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A newly created article related to this one, Allegations of Chinese apartheid, has been nominated for deletion. Comments are invited on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 07:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I am participant of the discussion about the deletion of the chinese article. There they say, this article was the first article about allegation of apartheid anywhere, which appeared on Wikipedia. I´m no expert of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. I don´t have the knowledge to determine, weather there is apartheid or not. Now I would like to know, why someone choose this name. If there is apartheid, why didn´t you call it Apartheid in Israel or something like that. If there´s no apartheid, why do we need an article about nonsense, anyone told.-- Thw1309 17:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The verifiable material from the recently deleted article Allegations of Chinese apartheid have been merged into Human rights in the People's Republic of China based on the AfD closing statement.
My proposal is to find a suitable article to merge the content of this article, based on the same arguments. It could be merged into one of the articles related to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I am placing similar proposals on all other articles in the "Allegations of XXXX apartheid" series. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of plausible proposals that merit discussion, including Jossi's above. However, it will be hard to find consensus unless folks can agree on the underlying grounds or principles for moving forward. I suggest working off of the core policies of Wikipedia. Here are two draft statements, which reflect what I've learned from various sides of this dispute.
I believe that if consensus forms around these two statements, then we have a sufficient basis for either renaming or merging the article. So, which, if any, of these statements (G1, G2) are approximately acceptable to you? Can you suggest friendly amendments that would make these statements more acceptable to all parties? Thanks very much for hearing me out.
HG |
Talk 11:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Government of Israel is highly sensitive to comparisons to South Africa. Officials bring it up to deny that occupation practices have anything to do with white South African rule. Indeed, there are great differences. What happens here is not apartheid. Palestinians are trying to get out of Israeli society, not into it. But there are chilling similarities. Here, as there, a people suffer humiliation without recourse, without voice or vote. Men and women are at the mercy of 18-year-olds with guns. Law is manipulated to serve the rulers, until justice is eaten away. The press is censored, and the press is blamed. And here, as there, the process corrupts the rulers. Israel being the concerned place it is, the army has actually sent psychologists to its troops in Gaza to help them mentally with the orders to beat people. But the problem lies deeper. It lies in the very fact of occupation. The longer it goes on, the more true will be a comment made to an Israeli friend by Prof. Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins University. "The ultimate revenge of the Palestinians will be to turn you into South Africa."
If the settlers get their way, Israel will de facto or de jure annex the West Bank and Gaza. And if current Palestinian birth rates continue, by around the year 2010 there will be more Palestinians than Jews living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza combined. When that happens, the demand of the college anti-Israel movements will change. They won't bother anymore with divestiture. They will simply demand: "One Man, One Vote"...If you think it is hard to defend Israel on campus today, imagine doing it in 2010, when the colonial settlers have so locked Israel into the territories it can rule them only by apartheid-like policies.
Comparison with Israel has become an insistent theme in South Africa when people there discuss their country's actions. It keeps popping up, so heatedly that it inevitably involves America – as though the United States does and must have the same attitude toward both countries.
I agree with the G1 and G2 statements (though G2 is a little ambiguously worded), and I concur with the responses posted by Tiamut and Cerejota. I am not terribly bothered about titles; my chief concern is that an average Wikipedia user who has heard about the Israel-South Africa analogy can find a detailed, interesting, and thorough article about it. My objection to the word "allegations" in the title has always been that it's the wrong word, not that it's unfair; the average reader (i.e. one not idiomatically conditioned by disputes internal to Wikipedia) would think an article called Allegations of Israeli apartheid detailed formal charges, not contentious descriptions and comparisons.
As I've pointed out directly above as well as in the "proposal" section, some of the best material on the Israel-South Africa analogy – including the Adam/Moodley book – is not centrally concerned with documenting human-rights abuses or with evaluating and comparing state guilt in same, so merging into a new or existing "human-rights" article seems ill-advised. The only thing I'd add to this is that I think we've misconstrued the Adam & Moodley book as somehow sui generis, when in fact it's very much representative of a significant body of similar work. I think the strong web bias of Wikipedia sourcing has played a role in our perceptions here; after all, the entire introductory chapter of Seeking Mandela is available online, so most editors here have become aware of its authors. There are many others, a few of which I've listed in my longer comment in the "Proposals" section above.-- G-Dett 20:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Interim response from HG. I appreciate all your responses. Based on your feedback, let me give you a head up about my current thinking. For those who support the grounds (G1-G2), I'm working on potential next discussion items on this page. Not sure I should float any more trial balloons without more feedback on the process steps (see below). Or maybe I'll try it anyway. Thanks, folks. HG | Talk 13:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The follow proposed statement of principle is drawn from WP Naming conventions. I believe this statement to be reasonable. Still, our exploration of different Article Names, and a Requested Move, is not contingent on acceptance of these grounds. (G1-G2 are sufficient.) HG | Talk 01:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggested question: How, if at all, does the Self-identification Principle (G3) apply to the noun phrase "Israeli apartheid" in our current AoIA Title? Note: The initial comments have been moved from below, or from Talk:Mediation Cabal. HG | Talk 01:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved from Talk:Mediation Cabal --
Moved from below (started by BYT as " Israeli apartheid", thanks!)
Personally, I feel the article should be called simply Israeli apartheid, which currently redirects, and should address usage and the controversy attending. Compare Islamofascism, which explores usage of that controversial term. BYT 17:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Please read this with a charitable eye, as a draft listing. The idea would be to draw upon this list to construct the Article Name and, perhaps, recommended headings (or naming conventions). This listing is not designed, at all, to prejudge the relevance of other applicable Wikipedia policies. Such policies may determine whether the underlying content can justify the need for such headings, e.g., requiring verifiable sources, no undue weight, etc. I apologize if this seems premature; much of this discussed in prose form above, w/Tiamut.
I've arranged this list in the order of terms to replace "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" with significantly more neutral (NPOV) terms. HG | Talk 10:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Replacing "Allegations of"
Replacing "Israeli" and the comparative referent for "apartheid"
Replacing the South African referent for "apartheid"
Comparative terms. (Comparison is implied by the current title.)
Comments and proposed revisions to this list:
I must thank you for your approach, it is refreshing to see some civility for a change. The diffs for my proposal [2] and [3].
1) Policy relevant to titles not resolving POV:
A Wikipedia article must have one definitive name.[5] The general restriction against POV forks applies to article names as well. If a genuine naming controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources. Otherwise, alternative article names should not be used as means of settling POV disputes among Wikipedia contributors. Also disfavored are double or "segmented" article names, in the form of: Flat Earth/Round Earth; or Flat Earth (Round Earth).[6] Even if a synthesis can be found, like Shape of the Earth, or Earth (Debated shapes), it may not be appropriate, especially if it is a novel usage coined specifically to resolve a POV fork.
Which follows with specific guidelines on how to solve controversies vis-a-vis titles:
WP:NCON#How to make a choice among controversial names
Proper nouns
The three key principles are:
*The most common use of a name takes precedence;
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
I think a large part of the conflicts in this and related articles would be solved if people followed policy, as it stands, instead of trying to meatpuppet each side of the POV into submission, tire the community with endless controversy, and/or willfully violate policy to try to get a successful AfD (this has been done all over the place by both sides of the POV)
2) I think "Allegations" is stupid in the title because of WP:WTA, which advices against "Allegation" in titles. It is a violation of policy imposed by consensus, in many case by editors who have voted for AfD based precisely on the title. Yes, the logic here is that circular. Some are trying to get "apartheid" (outside of South Africa) as a word to avoid, however we will cross that bridge when we get to it.
I do not want to sound controversial, but I am experienced enough to know that consensus is whatever keeps admins from pulling wheelies on each other ;) - if an admin can survive de-syoping by doing an action, s/he will do it even if it is not quite consensus. There was an almost-but-not-quite-wheel/move-war-to-which-ArbCom-said-we-really-don't-know-so-lets-give-amnesty-to-all-the-involved as part of the "debate" to rename this article from Israeli apartheid. Thats in a nutshell how the article ended up with the sorry excuse of a policy violation we have as a title.
I hope I have answered all of your questions, and by all means join in and try to help us move things forward, instead of in circles. Thanks! -- Cerejota 06:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed merge tags because no discussion and rationale was given in the target pages, nor has there been any meaningful discussion in this talk page or the centralized discussion.
If the editor wants to re-propose, I suggest the following:
1) Provide a rationale here and allow debate to flow before proposing. Proposing a controversial merge in a controversial article out of the blue is not very civil.
2) If you still want to propose the merger, use one merge-multiple tag in the top, and specify sectioning in the actual discussion. This makes clear the intentions, and is less disruptive. Section merge tags are meant only when a section and not the whole article is meant to be merged to a different page. You were using it incorrectly.
Thanks!-- Cerejota 07:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
There has been no discussion of section merges, and there is no consensus for addition of the (multiple) section merge tags, each of which would need to be discussed individually. BYT 17:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
If you think a section should be merged, could you please start a discussion head about the section that you think should be merged? BYT 17:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
It could be, but I think the content is more appropriate here, and do not support adding section merge tags. Could you please start a new discussion head when you raise one of these issues? BYT 17:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Cancelled. This straw poll was a well-intentioned idea but it's not ready for prime time. It needs more conversation and development. So I've removed the straw poll text, which you can find in this diff if you are interested. I've left up the initial responses from CJCurrie and Jossi. I still think it may be worth pursuing the exploratory conversation(s) above, starting with basic principles with which to evaluate the Article Name and subheadings. Hope this wasn't too distracting. Thanks. HG | Talk 04:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Back to basics. Thanks to all of you (and others) for replying above. In trying to be responsive to your concerns, I would appreciate each of you to response and, maybe agree, on G1-3 above and now three Procedural Principles Toward Consensus (P1-1) about why to explore a small step, a synonymous new name, even if worded more awkwardly. HG | Talk 10:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
In the real world ... encyclopedias chase actual human experience.
For a long time there was not a meaningful, mainstream debate about whether Israel's policies constituted apartheid. Then usage accelerated, positions shifted, and the debate made it into the mainstream. WP is usually on the cutting edge of these kinds of issues, which means we have interesting choices to make.
And here we are again.
Now, the policy on naming reads: "When naming or writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations themselves use."
Yet, at the same time, global political dialogue has polarized, and there are catch-phrases floating about that deserve independent articles.
How to square this circle?
The way we have settled this in the past, if I may be blunt about it, is to focus on mainstream usage and things like whether there is a dictionary entry for a term, and to simply ignore the policy above.
Witness Islamofascism, which is manifestly about Muslims and Islam -- yet no Muslim I've ever met has self-identified as a fascist. There may be Israelis who adamantly label their government's policies as apartheid, but I've never encountered any. Yet lots and lots of editors felt it was important to strike a blow against "censorship" by endorsing, and defending, the Islamofascism article title, and lots of editors in this dispute, as at Islamofascism, are fast-forwarding over the policy cited above, and reject the possibility of appendages like (term) and (epithet) in the article title.
So here's my proposal. If we are willing to apply the policy above even-handedly to all articles that describe "specific people or specific groups," we could ...
Note that I am proposing, in this case, that we move in tandem on both articles simultaneously. It seems likely that other articles might benefit from such an approach in weeks and months to come. BYT 15:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could gain consensus more quickly on this move if we consider "islamofascism" a seperate issue. Let's discuss the merits of renaming this article to BYT's proposed name. I, for one, am willing to join G-Dett in ignoring precedent if it will settle this age old naming dispute.-- Urthogie 20:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
No title with both "Israel" and "apartheid" is acceptable to me at this point. This name was adopted as part of a temporary compromise, but time's up, and I see very little spirit of compromise from the people who think this is a valid article. Lets rename this to something NPOV or just get rid of this travesty of an article. It makes Wikipedia look stupid. 6SJ7 03:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7's position is not new, and he has courage enough to state it. However, I think is wrong to delete/merge reliably sourced, notable, encyclopedic material just because he doesn't like it.
Hyperbolic statements like "It makes Wikipedia look stupid" are also extremely unproductive, some argue that Exploding whale makes wikipedia look stupid, and it is a FA. Unfortunately for him and his stance, the existence of New antisemitism, Pallywood, and the crown-jewel Islamofascism, and other non-neutrally titled, articles in wikipedia argues against his view: wikipedia has no problem with controversially titled articles as long as they are properly sourced, presented neutrally, and are not OR. That said, please see bellow for proposals that do contain Israel and apartheid in the title but are separate enough for the topic be be built up. Thanks!-- Cerejota 05:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a proposal as to what to do with the quote farm issue? My proposal is that we issue only a few prominent examples. Nothing is gained by quoting ad nauseum. For the section on the allegation being used in reference to the territories, the examples could be:
For the section on the allegation being used in relation to Israel itself the examples could be:
This would let the article spend most of its time discussing the allegations, rather than quoting them in list-like form.-- Urthogie 15:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I disagree with the implication that titles should be neutral, as per my policy based explanation. I want to change the title to avoid quotefarm and better article quality, not to satisfy POV-pushers. Besides, "allegation" is a WP:WTA. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Today, the implied racism of the term is so strong that the use of <snip> in most situations is a social taboo. Many American magazines and newspapers will not even print the word in full, instead using n*gg*r, n**ger, n——, or simply "the N-word." -- from the WP article
The problem here is that your are selectively interpreting WP:NPOV. It specifically states that naming should not be used to resolve POV conflicts. Thanks! -- Cerejota 06:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Jossi et alia, for the purposes of a "good NPOV title to calm the spirits around here" I'm wondering if you might consider the following ideas. First, that a minimalist way to achieve an NPOV alternative would be to find a SYNONYMOUS title, which retains the same basic meaning (thereby avoiding the misreadings Ptk-fgs mentioned)? Second, do you think you might be able to convince folks to live with (not their first choice) an NPOV title that might be awkward stylistically, yet can calm the spirits by being synonymous. (Shamelessly self-serving plug: I tried to construct a convincing argument for an NPOV synonym above, leading to principle P3. Could you look at this for a sec? Thanks!) HG | Talk 04:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Israel and apartheid-era South Africa analogies? Debate on Israel and apartheid-era South Africa?-- Cerejota 05:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota writes, above:
I think this is why I now advocate "apartheid-era South Africa". I have always recognized here that "Israeli apartheid" is used as an epithet (in fact it has to do with how this page was first created!). This use comes to dominate this article, including the lead, whereas there is a much more wider body that studies this from a less polemical perspective... what Adam and Moodley call "pragmatic". So perhaps using "apartheid" can lead to confusion about the topic at hand. We do a disservice to our readers if we are not giving this topic its own article. We do not put Nigger under Racial epithets, we have Nigger. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT -- To keep the Talk page cohesive, it's often better to reply to somebody immediately after their comment or in an existing section, like Should titles be neutral?, above. Otherwise, we may get slapped with a Repeating Argument ticket. (Feel free to move this comment with yours, thanks!) Also: Me, my family and friends are deeply hurt ("Offended") by these words and, in order to be civil please don't use the actual N-word. I don't take my epithets straight, thank you. Ok, back to your points:
There is a big difference between Islamofacism that is a political epithet or political classification of unnamed people or organizations in the title of an article, and apartheid as an epithet used against a whole country in the title. The comparison is unfair an asymmetrical. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Per BYT above (and Urthogie further above, or somewhere anyway), I would be happy with Israeli "apartheid" controversy, scare quotes and all. As this is an IAR moment, I am not keen to do the same with Islamofascism. If others want to pursue a change of this sort for Islamofascism, that is their business, but I would urge everyone to abstain from linkage – that is, from making their support for changes to this page contingent on changes to other pages. To pursue linkage or "system-wide NPOV" is to repeat (albeit in lesser form) the WP:POINTishness that got us into this mess in the first place.
While I accept BYT's reasoning that this is more of a controversy than a debate, I would point him to Cerejota's comments above, and mine elsewhere on this page (and HG's talk page), regarding what Cerejota calls the "wider body [of work] that studies this from a less polemical perspective." The subject of this article isn't purely or even primarily a food fight; though given the stoked passions of all of us contributing to this page, and the internet source bias of Wikipedians more generally, we have tended to emphasize the food fight disproportionately. The bombshell reverberations of Carter's book have also brought this food fight to the fore; his being a U.S. president and Nobel laureate, and one whose rhetoric and persona are heavily coded as Christian, and the way he implicitly draws upon these forms of moral authority as he levels the charge of "apartheid" in the very title of a prominent book – all these factors seem to have conspired to create heightened controversy. My analysis of the Carter controversy is open to dispute, of course, but the fact is, comparisons between South Africa and Israel were a commonplace among Israel-watchers on all parts of the political spectrum long before Carter. It would be difficult to imagine a mainstream commentator more pro-Israel, pro-Likud, pro-Sharon, etc., than William Safire, and yet here he is 1985:
...[I]f you enjoy the cognitive dissonance that comes with trying to hold contradictory beliefs at the same time, try this: How can defenders of Israel's right to Judea and Samaria, where Arabs outnumber Jews 10 to 1, call for "one man, one vote" in South Africa, where non-whites outnumber whites four to one? Part of the American agony over policy toward Pretoria is the exposure of our internal inconsistencies...
Safire then goes on to extol the virtues of realism and pragmatism latent in such forms of "cognitive dissonance." No one has ever accused Safire of trading in anti-Israel "epithets" (!) If we're not moths to the hottest flames of rhetoric, and if we resist the pull of recentism, this article can have a larger, more interesting and nuanced subject than we've yet covered.-- G-Dett 15:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Some maybe consider the terms "XXX apartheid" as epithets, but if those terms are here to stay, then I think each term should be properly defined, just to avoid any confusion. I pasted all definitions from the "xxx apartheid" articles into one Apartheid/Temporary and let's see what is missing or what is wrong. For example, in the Brazil article the term is wrongly defined. There are no allegations to existence of this word, everyone in Brazil is using it and no one takes offence, but there is no analogy to South Africa, because such policy doesn't exist and never did. It's just another idiom meaning something else. I didn't change nothing in the texts but replaced "allegations of XXX apartheid draw..." by "XXX apartheid is the allegation which draws...". Feel free to fix whatever you think should be done. Maybe it helps to reach the middle ground. greg park avenue 16:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick comment-- shouldn't both words of the phrase be in quotes? "Israeli apartheid" debate? Or is there something lost by quoting the entire phrase?-- User:Urthogie 19:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
...let me lay it out clearly.
I write this because this is basically because all I see is variations on theme, where what we need is a radical reworking of the purpose, state and title of this article. It must be moved away definitely from its origin as an anti-Israeli rant, it must abandon quotefarm (and the "Desmond Carter" fetish), and it must change into a title that sources verify, and is not in violation of WP:WTA but clearly and without weasel-wording describes what it is about. Thanks! -- Cerejota 23:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil writes;
But the phenomenon addressed by this article is not a debate on Israel and apartheid-era South Africa. The phenomenon addressed by this article is that the word "apartheid" is applied to Israel ("Apartheid Israel") or to its actions and policies ("Apartheid wall", "Israeli apartheid", "guilty of the crime of apartheid", etc.) as if apartheid had a well-defined meaning outside its ZA roots but without any consistency in applying the term to similar (or more similar to historical ZA) situations.
Hear, hear. I would only add what I suspect people have heard enough of, that the analogue between a (dormant) historical phenomenon and a present-tense series of events is, again, eerily reminiscent of what was decided at Islamofascism.
Rightly or wrongly, those of us who pointed out that ACTUAL HISTORICAL fascism (i.e., fusion of corporate and state sectors, heavy nationalism/xenophobia, racism) was wackily different from the Sunnah of the Prophet, were overruled.
The fact that large numbers of people who neither understood or cared about such academic niceties WERE EQUATING the two -- THAT, we were told, was what the article was about, "And yes, if you want, you can quote history and political science scholars who disagree."
I believe it will be up to responsible editors with an interest in responsible presentation of the facts to make sure the content here doesn't get as twisted as the content there has gotten, whatever the naming decision here ends up being. BYT 11:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Here are some proposals:
No quotes would be used. This actually sounds mildly encyclopedic, and would lead the article towards a discussion of the controversy rather than a quotefarm of allegations and multiparagraph quotes on the palestinian struggle that mention the word "apartheid". We could have a simple section called "Examples" which provided the various uses of the analogy, and then lead into an indepth discussion of its use by secondary sources.
I oppose merely using Israeli apartheid analogy as Mackan suggested earlier because this would have an article in which the entire Middle East Conflict was reduced to "apartheid", and then a pro vs con of that POV. The real notability of this article comes from the allegation itself.-- User:Urthogie 20:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
These are the titles I propose:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
As noted above, I'm dubious about "debate." Have people ruled out "Israeli apartheid" controversy or Israeli "apartheid" controversy? 22:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do anything? "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" isn't a great title, but most of the alternatives are worse. -- John Nagle 21:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I am with Andyvphil in wanting a historical narrative. Cerejota, are you quite sure that "the problem with a historical narrative is that it doesn't exists anywhere"? That's not a rhetorical question; I'm wondering. It would be very surprising to me if it didn't. Just from reading around in articles (I have access to full-text historical databases of the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, etc., as well as Lexis-Nexis) a historical evolution of the analogy is shaping up pretty crisply. Here it is, in all its originally synthetic glory: 1) the analogy was invoked occasionally before 1967, usually by either those who wished to shore up South Africa's moral credibility or those who wished to demolish Israel's. 2) After '67 (and especially after the early '70s) it became a more common rhetorical trope, its valence shifting from a criticism of Israel as an "apartheid state" to a criticism of the occupation as constituting a form of aparthied. According to the NYT, during this period the comparison became a "commonplace among Israeli moderates." But it was also employed more cynically among African nations who used it to rope in Arab nations into the struggle against apartheid. This is a very complex time for the analogy, as it appears to have been reinforced by Israel's close economic and military relations with South Africa; these close relations were often invoked by those employing the analogy. The stock Israeli and pro-Israeli responses were a) What hypocrisy. Everyone's doing business with South Africa, some more covertly than others, but as usual, we're getting singled out for it; and b) Half the world is boycotting us and all our neighbors want to destroy us – we aren't kicking our bedfellows out for eating crackers (in so many words). The analogy during this period gets cross-fertilized/cross-contaminated with the "Zionism is Racism" line, so Israeli moderates who invoke it at the time did so with the expected disclaimers. 3) In the late '80s and the lead-up to Oslo, the analogy became a rhetorical commonplace, as I've already indicated by quoting people like Safire using it. Naturally enough. It became a useful trope for those arguing for territorial compromise and/or separation from the vantage-point of realpolitik. 4) After the failure of Oslo and the beginning of the second intifada, the analogy was invoked as a warning (by people like Thomas Friedman) to those who were described as overly complacent about not negotiating with the Palestinians and allowing the settlements to progressively erase the border between Israel and the territories. You've got a major demographic problem in the offing if you sit on your heels, said Friedman and others. Also during this time, with the fall of apartheid and the seemingly miraculous resolution to the South African impasse, people like Adam & Moodley (I can't say this enough – there are many others thinking in this vein) began to look to SA as a positive model for Israel, in terms of how to approach settler-native dichotomies, how to transform a nation without "destroying" it, how to effect "peace and reconciliation", how to marshal an international moral consensus that doesn't demonize anyone or cause a backlash, etc., all the while acknowledging the essential differences between the two conflicts. 5) The peanut farmer arrives on the scene, and is met and tackled in the mud by the celebrity defense attorney, and a pack of major-media nitwits and thugs crowd in and the food fight begins in earnest.
Everything there is sourced/sourceable, but the synthesis is, for the moment, original to me. There are a number of books on Israel and South Africa, and I feel quite confident that some form of this skeleton history, at least stages 1-4, will be found among them.-- G-Dett 23:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It may be helpful to look at proposed new Article Names (Titles) in a systematic manner. This list is categorized according to their usage of the most contested word in the current title: apartheid. Apartheid has two meanings. (1st) The official self-described policy of South Africa. (2nd) Similar or analogous policies in other places.
In subgroup A, the (2nd) meaning of apartheid is used in the phrase "Israeli apartheid" and these titles presuppose or emphasize the claim that Israel has comparable policies. Conversely, the phrase may be merely an epithet. In the subgroup B, the word 'apartheid' is grammatically distanced from 'Israel'. Within subgroup B, 'apartheid' has either an ambiguous meaning (1st or 2nd), or explicitly the 2nd meaning as in "South African apartheid", or implicitly the 2nd thru the metonym of "South Africa." Within subgroup C of candidate titles, 'apartheid' is omitted from the title and article content would be subsumed under a rubric like human rights.
Feel free to add candidates to this list. Given that we may want to add brief explanations of each candidate title, the person who suggested the candidate is listed. Users are welcome to add themselves as a suggester.
Note: The subgroup includes two quite different usages: the phrase as an epithet (see above) and as a point-of-view on how to conceptualize Israeli policies.
Hope people find it useful to look at the range of candidate titles in this manner. Generally, I think that those who voted to Keep in AfDs tend to probably want candidates in subgroup (A), whereas those who voted to Delete probably want candidates in subgroup (C) (or in (A1) purely as an epithet). Where might common ground be found? It's my guess that to gain broad and stable agreement by both sides, we might want to focus on titles drawn from subgroup (B). Such a (B) title might not be anyone's first choice, but something everybody could live with. With agreement on a mutually-affirmed name, even if temporary, people could then work more cooperatively to apply WP policies to the content of the article (e.g., editing, keep, delete, merge, etc.).
You may want to put a concise WP Policy rationale under each title. For instance, the exploratory grounds (G1-2) of neutrality and notability, and possibly self-identification (G3), would justify at least the titles in subgroup (B). Some folks have suggested alternative grounds for subgroup (B) names (e.g., Cerejota). So, feel free to edit this list. (Please keep the subgroups intact.)
Overall, perhaps the list is encouraging insofar as people are showing flexibility in acknowledging the need for a name change and their willingness to accept several alternatives, even if it's not their ideal choice. HG | Talk 03:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Note: Feel free to add candidates onto the list, in the appropriate subsection. Thanks. HG | Talk
Are you really saying that a reader who wants to get to the bottom of what "Israeli apartheid" really means should be forwarded to an article about diplomatic relations between Israel and South Africa? BYT 15:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggested by jossi... Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT (Urthogie, etc) and Cerejota (G-Dett, etc) -- I'd like you all to think about an idea that tries to be responsive to your view about notability, and the notability views of other Users. What if we set up an article structure that allowed both the the reasoned discourse and epithet approaches under one roof. For instance, consider this article structure (but Title and headings are only examples, ok?) --
Please, please note this point -- I'm only saying that we can agree on some possible headings. After the article is renamed, maybe with agreed-upon headings, then it's up to various folks to prove that there are reliable and notable sources within each heading. Otherwise, any given section may be empty and eliminated. We simply give folks a framework, a level playing field, in which to demonstrate that they are right about notability, etc. Got it? So, the first step is to agree on the title and headings.
What does this mean for you, BYT or G-Dett, Cerejota? BYT works on section 3, and you can try to refute notability of other sections. Cerejota does same for section 1. It allows each of you to hopefully agree on a gracious compromise with Users who think they can find notability with other sections. Might you live with this kind of Naming compromise? Thanks for trying to find a solution that might satisfy opposing views, giving you all some stability to work on reliable sources, WP:UNDUE, etc. HG | Talk 15:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Because it's more direct, because it's more accurate (for my money, it's not a debate, which implies structure and procedure; this discussion, as this page amply demonstrates, is messy) and because it's less academic-sounding, and thus more likely to resonate with a reader trying to figure out what all the fuss is about from the Carter flap. BYT 16:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I favour "Israeli apartheid debate" or "Israeli apartheid analogy" but would settle with the slightly POVish "Israeli apartheid controversy". Debate and controversy both concede in the title that the concept that there is an "Israeli apartheid" is contested. Titles compariing Israel with South Africa under apartheid are too restrictive since not all instances in which the "apartheid" term have been used are necessarily strictly analogous with South Africa. Introducing the term "epithet" in the title would "poison the well" by dismissing the analogy out of hand and imply it's illigitimate. Jossi's suggestions of "The apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and "The apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" are possibilities but I don't see why they are preferable to the shorter "Israeli apartheid conflict", "Israeli apartheid debate" or "Israeli apartheid controversy" unless longer titles are seen as somehow better than shorter ones.
I don't like "Israel and apartheid" as the title could be misunderstood as referring to Israel's relations with apartheid-era South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s. "Debate on apartheid and Israel" doesn't convey any additional meaning than "Israeli apartheid debate" ie it's wordier than necessary. Lothar of the Hill People 21:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Props to whoever began this important article. I'm not surprised it's been a repeated target for deletion, given the ongoing presence of a persistent cabal of zionist editors here at the website. I haven't read it this piece in its entirety, but a quick skim and noting the attempt to present both sides -- that's a good thing.
One thing that someone might want to include is the whole business of an analysis of just what a settler colony is (e.g., Rhodesia, South Africa, Israel) and how, particularly on the African continent, European settler colonies have colluded to maintain hegemony over their indigenous populations.
With regard to the tendency of occupying authorities toward increasing land acquisition/usurpation, one might mention the startling precentage (90 percent, I believe) of Israeli settlements that sprawl beyond their authorized boundaries -- and that's not even including the settlements that are illegal to begin with, consigning Palestinians to what are, in effect, bantustans.
Please keep me alerted to any attempts to delete or propagandize this article. I'd definitely like to weigh in. deeceevoice 19:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
An Arbitration case has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop. -- John Nagle 19:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Straw polls are non-binding, and only serve to illustrate state of consensus.
Please vote in order of preference:
Please do not propose new one here, this poll is not intended to be final, and there is a thread for discussion. Look at my vote for how I propose to vote (yes, straw polls ARE votes).
Please don't run yet another meaningless "straw poll". This issue is currently in arbitration. -- John Nagle 00:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
In the brief time that I've been away from this page, User:Jossi has put forward a new proposal for ending our controversy: renaming Allegations of Israeli apartheid as either Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or Apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This proposal has some points in its favour, and is worthy of consideration. I have serious concerns about the ramifications of this change, however, and cannot yet give it my assent.
The problem with the title, "Apartheid [controversy/debate] in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict", is that it could subtly shift the focus of the article -- from the "Israeli apartheid" analogy to one in which allegations of "Israeli apartheid" and allegations of "Palestinian apartheid" are put on an equal footing. I worry that some editors could be tempted to use the new title as a means of highlighting a few scattered literary references to "Palestinian apartheid", and arguing that these deserve equal space with the far more copious literary references to "Israeli apartheid". This would be a serious error.
Rightly or wrongly, the "Israeli apartheid" analogy has been used by many diverse sources; the "Palestinian apartheid" analogy has not ... and it would not be appropriate for us to designate a new title for this article, if the title would for all intents and purposes foster the creation of an Allegations of Palestinian apartheid article, existing in the same space as the current "AoIa". I will make no comment on whether or not Jossi could have envisioned this outcome when making this proposal.
I hope that other contributors will address this concern. CJCurrie 00:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
(out of indent to get out of the corner) See CJ? I also agree with you that Israeli apartheid analogy might be better (it is shorter, for one), but I think Jossi's position on context is a legitimate one, as it would put the article on a firm footing as one of a series of articles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, etc. I think it is the best we can hope for in terms of looking for a good title that gets consensus moving. If we get you on board, I think we can convince people this is a good idea, and have a solution in a short time frame. Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, on all fronts. Are other editors willing to participate here? BYT 20:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I am going to be extremely bold. But I am itching for it. I am changing the title to Apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and then redirecting a bunch of the other proposals. Please do not revert without discussion, and AGF on my actions. I got the boldbug in me! Thanks!-- Cerejota 20:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a far more neutral title, and it is time we compromise on this issue, even if the israel bashers do not wish to. The intents of all sides are quite clear. I would prefer deletion, but this title is at least neutral.-- Sefringle Talk 20:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota -- in your Spartan boldness :) you have perhaps overlooked the fact that after days of butting heads, Jossi and I have found common ground in the proposed title Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Comments? BYT 20:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
OK -- "WORD"! :)
Of the three of us, Jossi, I personally think it makes the most sense for you to make this move, and the other two to stand in front of you while people throw debris. Jossi, shall we have a go at this? BYT 21:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Tarc, I get the feeling many people might appreciate a constructive, collaborative outcome here. BYT 22:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer 'Israeli Apartheid' controversy, but won't howl over either version of your proposal. Andyvphil 22:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I would prefer that, too, (having come up with it) :), but consensus for forward movement now appears to be leaning toward Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. (unsiged, by BrandonYusufToropov)
Are single inverted commas also a (software?) problem? Andyvphil 22:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota -- I applaud your intuition to be bold and your sense of urgency in improving the title. Since a move might be seen as somewhat premature, based on limited input, perhaps it would make sense to try this: Choose 3 good candidates from subgroups B1, B2 and B3 above. (you've got one from B1 so far.) Write up a concise rationale for each. Maybe put in the main headings showing the breadth of topics (applicable to any candidate; such as my headings above, with both scholarly and epithet subsections). Then you can decide whether to do a WP:Straw poll or solicit input some other way. Anyway, Cerejota, it'd great for me to drop in briefly, while on the road, and see such enthusiasm for improving the title. Good luck, HG | Talk 00:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC) (PS forgot to log in. Keeping people in a collaborative conversation may require more patience, since they might be irritated by unilateral action. But I do agree w/Mackan79 that we needn't necessarily wait for ArbCom.]
(I think this is HG) OK, I was about to go supernova bold again, but I think your suggestion makes sense. Thanks! --
Cerejota 00:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Either "Apartheid controversy..." or "Apartheid debate..." is a better title than the current title... which, given my overall opinion of this article, isn't saying much. Obviously I do not think this is a permanent solution. I am just saying that these two titles are better than the current one. G-Dett's suggestions are worse than the current title. 6SJ7 04:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Mackan: I think you are overlooking a glaring issue with the policies around naming: as long as there is notability, and the topic is clear, and no weasel words are used, it is pretty much a political decision of the community. This is not the case with the actual contents of an article, which should always follow RS, V, and NPOV, along with MoS. So your objection would be absolute truth if we had relatively unambiguous naming conventions, but we do not. This might be a systemic issue, and I am hitting this topic at Factory farming, however, to a much larger extent than content, names are indeed a political decision of the community, within certain constrains. So you are objecting the way wikipedia works, which is entirely okay, but belongs in a completely different place in wikipedia. Thanks!-- Cerejota 05:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Has this been suggested as a title? Anyways, this is SO beyond a mess with NO hope of pleasing everybody, grrrr. Good luck! -- Tom 14:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Israeli apartheid analogy is the best option by far, for the simple reason that this is the formulation secondary sources tend to use, whether or not they are sympathetic to the analogy itself.
Even our heroes Adam & Moodley use this formulation:
The most ardent and radical advocate of the apartheid analogy since the 1980s is Uri Davis, although virtually all left critics of Israel use the South Africa comparison in one way or another.
And here's another scholarly source on the subject:
Other writers have used the concept [of Israel as a colonial-settler state] to argue that Israel developed along a similar trajectory to Apartheid South Africa, with the Zionism-Apartheid analogy becoming a highly controversial part of international diplomacy in the 1970s and 1980s.
That last is Israel: Challenges to Identity, Democracy and the State, by Emma Murphy and Clive Jones, Routledge, 2001. Note that this formulation, the "apartheid analogy," is also used by the analogy's most vociferous critics, such as Joel Pollack in "The Trouble With the Apartheid Analogy."
In their endnote for the passage quoted above, Jones and Murphy give a helpful bibliography of those who have either used the analogy or written about it:
Maxime Rodinson, Israel: a Colonial Settler State (1973)
Samih Farsoun, “Settler Colonialism and Herrenvolk Democracy” in Stevens and Elmissiri (eds), Israel and South Africa: The Progression of a Relationship (1977)
Uri Davis, Israel: An Apartheid State (1987)
CAABU, Israel and South Africa: Zionism and Apartheid (1986)
Locke and Steward, Bantustan Gaza (1985)
Stevens, “Israel and South Africa: A Comparative Study in Racism and Settler Colonialism” in Kayyali (ed), Zionism, Imperialism, and Racism (1979)
Jabbour, Settler Colonialism in Southern Africa and the Middle East (1970)
Baruch Kimmerling, Zionism and Territory (1983)
The secondary sources, not only those I've quoted up above but the great preponderance of those I've researched, describe the analogy as an analogy, as a mode of analysis drawing strong historical and political parallels between South Africa and Israel. In doing so they do not prejudge the "realities" so described, and neither need we. I am very receptive to and grateful for the contributions BYT has made to this discussion, but the dichotomy he sets up between analogies and reality – between "elaborate metaphors" on the one hand, and events "happening, on the ground, in three dimensions, in the real world," on the other – is a false one. People devise mental structures such as analogies because they think they correspond in some fundamental way to reality. And when we name these mental structures by their name ("analogies"), we neither endorse them nor cast aspersions on their veracity.-- G-Dett 21:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm honored that you're looking into the discussion model I've suggested. As Tiamut says, though, my proposal isn't quite represented above. Let me try to restate it. First, it is important to do more than mere voting (see straw poll). Let's figure out how to persuade people to accept an option that's not their first choice, otherwise we'll remain at a standoff. That's why we started with WP Policy grounds (G1-3, way above) that explain the need as well as the criteria for changing the title. So, when offering options, please write up the concise WP Policy grounds for each. (It's ok to give alternative grounds.) Second, we don't want people to simply vote against the options -- engage them in conversation, ask them: What Policy grounds would allow them to reject the candidate titles? What alternative name(s) would they suggest?
Here are the types of Titles that I'd suggest asking people to accept, even if it's not their ideal choice (or choose others from each type, see List of candidates, above):
As explained above, such titles form a middle-ground between those who would like:
Since I seriously doubt you'll find long-lasting broad agreement with either A or C-type titles, I see little benefit in polling on these. Encourage everybody to move toward B-types. Nevertheless, you might still appeal to C-type folks by reminding them that a new Title could still eventually be merged. In addition, you might still appeal to some A-types by showing how the retitled article would still deal with the phrase "Israeli apartheid". Do this by giving examples of article headings such as:
Finally, I think the Move should be done only as a Requested Move WP:RM process, which would allow for broader discussion.
I applaud folks for trying so hard to find a common ground that eveyone can live with. Stick with it and be patient, give others a chance to talk through the exploratory reasoning with you. (I'll try to check in again before my next flight or on Friday. My moniker is HG not HC, btw, thanks!) Good luck! HG | Talk 15:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In response to "cards on the table" above:
Therefore, Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a most suitable title to describe this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
<smile> -- mutual pact for steely self-discipline, remember? Anyway, I agree with your conclusion. BYT 16:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Though not much worse than the current name (which I can continue to live with, btw), Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rather long winded and weasely. It's not as if "Israeli apartheid" and "Palestinian apartheid" had equal notability. The phenomenon the article addresses is 'Israeli apartheid' controversy (and, yes, those are scare quotes -- the distancing is appropriate in a title) and that's what it ought to be called. Andyvphil 01:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Taking your second point first, I am not aware of any source that disputes that the analogy is an analogy. Bad analogies are still analogies. Even the sources of ours that are most disparaging about the analogy seem to realize this: hence Joel Pollak, who argues forcefully that this is a "false analogy," still calls it an analogy: "UN Special Rapporteur John Dugard invoked the Israel-apartheid analogy in his report on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories," he writes; he describes how he "asked [Yossi Beilin]] what he thought of the Israel-apartheid comparison"; he puzzles over how in spite of its fallaciousness, "opponents of Israel have persisted in their use of the analogy"; he observes that "Palestinians and especially Israelis come in all colours, but Dugard describes them as different races to make the apartheid analogy work". Another major source of ours who opposes the analogy, Benjamin Pogrund, writes "The analogy is used to legitimize and catalyze boycott initiatives such as those that were instituted against South Africa." Our own article opposes "those who use the analogy" to "those who reject the analogy"; we refers to our subject no less than 15 times as "the analogy," following our sources in this regard, which is exactly what our title should do. Never once does the article call into question – or present a source who calls into question – whether the analogy is an analogy in the first place. So I firmly resist you on this point; your sense of the connotations of the word "analogy" is highly idiosyncratic, or at least not shared or supported by any of our reliable sources, nor indeed by our article in its current form. "Controversy," which appears twice in our article, is a more prejudicial word, and it's also more restrictive. Would the Safire quote I gave above qualify as being about a controversy? Would a future OR strict constructionist be able to insist that the Safire quote doesn't belong in an article about a controversy?
Regarding your first point: yes, of course the Israeli apartheid analogy in all its manifestations has always related in some way to what you're now more broadly calling the "Middle East conflict." That broader formulation is a catch-all covering everything from international diplomacy to the Arab League's boycott to cold-war bi-polar alignments to pan-Arab nationalism to the last half-century of American foreign policy. If you want to title the article Israeli apartheid analogy in the Middle East conflict that would be OK with me, hand-holding and all. But the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is a narrower thing, a struggle that comprises the occupation, the terrorist attacks of the 1970s, the expansion and consolidation of the settlements, the first intifada, Oslo, the creation of Hamas, the second intifada, and so on – in short, a struggle between peoples over land, which has slowly supplanted what used to be called the "Arab-Israeli conflict," which was a wider thing that included wars between states. The "Middle East conflict" is, as I said, still wider.
As you know, I've been researching the scholarship and secondary-source material on the analogy, which incidentally was at its peak in the '70s and '80s. Many sources give its principal context as that of state diplomacy during that period. Still other sources apply the apartheid metaphor to the "second-class citizenship" of Israeli Arabs. Are Israeli Arabs part of "the Israeli-Palestinian conflict"?
Finally, though I absolutely take you at your word when you say it's never occurred to you that Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict might encourage editors to search for references to "Palestinian apartheid" and "balance" the article with them, that does remain a possibility. That is, in fact, exactly what's happening with House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict right now.-- G-Dett 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way, here is the link for the Arbcom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. -- Steve, Sm8900 19:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(bumped up as way more relevant than some of the circular rehash of old
WP:BATTLE stuff --
Cerejota 04:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC))
Based on these discussions, think these are the alternatives from "A","B", and "C" which have been most supported. I add a fourth to HG's list, which is "remain the same/other title".
I suggest we keep a preferential voting, as a first-past-post vote is esentially a POV poll. I will weight the vote in inverse order of preference: first = 4 points, second = 3 points, third = 2 points, fourth = 1.
And of course, this is a vote, but it is totally non-binding. It serves the purpose of gathering opinions of involved editors, and examine the grounds for consensus in an uncluttered environment.
Please follow the example format of my vote (although following my vote wouldn't be bad either ;-). Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
NB: for analysis purposes, votes with format such as 1, X, X, X will be considered to be 1, 2 = 3 = 4 . Alithien 16:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is going to be one of the many Condorcet methods, there should be no problem adding new suggestions. — Ashley Y 05:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
As I stated, this is about these 4 options only, for the purpose of gauging consensus without clutter.
If your own suggestion isn't there, vote 4, this conversation is barely begining and we will get to it eventualy - or your option has already been discarded by many. Lets not be circular.
If an option is "over your dead body", I would ask you to seriously re-consider the productiveness of such a stance, however, I will analyze the votes for X based in comment. For example PalestineRemembered's vote above I will construe as 4,1,2,3. This is because he explicitly comments that merge is out of the question, and hence its his last choice, and the only choice remaining is "2". The reason it is important to vote for all is to numerically show a certain state of opinion. You might not like "2", but if enough people do, then its the time to express your opposition.
If you vote like Ashley Y, then I will move 4 to substitute the option. 4 covers any other option. There will be later polls. Try not to think so first-past-post, and consider this vote has no real consequence, but is intended to clarify something.
The point of making this non-binding is precisely to gather up unclutered opinions based on a framework that has brought some civility to the conversation. I am a bit saddened that a number of editors that have been involved have not voted, but this is their choice. Perhaps they are waiting on ArbCom, which will solve nothing regarding content, in particular because the ArbCom is not about this page, and hence a futile wait. I say we move forward, not in circles. Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
We have enough dead bodies already, don't you think? I do not think another one will make any difference or do any good. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Create an article entitled Israel and apartheid made up of sub-headings and/or links to main articles on Israel-South Africa relations, Israeli apartheid debate and Hafrada, among others. Tiamat 01:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Have people considered Israeli apartheid (phrase)? I believe this was tried at least briefly. Two examples I found are American Empire (phrase) and Democrat Party (phrase). One issue we have here is how Wikipedia will deal with controversial issues as it continues to expand; developing patterns at some point could become useful. Mackan79 15:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Instead of attributing "points" to solution, the best way to analyse such votes of preference is to use Condorcet method, else the method will never be fair. Eg, in voting at 4th place for the solution we know that could challenge ours... Alithien 09:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
WP is not a democracy. At best, if there is a Condorcet winner, we can see if we can then find consensus around it. — Ashley Y 05:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
(with first 17 minds/votes) - don't hesitate to check
From my mind, Cerejota or Condorcet methods lead to the same result because 44 ~ 42.4 ~ 42 > 34.
Aware that "only" 17 people give their mind and maybe this sample is not representative of the community, I think the "pooling" confirms this is a very difficult debate and that
wikipedia:voting is evil.
Alithien 09:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Which contributor will be able to synthetise the different arguments given by all parties concerning our matter in respecting WP:NPOV as if he would edit an article ? :-) Alithien 10:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to modify this :
to this :
Indeed, the principle of writing : "Mr X, who is very bad, ugly and and lier, thinks that blablabla" is typically not neutral. The same way as "Mr Y, this wonderful and unique guy in history, thinks that blablabla" will not be.
Such way of introducing information only tends to discredite it. Reader must be considered "clever enough" to understand by himself what credit he could give to Mr X or Mr Y. That is why I would suggest to limit the qualifications of Mr X or Mr Y to their profession.
Alithien 08:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Rather than the two-state solution, I have the feeling that the material provided states the unilateral withdrawal could create a situation of apartheid... Shouldn't we title this : "unilateral withdrawal ? Alithien 09:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Globally speaking the article has reached the stage where a lot of material has been gathered. A think that, B thinks that, C thinks that, D thinks that, ...
Isn't it mure enough to try to synthetize the different arguments and facts used to explain why Israel would be an apartheid state or could become one and the arguments and facts used to explay why Israel is not or never intended to become one... ?
Alithien 09:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have an idea for all of you. How about we open a whole category on criticisms targeting Israel. After all apartheid is not the only analogy used. Others have compared Israel to the Nazis, to Pol Pot, to vampire bats, to Britain in india, etc, etc. Why not give each of those an article? In other words, at what point do you step in and say, enough insulting analogies, let's just produce articles on simple facts? Otherwise, allowing the apartheid article takes us into exactly that kind of negative territory. --
Steve, Sm8900 14:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be forgetting the issue here is NPOV, not notability. You have your views, I have mine, but an insult is still an insult whether it comes from one person or a million people.-- Sefringle Talk 03:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Verifiability not truth
What is so hard to understand about those three words?--
Cerejota 04:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle... NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable." All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV)... This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors... Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three..."
There is an obvious solution to the matter. Call the article Israeli apartheid. Then write the article itself sensitively and with discretion, as at Nigger. That takes care of the manifest notability of an epithet, as well as the political and historical disputes. And of course there is ample precedent.
The reason people don't want to do that, though, is that such a move would be too openly critical of Israel. And apparently there's some hidden by-law here that no article title can embarrass Israel.
By the way -- this is from today's Jerusalem Post -- and the only quotes are those designating what the speaker actually said, not "scare quotes":
<bolding added> BYT 13:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, I think the reasoning you used to get where you're now sitting should be applied just as eloquently on some other article titles, but that's another discussion.
I can certainly work with the title Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
It's been many, many days now, and this is the best idea anyone has come up with, in my view. Are there other (serious) contenders? If not, shall we act on this? Or is there yet another telephone-book-sized summary of possible semantic category options for everybody to wade through? BYT 14:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Mackan79: If I may ask -- what, exactly, are the problems you foresee with "controversy"? We use it elsewhere on similarly contentious topics. [32] [33] [34] Is there any real-world argument to be made that this subject is not controversial? And is the term's use as an epithet not part of the article you envision? BYT 19:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT, know why? Because all those articles with "controversy" in the title are derivatives of the main article - George W. Bush, Aspartame, Global warming. But there is no main article on Israeli apartheid; there is not even an article on Apartheid. Controversy means theory, but theory of what? Allegations is still worse. You cannot even contradict these by the facts like these already in Wikipedia, for example the facts and policies mentioned in the Israel Defense Forces article, but only by other allegations. It's crazy, at least for me. greg park avenue 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Huh? I have no idea what you're getting at.
Anyway, there's no separate article for Essjay.
What do you think this article, Allegations of Israeli apartheid, should be called? BYT 21:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I use the word 'apartheid' in its literal sense; it means separation, because that is what is going on. -- Jenny Tonge Jerusalem Post "Mackan -- with respect, was Tonge, above, using an analogy? Or did she go to great pains to stress the literal nature of her use of the word 'apartheid'? " - BYT
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) a·part·heid [uh-pahrt-heyt, -hahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. (in the Republic of South Africa) a rigid policy of segregation of the nonwhite population. 2. any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.
She seems to me to using Sense Two, above. Literally. BYT 21:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's not run around in circles any more than we can help. Quoting self, "the appearance of a definition in the OED does not mean that it is proper to use the word as if it were identical to that definition."(see above) Applies to dictionary.com too. And, since G-Dett has supplied the (exactly accurate) Gil Troy quote, let me make the point about Carter too: "Carter has defended his title, by using 'Apartheid' as a synonym for “apartness” and saying the division is economic not racial." This exactly parallels Tonge's disingenuosness. Carter did not look in a thesaurus for a synonym for "apartness" any more than Tonge looked in one for "separation". They both assert literalness but are rightly seen to be implying analogy. Andyvphil 22:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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A newly created article related to this one, Allegations of Chinese apartheid, has been nominated for deletion. Comments are invited on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 07:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I am participant of the discussion about the deletion of the chinese article. There they say, this article was the first article about allegation of apartheid anywhere, which appeared on Wikipedia. I´m no expert of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. I don´t have the knowledge to determine, weather there is apartheid or not. Now I would like to know, why someone choose this name. If there is apartheid, why didn´t you call it Apartheid in Israel or something like that. If there´s no apartheid, why do we need an article about nonsense, anyone told.-- Thw1309 17:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The verifiable material from the recently deleted article Allegations of Chinese apartheid have been merged into Human rights in the People's Republic of China based on the AfD closing statement.
My proposal is to find a suitable article to merge the content of this article, based on the same arguments. It could be merged into one of the articles related to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I am placing similar proposals on all other articles in the "Allegations of XXXX apartheid" series. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of plausible proposals that merit discussion, including Jossi's above. However, it will be hard to find consensus unless folks can agree on the underlying grounds or principles for moving forward. I suggest working off of the core policies of Wikipedia. Here are two draft statements, which reflect what I've learned from various sides of this dispute.
I believe that if consensus forms around these two statements, then we have a sufficient basis for either renaming or merging the article. So, which, if any, of these statements (G1, G2) are approximately acceptable to you? Can you suggest friendly amendments that would make these statements more acceptable to all parties? Thanks very much for hearing me out.
HG |
Talk 11:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Government of Israel is highly sensitive to comparisons to South Africa. Officials bring it up to deny that occupation practices have anything to do with white South African rule. Indeed, there are great differences. What happens here is not apartheid. Palestinians are trying to get out of Israeli society, not into it. But there are chilling similarities. Here, as there, a people suffer humiliation without recourse, without voice or vote. Men and women are at the mercy of 18-year-olds with guns. Law is manipulated to serve the rulers, until justice is eaten away. The press is censored, and the press is blamed. And here, as there, the process corrupts the rulers. Israel being the concerned place it is, the army has actually sent psychologists to its troops in Gaza to help them mentally with the orders to beat people. But the problem lies deeper. It lies in the very fact of occupation. The longer it goes on, the more true will be a comment made to an Israeli friend by Prof. Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins University. "The ultimate revenge of the Palestinians will be to turn you into South Africa."
If the settlers get their way, Israel will de facto or de jure annex the West Bank and Gaza. And if current Palestinian birth rates continue, by around the year 2010 there will be more Palestinians than Jews living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza combined. When that happens, the demand of the college anti-Israel movements will change. They won't bother anymore with divestiture. They will simply demand: "One Man, One Vote"...If you think it is hard to defend Israel on campus today, imagine doing it in 2010, when the colonial settlers have so locked Israel into the territories it can rule them only by apartheid-like policies.
Comparison with Israel has become an insistent theme in South Africa when people there discuss their country's actions. It keeps popping up, so heatedly that it inevitably involves America – as though the United States does and must have the same attitude toward both countries.
I agree with the G1 and G2 statements (though G2 is a little ambiguously worded), and I concur with the responses posted by Tiamut and Cerejota. I am not terribly bothered about titles; my chief concern is that an average Wikipedia user who has heard about the Israel-South Africa analogy can find a detailed, interesting, and thorough article about it. My objection to the word "allegations" in the title has always been that it's the wrong word, not that it's unfair; the average reader (i.e. one not idiomatically conditioned by disputes internal to Wikipedia) would think an article called Allegations of Israeli apartheid detailed formal charges, not contentious descriptions and comparisons.
As I've pointed out directly above as well as in the "proposal" section, some of the best material on the Israel-South Africa analogy – including the Adam/Moodley book – is not centrally concerned with documenting human-rights abuses or with evaluating and comparing state guilt in same, so merging into a new or existing "human-rights" article seems ill-advised. The only thing I'd add to this is that I think we've misconstrued the Adam & Moodley book as somehow sui generis, when in fact it's very much representative of a significant body of similar work. I think the strong web bias of Wikipedia sourcing has played a role in our perceptions here; after all, the entire introductory chapter of Seeking Mandela is available online, so most editors here have become aware of its authors. There are many others, a few of which I've listed in my longer comment in the "Proposals" section above.-- G-Dett 20:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Interim response from HG. I appreciate all your responses. Based on your feedback, let me give you a head up about my current thinking. For those who support the grounds (G1-G2), I'm working on potential next discussion items on this page. Not sure I should float any more trial balloons without more feedback on the process steps (see below). Or maybe I'll try it anyway. Thanks, folks. HG | Talk 13:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The follow proposed statement of principle is drawn from WP Naming conventions. I believe this statement to be reasonable. Still, our exploration of different Article Names, and a Requested Move, is not contingent on acceptance of these grounds. (G1-G2 are sufficient.) HG | Talk 01:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggested question: How, if at all, does the Self-identification Principle (G3) apply to the noun phrase "Israeli apartheid" in our current AoIA Title? Note: The initial comments have been moved from below, or from Talk:Mediation Cabal. HG | Talk 01:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved from Talk:Mediation Cabal --
Moved from below (started by BYT as " Israeli apartheid", thanks!)
Personally, I feel the article should be called simply Israeli apartheid, which currently redirects, and should address usage and the controversy attending. Compare Islamofascism, which explores usage of that controversial term. BYT 17:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Please read this with a charitable eye, as a draft listing. The idea would be to draw upon this list to construct the Article Name and, perhaps, recommended headings (or naming conventions). This listing is not designed, at all, to prejudge the relevance of other applicable Wikipedia policies. Such policies may determine whether the underlying content can justify the need for such headings, e.g., requiring verifiable sources, no undue weight, etc. I apologize if this seems premature; much of this discussed in prose form above, w/Tiamut.
I've arranged this list in the order of terms to replace "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" with significantly more neutral (NPOV) terms. HG | Talk 10:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Replacing "Allegations of"
Replacing "Israeli" and the comparative referent for "apartheid"
Replacing the South African referent for "apartheid"
Comparative terms. (Comparison is implied by the current title.)
Comments and proposed revisions to this list:
I must thank you for your approach, it is refreshing to see some civility for a change. The diffs for my proposal [2] and [3].
1) Policy relevant to titles not resolving POV:
A Wikipedia article must have one definitive name.[5] The general restriction against POV forks applies to article names as well. If a genuine naming controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources. Otherwise, alternative article names should not be used as means of settling POV disputes among Wikipedia contributors. Also disfavored are double or "segmented" article names, in the form of: Flat Earth/Round Earth; or Flat Earth (Round Earth).[6] Even if a synthesis can be found, like Shape of the Earth, or Earth (Debated shapes), it may not be appropriate, especially if it is a novel usage coined specifically to resolve a POV fork.
Which follows with specific guidelines on how to solve controversies vis-a-vis titles:
WP:NCON#How to make a choice among controversial names
Proper nouns
The three key principles are:
*The most common use of a name takes precedence;
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
I think a large part of the conflicts in this and related articles would be solved if people followed policy, as it stands, instead of trying to meatpuppet each side of the POV into submission, tire the community with endless controversy, and/or willfully violate policy to try to get a successful AfD (this has been done all over the place by both sides of the POV)
2) I think "Allegations" is stupid in the title because of WP:WTA, which advices against "Allegation" in titles. It is a violation of policy imposed by consensus, in many case by editors who have voted for AfD based precisely on the title. Yes, the logic here is that circular. Some are trying to get "apartheid" (outside of South Africa) as a word to avoid, however we will cross that bridge when we get to it.
I do not want to sound controversial, but I am experienced enough to know that consensus is whatever keeps admins from pulling wheelies on each other ;) - if an admin can survive de-syoping by doing an action, s/he will do it even if it is not quite consensus. There was an almost-but-not-quite-wheel/move-war-to-which-ArbCom-said-we-really-don't-know-so-lets-give-amnesty-to-all-the-involved as part of the "debate" to rename this article from Israeli apartheid. Thats in a nutshell how the article ended up with the sorry excuse of a policy violation we have as a title.
I hope I have answered all of your questions, and by all means join in and try to help us move things forward, instead of in circles. Thanks! -- Cerejota 06:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed merge tags because no discussion and rationale was given in the target pages, nor has there been any meaningful discussion in this talk page or the centralized discussion.
If the editor wants to re-propose, I suggest the following:
1) Provide a rationale here and allow debate to flow before proposing. Proposing a controversial merge in a controversial article out of the blue is not very civil.
2) If you still want to propose the merger, use one merge-multiple tag in the top, and specify sectioning in the actual discussion. This makes clear the intentions, and is less disruptive. Section merge tags are meant only when a section and not the whole article is meant to be merged to a different page. You were using it incorrectly.
Thanks!-- Cerejota 07:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
There has been no discussion of section merges, and there is no consensus for addition of the (multiple) section merge tags, each of which would need to be discussed individually. BYT 17:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
If you think a section should be merged, could you please start a discussion head about the section that you think should be merged? BYT 17:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
It could be, but I think the content is more appropriate here, and do not support adding section merge tags. Could you please start a new discussion head when you raise one of these issues? BYT 17:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Cancelled. This straw poll was a well-intentioned idea but it's not ready for prime time. It needs more conversation and development. So I've removed the straw poll text, which you can find in this diff if you are interested. I've left up the initial responses from CJCurrie and Jossi. I still think it may be worth pursuing the exploratory conversation(s) above, starting with basic principles with which to evaluate the Article Name and subheadings. Hope this wasn't too distracting. Thanks. HG | Talk 04:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Back to basics. Thanks to all of you (and others) for replying above. In trying to be responsive to your concerns, I would appreciate each of you to response and, maybe agree, on G1-3 above and now three Procedural Principles Toward Consensus (P1-1) about why to explore a small step, a synonymous new name, even if worded more awkwardly. HG | Talk 10:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
In the real world ... encyclopedias chase actual human experience.
For a long time there was not a meaningful, mainstream debate about whether Israel's policies constituted apartheid. Then usage accelerated, positions shifted, and the debate made it into the mainstream. WP is usually on the cutting edge of these kinds of issues, which means we have interesting choices to make.
And here we are again.
Now, the policy on naming reads: "When naming or writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations themselves use."
Yet, at the same time, global political dialogue has polarized, and there are catch-phrases floating about that deserve independent articles.
How to square this circle?
The way we have settled this in the past, if I may be blunt about it, is to focus on mainstream usage and things like whether there is a dictionary entry for a term, and to simply ignore the policy above.
Witness Islamofascism, which is manifestly about Muslims and Islam -- yet no Muslim I've ever met has self-identified as a fascist. There may be Israelis who adamantly label their government's policies as apartheid, but I've never encountered any. Yet lots and lots of editors felt it was important to strike a blow against "censorship" by endorsing, and defending, the Islamofascism article title, and lots of editors in this dispute, as at Islamofascism, are fast-forwarding over the policy cited above, and reject the possibility of appendages like (term) and (epithet) in the article title.
So here's my proposal. If we are willing to apply the policy above even-handedly to all articles that describe "specific people or specific groups," we could ...
Note that I am proposing, in this case, that we move in tandem on both articles simultaneously. It seems likely that other articles might benefit from such an approach in weeks and months to come. BYT 15:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could gain consensus more quickly on this move if we consider "islamofascism" a seperate issue. Let's discuss the merits of renaming this article to BYT's proposed name. I, for one, am willing to join G-Dett in ignoring precedent if it will settle this age old naming dispute.-- Urthogie 20:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
No title with both "Israel" and "apartheid" is acceptable to me at this point. This name was adopted as part of a temporary compromise, but time's up, and I see very little spirit of compromise from the people who think this is a valid article. Lets rename this to something NPOV or just get rid of this travesty of an article. It makes Wikipedia look stupid. 6SJ7 03:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7's position is not new, and he has courage enough to state it. However, I think is wrong to delete/merge reliably sourced, notable, encyclopedic material just because he doesn't like it.
Hyperbolic statements like "It makes Wikipedia look stupid" are also extremely unproductive, some argue that Exploding whale makes wikipedia look stupid, and it is a FA. Unfortunately for him and his stance, the existence of New antisemitism, Pallywood, and the crown-jewel Islamofascism, and other non-neutrally titled, articles in wikipedia argues against his view: wikipedia has no problem with controversially titled articles as long as they are properly sourced, presented neutrally, and are not OR. That said, please see bellow for proposals that do contain Israel and apartheid in the title but are separate enough for the topic be be built up. Thanks!-- Cerejota 05:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a proposal as to what to do with the quote farm issue? My proposal is that we issue only a few prominent examples. Nothing is gained by quoting ad nauseum. For the section on the allegation being used in reference to the territories, the examples could be:
For the section on the allegation being used in relation to Israel itself the examples could be:
This would let the article spend most of its time discussing the allegations, rather than quoting them in list-like form.-- Urthogie 15:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I disagree with the implication that titles should be neutral, as per my policy based explanation. I want to change the title to avoid quotefarm and better article quality, not to satisfy POV-pushers. Besides, "allegation" is a WP:WTA. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Today, the implied racism of the term is so strong that the use of <snip> in most situations is a social taboo. Many American magazines and newspapers will not even print the word in full, instead using n*gg*r, n**ger, n——, or simply "the N-word." -- from the WP article
The problem here is that your are selectively interpreting WP:NPOV. It specifically states that naming should not be used to resolve POV conflicts. Thanks! -- Cerejota 06:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Jossi et alia, for the purposes of a "good NPOV title to calm the spirits around here" I'm wondering if you might consider the following ideas. First, that a minimalist way to achieve an NPOV alternative would be to find a SYNONYMOUS title, which retains the same basic meaning (thereby avoiding the misreadings Ptk-fgs mentioned)? Second, do you think you might be able to convince folks to live with (not their first choice) an NPOV title that might be awkward stylistically, yet can calm the spirits by being synonymous. (Shamelessly self-serving plug: I tried to construct a convincing argument for an NPOV synonym above, leading to principle P3. Could you look at this for a sec? Thanks!) HG | Talk 04:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Israel and apartheid-era South Africa analogies? Debate on Israel and apartheid-era South Africa?-- Cerejota 05:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota writes, above:
I think this is why I now advocate "apartheid-era South Africa". I have always recognized here that "Israeli apartheid" is used as an epithet (in fact it has to do with how this page was first created!). This use comes to dominate this article, including the lead, whereas there is a much more wider body that studies this from a less polemical perspective... what Adam and Moodley call "pragmatic". So perhaps using "apartheid" can lead to confusion about the topic at hand. We do a disservice to our readers if we are not giving this topic its own article. We do not put Nigger under Racial epithets, we have Nigger. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT -- To keep the Talk page cohesive, it's often better to reply to somebody immediately after their comment or in an existing section, like Should titles be neutral?, above. Otherwise, we may get slapped with a Repeating Argument ticket. (Feel free to move this comment with yours, thanks!) Also: Me, my family and friends are deeply hurt ("Offended") by these words and, in order to be civil please don't use the actual N-word. I don't take my epithets straight, thank you. Ok, back to your points:
There is a big difference between Islamofacism that is a political epithet or political classification of unnamed people or organizations in the title of an article, and apartheid as an epithet used against a whole country in the title. The comparison is unfair an asymmetrical. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Per BYT above (and Urthogie further above, or somewhere anyway), I would be happy with Israeli "apartheid" controversy, scare quotes and all. As this is an IAR moment, I am not keen to do the same with Islamofascism. If others want to pursue a change of this sort for Islamofascism, that is their business, but I would urge everyone to abstain from linkage – that is, from making their support for changes to this page contingent on changes to other pages. To pursue linkage or "system-wide NPOV" is to repeat (albeit in lesser form) the WP:POINTishness that got us into this mess in the first place.
While I accept BYT's reasoning that this is more of a controversy than a debate, I would point him to Cerejota's comments above, and mine elsewhere on this page (and HG's talk page), regarding what Cerejota calls the "wider body [of work] that studies this from a less polemical perspective." The subject of this article isn't purely or even primarily a food fight; though given the stoked passions of all of us contributing to this page, and the internet source bias of Wikipedians more generally, we have tended to emphasize the food fight disproportionately. The bombshell reverberations of Carter's book have also brought this food fight to the fore; his being a U.S. president and Nobel laureate, and one whose rhetoric and persona are heavily coded as Christian, and the way he implicitly draws upon these forms of moral authority as he levels the charge of "apartheid" in the very title of a prominent book – all these factors seem to have conspired to create heightened controversy. My analysis of the Carter controversy is open to dispute, of course, but the fact is, comparisons between South Africa and Israel were a commonplace among Israel-watchers on all parts of the political spectrum long before Carter. It would be difficult to imagine a mainstream commentator more pro-Israel, pro-Likud, pro-Sharon, etc., than William Safire, and yet here he is 1985:
...[I]f you enjoy the cognitive dissonance that comes with trying to hold contradictory beliefs at the same time, try this: How can defenders of Israel's right to Judea and Samaria, where Arabs outnumber Jews 10 to 1, call for "one man, one vote" in South Africa, where non-whites outnumber whites four to one? Part of the American agony over policy toward Pretoria is the exposure of our internal inconsistencies...
Safire then goes on to extol the virtues of realism and pragmatism latent in such forms of "cognitive dissonance." No one has ever accused Safire of trading in anti-Israel "epithets" (!) If we're not moths to the hottest flames of rhetoric, and if we resist the pull of recentism, this article can have a larger, more interesting and nuanced subject than we've yet covered.-- G-Dett 15:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Some maybe consider the terms "XXX apartheid" as epithets, but if those terms are here to stay, then I think each term should be properly defined, just to avoid any confusion. I pasted all definitions from the "xxx apartheid" articles into one Apartheid/Temporary and let's see what is missing or what is wrong. For example, in the Brazil article the term is wrongly defined. There are no allegations to existence of this word, everyone in Brazil is using it and no one takes offence, but there is no analogy to South Africa, because such policy doesn't exist and never did. It's just another idiom meaning something else. I didn't change nothing in the texts but replaced "allegations of XXX apartheid draw..." by "XXX apartheid is the allegation which draws...". Feel free to fix whatever you think should be done. Maybe it helps to reach the middle ground. greg park avenue 16:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick comment-- shouldn't both words of the phrase be in quotes? "Israeli apartheid" debate? Or is there something lost by quoting the entire phrase?-- User:Urthogie 19:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
...let me lay it out clearly.
I write this because this is basically because all I see is variations on theme, where what we need is a radical reworking of the purpose, state and title of this article. It must be moved away definitely from its origin as an anti-Israeli rant, it must abandon quotefarm (and the "Desmond Carter" fetish), and it must change into a title that sources verify, and is not in violation of WP:WTA but clearly and without weasel-wording describes what it is about. Thanks! -- Cerejota 23:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil writes;
But the phenomenon addressed by this article is not a debate on Israel and apartheid-era South Africa. The phenomenon addressed by this article is that the word "apartheid" is applied to Israel ("Apartheid Israel") or to its actions and policies ("Apartheid wall", "Israeli apartheid", "guilty of the crime of apartheid", etc.) as if apartheid had a well-defined meaning outside its ZA roots but without any consistency in applying the term to similar (or more similar to historical ZA) situations.
Hear, hear. I would only add what I suspect people have heard enough of, that the analogue between a (dormant) historical phenomenon and a present-tense series of events is, again, eerily reminiscent of what was decided at Islamofascism.
Rightly or wrongly, those of us who pointed out that ACTUAL HISTORICAL fascism (i.e., fusion of corporate and state sectors, heavy nationalism/xenophobia, racism) was wackily different from the Sunnah of the Prophet, were overruled.
The fact that large numbers of people who neither understood or cared about such academic niceties WERE EQUATING the two -- THAT, we were told, was what the article was about, "And yes, if you want, you can quote history and political science scholars who disagree."
I believe it will be up to responsible editors with an interest in responsible presentation of the facts to make sure the content here doesn't get as twisted as the content there has gotten, whatever the naming decision here ends up being. BYT 11:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Here are some proposals:
No quotes would be used. This actually sounds mildly encyclopedic, and would lead the article towards a discussion of the controversy rather than a quotefarm of allegations and multiparagraph quotes on the palestinian struggle that mention the word "apartheid". We could have a simple section called "Examples" which provided the various uses of the analogy, and then lead into an indepth discussion of its use by secondary sources.
I oppose merely using Israeli apartheid analogy as Mackan suggested earlier because this would have an article in which the entire Middle East Conflict was reduced to "apartheid", and then a pro vs con of that POV. The real notability of this article comes from the allegation itself.-- User:Urthogie 20:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
These are the titles I propose:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
As noted above, I'm dubious about "debate." Have people ruled out "Israeli apartheid" controversy or Israeli "apartheid" controversy? 22:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do anything? "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" isn't a great title, but most of the alternatives are worse. -- John Nagle 21:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I am with Andyvphil in wanting a historical narrative. Cerejota, are you quite sure that "the problem with a historical narrative is that it doesn't exists anywhere"? That's not a rhetorical question; I'm wondering. It would be very surprising to me if it didn't. Just from reading around in articles (I have access to full-text historical databases of the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, etc., as well as Lexis-Nexis) a historical evolution of the analogy is shaping up pretty crisply. Here it is, in all its originally synthetic glory: 1) the analogy was invoked occasionally before 1967, usually by either those who wished to shore up South Africa's moral credibility or those who wished to demolish Israel's. 2) After '67 (and especially after the early '70s) it became a more common rhetorical trope, its valence shifting from a criticism of Israel as an "apartheid state" to a criticism of the occupation as constituting a form of aparthied. According to the NYT, during this period the comparison became a "commonplace among Israeli moderates." But it was also employed more cynically among African nations who used it to rope in Arab nations into the struggle against apartheid. This is a very complex time for the analogy, as it appears to have been reinforced by Israel's close economic and military relations with South Africa; these close relations were often invoked by those employing the analogy. The stock Israeli and pro-Israeli responses were a) What hypocrisy. Everyone's doing business with South Africa, some more covertly than others, but as usual, we're getting singled out for it; and b) Half the world is boycotting us and all our neighbors want to destroy us – we aren't kicking our bedfellows out for eating crackers (in so many words). The analogy during this period gets cross-fertilized/cross-contaminated with the "Zionism is Racism" line, so Israeli moderates who invoke it at the time did so with the expected disclaimers. 3) In the late '80s and the lead-up to Oslo, the analogy became a rhetorical commonplace, as I've already indicated by quoting people like Safire using it. Naturally enough. It became a useful trope for those arguing for territorial compromise and/or separation from the vantage-point of realpolitik. 4) After the failure of Oslo and the beginning of the second intifada, the analogy was invoked as a warning (by people like Thomas Friedman) to those who were described as overly complacent about not negotiating with the Palestinians and allowing the settlements to progressively erase the border between Israel and the territories. You've got a major demographic problem in the offing if you sit on your heels, said Friedman and others. Also during this time, with the fall of apartheid and the seemingly miraculous resolution to the South African impasse, people like Adam & Moodley (I can't say this enough – there are many others thinking in this vein) began to look to SA as a positive model for Israel, in terms of how to approach settler-native dichotomies, how to transform a nation without "destroying" it, how to effect "peace and reconciliation", how to marshal an international moral consensus that doesn't demonize anyone or cause a backlash, etc., all the while acknowledging the essential differences between the two conflicts. 5) The peanut farmer arrives on the scene, and is met and tackled in the mud by the celebrity defense attorney, and a pack of major-media nitwits and thugs crowd in and the food fight begins in earnest.
Everything there is sourced/sourceable, but the synthesis is, for the moment, original to me. There are a number of books on Israel and South Africa, and I feel quite confident that some form of this skeleton history, at least stages 1-4, will be found among them.-- G-Dett 23:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It may be helpful to look at proposed new Article Names (Titles) in a systematic manner. This list is categorized according to their usage of the most contested word in the current title: apartheid. Apartheid has two meanings. (1st) The official self-described policy of South Africa. (2nd) Similar or analogous policies in other places.
In subgroup A, the (2nd) meaning of apartheid is used in the phrase "Israeli apartheid" and these titles presuppose or emphasize the claim that Israel has comparable policies. Conversely, the phrase may be merely an epithet. In the subgroup B, the word 'apartheid' is grammatically distanced from 'Israel'. Within subgroup B, 'apartheid' has either an ambiguous meaning (1st or 2nd), or explicitly the 2nd meaning as in "South African apartheid", or implicitly the 2nd thru the metonym of "South Africa." Within subgroup C of candidate titles, 'apartheid' is omitted from the title and article content would be subsumed under a rubric like human rights.
Feel free to add candidates to this list. Given that we may want to add brief explanations of each candidate title, the person who suggested the candidate is listed. Users are welcome to add themselves as a suggester.
Note: The subgroup includes two quite different usages: the phrase as an epithet (see above) and as a point-of-view on how to conceptualize Israeli policies.
Hope people find it useful to look at the range of candidate titles in this manner. Generally, I think that those who voted to Keep in AfDs tend to probably want candidates in subgroup (A), whereas those who voted to Delete probably want candidates in subgroup (C) (or in (A1) purely as an epithet). Where might common ground be found? It's my guess that to gain broad and stable agreement by both sides, we might want to focus on titles drawn from subgroup (B). Such a (B) title might not be anyone's first choice, but something everybody could live with. With agreement on a mutually-affirmed name, even if temporary, people could then work more cooperatively to apply WP policies to the content of the article (e.g., editing, keep, delete, merge, etc.).
You may want to put a concise WP Policy rationale under each title. For instance, the exploratory grounds (G1-2) of neutrality and notability, and possibly self-identification (G3), would justify at least the titles in subgroup (B). Some folks have suggested alternative grounds for subgroup (B) names (e.g., Cerejota). So, feel free to edit this list. (Please keep the subgroups intact.)
Overall, perhaps the list is encouraging insofar as people are showing flexibility in acknowledging the need for a name change and their willingness to accept several alternatives, even if it's not their ideal choice. HG | Talk 03:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Note: Feel free to add candidates onto the list, in the appropriate subsection. Thanks. HG | Talk
Are you really saying that a reader who wants to get to the bottom of what "Israeli apartheid" really means should be forwarded to an article about diplomatic relations between Israel and South Africa? BYT 15:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggested by jossi... Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT (Urthogie, etc) and Cerejota (G-Dett, etc) -- I'd like you all to think about an idea that tries to be responsive to your view about notability, and the notability views of other Users. What if we set up an article structure that allowed both the the reasoned discourse and epithet approaches under one roof. For instance, consider this article structure (but Title and headings are only examples, ok?) --
Please, please note this point -- I'm only saying that we can agree on some possible headings. After the article is renamed, maybe with agreed-upon headings, then it's up to various folks to prove that there are reliable and notable sources within each heading. Otherwise, any given section may be empty and eliminated. We simply give folks a framework, a level playing field, in which to demonstrate that they are right about notability, etc. Got it? So, the first step is to agree on the title and headings.
What does this mean for you, BYT or G-Dett, Cerejota? BYT works on section 3, and you can try to refute notability of other sections. Cerejota does same for section 1. It allows each of you to hopefully agree on a gracious compromise with Users who think they can find notability with other sections. Might you live with this kind of Naming compromise? Thanks for trying to find a solution that might satisfy opposing views, giving you all some stability to work on reliable sources, WP:UNDUE, etc. HG | Talk 15:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Because it's more direct, because it's more accurate (for my money, it's not a debate, which implies structure and procedure; this discussion, as this page amply demonstrates, is messy) and because it's less academic-sounding, and thus more likely to resonate with a reader trying to figure out what all the fuss is about from the Carter flap. BYT 16:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I favour "Israeli apartheid debate" or "Israeli apartheid analogy" but would settle with the slightly POVish "Israeli apartheid controversy". Debate and controversy both concede in the title that the concept that there is an "Israeli apartheid" is contested. Titles compariing Israel with South Africa under apartheid are too restrictive since not all instances in which the "apartheid" term have been used are necessarily strictly analogous with South Africa. Introducing the term "epithet" in the title would "poison the well" by dismissing the analogy out of hand and imply it's illigitimate. Jossi's suggestions of "The apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and "The apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" are possibilities but I don't see why they are preferable to the shorter "Israeli apartheid conflict", "Israeli apartheid debate" or "Israeli apartheid controversy" unless longer titles are seen as somehow better than shorter ones.
I don't like "Israel and apartheid" as the title could be misunderstood as referring to Israel's relations with apartheid-era South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s. "Debate on apartheid and Israel" doesn't convey any additional meaning than "Israeli apartheid debate" ie it's wordier than necessary. Lothar of the Hill People 21:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Props to whoever began this important article. I'm not surprised it's been a repeated target for deletion, given the ongoing presence of a persistent cabal of zionist editors here at the website. I haven't read it this piece in its entirety, but a quick skim and noting the attempt to present both sides -- that's a good thing.
One thing that someone might want to include is the whole business of an analysis of just what a settler colony is (e.g., Rhodesia, South Africa, Israel) and how, particularly on the African continent, European settler colonies have colluded to maintain hegemony over their indigenous populations.
With regard to the tendency of occupying authorities toward increasing land acquisition/usurpation, one might mention the startling precentage (90 percent, I believe) of Israeli settlements that sprawl beyond their authorized boundaries -- and that's not even including the settlements that are illegal to begin with, consigning Palestinians to what are, in effect, bantustans.
Please keep me alerted to any attempts to delete or propagandize this article. I'd definitely like to weigh in. deeceevoice 19:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
An Arbitration case has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop. -- John Nagle 19:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Straw polls are non-binding, and only serve to illustrate state of consensus.
Please vote in order of preference:
Please do not propose new one here, this poll is not intended to be final, and there is a thread for discussion. Look at my vote for how I propose to vote (yes, straw polls ARE votes).
Please don't run yet another meaningless "straw poll". This issue is currently in arbitration. -- John Nagle 00:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
In the brief time that I've been away from this page, User:Jossi has put forward a new proposal for ending our controversy: renaming Allegations of Israeli apartheid as either Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or Apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This proposal has some points in its favour, and is worthy of consideration. I have serious concerns about the ramifications of this change, however, and cannot yet give it my assent.
The problem with the title, "Apartheid [controversy/debate] in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict", is that it could subtly shift the focus of the article -- from the "Israeli apartheid" analogy to one in which allegations of "Israeli apartheid" and allegations of "Palestinian apartheid" are put on an equal footing. I worry that some editors could be tempted to use the new title as a means of highlighting a few scattered literary references to "Palestinian apartheid", and arguing that these deserve equal space with the far more copious literary references to "Israeli apartheid". This would be a serious error.
Rightly or wrongly, the "Israeli apartheid" analogy has been used by many diverse sources; the "Palestinian apartheid" analogy has not ... and it would not be appropriate for us to designate a new title for this article, if the title would for all intents and purposes foster the creation of an Allegations of Palestinian apartheid article, existing in the same space as the current "AoIa". I will make no comment on whether or not Jossi could have envisioned this outcome when making this proposal.
I hope that other contributors will address this concern. CJCurrie 00:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
(out of indent to get out of the corner) See CJ? I also agree with you that Israeli apartheid analogy might be better (it is shorter, for one), but I think Jossi's position on context is a legitimate one, as it would put the article on a firm footing as one of a series of articles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, etc. I think it is the best we can hope for in terms of looking for a good title that gets consensus moving. If we get you on board, I think we can convince people this is a good idea, and have a solution in a short time frame. Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, on all fronts. Are other editors willing to participate here? BYT 20:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I am going to be extremely bold. But I am itching for it. I am changing the title to Apartheid debate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and then redirecting a bunch of the other proposals. Please do not revert without discussion, and AGF on my actions. I got the boldbug in me! Thanks!-- Cerejota 20:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a far more neutral title, and it is time we compromise on this issue, even if the israel bashers do not wish to. The intents of all sides are quite clear. I would prefer deletion, but this title is at least neutral.-- Sefringle Talk 20:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota -- in your Spartan boldness :) you have perhaps overlooked the fact that after days of butting heads, Jossi and I have found common ground in the proposed title Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Comments? BYT 20:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
OK -- "WORD"! :)
Of the three of us, Jossi, I personally think it makes the most sense for you to make this move, and the other two to stand in front of you while people throw debris. Jossi, shall we have a go at this? BYT 21:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Tarc, I get the feeling many people might appreciate a constructive, collaborative outcome here. BYT 22:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer 'Israeli Apartheid' controversy, but won't howl over either version of your proposal. Andyvphil 22:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I would prefer that, too, (having come up with it) :), but consensus for forward movement now appears to be leaning toward Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. (unsiged, by BrandonYusufToropov)
Are single inverted commas also a (software?) problem? Andyvphil 22:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota -- I applaud your intuition to be bold and your sense of urgency in improving the title. Since a move might be seen as somewhat premature, based on limited input, perhaps it would make sense to try this: Choose 3 good candidates from subgroups B1, B2 and B3 above. (you've got one from B1 so far.) Write up a concise rationale for each. Maybe put in the main headings showing the breadth of topics (applicable to any candidate; such as my headings above, with both scholarly and epithet subsections). Then you can decide whether to do a WP:Straw poll or solicit input some other way. Anyway, Cerejota, it'd great for me to drop in briefly, while on the road, and see such enthusiasm for improving the title. Good luck, HG | Talk 00:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC) (PS forgot to log in. Keeping people in a collaborative conversation may require more patience, since they might be irritated by unilateral action. But I do agree w/Mackan79 that we needn't necessarily wait for ArbCom.]
(I think this is HG) OK, I was about to go supernova bold again, but I think your suggestion makes sense. Thanks! --
Cerejota 00:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Either "Apartheid controversy..." or "Apartheid debate..." is a better title than the current title... which, given my overall opinion of this article, isn't saying much. Obviously I do not think this is a permanent solution. I am just saying that these two titles are better than the current one. G-Dett's suggestions are worse than the current title. 6SJ7 04:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Mackan: I think you are overlooking a glaring issue with the policies around naming: as long as there is notability, and the topic is clear, and no weasel words are used, it is pretty much a political decision of the community. This is not the case with the actual contents of an article, which should always follow RS, V, and NPOV, along with MoS. So your objection would be absolute truth if we had relatively unambiguous naming conventions, but we do not. This might be a systemic issue, and I am hitting this topic at Factory farming, however, to a much larger extent than content, names are indeed a political decision of the community, within certain constrains. So you are objecting the way wikipedia works, which is entirely okay, but belongs in a completely different place in wikipedia. Thanks!-- Cerejota 05:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Has this been suggested as a title? Anyways, this is SO beyond a mess with NO hope of pleasing everybody, grrrr. Good luck! -- Tom 14:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Israeli apartheid analogy is the best option by far, for the simple reason that this is the formulation secondary sources tend to use, whether or not they are sympathetic to the analogy itself.
Even our heroes Adam & Moodley use this formulation:
The most ardent and radical advocate of the apartheid analogy since the 1980s is Uri Davis, although virtually all left critics of Israel use the South Africa comparison in one way or another.
And here's another scholarly source on the subject:
Other writers have used the concept [of Israel as a colonial-settler state] to argue that Israel developed along a similar trajectory to Apartheid South Africa, with the Zionism-Apartheid analogy becoming a highly controversial part of international diplomacy in the 1970s and 1980s.
That last is Israel: Challenges to Identity, Democracy and the State, by Emma Murphy and Clive Jones, Routledge, 2001. Note that this formulation, the "apartheid analogy," is also used by the analogy's most vociferous critics, such as Joel Pollack in "The Trouble With the Apartheid Analogy."
In their endnote for the passage quoted above, Jones and Murphy give a helpful bibliography of those who have either used the analogy or written about it:
Maxime Rodinson, Israel: a Colonial Settler State (1973)
Samih Farsoun, “Settler Colonialism and Herrenvolk Democracy” in Stevens and Elmissiri (eds), Israel and South Africa: The Progression of a Relationship (1977)
Uri Davis, Israel: An Apartheid State (1987)
CAABU, Israel and South Africa: Zionism and Apartheid (1986)
Locke and Steward, Bantustan Gaza (1985)
Stevens, “Israel and South Africa: A Comparative Study in Racism and Settler Colonialism” in Kayyali (ed), Zionism, Imperialism, and Racism (1979)
Jabbour, Settler Colonialism in Southern Africa and the Middle East (1970)
Baruch Kimmerling, Zionism and Territory (1983)
The secondary sources, not only those I've quoted up above but the great preponderance of those I've researched, describe the analogy as an analogy, as a mode of analysis drawing strong historical and political parallels between South Africa and Israel. In doing so they do not prejudge the "realities" so described, and neither need we. I am very receptive to and grateful for the contributions BYT has made to this discussion, but the dichotomy he sets up between analogies and reality – between "elaborate metaphors" on the one hand, and events "happening, on the ground, in three dimensions, in the real world," on the other – is a false one. People devise mental structures such as analogies because they think they correspond in some fundamental way to reality. And when we name these mental structures by their name ("analogies"), we neither endorse them nor cast aspersions on their veracity.-- G-Dett 21:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm honored that you're looking into the discussion model I've suggested. As Tiamut says, though, my proposal isn't quite represented above. Let me try to restate it. First, it is important to do more than mere voting (see straw poll). Let's figure out how to persuade people to accept an option that's not their first choice, otherwise we'll remain at a standoff. That's why we started with WP Policy grounds (G1-3, way above) that explain the need as well as the criteria for changing the title. So, when offering options, please write up the concise WP Policy grounds for each. (It's ok to give alternative grounds.) Second, we don't want people to simply vote against the options -- engage them in conversation, ask them: What Policy grounds would allow them to reject the candidate titles? What alternative name(s) would they suggest?
Here are the types of Titles that I'd suggest asking people to accept, even if it's not their ideal choice (or choose others from each type, see List of candidates, above):
As explained above, such titles form a middle-ground between those who would like:
Since I seriously doubt you'll find long-lasting broad agreement with either A or C-type titles, I see little benefit in polling on these. Encourage everybody to move toward B-types. Nevertheless, you might still appeal to C-type folks by reminding them that a new Title could still eventually be merged. In addition, you might still appeal to some A-types by showing how the retitled article would still deal with the phrase "Israeli apartheid". Do this by giving examples of article headings such as:
Finally, I think the Move should be done only as a Requested Move WP:RM process, which would allow for broader discussion.
I applaud folks for trying so hard to find a common ground that eveyone can live with. Stick with it and be patient, give others a chance to talk through the exploratory reasoning with you. (I'll try to check in again before my next flight or on Friday. My moniker is HG not HC, btw, thanks!) Good luck! HG | Talk 15:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In response to "cards on the table" above:
Therefore, Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a most suitable title to describe this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
<smile> -- mutual pact for steely self-discipline, remember? Anyway, I agree with your conclusion. BYT 16:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Though not much worse than the current name (which I can continue to live with, btw), Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rather long winded and weasely. It's not as if "Israeli apartheid" and "Palestinian apartheid" had equal notability. The phenomenon the article addresses is 'Israeli apartheid' controversy (and, yes, those are scare quotes -- the distancing is appropriate in a title) and that's what it ought to be called. Andyvphil 01:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Taking your second point first, I am not aware of any source that disputes that the analogy is an analogy. Bad analogies are still analogies. Even the sources of ours that are most disparaging about the analogy seem to realize this: hence Joel Pollak, who argues forcefully that this is a "false analogy," still calls it an analogy: "UN Special Rapporteur John Dugard invoked the Israel-apartheid analogy in his report on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories," he writes; he describes how he "asked [Yossi Beilin]] what he thought of the Israel-apartheid comparison"; he puzzles over how in spite of its fallaciousness, "opponents of Israel have persisted in their use of the analogy"; he observes that "Palestinians and especially Israelis come in all colours, but Dugard describes them as different races to make the apartheid analogy work". Another major source of ours who opposes the analogy, Benjamin Pogrund, writes "The analogy is used to legitimize and catalyze boycott initiatives such as those that were instituted against South Africa." Our own article opposes "those who use the analogy" to "those who reject the analogy"; we refers to our subject no less than 15 times as "the analogy," following our sources in this regard, which is exactly what our title should do. Never once does the article call into question – or present a source who calls into question – whether the analogy is an analogy in the first place. So I firmly resist you on this point; your sense of the connotations of the word "analogy" is highly idiosyncratic, or at least not shared or supported by any of our reliable sources, nor indeed by our article in its current form. "Controversy," which appears twice in our article, is a more prejudicial word, and it's also more restrictive. Would the Safire quote I gave above qualify as being about a controversy? Would a future OR strict constructionist be able to insist that the Safire quote doesn't belong in an article about a controversy?
Regarding your first point: yes, of course the Israeli apartheid analogy in all its manifestations has always related in some way to what you're now more broadly calling the "Middle East conflict." That broader formulation is a catch-all covering everything from international diplomacy to the Arab League's boycott to cold-war bi-polar alignments to pan-Arab nationalism to the last half-century of American foreign policy. If you want to title the article Israeli apartheid analogy in the Middle East conflict that would be OK with me, hand-holding and all. But the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is a narrower thing, a struggle that comprises the occupation, the terrorist attacks of the 1970s, the expansion and consolidation of the settlements, the first intifada, Oslo, the creation of Hamas, the second intifada, and so on – in short, a struggle between peoples over land, which has slowly supplanted what used to be called the "Arab-Israeli conflict," which was a wider thing that included wars between states. The "Middle East conflict" is, as I said, still wider.
As you know, I've been researching the scholarship and secondary-source material on the analogy, which incidentally was at its peak in the '70s and '80s. Many sources give its principal context as that of state diplomacy during that period. Still other sources apply the apartheid metaphor to the "second-class citizenship" of Israeli Arabs. Are Israeli Arabs part of "the Israeli-Palestinian conflict"?
Finally, though I absolutely take you at your word when you say it's never occurred to you that Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict might encourage editors to search for references to "Palestinian apartheid" and "balance" the article with them, that does remain a possibility. That is, in fact, exactly what's happening with House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict right now.-- G-Dett 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way, here is the link for the Arbcom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. -- Steve, Sm8900 19:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(bumped up as way more relevant than some of the circular rehash of old
WP:BATTLE stuff --
Cerejota 04:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC))
Based on these discussions, think these are the alternatives from "A","B", and "C" which have been most supported. I add a fourth to HG's list, which is "remain the same/other title".
I suggest we keep a preferential voting, as a first-past-post vote is esentially a POV poll. I will weight the vote in inverse order of preference: first = 4 points, second = 3 points, third = 2 points, fourth = 1.
And of course, this is a vote, but it is totally non-binding. It serves the purpose of gathering opinions of involved editors, and examine the grounds for consensus in an uncluttered environment.
Please follow the example format of my vote (although following my vote wouldn't be bad either ;-). Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
NB: for analysis purposes, votes with format such as 1, X, X, X will be considered to be 1, 2 = 3 = 4 . Alithien 16:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is going to be one of the many Condorcet methods, there should be no problem adding new suggestions. — Ashley Y 05:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
As I stated, this is about these 4 options only, for the purpose of gauging consensus without clutter.
If your own suggestion isn't there, vote 4, this conversation is barely begining and we will get to it eventualy - or your option has already been discarded by many. Lets not be circular.
If an option is "over your dead body", I would ask you to seriously re-consider the productiveness of such a stance, however, I will analyze the votes for X based in comment. For example PalestineRemembered's vote above I will construe as 4,1,2,3. This is because he explicitly comments that merge is out of the question, and hence its his last choice, and the only choice remaining is "2". The reason it is important to vote for all is to numerically show a certain state of opinion. You might not like "2", but if enough people do, then its the time to express your opposition.
If you vote like Ashley Y, then I will move 4 to substitute the option. 4 covers any other option. There will be later polls. Try not to think so first-past-post, and consider this vote has no real consequence, but is intended to clarify something.
The point of making this non-binding is precisely to gather up unclutered opinions based on a framework that has brought some civility to the conversation. I am a bit saddened that a number of editors that have been involved have not voted, but this is their choice. Perhaps they are waiting on ArbCom, which will solve nothing regarding content, in particular because the ArbCom is not about this page, and hence a futile wait. I say we move forward, not in circles. Thanks!-- Cerejota 06:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
We have enough dead bodies already, don't you think? I do not think another one will make any difference or do any good. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Create an article entitled Israel and apartheid made up of sub-headings and/or links to main articles on Israel-South Africa relations, Israeli apartheid debate and Hafrada, among others. Tiamat 01:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Have people considered Israeli apartheid (phrase)? I believe this was tried at least briefly. Two examples I found are American Empire (phrase) and Democrat Party (phrase). One issue we have here is how Wikipedia will deal with controversial issues as it continues to expand; developing patterns at some point could become useful. Mackan79 15:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Instead of attributing "points" to solution, the best way to analyse such votes of preference is to use Condorcet method, else the method will never be fair. Eg, in voting at 4th place for the solution we know that could challenge ours... Alithien 09:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
WP is not a democracy. At best, if there is a Condorcet winner, we can see if we can then find consensus around it. — Ashley Y 05:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
(with first 17 minds/votes) - don't hesitate to check
From my mind, Cerejota or Condorcet methods lead to the same result because 44 ~ 42.4 ~ 42 > 34.
Aware that "only" 17 people give their mind and maybe this sample is not representative of the community, I think the "pooling" confirms this is a very difficult debate and that
wikipedia:voting is evil.
Alithien 09:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Which contributor will be able to synthetise the different arguments given by all parties concerning our matter in respecting WP:NPOV as if he would edit an article ? :-) Alithien 10:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to modify this :
to this :
Indeed, the principle of writing : "Mr X, who is very bad, ugly and and lier, thinks that blablabla" is typically not neutral. The same way as "Mr Y, this wonderful and unique guy in history, thinks that blablabla" will not be.
Such way of introducing information only tends to discredite it. Reader must be considered "clever enough" to understand by himself what credit he could give to Mr X or Mr Y. That is why I would suggest to limit the qualifications of Mr X or Mr Y to their profession.
Alithien 08:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Rather than the two-state solution, I have the feeling that the material provided states the unilateral withdrawal could create a situation of apartheid... Shouldn't we title this : "unilateral withdrawal ? Alithien 09:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Globally speaking the article has reached the stage where a lot of material has been gathered. A think that, B thinks that, C thinks that, D thinks that, ...
Isn't it mure enough to try to synthetize the different arguments and facts used to explain why Israel would be an apartheid state or could become one and the arguments and facts used to explay why Israel is not or never intended to become one... ?
Alithien 09:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have an idea for all of you. How about we open a whole category on criticisms targeting Israel. After all apartheid is not the only analogy used. Others have compared Israel to the Nazis, to Pol Pot, to vampire bats, to Britain in india, etc, etc. Why not give each of those an article? In other words, at what point do you step in and say, enough insulting analogies, let's just produce articles on simple facts? Otherwise, allowing the apartheid article takes us into exactly that kind of negative territory. --
Steve, Sm8900 14:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be forgetting the issue here is NPOV, not notability. You have your views, I have mine, but an insult is still an insult whether it comes from one person or a million people.-- Sefringle Talk 03:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Verifiability not truth
What is so hard to understand about those three words?--
Cerejota 04:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle... NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable." All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV)... This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors... Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three..."
There is an obvious solution to the matter. Call the article Israeli apartheid. Then write the article itself sensitively and with discretion, as at Nigger. That takes care of the manifest notability of an epithet, as well as the political and historical disputes. And of course there is ample precedent.
The reason people don't want to do that, though, is that such a move would be too openly critical of Israel. And apparently there's some hidden by-law here that no article title can embarrass Israel.
By the way -- this is from today's Jerusalem Post -- and the only quotes are those designating what the speaker actually said, not "scare quotes":
<bolding added> BYT 13:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, I think the reasoning you used to get where you're now sitting should be applied just as eloquently on some other article titles, but that's another discussion.
I can certainly work with the title Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
It's been many, many days now, and this is the best idea anyone has come up with, in my view. Are there other (serious) contenders? If not, shall we act on this? Or is there yet another telephone-book-sized summary of possible semantic category options for everybody to wade through? BYT 14:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Mackan79: If I may ask -- what, exactly, are the problems you foresee with "controversy"? We use it elsewhere on similarly contentious topics. [32] [33] [34] Is there any real-world argument to be made that this subject is not controversial? And is the term's use as an epithet not part of the article you envision? BYT 19:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
BYT, know why? Because all those articles with "controversy" in the title are derivatives of the main article - George W. Bush, Aspartame, Global warming. But there is no main article on Israeli apartheid; there is not even an article on Apartheid. Controversy means theory, but theory of what? Allegations is still worse. You cannot even contradict these by the facts like these already in Wikipedia, for example the facts and policies mentioned in the Israel Defense Forces article, but only by other allegations. It's crazy, at least for me. greg park avenue 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Huh? I have no idea what you're getting at.
Anyway, there's no separate article for Essjay.
What do you think this article, Allegations of Israeli apartheid, should be called? BYT 21:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I use the word 'apartheid' in its literal sense; it means separation, because that is what is going on. -- Jenny Tonge Jerusalem Post "Mackan -- with respect, was Tonge, above, using an analogy? Or did she go to great pains to stress the literal nature of her use of the word 'apartheid'? " - BYT
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) a·part·heid [uh-pahrt-heyt, -hahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. (in the Republic of South Africa) a rigid policy of segregation of the nonwhite population. 2. any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.
She seems to me to using Sense Two, above. Literally. BYT 21:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's not run around in circles any more than we can help. Quoting self, "the appearance of a definition in the OED does not mean that it is proper to use the word as if it were identical to that definition."(see above) Applies to dictionary.com too. And, since G-Dett has supplied the (exactly accurate) Gil Troy quote, let me make the point about Carter too: "Carter has defended his title, by using 'Apartheid' as a synonym for “apartness” and saying the division is economic not racial." This exactly parallels Tonge's disingenuosness. Carter did not look in a thesaurus for a synonym for "apartness" any more than Tonge looked in one for "separation". They both assert literalness but are rightly seen to be implying analogy. Andyvphil 22:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)