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Hi, here Cybershore. Thank you for call attention for this point (as much as I can only comment the edits did by myself) I´ve tried to put referring bibliography, english editions of course, that contains quotations direct related to the "original" text of wikipedia without as possible alter this one. The intention is to provide the online reader access to check information reasserting and contraditory ones without pollute the wikipedia text. When possible the more proper page(s) or Chapter(s) are quoted to save time to reader but beyond I repeat that no book can contain alone all satisfactory explanations about complex facts as the historic ones I strongly believe that a Intelligent and Nonsluggish or Nonlazy reader with a minimal interest and/or knowledge on the subject can find easily by him(her)self on table of contents of each book quoted the exactly point related to the footnote and most important of all take his(her) own conclusions. I´ve also tried to focus just on books easily reasearchables on internet to find, buy and some classics widely used on militar and political studies about this subject.
I´ve post some new titles on bibliography but I´m feel still confused about how to contact the others members to chat about. Have anyone a direct link to ? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cybershore (
talk •
contribs) 00:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Not quite sure what you mean. If you want to discuss an issue about this article, just do it on this talk page. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.
That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.
I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...
It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.
When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.
I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !
To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.
Thank You All
I´ve had see to much focus on the british side of the history based on just one book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.37.150.231 ( talk) 23:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
To make it clear: in the opening paragraph it says that 110 000 Germans lost their lives in this theater. My assumption is that this number refers to the Axis - Italians and Germans. If it is not so (which I doubt), than why are the Italian casualties not mention in the beginning? I hope someone with more knowledge on this matter than me will straighten this out. With respect, Ko Soi IX 10:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I recomend to remove that citation after a reliable source is found or at least show in the article 2 or more sources of killed soldiers per side apart. best wishes , Miguel
The main strategic goal behind operations in the Mediterranean was preserving communication between Britain and her eastern dominions, was it not? For example, that's what Churchill wrote in his Second World War. Tying down (some) German forces sound like revisionism to me. With respect, Ko Soi IX 11:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Nobody knows how the meeting between king Victor Emanuel III and the British 8th army did happen in Brindisi on September 11, 1943. Was it similar to the meeting between Mac Arthur and Hirohito in 1945? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.113.171 ( talk • contribs)
At the prompting of Oberiko I have been giving the structure of the various Italian campaign articles and campaignboxes some thought. In particular I am finally addressing the thorny subject of the Winter Line and its varying definitions in different sources. I am proposing to do the following:
Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
If you really want phases, I would suggest they are:
Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. I had a quick fiddle with the standard campaignbox template to achieve this but it doesn't look very good (you can have a look for yourself in my
sandbox). Not to say it couldn't be improved with more work. I still like your original idea of a sub campaignboxes grouping logical operations together although this goes with excluding the smaller articles (Ortona, San Pietro, Gemano) from the main Italian campaignbox - which won't necessarily please everyone.
Stephen Kirrage
talk -
contribs 17:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I've done #1-4 in my list above because it was uncontrovertial. I'm also thinking about splitting the Gothic Line article but I'm leaving the rest whilst we decide what to do about the campaignbox(es) design.
Stephen Kirrage
talk -
contribs 18:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I like it! My comments would be:
Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I´m cybershore. The confusion and the mispatch on this subject I´ve founded over many books and another references that I´ve read, saw and debate on the last 25 years. I tried not to base on only one reference no matter how good is seems to be. I´ve cross information over books written and/or military files as Documentaries did by americans, british, germans and brazilians by/and or/and about or/and with militars who : A)stood there - italian front - on command or near at command positions of V American Army and/or VIII British Army or Units incorpored them; B)Academics, Profissional Writers or just Amateurs like me who love the subject; C)Veterans who follow the militar carrier after the war but were non Hiofficials at time; D)Veterans who back to civillian life after the war. After I tried eliminate the inconsistences, contradictions over the writings, testimonies and let just the essential ( not detailed at the point to tired the public in general ) about the coincident points. I hope have time to colaborate more on future
I see that Cybershore has reinstated the revert I made earlier. Perhaps it might help if explained my original revert:
In addition to the above criticisms, the new edit is not compatible and is at odds with the narrative of the underlying main articles and is poorly written whilst the previous text provided a well-written and balanced summary of events.
Finally, please do not take this as a personal attack. When reading the above rather than hearing such arguments face to face it is easy to misread the "tone" and spirit in which they are offered (which is intended to be friendly but realistic).
For the above reasons I propose to revert to the previous wording subject to further discussion here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now re-written the section to reflect the above and incorporate relevant recent edits. Hope this is siutable. Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of difficulties on the recent edits made by an IP contributor. I truly welcome contributions from editors whose first language is not English since they often give an extra viewpoint to articles which are Anglo-Saxon orientated. I'm sure this contributor is trying to do that. However:
Please could we follow the Wikipedia ground rules? I am going to revert the recent deletions and request that you justify them here in the talk page if you want to reinstate any of them. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The recent mute revert made today even reinstated the spelling mistakes I had carefully corrected! Please don't do this without some comment here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.
That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.
I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...
It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.
When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.
I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !
To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.
Thank You All
I can't keep up with all the weird pro-Italian fractured English edits to the WWII Italian related articles. I surrender. It feels like a war all in itself. Rob Banzai ( talk) 00:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
A lot of new footnote references have been put in recently which is terrific. However, what is not terrific is that many have no associated page numbers. Putting a footnote in with no page number means you are saying "Here's a fact, you can find it somewhere in this 500 page book". Since footnotes are there to satisfy Wikipedia's requirements that facts are "verifiable", having no page number is not very helpful to the verification process!
Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Revisiting this, I'd like to purpose a (slightly) new suggestion for the article framework:
While it's basically the same as what's already on the page, I think it will be easier for the readers to immediately grasp what each section is about (easier to understand for the uninitiated then the various defensive lines). Oberiko ( talk) 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
or what its name was, the German take over of Italy as it surrendered is basicly not mentioned at all, i for one would like to know more details of this and so on, i dont think theres even a wikipedia article about it, which is a shame, cause disarming most of the Italian military in relatively bloodless fassion was no minor feat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.154.197.79 ( talk) 03:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
There are in line citations to a book by Jackson but it doesn't appear in the references section. Any ideas exactly which book it is? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The figures i added from Jackson provide German casualties only from the invasion of mainland Italy till the end of hostilities (and i believe the same for the Allied forces), should the losses incurred (including prisoners?) be added from the fighting in Sciliy?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Why are Australia and New Zealand, which were independent states, listed on their own, but Canada and South Africa, which were also independent states, listed as subsets of Britain? (India, I can see) CaptainCanada ( talk) 01:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Wasn't Yugoslavia included in campain as well? At the end of war it captured Trieste and it's air forces were located in southern Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.238.216.28 ( talk) 21:50, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Jackson in Vol VI part III of "The Mediterranean and Middle East" (pp. 334-335) gives an in depth breakdown of the Allied casualties during the campaign on the Italian mainland and in Appendix 5 does the same for German casualties. Sadly Volume V does not do the same job for Sicily. At the moment the Sicily article gives a figure of 22,000 Allied casualties, "around" 10,000 Germans and 132,000 Italians using Shaw as a reference. Shaw is not a great source and anyway the Italian figure includes a large unspecified number of troops surrendering when fighting ceased on the island. Since the mainland campaign figures exclude the large numbers which surrendered when hostilities ceased, the numbers are not comparable. Does anyone have a serious source for Sicilian campaign casualties (killed, wounded + missing/captured) that are comparable and can be added to the mainland figures to give an overall Italian campaign figure in this present article? BTW I don't have access to the C.N. Barclay source which cites over 600,000 as the Axis casualties. I don't understand how this figure is arrived at but seems very high compared with the other figures available. It may be partly to do with the fact that, according to Jackson, official OKH figures for the German southern theatre included casualties going back to April 1941 and include around 150,000 casualties not directly associated with the Italian campaign. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 13:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I started adding citation needed comments into the text, but then I realised that huge portions of the article are not cited. I think it's a very well written and historically accurate article, but with so many missing citations, I question it's B Class status. Opinions? Farawayman ( talk) 19:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
This article would benefit substantially from some mentions of what the Italians were actually doing during this campaign. Eregli bob ( talk) 07:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Are the countries being ordered (on the infobox) according to army/navy size or by other means? Thanks! ( Central Data Bank ( talk) 21:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC))
As I've already filled the edit summary box, I thought I would add a bit more here:
What do other editors think?
RASAM ( talk) 21:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The entire air campaign seems to be summed up by a short anecdote about a Flying Officer J. F. Bartlett, who jettisoned a hung bomb in early 1945 whilst over the Adriatic. I have no doubt this is true, but why is it important? Who is Flying Officer J. F. Bartlett? Why has this event been chosen to represent the entire air campaign? Was he awarded a medal? 31.185.218.9 ( talk) 19:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC) I'd suggest cutting this whole little section. It adds nothing, is not part of the history of the campaign, and does not fit its title. (AM)
I've stuck a citation needed tag on Ethiopia being in the belligerents list. I can't find mention of Ethiopia's involvement in any Wikipedia article let alone in the main body of this one. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 16:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
There is a citation error in the opening section. The Keegan's quote refers to all campaigns waged by the Western allies, not only at the Mediterranean theater, as can be checked in the book: the picture Here is clear. 179.111.69.34 ( talk) 22:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
There has been some recent dispute over which nation should go first in the infobox, possibly triggered by some changes I tried to make to the Italian page in order to put the British flag first on there. There were two armies involved in the Italian campaign, the British 8th and American 10th, under the overall command of a British general for most of the campaign. At most points in the campaign there were more British divisions active than american, and at all times the American army contained at least a corps of non-American troops.
/info/en/?search=15th_Army_Group Here, in August 1944, we have 6 British divisions and 3 brigades, to 5 US divisions (1 in reserve). These figures exclude the large British Empire and commonwealth contingent (7 divisions), the British supplied Poles (2 Divisions and a brigade) and the Brazilians' 3 divisions, as well as a Greek Brigade.
/info/en/?search=Gothic_Line_order_of_battle This is even more varied, containing 9 British divisions to 8 American and 7 others.
I think this demonstrates the significance of British forces in this exercise, and more than justifies putting them first in the infobox.
Boynamedsue ( talk) 16:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Tunisian Campaign which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 08:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
The infobox says that Italy became a co-belligerent of the Allies in September 1943, but according to the sources Italy actually entered on 13 October 1943. [1] [2] [3] [4] DavideVeloria88 ( talk) 15:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi all, I am new to these talk pages and Wikipedia editing.
I was wondering why there is no mention of Operation Brazzard in these ital amp sign pages.
A few helpful links are:-
https://www.combinedops.com/Elba%20-%20Op%20Brassard.htm I think this is the best information as it contains first and secondhand reports of what occurred, from hose engaged in the invasion or close relatives. My uncle Victor Parsons is mentioned on these pages.
/info/en/?search=Invasion_of_Elba
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/85/a2943885.shtml
The bbc article contains the following war diary extract”
The post operation report of the action, (DEFE2/ 111,PRO) states; "In conclusion, it is to be appreciated that it is difficult to give an accurate and cohesive report of such an action as this, fought in total darkness, relieved only by the light of gunfire and the flash of explosions. Eyewitness accounts are hard to obtain, as 47 out of the 48 commandos taking part became casualties. Lastly it is impossible to give an accurate chronological summary of events as time went unheeded in the heat of the action." And
The bravery awards for this action, percentage wise, was the highest for any British naval action of the entire war. Sadly, the majority were posthumous. In his post-operational report (W.O. 204/1473. PRO) to the C.in.C. Admiral Troubridge wrote: - "The garrison of the island we had been told was under 800 Germans and reports spoke of their being preponderantly Poles and Czechs of low morale and all set for evacuation. In fact the ration strength was 2,600 Germans who fought extremely well. The defences of Campo Bay were somewhat stronger than intelligence reports had led us to believe, and were in fact, extremely formidable. They had excavated caves in the granite cliffs flanking the beaches and installed 155 mm, 88mm and machine guns in them. Behind the beaches, exactly ranged on the likely places of disembarkation were heavy mortars
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060020184
There are many more besides these which a quick google of “operation brazzard” will return. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbridge276 ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
On 11 June 2021 an IP added a new war crimes section here. This requires some discussion and justification. Firstly, the focus on some instances of Allied war crimes compared to the many thousands attributed to the Axis is WP:UNDUE as is the balance between this issue and the overall narrative of the campaign. Some account of alleged war crimes is certainly valid but not in this way. Secondly, the sourcing is dubious on many occasions. Because of the natiure of the allegations the sourcing should be impeccable. It is not. Opening this thread to begin the discussion. DeCausa ( talk) 21:30, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Please can a better form of words be used to replace this sentence: "The German 10th Army were allowed to get away and, in the next few weeks, may have been responsible for doubling the Allied casualties in the next few months."
Unclear over what time period the doubling of Allied casualties occurred, was it a few weeks or a few months? John a s ( talk) 22:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
This seems to be a back and fourth thing for a while concerning articles about the Italian Social Republic. The official state flag of the Social Republic is tri color flag with no designs on it, just like the modern Italian flag. The one with the Eagle on it is specifically the war flag.
The standard rule for Wikipedia is that when listing a country in something like an Infobox concerning a battle or war, the country should be listed alongside its official state flag, in this case the standard tricolor flag. Digital Herodotus ( talk) 14:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm amazed that there is almost no mention of this battle anywhere in Wikipedia. Not only was it the first time the US 10th Mountain Division saw combat, more importantly it involved a successful nighttime assault up a cliff face that was previously considered unclimbable -- thus proving the ability of the US to field & train an effective alpine unit. -- llywrch ( talk) 14:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Boynamedsue: this edit summary is a WP:PA, compounded by this. Don't do it. What was there may or may not be right, but you need to AGF. Havsjö, an experienced editor, replaced the flag here with what appears to be, on its face, a reasonable explanation. A single edit editor then replaced the flag with the modern Palestinian one which is clearly nonsense and which I reverted. Now, I don't actually know what the best representation is - that should be discussed here - but to start bandying around accusations of vandalism in that context is unacceptable. Can you please explain why Havsjö's explanation is wrong. And Havsjö, you might want to weigh in. DeCausa ( talk) 07:32, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
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Hi, here Cybershore. Thank you for call attention for this point (as much as I can only comment the edits did by myself) I´ve tried to put referring bibliography, english editions of course, that contains quotations direct related to the "original" text of wikipedia without as possible alter this one. The intention is to provide the online reader access to check information reasserting and contraditory ones without pollute the wikipedia text. When possible the more proper page(s) or Chapter(s) are quoted to save time to reader but beyond I repeat that no book can contain alone all satisfactory explanations about complex facts as the historic ones I strongly believe that a Intelligent and Nonsluggish or Nonlazy reader with a minimal interest and/or knowledge on the subject can find easily by him(her)self on table of contents of each book quoted the exactly point related to the footnote and most important of all take his(her) own conclusions. I´ve also tried to focus just on books easily reasearchables on internet to find, buy and some classics widely used on militar and political studies about this subject.
I´ve post some new titles on bibliography but I´m feel still confused about how to contact the others members to chat about. Have anyone a direct link to ? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cybershore (
talk •
contribs) 00:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Not quite sure what you mean. If you want to discuss an issue about this article, just do it on this talk page. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.
That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.
I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...
It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.
When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.
I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !
To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.
Thank You All
I´ve had see to much focus on the british side of the history based on just one book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.37.150.231 ( talk) 23:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
To make it clear: in the opening paragraph it says that 110 000 Germans lost their lives in this theater. My assumption is that this number refers to the Axis - Italians and Germans. If it is not so (which I doubt), than why are the Italian casualties not mention in the beginning? I hope someone with more knowledge on this matter than me will straighten this out. With respect, Ko Soi IX 10:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I recomend to remove that citation after a reliable source is found or at least show in the article 2 or more sources of killed soldiers per side apart. best wishes , Miguel
The main strategic goal behind operations in the Mediterranean was preserving communication between Britain and her eastern dominions, was it not? For example, that's what Churchill wrote in his Second World War. Tying down (some) German forces sound like revisionism to me. With respect, Ko Soi IX 11:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Nobody knows how the meeting between king Victor Emanuel III and the British 8th army did happen in Brindisi on September 11, 1943. Was it similar to the meeting between Mac Arthur and Hirohito in 1945? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.113.171 ( talk • contribs)
At the prompting of Oberiko I have been giving the structure of the various Italian campaign articles and campaignboxes some thought. In particular I am finally addressing the thorny subject of the Winter Line and its varying definitions in different sources. I am proposing to do the following:
Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
If you really want phases, I would suggest they are:
Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. I had a quick fiddle with the standard campaignbox template to achieve this but it doesn't look very good (you can have a look for yourself in my
sandbox). Not to say it couldn't be improved with more work. I still like your original idea of a sub campaignboxes grouping logical operations together although this goes with excluding the smaller articles (Ortona, San Pietro, Gemano) from the main Italian campaignbox - which won't necessarily please everyone.
Stephen Kirrage
talk -
contribs 17:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I've done #1-4 in my list above because it was uncontrovertial. I'm also thinking about splitting the Gothic Line article but I'm leaving the rest whilst we decide what to do about the campaignbox(es) design.
Stephen Kirrage
talk -
contribs 18:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I like it! My comments would be:
Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I´m cybershore. The confusion and the mispatch on this subject I´ve founded over many books and another references that I´ve read, saw and debate on the last 25 years. I tried not to base on only one reference no matter how good is seems to be. I´ve cross information over books written and/or military files as Documentaries did by americans, british, germans and brazilians by/and or/and about or/and with militars who : A)stood there - italian front - on command or near at command positions of V American Army and/or VIII British Army or Units incorpored them; B)Academics, Profissional Writers or just Amateurs like me who love the subject; C)Veterans who follow the militar carrier after the war but were non Hiofficials at time; D)Veterans who back to civillian life after the war. After I tried eliminate the inconsistences, contradictions over the writings, testimonies and let just the essential ( not detailed at the point to tired the public in general ) about the coincident points. I hope have time to colaborate more on future
I see that Cybershore has reinstated the revert I made earlier. Perhaps it might help if explained my original revert:
In addition to the above criticisms, the new edit is not compatible and is at odds with the narrative of the underlying main articles and is poorly written whilst the previous text provided a well-written and balanced summary of events.
Finally, please do not take this as a personal attack. When reading the above rather than hearing such arguments face to face it is easy to misread the "tone" and spirit in which they are offered (which is intended to be friendly but realistic).
For the above reasons I propose to revert to the previous wording subject to further discussion here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now re-written the section to reflect the above and incorporate relevant recent edits. Hope this is siutable. Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of difficulties on the recent edits made by an IP contributor. I truly welcome contributions from editors whose first language is not English since they often give an extra viewpoint to articles which are Anglo-Saxon orientated. I'm sure this contributor is trying to do that. However:
Please could we follow the Wikipedia ground rules? I am going to revert the recent deletions and request that you justify them here in the talk page if you want to reinstate any of them. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The recent mute revert made today even reinstated the spelling mistakes I had carefully corrected! Please don't do this without some comment here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.
That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.
I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...
It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.
When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.
I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !
To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.
Thank You All
I can't keep up with all the weird pro-Italian fractured English edits to the WWII Italian related articles. I surrender. It feels like a war all in itself. Rob Banzai ( talk) 00:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
A lot of new footnote references have been put in recently which is terrific. However, what is not terrific is that many have no associated page numbers. Putting a footnote in with no page number means you are saying "Here's a fact, you can find it somewhere in this 500 page book". Since footnotes are there to satisfy Wikipedia's requirements that facts are "verifiable", having no page number is not very helpful to the verification process!
Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Revisiting this, I'd like to purpose a (slightly) new suggestion for the article framework:
While it's basically the same as what's already on the page, I think it will be easier for the readers to immediately grasp what each section is about (easier to understand for the uninitiated then the various defensive lines). Oberiko ( talk) 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
or what its name was, the German take over of Italy as it surrendered is basicly not mentioned at all, i for one would like to know more details of this and so on, i dont think theres even a wikipedia article about it, which is a shame, cause disarming most of the Italian military in relatively bloodless fassion was no minor feat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.154.197.79 ( talk) 03:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
There are in line citations to a book by Jackson but it doesn't appear in the references section. Any ideas exactly which book it is? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The figures i added from Jackson provide German casualties only from the invasion of mainland Italy till the end of hostilities (and i believe the same for the Allied forces), should the losses incurred (including prisoners?) be added from the fighting in Sciliy?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Why are Australia and New Zealand, which were independent states, listed on their own, but Canada and South Africa, which were also independent states, listed as subsets of Britain? (India, I can see) CaptainCanada ( talk) 01:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Wasn't Yugoslavia included in campain as well? At the end of war it captured Trieste and it's air forces were located in southern Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.238.216.28 ( talk) 21:50, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Jackson in Vol VI part III of "The Mediterranean and Middle East" (pp. 334-335) gives an in depth breakdown of the Allied casualties during the campaign on the Italian mainland and in Appendix 5 does the same for German casualties. Sadly Volume V does not do the same job for Sicily. At the moment the Sicily article gives a figure of 22,000 Allied casualties, "around" 10,000 Germans and 132,000 Italians using Shaw as a reference. Shaw is not a great source and anyway the Italian figure includes a large unspecified number of troops surrendering when fighting ceased on the island. Since the mainland campaign figures exclude the large numbers which surrendered when hostilities ceased, the numbers are not comparable. Does anyone have a serious source for Sicilian campaign casualties (killed, wounded + missing/captured) that are comparable and can be added to the mainland figures to give an overall Italian campaign figure in this present article? BTW I don't have access to the C.N. Barclay source which cites over 600,000 as the Axis casualties. I don't understand how this figure is arrived at but seems very high compared with the other figures available. It may be partly to do with the fact that, according to Jackson, official OKH figures for the German southern theatre included casualties going back to April 1941 and include around 150,000 casualties not directly associated with the Italian campaign. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 13:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I started adding citation needed comments into the text, but then I realised that huge portions of the article are not cited. I think it's a very well written and historically accurate article, but with so many missing citations, I question it's B Class status. Opinions? Farawayman ( talk) 19:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
This article would benefit substantially from some mentions of what the Italians were actually doing during this campaign. Eregli bob ( talk) 07:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Are the countries being ordered (on the infobox) according to army/navy size or by other means? Thanks! ( Central Data Bank ( talk) 21:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC))
As I've already filled the edit summary box, I thought I would add a bit more here:
What do other editors think?
RASAM ( talk) 21:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The entire air campaign seems to be summed up by a short anecdote about a Flying Officer J. F. Bartlett, who jettisoned a hung bomb in early 1945 whilst over the Adriatic. I have no doubt this is true, but why is it important? Who is Flying Officer J. F. Bartlett? Why has this event been chosen to represent the entire air campaign? Was he awarded a medal? 31.185.218.9 ( talk) 19:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC) I'd suggest cutting this whole little section. It adds nothing, is not part of the history of the campaign, and does not fit its title. (AM)
I've stuck a citation needed tag on Ethiopia being in the belligerents list. I can't find mention of Ethiopia's involvement in any Wikipedia article let alone in the main body of this one. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 16:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
There is a citation error in the opening section. The Keegan's quote refers to all campaigns waged by the Western allies, not only at the Mediterranean theater, as can be checked in the book: the picture Here is clear. 179.111.69.34 ( talk) 22:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
There has been some recent dispute over which nation should go first in the infobox, possibly triggered by some changes I tried to make to the Italian page in order to put the British flag first on there. There were two armies involved in the Italian campaign, the British 8th and American 10th, under the overall command of a British general for most of the campaign. At most points in the campaign there were more British divisions active than american, and at all times the American army contained at least a corps of non-American troops.
/info/en/?search=15th_Army_Group Here, in August 1944, we have 6 British divisions and 3 brigades, to 5 US divisions (1 in reserve). These figures exclude the large British Empire and commonwealth contingent (7 divisions), the British supplied Poles (2 Divisions and a brigade) and the Brazilians' 3 divisions, as well as a Greek Brigade.
/info/en/?search=Gothic_Line_order_of_battle This is even more varied, containing 9 British divisions to 8 American and 7 others.
I think this demonstrates the significance of British forces in this exercise, and more than justifies putting them first in the infobox.
Boynamedsue ( talk) 16:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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The infobox says that Italy became a co-belligerent of the Allies in September 1943, but according to the sources Italy actually entered on 13 October 1943. [1] [2] [3] [4] DavideVeloria88 ( talk) 15:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi all, I am new to these talk pages and Wikipedia editing.
I was wondering why there is no mention of Operation Brazzard in these ital amp sign pages.
A few helpful links are:-
https://www.combinedops.com/Elba%20-%20Op%20Brassard.htm I think this is the best information as it contains first and secondhand reports of what occurred, from hose engaged in the invasion or close relatives. My uncle Victor Parsons is mentioned on these pages.
/info/en/?search=Invasion_of_Elba
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/85/a2943885.shtml
The bbc article contains the following war diary extract”
The post operation report of the action, (DEFE2/ 111,PRO) states; "In conclusion, it is to be appreciated that it is difficult to give an accurate and cohesive report of such an action as this, fought in total darkness, relieved only by the light of gunfire and the flash of explosions. Eyewitness accounts are hard to obtain, as 47 out of the 48 commandos taking part became casualties. Lastly it is impossible to give an accurate chronological summary of events as time went unheeded in the heat of the action." And
The bravery awards for this action, percentage wise, was the highest for any British naval action of the entire war. Sadly, the majority were posthumous. In his post-operational report (W.O. 204/1473. PRO) to the C.in.C. Admiral Troubridge wrote: - "The garrison of the island we had been told was under 800 Germans and reports spoke of their being preponderantly Poles and Czechs of low morale and all set for evacuation. In fact the ration strength was 2,600 Germans who fought extremely well. The defences of Campo Bay were somewhat stronger than intelligence reports had led us to believe, and were in fact, extremely formidable. They had excavated caves in the granite cliffs flanking the beaches and installed 155 mm, 88mm and machine guns in them. Behind the beaches, exactly ranged on the likely places of disembarkation were heavy mortars
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060020184
There are many more besides these which a quick google of “operation brazzard” will return. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbridge276 ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
On 11 June 2021 an IP added a new war crimes section here. This requires some discussion and justification. Firstly, the focus on some instances of Allied war crimes compared to the many thousands attributed to the Axis is WP:UNDUE as is the balance between this issue and the overall narrative of the campaign. Some account of alleged war crimes is certainly valid but not in this way. Secondly, the sourcing is dubious on many occasions. Because of the natiure of the allegations the sourcing should be impeccable. It is not. Opening this thread to begin the discussion. DeCausa ( talk) 21:30, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Please can a better form of words be used to replace this sentence: "The German 10th Army were allowed to get away and, in the next few weeks, may have been responsible for doubling the Allied casualties in the next few months."
Unclear over what time period the doubling of Allied casualties occurred, was it a few weeks or a few months? John a s ( talk) 22:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
This seems to be a back and fourth thing for a while concerning articles about the Italian Social Republic. The official state flag of the Social Republic is tri color flag with no designs on it, just like the modern Italian flag. The one with the Eagle on it is specifically the war flag.
The standard rule for Wikipedia is that when listing a country in something like an Infobox concerning a battle or war, the country should be listed alongside its official state flag, in this case the standard tricolor flag. Digital Herodotus ( talk) 14:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm amazed that there is almost no mention of this battle anywhere in Wikipedia. Not only was it the first time the US 10th Mountain Division saw combat, more importantly it involved a successful nighttime assault up a cliff face that was previously considered unclimbable -- thus proving the ability of the US to field & train an effective alpine unit. -- llywrch ( talk) 14:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Boynamedsue: this edit summary is a WP:PA, compounded by this. Don't do it. What was there may or may not be right, but you need to AGF. Havsjö, an experienced editor, replaced the flag here with what appears to be, on its face, a reasonable explanation. A single edit editor then replaced the flag with the modern Palestinian one which is clearly nonsense and which I reverted. Now, I don't actually know what the best representation is - that should be discussed here - but to start bandying around accusations of vandalism in that context is unacceptable. Can you please explain why Havsjö's explanation is wrong. And Havsjö, you might want to weigh in. DeCausa ( talk) 07:32, 9 September 2023 (UTC)