed by an alliance of Isabella and her lover, Roger Mortimer. Edward was eventually captured by Isabella's forces and the custody of the king was assigned to Henry, Earl of Lancaster, who had backed Isabella's invasion.[71] Henry, regaining most of the Lancaster lands, was made constable of Kenilworth and Edward was transported there in late 1326". Taken in the context of the paragraph it's clear IMO that he regained possession as a result of royal favour. As the Crown owned his property, including Kenilworth, it could only have been the Crown that gave it back. Nev1 ( talk) 23:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Currently, the caption for the above images reads "Kenilworth Castle viewed from Gibbet Hill." I've had an email from Mike00046 ( talk · contribs) that Gibbet Hill is a few miles from where the photograph was taken. The link to Google maps isn't necessary in this edit. How about a compromise, changing the caption to "Kenilworth Castle viewed from the south west, where the great mere used to be." To most readers, Gibbet Hill won't mean much, and Kenilworth Castle Car Park Footpath even less, but I think the proposed wording would be more meaningful to someone who's read the article. Nev1 ( talk) 11:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
From Mike00046: I agree with the new wording to some degree, but would add at the point of where the photo was taken is a kissing gate and display notice board for http://www.kenilworthfootpaths.org.uk/ is located see http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KOwGxd9GFJ8492MyHZ6_TQ which does tell the reader that walks are available on public footpaths from the Kenilworth Castle main car park i.e. The Millenium Walks (This on is called The Brays) I have also emailed the owner of the photo as well - how did it get labelled incorrectly initially? -- 86.137.223.89 ( talk) 12:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
The geotagging (available on the original Flickr page where this photo is hosted) on that photo is pretty accurate (ie nowhere near Gibbet Hill). It's taken just South of the castle, from a footpath accessible from Castle Road. The new wording sounds pretty good. ChrisSinjo ( talk) 20:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
With regards to this revert. There is nothing wrong with the information added. Hchc2009, if you do not like the citation style then change it, but that is no excuse for reverting all of the edit. What exactly is your justification for reverting the additions to the article? -- PBS ( talk) 06:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
This was a destructive , it replaces an inter wiki link with an external link, it removes, location, publisher, volume, and page number information from the citation. This {{ cite DNB}} template is also potentially useful for furtherance of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography. -- PBS ( talk) 18:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
PBS, I don't want to raise tensions, but could we discuss the latest change? The other online sources used in the article keep to a consistent style; I believe you don't like this style, because I think it's come up before on other talk page discussions, and was part of the issues discussed above in January. If you want to alter the citation style, could you raise it as a change proposal here, and we can discuss as per WP:CITEVAR? Hchc2009 ( talk) 18:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Are you really saying that you support this [1] [2] although the only difference is that one includes a URL and the other not?
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)-- PBS ( talk) 19:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
If there is nothing further to say on the issue then I think that the ONDB long citation should be placed in the general references section where the rest of the long citations and leave a short inline citation as is the format for other sources in this article. -- PBS ( talk) 15:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
There is no established citation style here, there is a mishmash of short and long styles. There is no reason not to use the citation templates {{ ODNB}} and {{ DNB}} which include hidden categories to aid various Wikipedia projects. It is my intention to reinstate them unless someone can present a valid argument was to why short citations should not be used with them. -- PBS ( talk) 17:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Generically, I don't have a strong opinion in favour of, or against templates. I've used a wide range in the past when editing different articles. If an editor proposes adding them to an article that doesn't use them, however , it does require consensus, as per CITEVAR (mentioned last year). Having a single citation in as different format to all the rest, due to a particular template, doesn't make much sense to me though. If you're suggesting a change in style, please start a new action so that it's clear. If you're not proposing a change, then generic questions about the advantages of particular templates might live better elsewhere. Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
May be worth a mention in the Today section that the Leicester's Building has been reopened to the public after viewing platforms have been installed. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-29053731 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-21056150 Keith D ( talk) 12:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The image on the right shows the Mere partially flooded in 2012. I'm bringing it to people's attention in case it would be useful in the article. Nev1 ( talk) 15:04, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
One of the article's image captions uses "Pleasurance." Is this a typo, or a legitimate alternate spelling of "Pleasance"? 174.24.42.44 ( talk) 22:14, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kenilworth Castle article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Kenilworth Castle has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Article text said
This can't be completely correct: John of Gaunt was the son-in-law of Henry, 4th Earl of Lancaster. Also, Henry was the grandson of Edmund Crouchback, so it's likely he inherited Kenilworth directly. It's possible it reverted to the crown on Henry's death and then Edward II gave it to John of Gaunt, but I'm correcting the text on the assumption John inherited it (in right of his wife). Loren Rosen 18:47 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There's a collection of my pictures of the castle
here, on FotoPic; all of them are of course available as GFDL (actually, they're dual-licensed as PD/GFDL, if you want to use the for something else) - anyone think we can use more of them?
James F.
(talk) 21:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
1. The article says "The siege of Kenilworth Castle in 1266 is the longest in English history at almost a year."
However according to the distinguished historian Sir Maurice Powicke (Oxford History of England, The Thirteenth Century pages 208-213) the siege lasted just over 6 months. This statement is supported by Kenilworth History and Archaeology Society’s publication on the “Great Siege”.
Wikipedia’s entry on Donnington Castle contradicts the claim that the siege of Kenilworth Castle was the longest in English history. The following sentence is taken from the section on Donnington Castle in the Civil War "Finally, after an eighteen month siege, the garrison surrendered".
For claims of an even longer siege during the English civil wars of the 1640s see The History of the Siege of Basing House, Old Basing, Hampshire by David Nash Ford "BASING BESIEGED Civil War Stronghold holds out for Three Years" http://www.britannia.com/history/hants/siegebsg.html
2. Wikipedia article says “The siege was ended on easy terms for the defenders with the Dictum of Kenilworth” The Dictum of Kenilworth was proclaimed on 31st October 1266. The rebels at Kenilworth Castle were not satisfied and held out for another 40 days, hoping for help from Simon de Montfort the younger. When this help failed to arrive, they surrendered on 14th December 1266 and accepted the terms of the Dictum. See Powicke “The Thirteenth Century” page 213.
3. The article states "The castle returned to the Crown on Dudley's death." This is incorrect. Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, left Kenilworth Castle to his brother Ambrose Dudley, Earl of Warwick, for the latter's lifetime. On Ambrose's death in 1690 it passed to Sir Robert Dudley, the illegitimate son of Lord Leicester. In 1607 Sir Robert deserted his wife and fled to Italy with his cousin Elizabeth Southwell. When he disobeyed an order to return under the Statute of Fugitives, the Crown seized his estates, including Kenilworth Castle. In 1611 Sir Robert agreed to sell the Castle to Prince Henry, elder son of James I. Henry died in 1612 and the property passed to his younger brother, Charles. In 1626 King Charles I granted the Castle to his bride Henrietta Maria as part of her marriage settlement. From 1625 until 1649 the Carey family (Earls of Monmouth) were the stewards of Kenilworth Castle, i.e. leased it from the Crown. (See “A Kenilworth Chronology” by Harry Sunley)
4. With regard to the Restoration the article says “In 1660 Charles II gave the castle to Sir Edward Hyde, whom he created Baron Hyde of Hindon and Earl of Clarendon.”
The first part of this sentence is incorrect. In 1660 Charles II’s mother (Queen Henrietta Maria) successfully claimed back Kenilworth Castle and Lord Monmouth resumed his stewardship. When Lord Monmouth died in 1661 the lease passed to his daughters. In 1665 the Castle was granted to Lawrence Hyde (later made Earl of Rochester), the second son of Edward Hyde, Lord Clarendon. (See “A Kenilworth Chronology” by Harry Sunley). Lawrence’s son Henry inherited the Clarendon earldom in 1724 when the elder branch of the Hyde family died out. Jillingworth ( talk) 12:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The article seems to say that Humphrey of Gloucester was Henry V's brother and that John of Lancaster was his son. In fact the latter was also Henry's brother. Rogersansom ( talk) 15:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
I've uploaded this panorama taken from the East side of the castle to Wikimedia at "Kenilworth castle.jpeg". Would it make a good illustration for this article? It's had some retouching to remove tourists and add a bit of sky that was missed from the original component shots. PaulJohnson ( talk) 13:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I've gone through and expanded the article out a bit and scrubbed over the references. I've removed two small bits from the original article in the process. The first of these was the account of Shakespeare attending the 1575 festivities; I could only find references that noted "he might have been there", mainly on the basis of Victorian speculation. The second was the reference to Little Virginia and the potato, where again I couldn't find anything firmer than a statement that there was a local story to this effect. I've also added a few more pictures and the Hollar map. It will probably need a copy-editing of some sort. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Great to see this article in such excellent shape! Since Sir Robert Dudley undoubtedly inherited and owned the castle, I took the liberty to correct the episode about the aftermath of Leicester's death. Another point: I'd strongly think that 100,000 pounds cannot be true regarding the 1575 costs. Even the 1,000 pounds per day (just a fifth) are thought to be legendary. Leicester died with about 50,000 pounds in debt, practically bankrupt, after financing one of Elizabeth's wars. He would never have had the 100,000 to spend. Would it be o.k. to put in the story of 1,000 per day again, if I can find a suitable source? Or let's simply say that the costs for the festival were believed to have almost bankrupted the Earl? Buchraeumer ( talk) 15:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I've decided to go ahead with this. If he had spent such fantastic amounts there would be traces in his accounts, or debts. The Netherlands in the 1580s were Leicester's financial ruin, not this party. Buchraeumer ( talk) 23:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 18:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
On the issue of Henry, Earl of Lancaster, I thought this was addressed by the passage "His estates, including Kenilworth, were confiscated by the crown.[68] Edward and his wife, Isabella of France spent Christmas 1323 at Kenilworth, amidst major celebrations.[70] In 1326, however, Edward was deposed by an alliance of Isabella and her lover, Roger Mortimer. Edward was eventually captured by Isabella's forces and the custody of the king was assigned to Henry, Earl of Lancaster, who had backed Isabella's invasion.[71] Henry, regaining most of the Lancaster lands, was made constable of Kenilworth and Edward was transported there in late 1326". Taken in the context of the paragraph it's clear IMO that he regained possession as a result of royal favour. As the Crown owned his property, including Kenilworth, it could only have been the Crown that gave it back. Nev1 ( talk) 23:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Currently, the caption for the above images reads "Kenilworth Castle viewed from Gibbet Hill." I've had an email from Mike00046 ( talk · contribs) that Gibbet Hill is a few miles from where the photograph was taken. The link to Google maps isn't necessary in this edit. How about a compromise, changing the caption to "Kenilworth Castle viewed from the south west, where the great mere used to be." To most readers, Gibbet Hill won't mean much, and Kenilworth Castle Car Park Footpath even less, but I think the proposed wording would be more meaningful to someone who's read the article. Nev1 ( talk) 11:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
From Mike00046: I agree with the new wording to some degree, but would add at the point of where the photo was taken is a kissing gate and display notice board for http://www.kenilworthfootpaths.org.uk/ is located see http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KOwGxd9GFJ8492MyHZ6_TQ which does tell the reader that walks are available on public footpaths from the Kenilworth Castle main car park i.e. The Millenium Walks (This on is called The Brays) I have also emailed the owner of the photo as well - how did it get labelled incorrectly initially? -- 86.137.223.89 ( talk) 12:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
The geotagging (available on the original Flickr page where this photo is hosted) on that photo is pretty accurate (ie nowhere near Gibbet Hill). It's taken just South of the castle, from a footpath accessible from Castle Road. The new wording sounds pretty good. ChrisSinjo ( talk) 20:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
With regards to this revert. There is nothing wrong with the information added. Hchc2009, if you do not like the citation style then change it, but that is no excuse for reverting all of the edit. What exactly is your justification for reverting the additions to the article? -- PBS ( talk) 06:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
This was a destructive , it replaces an inter wiki link with an external link, it removes, location, publisher, volume, and page number information from the citation. This {{ cite DNB}} template is also potentially useful for furtherance of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography. -- PBS ( talk) 18:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
PBS, I don't want to raise tensions, but could we discuss the latest change? The other online sources used in the article keep to a consistent style; I believe you don't like this style, because I think it's come up before on other talk page discussions, and was part of the issues discussed above in January. If you want to alter the citation style, could you raise it as a change proposal here, and we can discuss as per WP:CITEVAR? Hchc2009 ( talk) 18:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Are you really saying that you support this [1] [2] although the only difference is that one includes a URL and the other not?
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)-- PBS ( talk) 19:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
If there is nothing further to say on the issue then I think that the ONDB long citation should be placed in the general references section where the rest of the long citations and leave a short inline citation as is the format for other sources in this article. -- PBS ( talk) 15:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
There is no established citation style here, there is a mishmash of short and long styles. There is no reason not to use the citation templates {{ ODNB}} and {{ DNB}} which include hidden categories to aid various Wikipedia projects. It is my intention to reinstate them unless someone can present a valid argument was to why short citations should not be used with them. -- PBS ( talk) 17:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Generically, I don't have a strong opinion in favour of, or against templates. I've used a wide range in the past when editing different articles. If an editor proposes adding them to an article that doesn't use them, however , it does require consensus, as per CITEVAR (mentioned last year). Having a single citation in as different format to all the rest, due to a particular template, doesn't make much sense to me though. If you're suggesting a change in style, please start a new action so that it's clear. If you're not proposing a change, then generic questions about the advantages of particular templates might live better elsewhere. Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
May be worth a mention in the Today section that the Leicester's Building has been reopened to the public after viewing platforms have been installed. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-29053731 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-21056150 Keith D ( talk) 12:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The image on the right shows the Mere partially flooded in 2012. I'm bringing it to people's attention in case it would be useful in the article. Nev1 ( talk) 15:04, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
One of the article's image captions uses "Pleasurance." Is this a typo, or a legitimate alternate spelling of "Pleasance"? 174.24.42.44 ( talk) 22:14, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
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