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??? *a bit beffudlled* - why is there " kafir" and " kaphir" when there should be only one, they mean the same thing --don't they? Dwarf Kirlston 01:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) note: also kaffir - they all seem to be pronounced the same way... do they mean the same thing??? Dwarf Kirlston
The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:
From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage)
P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I have split the old "Kafir"/"Kaffir" pages into
kafir (Islam) for the religious meaning,
kaffir (ethnic slur) for the insult as used in South Africa and Jamaica,
South Africa Kaffir people for its neutral (sort of) use in historical contexts, e.g. the "Kaffir Wars". See
kaffir (disambiguation). The old discussion is mostly in
Talk:Kafir (Islam), except for some sections on general senses, that were kept here.
Jorge Stolfi 22:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Anybody know more about where the ethnic slur Kaffir comes from? I saw this term in a fiction book and didn't really find a lot of info on it. Jscook55 ( talk) 04:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The sense "blanket term for southern African natives" had been indented under the "ethnic slur" sense. I moved it up one level. The reason is that it is not clear that the "blanket" sense qualifies as an "ethnic slur".
The "blanket" sense apparently dates from the beginning of slave trade in the 16th century, and is therefore older than than the colonization of South Africa. Sure, the prejudice (and worse) existed at that time, but that doesn't seem to be enough to turn an ethnic name into an ethnic slur. (For instance, the English despised and hated the Germans during WWII, yet that did not make "German" an ethnic slur. Ditto for the English settlers in Australia and the word "Aborigine". Also, "negro" was probably synonymous with "black man" at some point, but somehow one became an ethnic slur, while the other didn't.)
Methinks that a a word qualifies as a slur only if it has other negative associations besides just the name of a discriminated group, so that using it to name those peoples implicitly conveys the speaker's contempt for them; or if the speaker knows that the group dislikes that name, so that its use becomes an intentional insult. Both are certainly true of "kaffir" today, but I can't see how that could be the case in the early 19th century, say.
Also, according to this source the term had a more restricted sense in at a certain place and time (Eastern Cape frontier, the 19th century), which argues against it being just an ethnic slur at that time.
Indeed, if we should go by etymology, methinks that the slur should be subordinate to the blanket sense, rather than the other way around. But can we leave the two at the same level, as a compromise?
(Phew! Sorry to waste so many bytes on a miserly "*"...) All the best, Jorge Stolfi 23:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone deleted the second half of this page, with entries like "Kaffir lime" etc, allegedly to follow WP guidelines for disamb pages. I have reverted the change because:
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 21:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully disagree. Disambig pages are not search engine in wikipedia. They have strictly defined function, namely, to navigate between articles with the same title. Looking into history, I see it is you hobby and I understand you will be painfully reluctant to abandon. But what you pursue is not encouraged at other diambig pages. I am afraid I have to escalate this dispute to wider participation. Mukadderat 09:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
None of these terms can be used in a modern sense without being insulting to black South Africans, and none are in common usage today (apart from as intensional racial slurs). Also, none of these links have articles as yet. If someone wants to put them back, maybe they can track down and find historical references, and mention that the use is depracated. - Kieran 13:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is Kaffiristan under the subheading Middle East when Afghanistan is in the South Asian continent? - Klep 20:31, 16 Mar 2008 (UTC)
This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
??? *a bit beffudlled* - why is there " kafir" and " kaphir" when there should be only one, they mean the same thing --don't they? Dwarf Kirlston 01:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) note: also kaffir - they all seem to be pronounced the same way... do they mean the same thing??? Dwarf Kirlston
The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:
From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage)
P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I have split the old "Kafir"/"Kaffir" pages into
kafir (Islam) for the religious meaning,
kaffir (ethnic slur) for the insult as used in South Africa and Jamaica,
South Africa Kaffir people for its neutral (sort of) use in historical contexts, e.g. the "Kaffir Wars". See
kaffir (disambiguation). The old discussion is mostly in
Talk:Kafir (Islam), except for some sections on general senses, that were kept here.
Jorge Stolfi 22:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Anybody know more about where the ethnic slur Kaffir comes from? I saw this term in a fiction book and didn't really find a lot of info on it. Jscook55 ( talk) 04:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The sense "blanket term for southern African natives" had been indented under the "ethnic slur" sense. I moved it up one level. The reason is that it is not clear that the "blanket" sense qualifies as an "ethnic slur".
The "blanket" sense apparently dates from the beginning of slave trade in the 16th century, and is therefore older than than the colonization of South Africa. Sure, the prejudice (and worse) existed at that time, but that doesn't seem to be enough to turn an ethnic name into an ethnic slur. (For instance, the English despised and hated the Germans during WWII, yet that did not make "German" an ethnic slur. Ditto for the English settlers in Australia and the word "Aborigine". Also, "negro" was probably synonymous with "black man" at some point, but somehow one became an ethnic slur, while the other didn't.)
Methinks that a a word qualifies as a slur only if it has other negative associations besides just the name of a discriminated group, so that using it to name those peoples implicitly conveys the speaker's contempt for them; or if the speaker knows that the group dislikes that name, so that its use becomes an intentional insult. Both are certainly true of "kaffir" today, but I can't see how that could be the case in the early 19th century, say.
Also, according to this source the term had a more restricted sense in at a certain place and time (Eastern Cape frontier, the 19th century), which argues against it being just an ethnic slur at that time.
Indeed, if we should go by etymology, methinks that the slur should be subordinate to the blanket sense, rather than the other way around. But can we leave the two at the same level, as a compromise?
(Phew! Sorry to waste so many bytes on a miserly "*"...) All the best, Jorge Stolfi 23:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone deleted the second half of this page, with entries like "Kaffir lime" etc, allegedly to follow WP guidelines for disamb pages. I have reverted the change because:
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 21:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Respectfully disagree. Disambig pages are not search engine in wikipedia. They have strictly defined function, namely, to navigate between articles with the same title. Looking into history, I see it is you hobby and I understand you will be painfully reluctant to abandon. But what you pursue is not encouraged at other diambig pages. I am afraid I have to escalate this dispute to wider participation. Mukadderat 09:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
None of these terms can be used in a modern sense without being insulting to black South Africans, and none are in common usage today (apart from as intensional racial slurs). Also, none of these links have articles as yet. If someone wants to put them back, maybe they can track down and find historical references, and mention that the use is depracated. - Kieran 13:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is Kaffiristan under the subheading Middle East when Afghanistan is in the South Asian continent? - Klep 20:31, 16 Mar 2008 (UTC)