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If Kansas City is indeed (as stated on this page) just one city divided over two states, then why not make this page the page about Kansas City, and have the other two pages redirect to it? Or am I wrong? jheijmans
While the city in general is divided between states (ie., separate) .... it does have interrelated facets [an example is the NA football team, located in Mo, but claimed by Kansans as much as those from Mo]. Being a bi-state area, there are several things that KC'ian share between the 2. The pioneers settled, IIRC, on the missouri side 1st [being the 1st stop on the movement west] ... but they also settled in around KCKS during the same time. It was basically concurrent. I'll in the future edit the page to do a bi-state phenonomena [and dab the other meanings in that article]. JDR 18:37, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's also politically impossible in the US for one city to be incorporated by two states. -- R'son-W (speak to me/ breathe) 21:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There sure are a lot of links to this page. How about moving this page to Kansas City (disambiguation) and making Kansas City a real article? Or redirecting Kansas City to one of the other "Kansas City" articles? What do you think? Ewlyahoocom 03:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Kansas City should be a redirect to Kansas City, Missouri, which is the larger and more prominent of the two. Most links have the MO city in mind. --- D ralwi k| Have a Chat My Great Project 21:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Ehh....this page is kinda messed up, it either needs to be a redirect to KCMO the metropolitan area or a disambig page. Grey Wanderer | Talk 00:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Sometime soon I will either redirect this page to Kansas City, Missouri and create a disambig page or create the disambig page and redirect to it. Any thoughts? Grey Wanderer | Talk 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If it has to redirect anywhere, I think Kansas City Metropolitan Area would be a much better choice than the KCMO article. Plus this article already has some useful summary content written that could easily be merged with the metro article. Erp Erpington ( talk) 20:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, we have a consensus. KCMA Presumptive ( talk) 04:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. What is the primary usage of "Kansas City"? Is there one use of the phrase "Kansas City" that overwhelms all others in usage, google counts, and page hits? If there isn't, this needs to be disambiguated. It's that simple.-- Loodog ( talk) 23:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Articles on this page have consistently provided disambiguation coupled with replication of information on more specific pages. There has clearly been no consensus on a specific page being the proper redirect target. Given these things, it seems that leaving this page as a redirect to the disambiguation page and focusing work on improving pages specific to locals is the the best way to produce the most complete, coherent, and encyclopedic set of entries while providing the most relevance to all individuals looking for information on the subject. Darker Dreams ( talk) 05:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Just to sum up what the above conversation threads concluded. Honestly just about nothing. I see three editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City, Missouri. I see four editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, and one or two editors for a dab page located here. I would agree with Darker Dreams that nobody really expressed support for what is currently displayed in the mainspace. It is probably best it stays there until there for the duration of this discussion though, as to not favor any of the alternatives under consideration. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 21:28, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
LtPowers, It does stand to reason that something more than just a simple disambiguation page could be useful in such an unusual situation. Apologies if I didn't include you, I was just trying to summarize the old discussion, and demonstrate that we were far from coming to any sort of consensus. Loodog, For the record I think primary usage is quite clear in this case, this is based simply on my own musing on the actual usage of "Kansas City." The question seems to me is there enough of a gap between common usage Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas to justify directly to KCMO. The issue of primary usage should be considered separately from the issue of what we presume people may or may not know about "Kansas City." Just some thoughts. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 02:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
To future clarify, twinning implies a similarity in status. St. Paul and Minnapolis both grew in population separately then merged. However, they have an equilibrium in economic, and cultural importance. KCK experienced it's population growth similarly to Independence, Missouri: As a result of Kansas City, Missouri's suburban expansion. In addition Kansas City, Missouri is the clear central city (vernacular:down town) and cultural center of the entire metro area. What confuses people is the similarity of the names does not indicate a single unit anymore than Kansas City, Kansas and Overland Park are a single unit, or twins for that matter. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 20:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Darker, discussion seems vigorous right now, but if it putters out again after a week or so and you make the change I won't revert it. There is a quick tell on usage. Use the "what links here" tool and view how the term is used on Wikipedia. I think both that tool and a google search of "Kansas City" easily establishes primary usage in favor of Kansas City, Missouri. It is convention, unless there is a good reason not to that the generic name of the city without the state redirects to the municipality not the metro area (St. Louis is a good example), generally this is what people most often looking for. I would suggest scrapping this page as redundant and redirect to Kansas City, Missouri then providing a prominent disambig blurb at the top of the page. I understand suggesting the redirect go to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, but I feel that solution ignores primary usage in favor of catering to a minority who (because of the same axiom of primary usage) are overwhelmingly likely looking for the Kansas City, Missouri page anyways. It would be immediately clear with a disambig header to those who ended up in the wrong place. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 20:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
It has been a week since this discussion started, two since my initial post, and the discussion seems to have tapered off over the last couple days. Even with the new voice supporting the current quasi-disambig status there is clearly a consensus against that, so I'm returning this to a redirect. There is an open question regarding where it should be redirected to; KCMA, KCMO, or KC(disambig). As a note; linking it to KCMO seems like a good way to bring a whole lot of hate to this page. I'm linking it to the disambiguation page as the most socially neutral and informative option. This may be wrong per general usage, but with the prominance of all primary usages on that page it seems reasonable. Darker Dreams ( talk) 08:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. There is solid consensus that this proposal is a fair solution to a rather unique problem. There is consensus on all the major points: that something involving "Greater Kansas City" is the obvious primary topic for the term "Kansas City"; that, accepting this fact, readers are better served being sent to a WP:DABCONCEPT article on "Kansas City" rather than just a standard disambiguation page; and that Kansas City metropolitan area is the article that best fits the DABCONCEPT description for this primary topic. In the future it may be worth discussing moving the metro area article to "Kansas City", but this solution should suffice for now. Cúchullain t/ c 15:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Kansas City →
Kansas City (disambiguation) – Please see
football. That's a word that lots of people use different ways, depending on context, but the meanings are (almost) all related, with one common link. Therefore, instead of a useless disambiguation page, we use a
conceptual disambiguation page. Kansas City is a "word" that in different contexts could mean different things (see
Kansas City metropolitan area,
Kansas City, Missouri and
Kansas City, Kansas) but for which all the major meanings are related, with one common link. I propose for the base title
Kansas City to redirect to
Kansas City metropolitan area (if people want to, later they could move that article to
Kansas City--that is not my proposal, however). Is that clear?
Summary:
Thanks for your consideration. Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Given the discussion above this seems like a good time to make the case for Kansas City, Missouri as the primary topic for the term Kansas City. This issue is complicated given the uniqueness of the situation and can be emotionally charged due to a long-standing rivalry between Missouri and Kansas. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC gives two considerations:
Kansas City, Missouri fulfills both of these requirements as the central city of the Kansas City metropolitan area. The towns of North Kansas City and Kansas City, Kansas both founded as pre-WWII inner-ring "streetcar" suburbs and both took their names after the central municipality. These towns were never able to compete with Kansas City, Missouri for economic, cultural, and governmental institutions. Check out a google search for "Kansas City historic maps also check out the historical census population trends, KCK is comparable to Kansas City, Missouri's western suburb of Independence, Missouri in population and always a fraction of Kansas City, Missouri. In the aspect of "Long-term significance" Kansas City, Missouri is clearly the primary topic.
In regards to "Usage" the case is a bit more ambiguous. Kansas City, Missouri is twice as likely to be linked by "What links here" and a google search revels twice as many hits as "Kansas City, Kansas". It is also more likely to be searched for than all other topic combined according to Wikipedia page hits. Wikipedia has a good chance here to help clarify this murky issue. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 08:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Despite one support, the majority speaks against it. ( non-admin closure) George Ho ( talk) 17:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – "Kansas City" now redirects to Kansas City metropolitan area per RM three years ago. While the metro area might fit the criteria of a broad-concept article, being a "broad concept" may not be a fitting description of the primary topic, which is decided by us consensus, not the tools or any other, though the tools influence us to decide which is the primary topic. Also, the metro area fails the criteria to be the "Kansas City" that readers are looking for, which I explain in the Discussion section. Statistics prove that the metro area has less hits than the one in Kansas and in Missouri, the most popular of all. Those typing just "Kansas City" are not easy to examine or analyze as the statistics reveal that they may not be looking for the metro area at all. George Ho ( talk) 08:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Most readers read the lead section (and the infobox), and many just stop after the lead and then move to another article or somewhere, while others might read further. Numbers don't tell us whether the readers read the whole articles, however.
Anyhow, let's review the criteria for "Kansas City":
I can't treat the above as "rules", so if the criteria are not enough, read what the section says: "Redirects should be created to articles that may reasonably be searched for or linked to under two or more names (such as different spellings or former names). Conversely, a name that could refer to several different articles may require disambiguation.
" Unless the metro area is what the readers typing just "Kansas City" are actually searching for, the consensus of previous RM may have mistaken "Kansas City" as the metro area due to the "broad-concept" definition. --
George Ho (
talk) 09:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Moving last year's stats from rationale post; the same as this year's. -- George Ho ( talk) 10:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
More stats of other contenders, though nothing compared to the metro, Missouri, and Kansas. -- George Ho ( talk) 18:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 04:05, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – The search term “Kansas City” is being redirected to a page that’s not even the primary topic for that search term, the Kansas City metropolitan area. Kansas City, Missouri receives far more page views than Kansas City metropolitan area. There’s no reason why a search for “Kansas City” shouldn’t land at a disambiguation page Mrbeastmodeallday ( talk) 00:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
If Kansas City is indeed (as stated on this page) just one city divided over two states, then why not make this page the page about Kansas City, and have the other two pages redirect to it? Or am I wrong? jheijmans
While the city in general is divided between states (ie., separate) .... it does have interrelated facets [an example is the NA football team, located in Mo, but claimed by Kansans as much as those from Mo]. Being a bi-state area, there are several things that KC'ian share between the 2. The pioneers settled, IIRC, on the missouri side 1st [being the 1st stop on the movement west] ... but they also settled in around KCKS during the same time. It was basically concurrent. I'll in the future edit the page to do a bi-state phenonomena [and dab the other meanings in that article]. JDR 18:37, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's also politically impossible in the US for one city to be incorporated by two states. -- R'son-W (speak to me/ breathe) 21:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There sure are a lot of links to this page. How about moving this page to Kansas City (disambiguation) and making Kansas City a real article? Or redirecting Kansas City to one of the other "Kansas City" articles? What do you think? Ewlyahoocom 03:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Kansas City should be a redirect to Kansas City, Missouri, which is the larger and more prominent of the two. Most links have the MO city in mind. --- D ralwi k| Have a Chat My Great Project 21:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Ehh....this page is kinda messed up, it either needs to be a redirect to KCMO the metropolitan area or a disambig page. Grey Wanderer | Talk 00:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Sometime soon I will either redirect this page to Kansas City, Missouri and create a disambig page or create the disambig page and redirect to it. Any thoughts? Grey Wanderer | Talk 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If it has to redirect anywhere, I think Kansas City Metropolitan Area would be a much better choice than the KCMO article. Plus this article already has some useful summary content written that could easily be merged with the metro article. Erp Erpington ( talk) 20:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, we have a consensus. KCMA Presumptive ( talk) 04:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. What is the primary usage of "Kansas City"? Is there one use of the phrase "Kansas City" that overwhelms all others in usage, google counts, and page hits? If there isn't, this needs to be disambiguated. It's that simple.-- Loodog ( talk) 23:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Articles on this page have consistently provided disambiguation coupled with replication of information on more specific pages. There has clearly been no consensus on a specific page being the proper redirect target. Given these things, it seems that leaving this page as a redirect to the disambiguation page and focusing work on improving pages specific to locals is the the best way to produce the most complete, coherent, and encyclopedic set of entries while providing the most relevance to all individuals looking for information on the subject. Darker Dreams ( talk) 05:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Just to sum up what the above conversation threads concluded. Honestly just about nothing. I see three editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City, Missouri. I see four editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, and one or two editors for a dab page located here. I would agree with Darker Dreams that nobody really expressed support for what is currently displayed in the mainspace. It is probably best it stays there until there for the duration of this discussion though, as to not favor any of the alternatives under consideration. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 21:28, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
LtPowers, It does stand to reason that something more than just a simple disambiguation page could be useful in such an unusual situation. Apologies if I didn't include you, I was just trying to summarize the old discussion, and demonstrate that we were far from coming to any sort of consensus. Loodog, For the record I think primary usage is quite clear in this case, this is based simply on my own musing on the actual usage of "Kansas City." The question seems to me is there enough of a gap between common usage Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas to justify directly to KCMO. The issue of primary usage should be considered separately from the issue of what we presume people may or may not know about "Kansas City." Just some thoughts. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 02:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
To future clarify, twinning implies a similarity in status. St. Paul and Minnapolis both grew in population separately then merged. However, they have an equilibrium in economic, and cultural importance. KCK experienced it's population growth similarly to Independence, Missouri: As a result of Kansas City, Missouri's suburban expansion. In addition Kansas City, Missouri is the clear central city (vernacular:down town) and cultural center of the entire metro area. What confuses people is the similarity of the names does not indicate a single unit anymore than Kansas City, Kansas and Overland Park are a single unit, or twins for that matter. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 20:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Darker, discussion seems vigorous right now, but if it putters out again after a week or so and you make the change I won't revert it. There is a quick tell on usage. Use the "what links here" tool and view how the term is used on Wikipedia. I think both that tool and a google search of "Kansas City" easily establishes primary usage in favor of Kansas City, Missouri. It is convention, unless there is a good reason not to that the generic name of the city without the state redirects to the municipality not the metro area (St. Louis is a good example), generally this is what people most often looking for. I would suggest scrapping this page as redundant and redirect to Kansas City, Missouri then providing a prominent disambig blurb at the top of the page. I understand suggesting the redirect go to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, but I feel that solution ignores primary usage in favor of catering to a minority who (because of the same axiom of primary usage) are overwhelmingly likely looking for the Kansas City, Missouri page anyways. It would be immediately clear with a disambig header to those who ended up in the wrong place. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 20:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
It has been a week since this discussion started, two since my initial post, and the discussion seems to have tapered off over the last couple days. Even with the new voice supporting the current quasi-disambig status there is clearly a consensus against that, so I'm returning this to a redirect. There is an open question regarding where it should be redirected to; KCMA, KCMO, or KC(disambig). As a note; linking it to KCMO seems like a good way to bring a whole lot of hate to this page. I'm linking it to the disambiguation page as the most socially neutral and informative option. This may be wrong per general usage, but with the prominance of all primary usages on that page it seems reasonable. Darker Dreams ( talk) 08:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. There is solid consensus that this proposal is a fair solution to a rather unique problem. There is consensus on all the major points: that something involving "Greater Kansas City" is the obvious primary topic for the term "Kansas City"; that, accepting this fact, readers are better served being sent to a WP:DABCONCEPT article on "Kansas City" rather than just a standard disambiguation page; and that Kansas City metropolitan area is the article that best fits the DABCONCEPT description for this primary topic. In the future it may be worth discussing moving the metro area article to "Kansas City", but this solution should suffice for now. Cúchullain t/ c 15:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Kansas City →
Kansas City (disambiguation) – Please see
football. That's a word that lots of people use different ways, depending on context, but the meanings are (almost) all related, with one common link. Therefore, instead of a useless disambiguation page, we use a
conceptual disambiguation page. Kansas City is a "word" that in different contexts could mean different things (see
Kansas City metropolitan area,
Kansas City, Missouri and
Kansas City, Kansas) but for which all the major meanings are related, with one common link. I propose for the base title
Kansas City to redirect to
Kansas City metropolitan area (if people want to, later they could move that article to
Kansas City--that is not my proposal, however). Is that clear?
Summary:
Thanks for your consideration. Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Given the discussion above this seems like a good time to make the case for Kansas City, Missouri as the primary topic for the term Kansas City. This issue is complicated given the uniqueness of the situation and can be emotionally charged due to a long-standing rivalry between Missouri and Kansas. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC gives two considerations:
Kansas City, Missouri fulfills both of these requirements as the central city of the Kansas City metropolitan area. The towns of North Kansas City and Kansas City, Kansas both founded as pre-WWII inner-ring "streetcar" suburbs and both took their names after the central municipality. These towns were never able to compete with Kansas City, Missouri for economic, cultural, and governmental institutions. Check out a google search for "Kansas City historic maps also check out the historical census population trends, KCK is comparable to Kansas City, Missouri's western suburb of Independence, Missouri in population and always a fraction of Kansas City, Missouri. In the aspect of "Long-term significance" Kansas City, Missouri is clearly the primary topic.
In regards to "Usage" the case is a bit more ambiguous. Kansas City, Missouri is twice as likely to be linked by "What links here" and a google search revels twice as many hits as "Kansas City, Kansas". It is also more likely to be searched for than all other topic combined according to Wikipedia page hits. Wikipedia has a good chance here to help clarify this murky issue. Grey Wanderer ( talk) 08:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Despite one support, the majority speaks against it. ( non-admin closure) George Ho ( talk) 17:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – "Kansas City" now redirects to Kansas City metropolitan area per RM three years ago. While the metro area might fit the criteria of a broad-concept article, being a "broad concept" may not be a fitting description of the primary topic, which is decided by us consensus, not the tools or any other, though the tools influence us to decide which is the primary topic. Also, the metro area fails the criteria to be the "Kansas City" that readers are looking for, which I explain in the Discussion section. Statistics prove that the metro area has less hits than the one in Kansas and in Missouri, the most popular of all. Those typing just "Kansas City" are not easy to examine or analyze as the statistics reveal that they may not be looking for the metro area at all. George Ho ( talk) 08:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Most readers read the lead section (and the infobox), and many just stop after the lead and then move to another article or somewhere, while others might read further. Numbers don't tell us whether the readers read the whole articles, however.
Anyhow, let's review the criteria for "Kansas City":
I can't treat the above as "rules", so if the criteria are not enough, read what the section says: "Redirects should be created to articles that may reasonably be searched for or linked to under two or more names (such as different spellings or former names). Conversely, a name that could refer to several different articles may require disambiguation.
" Unless the metro area is what the readers typing just "Kansas City" are actually searching for, the consensus of previous RM may have mistaken "Kansas City" as the metro area due to the "broad-concept" definition. --
George Ho (
talk) 09:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Moving last year's stats from rationale post; the same as this year's. -- George Ho ( talk) 10:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
More stats of other contenders, though nothing compared to the metro, Missouri, and Kansas. -- George Ho ( talk) 18:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 04:05, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – The search term “Kansas City” is being redirected to a page that’s not even the primary topic for that search term, the Kansas City metropolitan area. Kansas City, Missouri receives far more page views than Kansas City metropolitan area. There’s no reason why a search for “Kansas City” shouldn’t land at a disambiguation page Mrbeastmodeallday ( talk) 00:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)