Jews in the civil rights movement is currently a World history
good article nominee. Nominated by
Homerethegreat (
talk) at 21:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Anyone who has not contributed significantly to (or nominated) this article may review it according to the
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Short description: Jewish organizations and individuals in the American Civil Rights Movement
A fact from Jews in the civil rights movement appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 December 2023 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
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the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
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Civil Rights Movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Civil Rights MovementWikipedia:WikiProject Civil Rights MovementTemplate:WikiProject Civil Rights MovementCivil Rights Movement articles
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by
Lightbursttalk 01:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Recent creation. Article is well-cited. I'm a personal fan of the ALT1 hook but we will need to settle on either "50%" or "50 percent" (not both) before it its promoted. The original hook is fine as well but is a bit too vague for my liking, although I know some people prefer those because they guide readers to actually click on the articles.
Krisgabwoosh (
talk) 22:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Question re page creation
Hello, I am confused why this page was created a month ago, when the page
African American–Jewish relations has been on wikipedia since 2010? Like, why is this a separate new page, when in the lede of African American-Jewish relations the civil rights movement is mentioned.
Soyembika (
talk) 04:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because there is need for a specific entry. This is a focus article on the issue which is not widely enough covered.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 09:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
the article
African American–Jewish relations is far wider in its scope. This article is specific in its scope, referring specifically to Jews and the Civil Rights movement which is notable enough a topic to warrant its own article.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 09:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is 40,000 bytes+. Of course further information can be added. And from what I saw from both articles this article covers more than each one individually. Either how, there is no question of notability. On the contrary, I invite you to add further information and make this article more informative. You're most welcome to do so. Please feel free to ask any other questions.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 17:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because there is a large amount of american Jews telling black people "you owe us one" re. the Israel situation. This page creation is just as cynical as a right-winger compiling a screed on "Judeo-Bolshevism."
Sheila1988 (
talk) 09:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Although I do not fully understand your comment, it does seem inappropriate and disconnected. Please raise actual problems regarding the topic of the article.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 13:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Concerns about synthesis and lack of scholarly sources
Hi @
Homerethegreat, following up on
our discussion at ERRORS. As I said there, I have a significant concern about this article's reliance on newsmedia sources for very impactful claims, especially given the healthy academic discourse that exists about this topic. When editors are built out of
less-reliable sources like newspapers and magazines, it's easy to fall into
WP:SYNTH and
WP:DUE traps, even if one is proceeding with the best of intentions. That's what's happened with the use of "pivotal role" here, which is, at best, an over-simplification of the academic view on the topic, and at worst risks presenting a false narrative.
I am lucky enough to count as a relative one of the preeminent scholars of Black–Jewish relations, Cheryl Greenberg. (To avoid any accusation that that assessment is biased by kinship: Her Troubling the Waters: Black–Jewish Relations in the American Century is
very widely-cited in academia [moreso than almost any other text in the field], and she is also cited quite a bit here on Wikipedia, including 9 citations and two in-text mentions in
African American–Jewish relations.) I asked her for her expert opinion on this article, and her feeling was that none of it is wrong, but that it presents an overly simplified view of interactions between Black people and Jews at the time. And she feels that pop-culture-oriented sources on Jews' role in the civil rights movement tend to overemphasize the role of faith and Jewish ethics in accounting for Jews' disproportionate role in the movement, rather than looking at more practical factors.
Moving back to my own analysis for a moment, there's a risk here of POV-forking, inasmuch as there is no article on
Jews during the civil rights movement, so this article's scope by definition restricts itself to the more positive half of a complex dynamic. It may be worth discussing whether this article should be rescoped that way, as a time-based sub-article of
African American–Jewish relations rather than an ethnicity-based sub-article of
Civil rights movement. In either eventuality, though, since I see you plan on bringing this to GA, in my opinion this cannot meet
GA standards (specifically 2b, 2c, and 4) without being based primarily on scholarly sources, and to that end I bring the following recommendations from Dr. Greenberg:
The writings of Marc Dollinger. (His most notable work on the subject is Black Power, Jewish Politics.)
The writings of Clive Webb. (Most notable work Fight Against Fear: Southern Jews and Black Civil Rights.)
Wow! I'm delighted for all the constructive criticism. I'm very happy you asked the expert opinion of Ms Greenberg. I do think due to the extensive discussions on the topic that it merits a stand alone article. Regarding scope regarding current relations, I think that is best in African American-Jewish relations page. I thought it was best that this article deal with Jews in the Civil Rights movement specifically and not current politics etc which I feel this page should not cover. Of course, I'll be very happy for your continued help in the matter as well as understand what Mrs Greenberg thinks ought to be included in the article in order for it to be well versed, more informative and accurate and thus deal with the full scope of the matter.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 08:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
the concerns about synthesis and own research re: this pages creation are shared by me too. homer, this feels like a personal project of yours rather than something that belongs on mainspace
Soyembika (
talk) 13:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Jews in the civil rights movement is currently a World history
good article nominee. Nominated by
Homerethegreat (
talk) at 21:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Anyone who has not contributed significantly to (or nominated) this article may review it according to the
good article criteria to decide whether or not to list it as a
good article. To start the review process, click start review and save the page. (See here for the
good article instructions.)
Short description: Jewish organizations and individuals in the American Civil Rights Movement
A fact from Jews in the civil rights movement appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 December 2023 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Civil Rights Movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Civil Rights Movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Civil Rights MovementWikipedia:WikiProject Civil Rights MovementTemplate:WikiProject Civil Rights MovementCivil Rights Movement articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
U.S. state of Georgia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Georgia (U.S. state)Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)Template:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)Georgia (U.S. state) articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
African diaspora on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to
philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by
Lightbursttalk 01:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Recent creation. Article is well-cited. I'm a personal fan of the ALT1 hook but we will need to settle on either "50%" or "50 percent" (not both) before it its promoted. The original hook is fine as well but is a bit too vague for my liking, although I know some people prefer those because they guide readers to actually click on the articles.
Krisgabwoosh (
talk) 22:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Question re page creation
Hello, I am confused why this page was created a month ago, when the page
African American–Jewish relations has been on wikipedia since 2010? Like, why is this a separate new page, when in the lede of African American-Jewish relations the civil rights movement is mentioned.
Soyembika (
talk) 04:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because there is need for a specific entry. This is a focus article on the issue which is not widely enough covered.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 09:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
the article
African American–Jewish relations is far wider in its scope. This article is specific in its scope, referring specifically to Jews and the Civil Rights movement which is notable enough a topic to warrant its own article.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 09:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is 40,000 bytes+. Of course further information can be added. And from what I saw from both articles this article covers more than each one individually. Either how, there is no question of notability. On the contrary, I invite you to add further information and make this article more informative. You're most welcome to do so. Please feel free to ask any other questions.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 17:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Because there is a large amount of american Jews telling black people "you owe us one" re. the Israel situation. This page creation is just as cynical as a right-winger compiling a screed on "Judeo-Bolshevism."
Sheila1988 (
talk) 09:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Although I do not fully understand your comment, it does seem inappropriate and disconnected. Please raise actual problems regarding the topic of the article.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 13:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Concerns about synthesis and lack of scholarly sources
Hi @
Homerethegreat, following up on
our discussion at ERRORS. As I said there, I have a significant concern about this article's reliance on newsmedia sources for very impactful claims, especially given the healthy academic discourse that exists about this topic. When editors are built out of
less-reliable sources like newspapers and magazines, it's easy to fall into
WP:SYNTH and
WP:DUE traps, even if one is proceeding with the best of intentions. That's what's happened with the use of "pivotal role" here, which is, at best, an over-simplification of the academic view on the topic, and at worst risks presenting a false narrative.
I am lucky enough to count as a relative one of the preeminent scholars of Black–Jewish relations, Cheryl Greenberg. (To avoid any accusation that that assessment is biased by kinship: Her Troubling the Waters: Black–Jewish Relations in the American Century is
very widely-cited in academia [moreso than almost any other text in the field], and she is also cited quite a bit here on Wikipedia, including 9 citations and two in-text mentions in
African American–Jewish relations.) I asked her for her expert opinion on this article, and her feeling was that none of it is wrong, but that it presents an overly simplified view of interactions between Black people and Jews at the time. And she feels that pop-culture-oriented sources on Jews' role in the civil rights movement tend to overemphasize the role of faith and Jewish ethics in accounting for Jews' disproportionate role in the movement, rather than looking at more practical factors.
Moving back to my own analysis for a moment, there's a risk here of POV-forking, inasmuch as there is no article on
Jews during the civil rights movement, so this article's scope by definition restricts itself to the more positive half of a complex dynamic. It may be worth discussing whether this article should be rescoped that way, as a time-based sub-article of
African American–Jewish relations rather than an ethnicity-based sub-article of
Civil rights movement. In either eventuality, though, since I see you plan on bringing this to GA, in my opinion this cannot meet
GA standards (specifically 2b, 2c, and 4) without being based primarily on scholarly sources, and to that end I bring the following recommendations from Dr. Greenberg:
The writings of Marc Dollinger. (His most notable work on the subject is Black Power, Jewish Politics.)
The writings of Clive Webb. (Most notable work Fight Against Fear: Southern Jews and Black Civil Rights.)
Wow! I'm delighted for all the constructive criticism. I'm very happy you asked the expert opinion of Ms Greenberg. I do think due to the extensive discussions on the topic that it merits a stand alone article. Regarding scope regarding current relations, I think that is best in African American-Jewish relations page. I thought it was best that this article deal with Jews in the Civil Rights movement specifically and not current politics etc which I feel this page should not cover. Of course, I'll be very happy for your continued help in the matter as well as understand what Mrs Greenberg thinks ought to be included in the article in order for it to be well versed, more informative and accurate and thus deal with the full scope of the matter.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 08:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)reply
the concerns about synthesis and own research re: this pages creation are shared by me too. homer, this feels like a personal project of yours rather than something that belongs on mainspace
Soyembika (
talk) 13:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)reply