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quick comment on this guy.
Azmi Bishara, in JTA’s words, “abruptly ended a parliamentary career built on denouncing the Jewish state from enemy capitals and then dodging charges of sedition at home. ” He quit from outside the country in protest of allegations for spying for Hezbollah during this summer’s Second Lebanon War.
Oh no, an arab mp spy called israel apartheid! this should be noted, why he resigned, what he stood for, and whatnot.-- Urthogie 22:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Is anything going on here? I'm inclined to go with 6SJ7's suggested compromise, though I haven't been following closely. I think a section on the history would probably be more appropriate, at least as a starting point. Mackan79 15:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The opening summary mentions those individuals who have accused Israel of Apartheid, but it fails to mention Israeli Arabs and South Africans whose statements contradict the accusation or who object to this accusation and find it offensive and/or inaccurate. I am going to start compiling a list of Arab Israelis and South Africans who object to this comparison. I hope others will help to contribute to this list.-- Michael Safyan 19:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, the article does not indicate which of Israel's accusers have ever set foot in Israel or the territories. I think this information should appear given that the accusations rely on an
authority argument, and who has or has not visited the locations in question has significant impact on the authority of the accusers/defenders. --
Michael Safyan 19:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is very badly written, and by looking at its history it seems that people are trying to make a point by moving consensus in un-encyclopedic directions.
Use of extensive quotes is frowned upon, and many of the quotes are redundant. We could certainly simplify and use citations rather than quotes. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and while I do think that these allegations of Israeli apartheid, and the counter-allegations, are notable and worthy of encyclopedic treatment, the article reads more like a debate between the two POVs rather than an encyclopedia entry on these allegations. We need to fix it.-- Cerejota 08:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please do not remove {{ quotefarm}} without discussion.-- Cerejota 00:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I added a new sub-section to the Overview section, "Definition of Apartheid" using the definition established by international law and then put the existing information under another sub-section "Application of the term to Israel". I encourage others to expand and tweak the new sub-section. Having lacked a definition of apartheid at the outset, I thought I would be bold and add one. Tiamut 11:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Andyvphil. Would you mind expanding on your edit summary? (here: [1]) Is there another place you can forsee putting this information? Note that it is from an article discussing the application of term apartheid to Israel and cites the change in the definition of the crime of apartheid per the 2002 Rome statute as one reason to consider the validity of the application of the term. Would you rather expand the definition section? Do you feel a definition section of the term itself is not necessary to this article? Or that it should be included only in relation to how each critic that uses the term defines it? Tiamut 11:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Seeing this edit [2] I am confused. If the UN does not get to define international law who does? Or, more to the point. Since the UN, by definition is an organisation of multiple "nations," does that not mandate that any treaty/law adopted by that organisation is "international law?" If not, on what grounds does it not constitute international law? Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 14:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7 raises that the "controversial" is needed to describe the allegations in the intro.
I beg to differ.
6SJ7 also mentions something about a "rules violating timeline", but doesn't name what rules the timeline violates. I'd be very interested on hearing this argument, as I am not a big fan of timelines in content articles, however, I am not a fan for reasons of personal taste, not because they violate any rules.
-- Cerejota 10:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not entirely happy with my effort, might need some stylistic rework. However, it goes hand-in-hand with the practice of summarizing quotes in encyclopedic language, specially in intros.
I also shows that the criticism of the allegations, as the allegations themselves, are not unidimensional, which helps the case of a better article.-- Cerejota 01:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I am no expert on this topic, however it jumped to me the following incongruity:
"Allegations of apartheid policies inside Israel" section note (with sources):
"The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law,[78] passed by the Knesset on 31 July 2003, forbids married couples comprising an Israeli citizen and a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip from living together in Israel.[9] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate.[79] The law was originally enacted for one year, extended for a six month period on 21 July 2004, and for an additional four month period on 31 January 2005. "On 27 July 2005, the Knesset voted to extend the law until 31 March 2006, with minor amendments."[80] The law was narrowly upheld in May 2006, by the Supreme Court of Israel on a six to five vote. Israel's Chief Justice, Aharon Barak, sided with the minority on the bench, declaring: "This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel."
And then followed by a "Critcism" section, the first line is an un-sourced assertion:
"Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc."
Which of the two is true? Both cannot be true.
Avoid wikilawyering and weasel wording: Yes, the law doesn't explicitly restrict rights of Israeli citizens based on their ethnicity. However, it implicitly restricts their marriage choice, which a sizable simple minority of the Israeli Sumpreme Court agreed was ethnic discrimination.
Being that Wikipedia generally accepts the rule of law, it appears to me the un-sourced assertion that "Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc." is wrong according to law. If we can find a reliable source that asserts the quote, in can go in as a matter of opinion. However it breaks NPOV to have it.
Comments?-- Cerejota 01:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I get it. Its an interesting legal question, and I see why it confused me. Definitely it seems this is germaine to the controversy, and hence pretty much WP:OR to draw compatability between the two statements.
Now, then the question remains "Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc." is an unsourced statement, that is WP:OR. Since surely ther emust be verifiable and reliable sources that state this
I think in this case, sources that might be verifiable and reliable sources by not be for this statement, for lack of neutrality. For example, a declaration by the Israeli parlamient or courts.
If we cannot find a neutral source like this, then we need to put an "According to", as it is obvious there is disagreement on this being a fact, but we would be able to source the statement so it would warrant inclusion. -- Cerejota 22:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Andyvphil reverted changes I made intended to increase article quality and focus. While of course this is subject to debate, in the interest of our common golas I suggest we discuss things befor doing blanket reverts.
I belive a timeline should be of relevant items to the subject matter of the article, not a general overview of the Arab-Israeli conflict, nor of opinions regarding the Allegations. Any other use will lead to a humougous timeline in which we have to include everything that gives context to this or the other overview.
It creates a vicious circle of response-counter-response:
For example, the obvious thread on the Soviet Union's opportunism omits the fact that the Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel. I think all would agree that that is irrelevant to the subject matter. However, it might be peripherially important to mention to use of the Apartheid analogy by the SU, however, putting this on the timeline led to other editors to include completely irrelevant facts about the Soviet Union's treatment of jews.
In order to avoid such vicious circles, I think we must limit the timeline to facts that affect the development of the allegations. Quote of figures do not allow that. The publishing of books, or events in the ground, or laws that are used in the debate are.
Lastly, as part of the same revert user Andyvphil comments on my rewording of an extensive quote on the WP:LEAD. Since I explicitly raised this in talk, and Andyvphildidn't comment, I ask he first share with us his rationale, particulary if he is going to use language such as "mis-guided".-- Cerejota 19:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The timeline is ridiculous and should be removed per Jayjg as well as other comments earlier on this page. The vast majority of the items do not even mention apartheid. I was thinking of removing all of those that don't, but that would include a few items that seem to be there to "balance" some of the ones that do mention apartheid, such as the one about "Zionology." So for the time being, I haven't done anything. The whole thing really ought to be deleted, but I know there are at least 10 fingers resting on the "revert" trigger in case I were to do so. Really, this whole article ought to be scrapped. It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia. 6SJ7 21:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I haven't! Both 6SJ7 and Jayjg are obviously not helpful and quite hostile, however, Jayjg's argument regarding the timeline is solid (6SJ7: I still wait for you to tell me how it break any WP rule!). That timeline is an aberration of WP:OR.-- Cerejota 00:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a ridiculous article. How long would a jewish community last within Syria or Saudi Arabia? Moslem Arabs are permitted to be Israeli citizens and WP has an article claiming its apartheid? This seems an insult to South Africa to compare the treatment of Israeli Arabs to the treatment of black South Africans twenty years ago. 148.65.24.76 02:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I support the creation of an Arab Apartheid article. The real question though is who made the comparision. The closest thing we have to that would be the Allegations of Islamic apartheid article.-- Sefringle 03:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the premise of the question posed above. 148.65.24.76 may misunderstand this article. This article does not "claim" that anything is apartheid. The article exists to provide information about the notable allegations of Israeli apartheid by many notable sources. The creation of a second article is not necessary to balance this article. This article can be fully balanced on its own if the allegations are presented in a straightforward manner, identifying the allegations and noting criticism of the allegations, etc. Organ123 04:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There already is a Saudi Arabian apartheid article, and an Islamic apartheid article so it's unclear what another article specific to one ethnic group would add; especially as apartheid is generally a government policy, not, as you might be suggesting, caused by genetics AFAIK. -- Kendrick7 talk 17:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll put the same question to all here who oppose this article that I put to Armon. Do you have a consistent position on Israel-Palestine-related articles that cover tendentious arguments, theories, etc.? Zleitzen (who, alas, was here only briefly) argued consistently that the material in hot-button articles ought to be merged into low-key, general-issues type articles. That this article should be merged into something along the lines of Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. Presumably, Pallywood would be subsumed by something like Media Manipulation in the Israel-Palestine conflict, etc. That is a position to be respected. My position is roughly the opposite (Do a ctrl-F for "I would have much greater respect for this position..." and you'll find it on this page). When I put the question to Armon, he couldn't or wouldn't answer it. When editors begin to answer that question in earnest and articulate a principled position, we'll have the grounds for a serious discussion. Those who refuse to answer it need to understand that objections amounting to special pleading will be regarded as worthless. Sorry to be so blunt, but waaaay too much collective editorial energy has been squandered responding to objections that don't appear to be built on a foundation of actual editorial principle or even good faith.-- G-Dett 16:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
James Wall of the Christian Century quotes Tony Karon [4] of Time on Jimmy Carter's book: "What Carter is doing is challenging a taboo." And because he is "a well-established voice of peace and reason," he adds, "it's hard to brand him some sort of anti-Semitic Israel basher—although that hasn't restrained hysterics such as Alan Dershowitz [Harvard professor and trial lawyer] and Marty Peretz [New Republic editor] from doing so."
This seems to be the first press mention of "apartheid denial". Should it go in the article? -- John Nagle 06:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that was an inapt selection. Now the president says it doesn't apply, he's not talking about Israel itself, he's talking about the separation on the West Bank, but I do think the word is not one that I would have used. He points out that he doesn't mean it in a racial sense and he couldn't mean it in a racial sense. But I that think the word is sort of poisoned for historical reasons in South Africa, and even though he means it in a different sense, I think it has led to some confusion. [5]
((nb:fixed redlink of "Christian Century". Is this the same James Wall as the one on the MPAA Appeals Board?)) Andyvphil 20:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)))
The timeline is original research, and doesn't contribute to the article quality at all.
This is an article about ideas, not events. These ideas are formed by events, but chronology is irrelevant to these events.
If we can find a reliable and verifiable source or sources that provides and justifies a timeline (or even timelines) relevant to the debate around the topic of this article then we can use that as a basis for a timeline, then I would remove my objection, as it is entirely based upon opposition to original research.-- Cerejota 05:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Bah, Jayjg, I have been on the other end of your grumpy soapboxy golden tongue ;)... However I have watched this page since forever, and after months of edit warring I have come to the conclusion that there are a couple of things wrong that can be solved if someone not emotionally attached to the article intervenes, and the timeline is just the drop in the teacup. On to the meat:
"Specific criticism would be more useful. -- John Nagle"
I will repeat myself:
"This is an article about ideas, not events. These ideas are formed by events, but chronology is irrelevant to these events.
If we can find a reliable and verifiable source or sources that provides and justifies a timeline (or even timelines) relevant to the debate around the topic of this article then we can use that as a basis for a timeline, then I would remove my objection, as it is entirely based upon opposition to original research."
That is indeed a very specific criticism, and one I believe is well reasoned and respectful, you might disagree, however, if your interest is having a quality article on the topic, I suggest you reconsider.
I will further elaborate:
As I told 6SJ7: a timeline doesn't violate any policy.
In fact, you could ignore all rules.
However, wikipedia is not only an encyclopedia, it is an encyclopedia that aims to be built by previously sourced materials. Thats a big difference with other encyclopedias, including Brittanica, that commission articles. I am sure you understand what that implies: we minimize our editing to consensus-drive synthesis of what others wrote, verifiably and in reliable sources.
All of the acceptable chronologies constructed in wikipedia are a result of sources that cite them. They might not cite all of the events in the chronology, but another source will and then we format them according to our WP:MOS and debate amongst us how to make the information user-friendly. This chronology doesn't meet that criteria.
FACT: To date, no sourceable chronology of any kind exists around the topics covered in "Allegations of Israeli apartheid". So we cannot independently construct a chronology. Find a few sources that do, and then we can cook. Otherwise, all you are calling for is more disruption, edit warring, and the contents of the timeline would violate the word and spirit of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.
John Nagle, with all due respect, I think you are making a mistake in assuming my problem is with the contents of the timeline. It is not. My problem is with original research and us going way overboard with synthesis.
That is also why I think this article is {{ quotefarm}}, everybody and their grandmother wants to include all the quotes that "support" their POV, rather than the quotes that help us build an informative article so our readers can make up their minds all by themselves.-- Cerejota 01:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
(reset) I understand that you think that the "timeline" is not OR. Per WP:VERIFY#Burden of evidence: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick7, the events you include in your "chronology" are devoid of any historical context; they attempt not to document allegations of apartheid but rather try to lend credibility to the allegations themselves. If you are going to include such events, you must also include the events that give them true context, or else drop the chronology altogether. -- Leifern 12:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a problem here with POV-pushing that affects this very necessary article and lead to unnecessary edit warring.
The fundamental issue is that a set of editors firmly believes, in one way or the other, that these allegations are true, and the other set, in one way or the other, believes the allegations are false.
However, all of you need to be reminded about a cardinal rule of wikipedia: verifiability, not truth. We are not seeking truth. We are seeking verifiable sources of information.
This POV-war creates two distinct issues:
Those are my two major gripes. I of course have opinions on the subject, but this is not where I will give them. I do however think we owe to our readers and to our fellow editors a quality article.
-- Cerejota 02:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
While I generally try to avoid this article, I couldn't help but make a few changes to the intro today. Saying that those who use the analogy do so merely because of "the separation" between Jews and Arabs is a manifestly inadequate explanation. If it was just separation, there would be little in the way of complaint. The analogy is used not merely because of the physical separation, but because of the disparate rights of Jews and Arabs in these areas and the way in which these rights are enforced. I've made some adjustments to the intro which attempt to address these concerns. Gatoclass 05:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
And so on!
The inclusion as a source for "Jew Watch"'s echoing the allegations, of excerpts of an article by Uzi Ornan, published by Ha'aretz May 17, 1991 as republished by "Jew Watch" are a violation of WP:RS, WP:SOURCE/WP:V, WP:QUOTE and WP:CITE: we should source the original article as the position and comments of Uzi Ornan, not of "Jew Watch". If a WP:RS inform us of "Jew Watch"'s position on this, then we can source that. No primary sources means no primary sources. The other two sources are OK, IMHO, one is an interview, the other is published in a secondary source that is generally viewed as partisan but WP:RS.-- Cerejota 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
_____Please note: this is a continuation of the discussion from Talk:Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid#David_Duke_et_al_____ 15:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
1) David Duke is notable because he has a wikipedia page. The inverse is not necessarily true, but the only true measure about a notability in wikipedia, the one that is undebatable, is having a page that has survived AfD.
All the hundreds (or thousands?) of words arguing he is not notable should be spent over at David Duke's AfD.
What? No AfD? Do one, if you are so confident the guy is not notable...
In fact this "law" of wikipedia is behind the misguided WP:POINT AfDs of this very page. Stop being disingenuous, please.
Of course, as a leading anti-semite, a recognized voice of anti-Jewish hate and intolerance, and as an outspoken representative of the " third position" in the USA, he is also notable as a figure in debates around Israel, Zionism, etc, and hence not only notable, but relevant.
2) JayJG: do not be disingenuous, please. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim one day that David Duke is notable and relevant source for this issue and then claim that James M. Wall isn't. The guy doesn't have wikipedia page, but was speaking in representation of views held by a mainstream, influential, and quite read publication (it is THE voice of mainstream ecumenical Protestantism in the USA).
Yes, David Duke is more famous as a person, but James Wall's opinion is held by far many more people, and was done in a far more notable and reliable medium than Duke's. One cannot confuse the need for no original research, sourcing, verifiability, and reliability with notability.
Michael Jordan is more famous and notable than Benny Morris yet his opinion, if any, on this matter would be at most a footnote, while this article would be absolutely incomplete without Benny Morris being sourced and quoted.
3) As I have mentioned, properly sourced material stays. There is no way in hell anyone can convince me the material is not relevant or needed to be included, if properly sourced.
4) The attempts to lump together the allegations made by Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter, et al, with those made and echoed by David Duke et al is not only illogical, but original research, and as such we need to fully re-phrase and rework the inclusion. These people are not echoing the same allegations as Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter, and their political intent is not the same.
Jimmy Carter or Desmond Tutu do not hate Jews, do not want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth, nor do they think the Protocols of Zion are true and that Jews eat raw child-meat on the Sabbath or the other b.s. David Duke and his knights believe.
To attempt to take advantage of the calculated political move of Nazis -open or covert-, in a WP:POINT-driven attack on article integrity is one of the lowest forms of WP:SOAPBOX an editor can do.
To continue to attempt to word and lump together these disparate opinions is exactly what I meant with "treating people as morons". We aren't, and you can only stare at the abyss so long that the abyss stares back at ya...-- Cerejota 04:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I've boldly refactored; I hope that's OK with all. Cerejota, I can respond point-by-point to your post if you like, but first I think I need to have something clarified. You seem to be treating notability as a fixed quality of this or that figure, whereas the rest of us (including Jay, I think) are evaluating a figure's notability as a function of their relationship to the subject matter, their influence on RS-discussion of the subject, and so on. Is that right?-- G-Dett 15:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the entirety of what David Duke has to say about "Israeli apartheid:
If we don't talk about some of the realities of this conflict... You know, Israel is really an apartheid state in many ways. And Israel is a state... that we wouldn't tolerate actions of the American people. The New York Times is all against... It's all for intermarriage in the United States of America. But the New York Times supports Israel, where a marriage of Jewish person and a non-Jew is illegal, where a Jew who is a member of the Cohanim, which is the elite element of the Jewish tradition - they cannot even marry a Jewish person, a person who is a full-fledged Jew, of the Jewish faith, who has one drop of (non) Jewish blood. I mean, these people... Israel makes the Nazi state look very moderate in terms of its views.
You will notice it's mostly gibberish. He also talks about Jewish neo-cons as "insane people. They are Jewish fanatics, extremists, they are not normal people...The people who are pushing Jewish supremacism, Zionism - they are absolute evil and they are crazy." Tell me, Jay, how is it "completely false" to say that these arguments "diverge significantly" from that of Carter, Tutu, Benvenisti, et al? Are you talking out of your hat again? I would not normally recommend that people actually read lunatic antisemites and racists, but given the assiduity with which you flog them, trying to stuff them into every article you wish to destroy, wouldn't it make sense for you to do so?-- G-Dett 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Gilad Atzmon is a talented saxophonist and goofball narcissist whose supposedly pro-Palestinian rants interest no one but Oliver Kamm; Israel Shamir is a shady antisemitic pseudo-journalist given a wide berth by mainstream pro-Palestinian activists; Michael Neumann is an academic philosopher. None of them are cited or included in this article. Why are you asking me to distinguish them from David Duke? I'll compare and contrast Hannah Arendt and the Cookie Monster if you like – anything to chew the cud with you, Jay – but I fail to see what these odd juxtapositions have to do with the topic at hand. I don't want Duke in the article, I don't want Atzmon in the article, I don't want Shamir in the article. I am open to the cookie monster. I haven't read Neumann. Is he worth including? – Forget it, I'll ask someone who wishes to improve the article rather than wreck it.
As for your reasoning that "Paul Grubrach cites Uri Davis, so their reasoning can't be all that different," let's see what else we can plug into that formula. Norman Finkelstein cites Benny Morris, so their reasoning can't be all that different. Ernst Zundel cites Norman Finkelstein, so their reasoning can't be all that different. Turn your staunch Zionist into a Holocaust denier in two easy steps!
As to the serious part of your question, can I articulate the difference between David Duke's position on "Israeli apartheid" and that of scholars/journalists/pundits/politicians who are considered respectable and who are cited by this article? Yes, sure. Duke has no particular interest in or position on human-rights issues; none whatsoever. He didn't actually oppose South African apartheid, and has never taken up the Palestinian cause or that of any other oppressed people. Rather, he resents and despises and is obsessed with what he describes as Jewish arrogance or "Jewish supremacism." Traditionally, what he and his constituency have meant by this is: 1960s civil-rights-movement ACLU-types, along with highly educated urban cosmopolitan liberals who led the way in everything from integrating American schools to splitting the atom to formulating and consolidating notions of social justice (and "political correctness") to turning American research institutions into the world's best. The children of poor immigrants from Eastern Europe who got into Harvard and in the space of a couple generations transformed the American cultural landscape. Duke has gained what little following he has by tapping into poor white Protestant America's twinned currents of antisemitic resentment: a) resentment that a relatively recent immigrant class has so thoroughly outplayed them in the competitive pursuit of the American dream, and b) an ethno-nationalist resentment that what they see as a traditional American G-d-fearing culture (pure, white, down-home and Christian) has been steadily replaced by what they see as the "Jewish values" of secularism, intellectualism, liberalism, and cosmopolitanism. Duke has since added the neo-cons to his shit-list of "Jewish supremacists," but it's a very recent and superficial addition; foreign policy is interesting to him only as a proxy for his politics of racial and ethnic resentment. As an ethnic nationalist, Duke has an ambivalent attitude toward Zionism; and as a racist and supremacist, he has an ambivalent attitude towards those Israeli policies he describes as apartheid-like. He is not "opposed" to these things in the usual sense of the word. He envies them. He'd like restrictions on intermarriage in America; he'd like restricted communities along the lines of Jewish settlements. What he hates is that as he sees it, Jews get to have their Jewish state of Israel but he can't have his white Christian United States of America (just like blacks get to have their National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, but his National Association for the Advancement of White People is seen as toxic). All of this is clear in the Memri transcript of his appearance on Syrian state TV:
The New York Times is all against... It's all for intermarriage in the United States of America. But the New York Times supports Israel, where a marriage of Jewish person and a non-Jew is illegal, where a Jew who is a member of the Cohanim, which is the elite element of the Jewish tradition - they cannot even marry a Jewish person, a person who is a full-fledged Jew, of the Jewish faith, who has one drop of (non) Jewish blood.
This is what he means by "Jewish supremacism": what Jews get to do but he can't and it's not fair. None of this has anything to do with the Palestinians, a bunch of grubby third-world Muslims he could give a rat's ass about. Nor does it have anything to do with human-rights-based critiques of Israeli policies by Farsakh, Tutu, Adam & Moodley, Carter, et al. It's just garden-variety ethno-nationalist politics of resentment. The human-rights-based critique of Israel may seem to you and others nothing but garden-variety knee-jerk leftist anti-colonialism and third-worldism – but even so, that's a completely different thing.-- G-Dett 17:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I won't reply under the above header, although I appreciate that someone else has weighed in on this. In terms of this article, David Duke et. al. are notable primarily as anti-Semites. In terms of their notability here, it is exclusively in terms of how they are used by critics, and the text should be labeled as such, and the prominence of Duke/Jew Watch/et.al. in the article should reflect that. I do not think that Duke has otherwise played a notable role in the allegations of Israeli apartheid, and I have not seen any convincing arguments or references showing his notability in this context. This puts him only slightly above Michael Jordan. The notability discussion here should be taken in the context of this article, as Cerejota alludes to in item 2). Organ123 05:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll add that I've just seen Cerejota's last edit, which I think is an improvement. Organ123 05:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know what happened to the table of contents for this page? I looked at the coding on top and I do not see anything obvious that would suppress the TOC. And I am not the person to go messing with the coding anyway, since I'd probably make the talk page appear in a different language or something, and communication on this subject is difficult enough as it is. :) 6SJ7 21:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I came here late, maybe this has been adressed before. I just wanted to say (especailly to supporters), that the article is about allegations. Incidents and practices should be included only if they have been specifically referred to as an example of Apartheid by a reliable source. For example:
Does not qualify on it's own. However:
Once such an allegation has been documented, counter arguments to the allegation, if available, can then also be documented.
Quotes from prominent figures regarding apartheid in Israel, which DO NOT cite an example, don't belong here. That applies to both sides.
I say this because I see massive amounts of discussion on the inclusion of a timeline, and little discussion on actual content. I didn't say this to start a long thread about the intentions of various parties, it's just a suggestion from someone who has fought these battles before. Please feel free to delete this if you don't find it relevant. Best regards, -- Uncle Bungle 21:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter, former President of the United States, Camp David Accords negotiator, and Nobel Peace Prize winner and author of the 2006 book entitled Palestine Peace Not Apartheid has stated:
[Israeli options include]...A system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights. This is the policy now being followed. I would say that in many ways the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupying forces is as onerous - and in some cases more onerous - as the treatment of black people in South Africa by the apartheid government"
and:
The six rabbis...and I...discussed the word "apartheid," which I defined as the forced segregation of two peoples living in the same land, with one of them dominating and persecuting the other. I made clear in the book's text and in my response to the rabbis that the system of apartheid in Palestine is not based on racism but the desire of a minority of Israelis for Palestinian land and the resulting suppression of protests that involve violence...my use of "apartheid" does not apply to circumstances within Israel.
Former President of the United States and Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter, noted for his part in the Camp David Accords negotiations, argues in his 2006 book entitled Palestine Peace Not Apartheid that the separation of Israelis and Palestinians, and the dominance of Israel sustained by violence constitutes a policy of Apartheid, and that in many ways the treatment on the part of Israel of the Palestinian population "is as onerous - and in some cases more onerous - as the treatment of black people in South Africa by the apartheid government". [5] [9]
He has further elaborated in interviews that his allegations are limited to the situation in the West Bank and Gaza, and around the Jewish settlements, and not in Israel proper, and do not imply racism on the part of the majority of Jewish Israelis. [10] [8]
Desmond Tutu and David Duke being sides of the same coin is an example of Reductio ad Hitlerum. Please do not confuse matters: extreme right-wing Zionist kooks of the type that murdered Yitzhak Rabin might argue they are the sides of the same coin, but I triple dare you to find an scholarly or news source that joins them together.
That said, please keep in mind that there is a clear difference between WP:OR and the need to make an encyclopedia. WP:OR refers only to the fact that any bit of information in Wikipedia must be notable and come for a reliable and verifiable source. It does not refer to us making false conflagrations.
That is a problem I have pointed out before in this article (to repeat myself): the allegations and counter-allegations are multiple, complex, and include both political polemic and academic research.
This article, thanks to WP:POINT POV pushing, pushes all of them together, regardless of the sourced context they provide. Not only is comparing Desmond Tutu and David Duke Reductio ad Hitlerum, it is in fact WP:OR because it ignores the substantive, sourced differences between the two notable's motivations and even actual positions (ie David Duke's is a polemic geared towards increasing anti-semitic hate, whereas Desmond Tutu's occur in the background of seeking a South African solution to the Palestinian question - and the sources sustain this). This also happens in the counter-allegations: ultra-Zionism is mixed with Post-Zionism and then mixed with non-Zionist critique.
WP:OR nowhere states that we are forbidden from providing context, as long as this context is also sourced. This is also a wiki, and not all sources have to be in the same page: Desmond Tutu and David Duke, to give just two examples, provide ample sourced context to differentiate between their two positions.
Attempts to provide narrow definitions are as bad as those that try to provide wide definitions. A time line is WP:OR because it is impossible to build a sourced timeline of something that is not an event or series of events, and constitutes "novel narrative or historical interpretation". Making a difference between disparate allegations and counter-allegations is not WP:OR because this doesn't constitute a "novel narrative or historical interpretation". It constitutes clear logic that makes a quality article.-- Cerejota 16:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Based on the comments to my raising several things, I think that maybe a lot of the issues might be resolved by refactoring. I suggest we use the Adam and Moodley model, it is both sourced, and while providing some arguments that are POV, I think they construct the best framework from which to view the allegations.
I propose, each with its own "criticism" and "other views" section:
Adam and Moodley are a reliable and verifiable source, so I think using their model is better than the currently rather haphazard way it is organized.
Furthermore, sources indicates that there is a difference made between the situation in the pre-1967 borders and in the Occupied Territories, yet the bulk of literature either talks of Israel as including de facto the Occupied Territories or make no explicit difference between the two, in particular when referring to Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Hence a further section on "Apartheid in West Bank and Gaza" might also work.
Thoughts?
-- Cerejota 04:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
What about renaming the article "Allegations and denials of Israeli apartheid"? The current title begs the question of whether it's a legitimate term. The proposed name reflects a more neutral point of view. Comments? -- John Nagle 21:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Israeli apartheid" is not neutral to deal with the matter of human rights of Palestinians in occupied territories and Arab Israeli in Israel. The only way to deal with that would be Human Rights in Israel and Human Rights in the occupied territories.
The article Israeli apartheid should exist BUT only to point out that this is an expression used by people who claim or think (whether they are right or not) that Israel doesn't respect human rights and the article should immediately refer to the article Human right etc to deal the matter...
This will not make consensus but no matter, this is NPoV. Good luck :-)
Alithien 20:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
other articles in the series:
all are WP:RS to ma'ariv, Israel 2nd largest news paper.
Zeq 09:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
After all the contentious editing, we have a few minor stylistic problems to deal with.
why this: [17] ? Zeq 12:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
We are still waiting for an explnation to this revert Zeq 06:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Alithien 14:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The timeline as a separate article has been removed, per AfD here. There were several irregularities with the AfD:
This raises questions about what to do now in this article regarding a history/chronology of the concept. This article would clearly benefit from a section tracing the historical evolution of the concept. While the AfD discussion was far too tainted and ambiguous to be conclusive regarding the propriety of a timeline on this topic, it stands to reason that if the format of a timeline itself attracts serious good-faith opposition (as well as being a vandal-magnet), then a "History" section following the model of New Antisemitism would be the proper way forward.-- G-Dett 17:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, first of all, I do not see the "vote counting" that you are talking about. The closing admin did not announce a numerical result. In fact under the current "philosophy" of AfD's on Wikipedia, it is not supposed to be regarded as a "vote." The closing admin is supposed to weigh the arguments and see if there is a "consensus" (as that term is defined on Wikipedia, not in the real world.) (This philosophy is expressed by Cerejota in one of his comments on the AfD page, in which he also makes clear what he has made clear on this talk page, which is that the "timeline" is OR regardless of where it is, so he definitely "counts" as a "delete.") Now, whether you or I believe this system is a good idea or whether it really works this way, is another issue. Personally I think a lot of the admins quietly continue to apply the old 70-75 percent threshhold for deletion unless something about the situation jumps out at them and requires some adjustment. Which brings us to the "votes" here, I don't see how it "appears" that the "merges" were counted as "delete." Even if they were counted as "keep", there were still 75 percent for "delete." (And even if you disregard Gatoclass's vote, due to his comments above, it is still 73.6 percent for delete.) Anyway you look at it, there is a large majority who believe that the timeline itself has to go, regardless of whether it is in this article or a separate article. I also think it is clear that those who believe the timeline is "OR" were basing this on the timeline itself, and not on particular items that some may have added it.
As for the need for a history section in this article, I see some history already, though not in its own section. I suppose more dates could be added for some things that lack them now. I don't know that there needs to be a separate "history" section, but even if there is, it should not be allowed to become what the "timeline" was, which basically was a POV fork of the article in a box next to the main article -- and then a POV fork in a separate article. It is probably best if any additional historical references are integrated into the structure of the article, such as it is. However, the history needs to be balanced. Since many of the disputed measures and policies are part of Israel's struggle against Palestinian terrorism, the history of that terrorism is relevant as well. 6SJ7 19:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have already suggest a manner in which to prune the article, which is to fix the quote farm. No one has commented on this suggestion, and I am very tempted to being bold. However, I throw one last call for thoughts on this method.-- Cerejota 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand why the views of Melanie Phillips have been excised, but not, say, the views of Chris McGreal. It seems the article is slowly being stripped of any voices which take issue with the epithet. Jayjg (talk) 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
JayJG: Stand assured I am fully commited to correctly sourcing and balancing the article. Voices that critique the analogy are very important and central to a quality article, and this article would fail in quality if those voices are not given their due.
However, I do ask you that you please refrain from such specific, narrow, point/counterpoint critiques, at least for a few days. Remember to |assume good faith, remain cool, and try to refrain from all the reckless editing you engaged during the timeline's AfD: I know you were a bit out of your element then because of the obvious POV fork, but hope we can get you back to normal :D. I think your contributions have been valuable, and indeed you do have plenty to contribute in terms of sourcing, preventing OR, etc. I would like that we concentrate on principles of structure, rather than the specifics of content. I think our readers are suficiently warned that there are indeed neutrality, original research and factual discrepancies being raised by editors, and will take with a grain of salt the contents of this article, until such day as we are able to realize a quality article.
Now, I am indeed very much interest in your suggestions regarding pruning the article and solving the quotefarm issue, if any. And of course, if you disagree that taking the steps I am proposing as a framework, lets discuss them. But specific point/counterpoints on sources -while there are more important discussions going on- do not help achieve article quality, and only server to throw more fuel into the fire.
G-Dett: please also try to stay on point. This shouldn't be a competition between you and JayJG, and other people are also trying to achieve a quality article. However, I suggest we have a bit more attention span and do more than just have dry, snarky wit for each other.-- Cerejota 23:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think people need to re-read what I have written around the quotefarm issue. The problem I see is not one of balance, or neutrality, or anything like that. The problem is one of style. The article reads more like a collection of quotes than an encyclopedic entry, and furthermore, it seems editors of both POVs are happy with this.
Suggestions such as extensive quotes (arguing it gains NPOV or sustain NOR) or one-quote-per-person (to limit size), miss the point entirely.
Thousands upon thousands of articles in wikipedia are correctly sourced, contain no original research, are verifiably notable, and contain little or no quotes. There seems to be a confusion between sourcing and quoting.
I have suggested, twice what our own rules and conventions say we do: that we adopt an encyclopedic voice for our sourced material. Once I did with a generic example, the second one with an actual one. No one commented on them.
However, they remain the only way to move forward.
The rest is trying to argue that somehow this article is different from others in wikipedia and deserves some sort of special treatment, which it doesn't.-- Cerejota 23:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The template suggests that extensive quotes be moved to a page with the same name over at wikiquote. I think that is a great idea! So I have started q:Allegations of Israeli apartheid, and put the first quotes in each of the POVs as a start. Please go there, and add quotes, and don't forget to share the sources with this article. I think we can move things forward. Thanks!-- Cerejota 02:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I will start a subpage here at talk, which initially will contain a copy of the page as it stands now, so I can re-factor it according to my suggestion. The page is Talk:Allegations of Israeli apartheid/ProposedChange While anyone can feel free to edit, I ask editors please refrain from doing so initially until I have implemented all my suggestions. Then we can discuss them and edit that page until it reaches a level of consensus. The idea is to generate a radically re-factored article that addresses mostly style, but also addresses any lingering NPOV and OR issues, as per the {{ TotallyDisputed}}. That way we can keep discussion structured, and not get into edit wars. I feel the page as it stands is to garbled to warrant any sustantive editing without violating WP:3RR, so in this fashion we can develop consensus and implement without worries. We can then delete it once implemented
Thanks!-- Cerejota 02:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Cerejota,
Thank you for taking care of this very difficult matter !
I agree with all the comments you wrote here above (about title, the right to use the expression and good reasons to have an article titled Israeli apartheid in wp, etc).
But I am still not convinced.
Thinking about it yesterday, I identified 3 main reasons to my reluctance (and I think, reading you, you may share them too) :
1. You say it is an expression perfectly sourced but the article doesn't focus only on that expression and the social/political repercussion of this; instead of talking about the words : "Israeli apartheid" (who say that, who doens't, why, how, when, ...), doesn't it talk too much about the "facts" (or what some consider examples) of (alledged) Israeli apartheid.
2. With your reasonning, don't you think we could create : "
Israel, the only democracy of Middle-East and starting quoting all scholars and notorious people who use the words democracy and Israel in the same sentence ?
3. I think we should only accept information coming from secondary sources who talk about these words and refuse primary sources of "israeli apartheid". The same facts are named "Israeli apartheid" and "Israeli right to autodefense" by different people. But of course, they use theses words for other reasons... The facts should be analyse in another article (eg Palestinian civilians under Israeli rule)
Alithien 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not fully satisfied with this suggestion but I throw this to start brainstorming.
We could have 2 articles :
Article 1 would not be a redirect. Rather it would states :
What do you think about that ?
Could we get a consensus around that among all those who quarrelled here ?
Alithien 23:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The main arbitration page only describes a very small fraction of what occurred at the beginning of this article. (There is more on the workshop and evidence pages of that arbitration, but even that does not give a very complete picture.) The arbitration request was filed by John Nagle (I guess he forgot to mention that) and it was mostly for the purpose of trying to get three administrators sanctioned -- and by a remarkable coincidence, these three administrators were all on the same "side" of the dispute regarding this article, which was not the same side as John Nagle. He also threw me in there as a party, and one of his cronies wrote an "evidence" section against me that was so ridiculous that nobody could even bring themselves to propose a remedy against me. If anyone wants to try to get the full picture of who and what started the "mess", they would have to read the archived talk pages for this article, but it's a lot of reading. I think they would also have to read some of the noticeboard pages and other random Wikipedia-space pages about "Homey", whose actual user name at the time we apparently aren't allowed to use anymore. Homey is the one who started this article and edit-warred to keep it as an anti-Israel attack page, which was the whole point of creating the article in the first place. He also pulled such shenanigans as creating a sock puppet who nominated the article for deletion only a few days after it was started, knowing that there would be enough votes against deletion based solely on the newness of the article, that it would be kept despite the fact that there was a clear majority for deletion. One has to wonder what the outcome would have been if people had known that it was the creator of the article secretly nominating it for deletion. So if people really want to know how this article became such a "mess", it would help to look at the bigger picture. 6SJ7 14:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
is the drive for a one state solution: [18] Zeq 06:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil: Unfortunately for you, use of the analogy (or criticism of it) is normative in academic circles concerned with Israel and Palestine, and quite normative outside of academia. I suggest you get out of your soapbox in Wikipedia, and since you oppose the use so vehemently, perhaps engage in procuring reliably sourced material that supports your view. Hey, I hate anti-semitism, but debate around it is normative too.-- Cerejota 16:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil:
Have you read Adam and Moodley? If so, please re-read again. The caveat for "ANC Communism" are their own, not an invention of wikipedia: the "ANC Communism" is clearly not stated as fact in the source text. One thing is the need to re-phrase the quotefarm this article is, another is to completely change the meaning of a source.-- Cerejota 03:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you are misconstruing A&M: they are clearly not voicing "ANC-led communism" as their own voice, but that of the "apartheid ideologues". Do you understand the difference?
These are the type of misconstructions that border on WP:POINT disruption: since the only way out of your misquoting is to force users to turn the article into a "quotefarm" - a bad form - they disrupt article quality.
Now, I understand your point but I think you are approaching it in a wrong manner by ignoring the points raised by me and others: that the source doesn't state as fact that the ANC is communist, but the article as reverted by you does. The quotes are not weasel words, however, you are completely changing the meaning of their statement by not providing the quotes. This is standard copy-editing practice, not weasel-wording. However, your crime, completely misrepresenting and de-contextualizing a quote, is a much more serious one.-- Cerejota 12:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil does raise an interesting issue, which is that the use of the word "apartheid" as an analogy is questioned by highly notable sources such the United States government. This is true. However, this is beyond the scope of this article. Allegations of apartheid - to which this article points to - is the correct article to include content questioning the analogy from the ground up.-- Cerejota 12:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Template:Allegations of apartheid has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Terraxos 03:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am removing again the links put back by an editor, please discuss before removing.-- Cerejota 12:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The Crime of apartheid, Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority, and Allegations of apartheid links are clearly relevant. The analogy of apartheid needs to be linked, as the article is accusing a country of apartheid. The Palestinian Human rights link is also relevant as the article addresses Palestinian Human rights.-- Sefringle Talk 04:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I read this quote from carter:
"It's not Israel. The book has nothing to do with what's going on inside Israel which is a wonderful democracy, you know, where everyone has guaranteed equal rights and where, under the law, Arabs and Jews who are Israelis have the same privileges about Israel. That's been most of the controversy because people assume it's about Israel. It's not."
And yet this man is being included in an article on allegations of israeli apartheid.
Perhaps we should split parts of this article to allegations of apartheid in the west bank, since its clearly mislabeling carters quotes to include him here. "It's not Israel." That says it pretty concisely.-- Urthogie 15:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not a POV thing so much as an accuracy thing. Even if you are anti-Israel, can you see how it might confuse people to hear so called "Israeli apartheid" isn't in Israel?-- Urthogie 14:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The "quote farm" problem is still outstanding. I'd suggest, first, that the date of the quote be added to each quote. It matters whether someone said something on this subject in 1973 or 2003.
I'm inclined to get rid of the quote from StandWithUs unless the name of an individual can be associated with the quote. There are questions about who's behind that organization, and the organization doesn't disclose much information about itself, so it lacks something as a reliable source.
What's the source for the first Benny Morris quote? Is it from the same source as the second one? They read as if written far apart in time. The first one sounds pre-intifada; the second one is clearly post-intifada. Dates would help here. -- John Nagle 20:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
"Those who use the analogy claim that Palestinians are not afforded the rights and privileges of Israelis and that Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories amounts to oppression. They may point to the physical separation between the two groups, or claim that Arab citizens of Israel receive second-class status."
What the hell? I know that Palestinians are not afforded the same rights and privelleges as Israelis-- they're not Israelis. I also know that Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories amounts to oppression (which is not to say that the Palestinians don't oppress the Israelis as well). However, I also am not such a dumbass to think that poor treatment of people means they're under apartheid.
What this lead does is it makes the mundane, obvious observation that Israelis oppress Palestinians the crux of the argument. NO! The argument is not over whether oppression or disparate treatment occurs, but whether this constitutes "apartheid." The entire debate has been reframed to make it seem like arguing for "apartheid" is arguing for the least bit of disparate treatment and oppression. I've marked the page as totally disputed.-- Urthogie 16:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I have added this article to the "Types of segregation" navbox, to provide further context.-- Victor falk 18:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The bias is in the title. The title puts one side in a debate on the real topic (the amount and nature of racism in the country in question) on the back foot before the first word of text, and the neutrality of the article cannot be recovered after that catastrophic start. This article sets out to group together a group of slurs under the pretence that together they make an encyclopedic topic. This is no more the case than for "Allegations that French people smell". Or imagine other series of article built around usage of slurs in the media: Allegations that Tony Blair is a liar, Allegations that Angela Merkel is a liar, Allegations that Bill Clinton is a liar, or Allegations that Paris Hilton is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that Lindsay Lohan is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that .... is a talentless bimbo. All of those could be sourced, and the fact that something is sourced does not necessarily make it neutral or a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia. The quoting of sources on any article does not confirm that it complies with Wikipedia:Neutrality to the slightest degree; any biased essay can be fully sourced. No rephrasing or sourcing can make this article anything more than a politically motivated attack page. Wikipedia is not a place for debate or for arguing the toss. The presence of these articles disgraces Wikipedia. Dominictimms 13:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the term "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" equals X, whatever X my be, therfore I changed the lead from "draw" to "is". -- Tom 23:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
We should rename the article to "Israeli apartheid analogy".
Thus "Israeli apartheid analogy" is more neutral, better reflects the article is it currently is, and most importantly better reflects the sources. — Ashley Y 01:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Israeli apartheid analogy would be an improvement, but I would strongly prefer something like "Israeli apartheid" controversy. Deciding whether this or that instance of the word's use constitutes an analogy, an allegation, or an epithet is usually a matter of original research, almost always immaterial.-- G-Dett 18:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is another reason for switching to "apartheid analogy". Roger Waters, the co-founder of the band Pink Floyd. See also [20] and [21]. He protested apartheid in South Africa and he did the same in Israel. That's the analogy. He didn't do that in France or Brazil, just there. He even did that against the will of Palestinians themselves [22], which makes him pretty neutral. But he's missing from this article. I'd recommend to add new section "Apartheid anology in music", while cutting off all that lenthy political quotes or reduce it to one sentence. Who needs that many statements anyway? It maybe violates the copyright too? What else is missing? The principal reference to Jimmi Carter's book is missing. There are only references to comments about the book. There's also an error in introduction. The analogy applies to Gaza and West Bank ONLY, not to Israel itself, or at least it's not documented. greg park avenue 18:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It might warrant a mention, but this is stretching notability: Roger Waters is notable for making music, not for the depth of his sociological studies.-- Cerejota 22:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
There are many more. Bob Marley while performing live at the Roxy in 1976 [23] put Israel and South Africa into one bag, adding also Macedonia, Tanzanya, Angola and some more but nothing on the current list of the "allegations of apartheid" in Wikipedia. Harry Belafonte. Nick Nolte and Sidney Poitier in the movies. No one pointed it out, that these both countries were the only ones which were for prolonged period of time under cultural embargo, enforced by the artists themselves. No one pointed it out in this article, that in apartheid era these countries were so close like Switzerland and Liechtenstein is. An Israeli citizen could travel freely to South Africa without visa or paying any customs duties, to work there, to live there, etc. It shows how similar these both political/economical systems were. If this is not an analogy, than what is? greg park avenue 12:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
One more comment and here we go. Bob Marley was completely free of bias concerning Judaism, see his lyrics in Exodus, then you'll see that he was inspired and probably even enchanted by Jewish tradition/religion. Yet in 1976 he included Israel on his apartheid list. But one year later in Jimmy Carter era when the peace talks were under way, he stroke it out. The song's "War/No more trouble" lyrics, performed in 1977 during the concert "Live at the Rainbow" by Marley and the Wailers (available on DVD), does not spell "Israel" any more. It's like giving Israelis the credit. And that's what makes Bob Marley a reliable source of reference which should be included in this article. If even he compared Israel to South Africa, then there must be an analogy. And I wouldn't underestimate all those magnificent men with guitars in preference to scholars. Nixon once did that and lost. Please, mention Bob Marley in this article too, or I will. greg park avenue 17:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - Ashley Y has correctly identified a problem here, but it lies in the wording of the the lead - and/or in the definition of "apartheid" we're using. Apartheid South-Africa style was official labeling of peoples, giving them different ID cards etc, with the apparently benign intention that they should look to their own communities for support, justice, education etc. The problem we have is that some people are using the word for all kinds of other discriminations, none of which are as institutionalised as "apartheid" was intended to be. The solution is to use the word "apartheid" according to the Afrikans meaning, in which case it may only apply to one currently existing nation on earth. PalestineRemembered 19:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, ignore the last remark in the comment above, I mean the one in the nickname. The same downstairs, which I find even more offensive, since it's addressed to the user who openly supports Palestinian course (right to return). greg park avenue 15:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Thought I would share this paper by Ran Greenstein from the Sociology Department at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. This copy notes that it was to be published in November 2006 in the Mishmat Umimpal ("Law and Government") journal of the Faculty of Law at Haifa University. Entitled Citizenship and political integration: Can we draw lessons from the rise and demise of apartheid in South Africa? it explores similarities and differences between Israeli and South African legislation and court outcomes and concludes that the differences between the two historical experiences bode badly for a South-African type resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Yet another example of the scholarly discussion surrounding the issue. Tiamat 21:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
quick comment on this guy.
Azmi Bishara, in JTA’s words, “abruptly ended a parliamentary career built on denouncing the Jewish state from enemy capitals and then dodging charges of sedition at home. ” He quit from outside the country in protest of allegations for spying for Hezbollah during this summer’s Second Lebanon War.
Oh no, an arab mp spy called israel apartheid! this should be noted, why he resigned, what he stood for, and whatnot.-- Urthogie 22:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Is anything going on here? I'm inclined to go with 6SJ7's suggested compromise, though I haven't been following closely. I think a section on the history would probably be more appropriate, at least as a starting point. Mackan79 15:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The opening summary mentions those individuals who have accused Israel of Apartheid, but it fails to mention Israeli Arabs and South Africans whose statements contradict the accusation or who object to this accusation and find it offensive and/or inaccurate. I am going to start compiling a list of Arab Israelis and South Africans who object to this comparison. I hope others will help to contribute to this list.-- Michael Safyan 19:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, the article does not indicate which of Israel's accusers have ever set foot in Israel or the territories. I think this information should appear given that the accusations rely on an
authority argument, and who has or has not visited the locations in question has significant impact on the authority of the accusers/defenders. --
Michael Safyan 19:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is very badly written, and by looking at its history it seems that people are trying to make a point by moving consensus in un-encyclopedic directions.
Use of extensive quotes is frowned upon, and many of the quotes are redundant. We could certainly simplify and use citations rather than quotes. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and while I do think that these allegations of Israeli apartheid, and the counter-allegations, are notable and worthy of encyclopedic treatment, the article reads more like a debate between the two POVs rather than an encyclopedia entry on these allegations. We need to fix it.-- Cerejota 08:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please do not remove {{ quotefarm}} without discussion.-- Cerejota 00:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I added a new sub-section to the Overview section, "Definition of Apartheid" using the definition established by international law and then put the existing information under another sub-section "Application of the term to Israel". I encourage others to expand and tweak the new sub-section. Having lacked a definition of apartheid at the outset, I thought I would be bold and add one. Tiamut 11:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Andyvphil. Would you mind expanding on your edit summary? (here: [1]) Is there another place you can forsee putting this information? Note that it is from an article discussing the application of term apartheid to Israel and cites the change in the definition of the crime of apartheid per the 2002 Rome statute as one reason to consider the validity of the application of the term. Would you rather expand the definition section? Do you feel a definition section of the term itself is not necessary to this article? Or that it should be included only in relation to how each critic that uses the term defines it? Tiamut 11:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Seeing this edit [2] I am confused. If the UN does not get to define international law who does? Or, more to the point. Since the UN, by definition is an organisation of multiple "nations," does that not mandate that any treaty/law adopted by that organisation is "international law?" If not, on what grounds does it not constitute international law? Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 14:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7 raises that the "controversial" is needed to describe the allegations in the intro.
I beg to differ.
6SJ7 also mentions something about a "rules violating timeline", but doesn't name what rules the timeline violates. I'd be very interested on hearing this argument, as I am not a big fan of timelines in content articles, however, I am not a fan for reasons of personal taste, not because they violate any rules.
-- Cerejota 10:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not entirely happy with my effort, might need some stylistic rework. However, it goes hand-in-hand with the practice of summarizing quotes in encyclopedic language, specially in intros.
I also shows that the criticism of the allegations, as the allegations themselves, are not unidimensional, which helps the case of a better article.-- Cerejota 01:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I am no expert on this topic, however it jumped to me the following incongruity:
"Allegations of apartheid policies inside Israel" section note (with sources):
"The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law,[78] passed by the Knesset on 31 July 2003, forbids married couples comprising an Israeli citizen and a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip from living together in Israel.[9] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate.[79] The law was originally enacted for one year, extended for a six month period on 21 July 2004, and for an additional four month period on 31 January 2005. "On 27 July 2005, the Knesset voted to extend the law until 31 March 2006, with minor amendments."[80] The law was narrowly upheld in May 2006, by the Supreme Court of Israel on a six to five vote. Israel's Chief Justice, Aharon Barak, sided with the minority on the bench, declaring: "This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel."
And then followed by a "Critcism" section, the first line is an un-sourced assertion:
"Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc."
Which of the two is true? Both cannot be true.
Avoid wikilawyering and weasel wording: Yes, the law doesn't explicitly restrict rights of Israeli citizens based on their ethnicity. However, it implicitly restricts their marriage choice, which a sizable simple minority of the Israeli Sumpreme Court agreed was ethnic discrimination.
Being that Wikipedia generally accepts the rule of law, it appears to me the un-sourced assertion that "Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc." is wrong according to law. If we can find a reliable source that asserts the quote, in can go in as a matter of opinion. However it breaks NPOV to have it.
Comments?-- Cerejota 01:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I get it. Its an interesting legal question, and I see why it confused me. Definitely it seems this is germaine to the controversy, and hence pretty much WP:OR to draw compatability between the two statements.
Now, then the question remains "Israeli law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity.[citation needed] Israeli Arabs have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether they are Jews, Christians, Druze, etc." is an unsourced statement, that is WP:OR. Since surely ther emust be verifiable and reliable sources that state this
I think in this case, sources that might be verifiable and reliable sources by not be for this statement, for lack of neutrality. For example, a declaration by the Israeli parlamient or courts.
If we cannot find a neutral source like this, then we need to put an "According to", as it is obvious there is disagreement on this being a fact, but we would be able to source the statement so it would warrant inclusion. -- Cerejota 22:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Andyvphil reverted changes I made intended to increase article quality and focus. While of course this is subject to debate, in the interest of our common golas I suggest we discuss things befor doing blanket reverts.
I belive a timeline should be of relevant items to the subject matter of the article, not a general overview of the Arab-Israeli conflict, nor of opinions regarding the Allegations. Any other use will lead to a humougous timeline in which we have to include everything that gives context to this or the other overview.
It creates a vicious circle of response-counter-response:
For example, the obvious thread on the Soviet Union's opportunism omits the fact that the Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel. I think all would agree that that is irrelevant to the subject matter. However, it might be peripherially important to mention to use of the Apartheid analogy by the SU, however, putting this on the timeline led to other editors to include completely irrelevant facts about the Soviet Union's treatment of jews.
In order to avoid such vicious circles, I think we must limit the timeline to facts that affect the development of the allegations. Quote of figures do not allow that. The publishing of books, or events in the ground, or laws that are used in the debate are.
Lastly, as part of the same revert user Andyvphil comments on my rewording of an extensive quote on the WP:LEAD. Since I explicitly raised this in talk, and Andyvphildidn't comment, I ask he first share with us his rationale, particulary if he is going to use language such as "mis-guided".-- Cerejota 19:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The timeline is ridiculous and should be removed per Jayjg as well as other comments earlier on this page. The vast majority of the items do not even mention apartheid. I was thinking of removing all of those that don't, but that would include a few items that seem to be there to "balance" some of the ones that do mention apartheid, such as the one about "Zionology." So for the time being, I haven't done anything. The whole thing really ought to be deleted, but I know there are at least 10 fingers resting on the "revert" trigger in case I were to do so. Really, this whole article ought to be scrapped. It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia. 6SJ7 21:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I haven't! Both 6SJ7 and Jayjg are obviously not helpful and quite hostile, however, Jayjg's argument regarding the timeline is solid (6SJ7: I still wait for you to tell me how it break any WP rule!). That timeline is an aberration of WP:OR.-- Cerejota 00:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a ridiculous article. How long would a jewish community last within Syria or Saudi Arabia? Moslem Arabs are permitted to be Israeli citizens and WP has an article claiming its apartheid? This seems an insult to South Africa to compare the treatment of Israeli Arabs to the treatment of black South Africans twenty years ago. 148.65.24.76 02:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I support the creation of an Arab Apartheid article. The real question though is who made the comparision. The closest thing we have to that would be the Allegations of Islamic apartheid article.-- Sefringle 03:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the premise of the question posed above. 148.65.24.76 may misunderstand this article. This article does not "claim" that anything is apartheid. The article exists to provide information about the notable allegations of Israeli apartheid by many notable sources. The creation of a second article is not necessary to balance this article. This article can be fully balanced on its own if the allegations are presented in a straightforward manner, identifying the allegations and noting criticism of the allegations, etc. Organ123 04:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There already is a Saudi Arabian apartheid article, and an Islamic apartheid article so it's unclear what another article specific to one ethnic group would add; especially as apartheid is generally a government policy, not, as you might be suggesting, caused by genetics AFAIK. -- Kendrick7 talk 17:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll put the same question to all here who oppose this article that I put to Armon. Do you have a consistent position on Israel-Palestine-related articles that cover tendentious arguments, theories, etc.? Zleitzen (who, alas, was here only briefly) argued consistently that the material in hot-button articles ought to be merged into low-key, general-issues type articles. That this article should be merged into something along the lines of Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. Presumably, Pallywood would be subsumed by something like Media Manipulation in the Israel-Palestine conflict, etc. That is a position to be respected. My position is roughly the opposite (Do a ctrl-F for "I would have much greater respect for this position..." and you'll find it on this page). When I put the question to Armon, he couldn't or wouldn't answer it. When editors begin to answer that question in earnest and articulate a principled position, we'll have the grounds for a serious discussion. Those who refuse to answer it need to understand that objections amounting to special pleading will be regarded as worthless. Sorry to be so blunt, but waaaay too much collective editorial energy has been squandered responding to objections that don't appear to be built on a foundation of actual editorial principle or even good faith.-- G-Dett 16:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
James Wall of the Christian Century quotes Tony Karon [4] of Time on Jimmy Carter's book: "What Carter is doing is challenging a taboo." And because he is "a well-established voice of peace and reason," he adds, "it's hard to brand him some sort of anti-Semitic Israel basher—although that hasn't restrained hysterics such as Alan Dershowitz [Harvard professor and trial lawyer] and Marty Peretz [New Republic editor] from doing so."
This seems to be the first press mention of "apartheid denial". Should it go in the article? -- John Nagle 06:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that was an inapt selection. Now the president says it doesn't apply, he's not talking about Israel itself, he's talking about the separation on the West Bank, but I do think the word is not one that I would have used. He points out that he doesn't mean it in a racial sense and he couldn't mean it in a racial sense. But I that think the word is sort of poisoned for historical reasons in South Africa, and even though he means it in a different sense, I think it has led to some confusion. [5]
((nb:fixed redlink of "Christian Century". Is this the same James Wall as the one on the MPAA Appeals Board?)) Andyvphil 20:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)))
The timeline is original research, and doesn't contribute to the article quality at all.
This is an article about ideas, not events. These ideas are formed by events, but chronology is irrelevant to these events.
If we can find a reliable and verifiable source or sources that provides and justifies a timeline (or even timelines) relevant to the debate around the topic of this article then we can use that as a basis for a timeline, then I would remove my objection, as it is entirely based upon opposition to original research.-- Cerejota 05:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Bah, Jayjg, I have been on the other end of your grumpy soapboxy golden tongue ;)... However I have watched this page since forever, and after months of edit warring I have come to the conclusion that there are a couple of things wrong that can be solved if someone not emotionally attached to the article intervenes, and the timeline is just the drop in the teacup. On to the meat:
"Specific criticism would be more useful. -- John Nagle"
I will repeat myself:
"This is an article about ideas, not events. These ideas are formed by events, but chronology is irrelevant to these events.
If we can find a reliable and verifiable source or sources that provides and justifies a timeline (or even timelines) relevant to the debate around the topic of this article then we can use that as a basis for a timeline, then I would remove my objection, as it is entirely based upon opposition to original research."
That is indeed a very specific criticism, and one I believe is well reasoned and respectful, you might disagree, however, if your interest is having a quality article on the topic, I suggest you reconsider.
I will further elaborate:
As I told 6SJ7: a timeline doesn't violate any policy.
In fact, you could ignore all rules.
However, wikipedia is not only an encyclopedia, it is an encyclopedia that aims to be built by previously sourced materials. Thats a big difference with other encyclopedias, including Brittanica, that commission articles. I am sure you understand what that implies: we minimize our editing to consensus-drive synthesis of what others wrote, verifiably and in reliable sources.
All of the acceptable chronologies constructed in wikipedia are a result of sources that cite them. They might not cite all of the events in the chronology, but another source will and then we format them according to our WP:MOS and debate amongst us how to make the information user-friendly. This chronology doesn't meet that criteria.
FACT: To date, no sourceable chronology of any kind exists around the topics covered in "Allegations of Israeli apartheid". So we cannot independently construct a chronology. Find a few sources that do, and then we can cook. Otherwise, all you are calling for is more disruption, edit warring, and the contents of the timeline would violate the word and spirit of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.
John Nagle, with all due respect, I think you are making a mistake in assuming my problem is with the contents of the timeline. It is not. My problem is with original research and us going way overboard with synthesis.
That is also why I think this article is {{ quotefarm}}, everybody and their grandmother wants to include all the quotes that "support" their POV, rather than the quotes that help us build an informative article so our readers can make up their minds all by themselves.-- Cerejota 01:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
(reset) I understand that you think that the "timeline" is not OR. Per WP:VERIFY#Burden of evidence: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick7, the events you include in your "chronology" are devoid of any historical context; they attempt not to document allegations of apartheid but rather try to lend credibility to the allegations themselves. If you are going to include such events, you must also include the events that give them true context, or else drop the chronology altogether. -- Leifern 12:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a problem here with POV-pushing that affects this very necessary article and lead to unnecessary edit warring.
The fundamental issue is that a set of editors firmly believes, in one way or the other, that these allegations are true, and the other set, in one way or the other, believes the allegations are false.
However, all of you need to be reminded about a cardinal rule of wikipedia: verifiability, not truth. We are not seeking truth. We are seeking verifiable sources of information.
This POV-war creates two distinct issues:
Those are my two major gripes. I of course have opinions on the subject, but this is not where I will give them. I do however think we owe to our readers and to our fellow editors a quality article.
-- Cerejota 02:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
While I generally try to avoid this article, I couldn't help but make a few changes to the intro today. Saying that those who use the analogy do so merely because of "the separation" between Jews and Arabs is a manifestly inadequate explanation. If it was just separation, there would be little in the way of complaint. The analogy is used not merely because of the physical separation, but because of the disparate rights of Jews and Arabs in these areas and the way in which these rights are enforced. I've made some adjustments to the intro which attempt to address these concerns. Gatoclass 05:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
And so on!
The inclusion as a source for "Jew Watch"'s echoing the allegations, of excerpts of an article by Uzi Ornan, published by Ha'aretz May 17, 1991 as republished by "Jew Watch" are a violation of WP:RS, WP:SOURCE/WP:V, WP:QUOTE and WP:CITE: we should source the original article as the position and comments of Uzi Ornan, not of "Jew Watch". If a WP:RS inform us of "Jew Watch"'s position on this, then we can source that. No primary sources means no primary sources. The other two sources are OK, IMHO, one is an interview, the other is published in a secondary source that is generally viewed as partisan but WP:RS.-- Cerejota 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
_____Please note: this is a continuation of the discussion from Talk:Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid#David_Duke_et_al_____ 15:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
1) David Duke is notable because he has a wikipedia page. The inverse is not necessarily true, but the only true measure about a notability in wikipedia, the one that is undebatable, is having a page that has survived AfD.
All the hundreds (or thousands?) of words arguing he is not notable should be spent over at David Duke's AfD.
What? No AfD? Do one, if you are so confident the guy is not notable...
In fact this "law" of wikipedia is behind the misguided WP:POINT AfDs of this very page. Stop being disingenuous, please.
Of course, as a leading anti-semite, a recognized voice of anti-Jewish hate and intolerance, and as an outspoken representative of the " third position" in the USA, he is also notable as a figure in debates around Israel, Zionism, etc, and hence not only notable, but relevant.
2) JayJG: do not be disingenuous, please. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim one day that David Duke is notable and relevant source for this issue and then claim that James M. Wall isn't. The guy doesn't have wikipedia page, but was speaking in representation of views held by a mainstream, influential, and quite read publication (it is THE voice of mainstream ecumenical Protestantism in the USA).
Yes, David Duke is more famous as a person, but James Wall's opinion is held by far many more people, and was done in a far more notable and reliable medium than Duke's. One cannot confuse the need for no original research, sourcing, verifiability, and reliability with notability.
Michael Jordan is more famous and notable than Benny Morris yet his opinion, if any, on this matter would be at most a footnote, while this article would be absolutely incomplete without Benny Morris being sourced and quoted.
3) As I have mentioned, properly sourced material stays. There is no way in hell anyone can convince me the material is not relevant or needed to be included, if properly sourced.
4) The attempts to lump together the allegations made by Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter, et al, with those made and echoed by David Duke et al is not only illogical, but original research, and as such we need to fully re-phrase and rework the inclusion. These people are not echoing the same allegations as Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter, and their political intent is not the same.
Jimmy Carter or Desmond Tutu do not hate Jews, do not want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth, nor do they think the Protocols of Zion are true and that Jews eat raw child-meat on the Sabbath or the other b.s. David Duke and his knights believe.
To attempt to take advantage of the calculated political move of Nazis -open or covert-, in a WP:POINT-driven attack on article integrity is one of the lowest forms of WP:SOAPBOX an editor can do.
To continue to attempt to word and lump together these disparate opinions is exactly what I meant with "treating people as morons". We aren't, and you can only stare at the abyss so long that the abyss stares back at ya...-- Cerejota 04:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I've boldly refactored; I hope that's OK with all. Cerejota, I can respond point-by-point to your post if you like, but first I think I need to have something clarified. You seem to be treating notability as a fixed quality of this or that figure, whereas the rest of us (including Jay, I think) are evaluating a figure's notability as a function of their relationship to the subject matter, their influence on RS-discussion of the subject, and so on. Is that right?-- G-Dett 15:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the entirety of what David Duke has to say about "Israeli apartheid:
If we don't talk about some of the realities of this conflict... You know, Israel is really an apartheid state in many ways. And Israel is a state... that we wouldn't tolerate actions of the American people. The New York Times is all against... It's all for intermarriage in the United States of America. But the New York Times supports Israel, where a marriage of Jewish person and a non-Jew is illegal, where a Jew who is a member of the Cohanim, which is the elite element of the Jewish tradition - they cannot even marry a Jewish person, a person who is a full-fledged Jew, of the Jewish faith, who has one drop of (non) Jewish blood. I mean, these people... Israel makes the Nazi state look very moderate in terms of its views.
You will notice it's mostly gibberish. He also talks about Jewish neo-cons as "insane people. They are Jewish fanatics, extremists, they are not normal people...The people who are pushing Jewish supremacism, Zionism - they are absolute evil and they are crazy." Tell me, Jay, how is it "completely false" to say that these arguments "diverge significantly" from that of Carter, Tutu, Benvenisti, et al? Are you talking out of your hat again? I would not normally recommend that people actually read lunatic antisemites and racists, but given the assiduity with which you flog them, trying to stuff them into every article you wish to destroy, wouldn't it make sense for you to do so?-- G-Dett 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Gilad Atzmon is a talented saxophonist and goofball narcissist whose supposedly pro-Palestinian rants interest no one but Oliver Kamm; Israel Shamir is a shady antisemitic pseudo-journalist given a wide berth by mainstream pro-Palestinian activists; Michael Neumann is an academic philosopher. None of them are cited or included in this article. Why are you asking me to distinguish them from David Duke? I'll compare and contrast Hannah Arendt and the Cookie Monster if you like – anything to chew the cud with you, Jay – but I fail to see what these odd juxtapositions have to do with the topic at hand. I don't want Duke in the article, I don't want Atzmon in the article, I don't want Shamir in the article. I am open to the cookie monster. I haven't read Neumann. Is he worth including? – Forget it, I'll ask someone who wishes to improve the article rather than wreck it.
As for your reasoning that "Paul Grubrach cites Uri Davis, so their reasoning can't be all that different," let's see what else we can plug into that formula. Norman Finkelstein cites Benny Morris, so their reasoning can't be all that different. Ernst Zundel cites Norman Finkelstein, so their reasoning can't be all that different. Turn your staunch Zionist into a Holocaust denier in two easy steps!
As to the serious part of your question, can I articulate the difference between David Duke's position on "Israeli apartheid" and that of scholars/journalists/pundits/politicians who are considered respectable and who are cited by this article? Yes, sure. Duke has no particular interest in or position on human-rights issues; none whatsoever. He didn't actually oppose South African apartheid, and has never taken up the Palestinian cause or that of any other oppressed people. Rather, he resents and despises and is obsessed with what he describes as Jewish arrogance or "Jewish supremacism." Traditionally, what he and his constituency have meant by this is: 1960s civil-rights-movement ACLU-types, along with highly educated urban cosmopolitan liberals who led the way in everything from integrating American schools to splitting the atom to formulating and consolidating notions of social justice (and "political correctness") to turning American research institutions into the world's best. The children of poor immigrants from Eastern Europe who got into Harvard and in the space of a couple generations transformed the American cultural landscape. Duke has gained what little following he has by tapping into poor white Protestant America's twinned currents of antisemitic resentment: a) resentment that a relatively recent immigrant class has so thoroughly outplayed them in the competitive pursuit of the American dream, and b) an ethno-nationalist resentment that what they see as a traditional American G-d-fearing culture (pure, white, down-home and Christian) has been steadily replaced by what they see as the "Jewish values" of secularism, intellectualism, liberalism, and cosmopolitanism. Duke has since added the neo-cons to his shit-list of "Jewish supremacists," but it's a very recent and superficial addition; foreign policy is interesting to him only as a proxy for his politics of racial and ethnic resentment. As an ethnic nationalist, Duke has an ambivalent attitude toward Zionism; and as a racist and supremacist, he has an ambivalent attitude towards those Israeli policies he describes as apartheid-like. He is not "opposed" to these things in the usual sense of the word. He envies them. He'd like restrictions on intermarriage in America; he'd like restricted communities along the lines of Jewish settlements. What he hates is that as he sees it, Jews get to have their Jewish state of Israel but he can't have his white Christian United States of America (just like blacks get to have their National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, but his National Association for the Advancement of White People is seen as toxic). All of this is clear in the Memri transcript of his appearance on Syrian state TV:
The New York Times is all against... It's all for intermarriage in the United States of America. But the New York Times supports Israel, where a marriage of Jewish person and a non-Jew is illegal, where a Jew who is a member of the Cohanim, which is the elite element of the Jewish tradition - they cannot even marry a Jewish person, a person who is a full-fledged Jew, of the Jewish faith, who has one drop of (non) Jewish blood.
This is what he means by "Jewish supremacism": what Jews get to do but he can't and it's not fair. None of this has anything to do with the Palestinians, a bunch of grubby third-world Muslims he could give a rat's ass about. Nor does it have anything to do with human-rights-based critiques of Israeli policies by Farsakh, Tutu, Adam & Moodley, Carter, et al. It's just garden-variety ethno-nationalist politics of resentment. The human-rights-based critique of Israel may seem to you and others nothing but garden-variety knee-jerk leftist anti-colonialism and third-worldism – but even so, that's a completely different thing.-- G-Dett 17:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I won't reply under the above header, although I appreciate that someone else has weighed in on this. In terms of this article, David Duke et. al. are notable primarily as anti-Semites. In terms of their notability here, it is exclusively in terms of how they are used by critics, and the text should be labeled as such, and the prominence of Duke/Jew Watch/et.al. in the article should reflect that. I do not think that Duke has otherwise played a notable role in the allegations of Israeli apartheid, and I have not seen any convincing arguments or references showing his notability in this context. This puts him only slightly above Michael Jordan. The notability discussion here should be taken in the context of this article, as Cerejota alludes to in item 2). Organ123 05:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll add that I've just seen Cerejota's last edit, which I think is an improvement. Organ123 05:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know what happened to the table of contents for this page? I looked at the coding on top and I do not see anything obvious that would suppress the TOC. And I am not the person to go messing with the coding anyway, since I'd probably make the talk page appear in a different language or something, and communication on this subject is difficult enough as it is. :) 6SJ7 21:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I came here late, maybe this has been adressed before. I just wanted to say (especailly to supporters), that the article is about allegations. Incidents and practices should be included only if they have been specifically referred to as an example of Apartheid by a reliable source. For example:
Does not qualify on it's own. However:
Once such an allegation has been documented, counter arguments to the allegation, if available, can then also be documented.
Quotes from prominent figures regarding apartheid in Israel, which DO NOT cite an example, don't belong here. That applies to both sides.
I say this because I see massive amounts of discussion on the inclusion of a timeline, and little discussion on actual content. I didn't say this to start a long thread about the intentions of various parties, it's just a suggestion from someone who has fought these battles before. Please feel free to delete this if you don't find it relevant. Best regards, -- Uncle Bungle 21:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter, former President of the United States, Camp David Accords negotiator, and Nobel Peace Prize winner and author of the 2006 book entitled Palestine Peace Not Apartheid has stated:
[Israeli options include]...A system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights. This is the policy now being followed. I would say that in many ways the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupying forces is as onerous - and in some cases more onerous - as the treatment of black people in South Africa by the apartheid government"
and:
The six rabbis...and I...discussed the word "apartheid," which I defined as the forced segregation of two peoples living in the same land, with one of them dominating and persecuting the other. I made clear in the book's text and in my response to the rabbis that the system of apartheid in Palestine is not based on racism but the desire of a minority of Israelis for Palestinian land and the resulting suppression of protests that involve violence...my use of "apartheid" does not apply to circumstances within Israel.
Former President of the United States and Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter, noted for his part in the Camp David Accords negotiations, argues in his 2006 book entitled Palestine Peace Not Apartheid that the separation of Israelis and Palestinians, and the dominance of Israel sustained by violence constitutes a policy of Apartheid, and that in many ways the treatment on the part of Israel of the Palestinian population "is as onerous - and in some cases more onerous - as the treatment of black people in South Africa by the apartheid government". [5] [9]
He has further elaborated in interviews that his allegations are limited to the situation in the West Bank and Gaza, and around the Jewish settlements, and not in Israel proper, and do not imply racism on the part of the majority of Jewish Israelis. [10] [8]
Desmond Tutu and David Duke being sides of the same coin is an example of Reductio ad Hitlerum. Please do not confuse matters: extreme right-wing Zionist kooks of the type that murdered Yitzhak Rabin might argue they are the sides of the same coin, but I triple dare you to find an scholarly or news source that joins them together.
That said, please keep in mind that there is a clear difference between WP:OR and the need to make an encyclopedia. WP:OR refers only to the fact that any bit of information in Wikipedia must be notable and come for a reliable and verifiable source. It does not refer to us making false conflagrations.
That is a problem I have pointed out before in this article (to repeat myself): the allegations and counter-allegations are multiple, complex, and include both political polemic and academic research.
This article, thanks to WP:POINT POV pushing, pushes all of them together, regardless of the sourced context they provide. Not only is comparing Desmond Tutu and David Duke Reductio ad Hitlerum, it is in fact WP:OR because it ignores the substantive, sourced differences between the two notable's motivations and even actual positions (ie David Duke's is a polemic geared towards increasing anti-semitic hate, whereas Desmond Tutu's occur in the background of seeking a South African solution to the Palestinian question - and the sources sustain this). This also happens in the counter-allegations: ultra-Zionism is mixed with Post-Zionism and then mixed with non-Zionist critique.
WP:OR nowhere states that we are forbidden from providing context, as long as this context is also sourced. This is also a wiki, and not all sources have to be in the same page: Desmond Tutu and David Duke, to give just two examples, provide ample sourced context to differentiate between their two positions.
Attempts to provide narrow definitions are as bad as those that try to provide wide definitions. A time line is WP:OR because it is impossible to build a sourced timeline of something that is not an event or series of events, and constitutes "novel narrative or historical interpretation". Making a difference between disparate allegations and counter-allegations is not WP:OR because this doesn't constitute a "novel narrative or historical interpretation". It constitutes clear logic that makes a quality article.-- Cerejota 16:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Based on the comments to my raising several things, I think that maybe a lot of the issues might be resolved by refactoring. I suggest we use the Adam and Moodley model, it is both sourced, and while providing some arguments that are POV, I think they construct the best framework from which to view the allegations.
I propose, each with its own "criticism" and "other views" section:
Adam and Moodley are a reliable and verifiable source, so I think using their model is better than the currently rather haphazard way it is organized.
Furthermore, sources indicates that there is a difference made between the situation in the pre-1967 borders and in the Occupied Territories, yet the bulk of literature either talks of Israel as including de facto the Occupied Territories or make no explicit difference between the two, in particular when referring to Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Hence a further section on "Apartheid in West Bank and Gaza" might also work.
Thoughts?
-- Cerejota 04:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
What about renaming the article "Allegations and denials of Israeli apartheid"? The current title begs the question of whether it's a legitimate term. The proposed name reflects a more neutral point of view. Comments? -- John Nagle 21:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Israeli apartheid" is not neutral to deal with the matter of human rights of Palestinians in occupied territories and Arab Israeli in Israel. The only way to deal with that would be Human Rights in Israel and Human Rights in the occupied territories.
The article Israeli apartheid should exist BUT only to point out that this is an expression used by people who claim or think (whether they are right or not) that Israel doesn't respect human rights and the article should immediately refer to the article Human right etc to deal the matter...
This will not make consensus but no matter, this is NPoV. Good luck :-)
Alithien 20:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
other articles in the series:
all are WP:RS to ma'ariv, Israel 2nd largest news paper.
Zeq 09:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
After all the contentious editing, we have a few minor stylistic problems to deal with.
why this: [17] ? Zeq 12:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
We are still waiting for an explnation to this revert Zeq 06:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Alithien 14:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The timeline as a separate article has been removed, per AfD here. There were several irregularities with the AfD:
This raises questions about what to do now in this article regarding a history/chronology of the concept. This article would clearly benefit from a section tracing the historical evolution of the concept. While the AfD discussion was far too tainted and ambiguous to be conclusive regarding the propriety of a timeline on this topic, it stands to reason that if the format of a timeline itself attracts serious good-faith opposition (as well as being a vandal-magnet), then a "History" section following the model of New Antisemitism would be the proper way forward.-- G-Dett 17:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, first of all, I do not see the "vote counting" that you are talking about. The closing admin did not announce a numerical result. In fact under the current "philosophy" of AfD's on Wikipedia, it is not supposed to be regarded as a "vote." The closing admin is supposed to weigh the arguments and see if there is a "consensus" (as that term is defined on Wikipedia, not in the real world.) (This philosophy is expressed by Cerejota in one of his comments on the AfD page, in which he also makes clear what he has made clear on this talk page, which is that the "timeline" is OR regardless of where it is, so he definitely "counts" as a "delete.") Now, whether you or I believe this system is a good idea or whether it really works this way, is another issue. Personally I think a lot of the admins quietly continue to apply the old 70-75 percent threshhold for deletion unless something about the situation jumps out at them and requires some adjustment. Which brings us to the "votes" here, I don't see how it "appears" that the "merges" were counted as "delete." Even if they were counted as "keep", there were still 75 percent for "delete." (And even if you disregard Gatoclass's vote, due to his comments above, it is still 73.6 percent for delete.) Anyway you look at it, there is a large majority who believe that the timeline itself has to go, regardless of whether it is in this article or a separate article. I also think it is clear that those who believe the timeline is "OR" were basing this on the timeline itself, and not on particular items that some may have added it.
As for the need for a history section in this article, I see some history already, though not in its own section. I suppose more dates could be added for some things that lack them now. I don't know that there needs to be a separate "history" section, but even if there is, it should not be allowed to become what the "timeline" was, which basically was a POV fork of the article in a box next to the main article -- and then a POV fork in a separate article. It is probably best if any additional historical references are integrated into the structure of the article, such as it is. However, the history needs to be balanced. Since many of the disputed measures and policies are part of Israel's struggle against Palestinian terrorism, the history of that terrorism is relevant as well. 6SJ7 19:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have already suggest a manner in which to prune the article, which is to fix the quote farm. No one has commented on this suggestion, and I am very tempted to being bold. However, I throw one last call for thoughts on this method.-- Cerejota 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand why the views of Melanie Phillips have been excised, but not, say, the views of Chris McGreal. It seems the article is slowly being stripped of any voices which take issue with the epithet. Jayjg (talk) 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
JayJG: Stand assured I am fully commited to correctly sourcing and balancing the article. Voices that critique the analogy are very important and central to a quality article, and this article would fail in quality if those voices are not given their due.
However, I do ask you that you please refrain from such specific, narrow, point/counterpoint critiques, at least for a few days. Remember to |assume good faith, remain cool, and try to refrain from all the reckless editing you engaged during the timeline's AfD: I know you were a bit out of your element then because of the obvious POV fork, but hope we can get you back to normal :D. I think your contributions have been valuable, and indeed you do have plenty to contribute in terms of sourcing, preventing OR, etc. I would like that we concentrate on principles of structure, rather than the specifics of content. I think our readers are suficiently warned that there are indeed neutrality, original research and factual discrepancies being raised by editors, and will take with a grain of salt the contents of this article, until such day as we are able to realize a quality article.
Now, I am indeed very much interest in your suggestions regarding pruning the article and solving the quotefarm issue, if any. And of course, if you disagree that taking the steps I am proposing as a framework, lets discuss them. But specific point/counterpoints on sources -while there are more important discussions going on- do not help achieve article quality, and only server to throw more fuel into the fire.
G-Dett: please also try to stay on point. This shouldn't be a competition between you and JayJG, and other people are also trying to achieve a quality article. However, I suggest we have a bit more attention span and do more than just have dry, snarky wit for each other.-- Cerejota 23:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think people need to re-read what I have written around the quotefarm issue. The problem I see is not one of balance, or neutrality, or anything like that. The problem is one of style. The article reads more like a collection of quotes than an encyclopedic entry, and furthermore, it seems editors of both POVs are happy with this.
Suggestions such as extensive quotes (arguing it gains NPOV or sustain NOR) or one-quote-per-person (to limit size), miss the point entirely.
Thousands upon thousands of articles in wikipedia are correctly sourced, contain no original research, are verifiably notable, and contain little or no quotes. There seems to be a confusion between sourcing and quoting.
I have suggested, twice what our own rules and conventions say we do: that we adopt an encyclopedic voice for our sourced material. Once I did with a generic example, the second one with an actual one. No one commented on them.
However, they remain the only way to move forward.
The rest is trying to argue that somehow this article is different from others in wikipedia and deserves some sort of special treatment, which it doesn't.-- Cerejota 23:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The template suggests that extensive quotes be moved to a page with the same name over at wikiquote. I think that is a great idea! So I have started q:Allegations of Israeli apartheid, and put the first quotes in each of the POVs as a start. Please go there, and add quotes, and don't forget to share the sources with this article. I think we can move things forward. Thanks!-- Cerejota 02:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I will start a subpage here at talk, which initially will contain a copy of the page as it stands now, so I can re-factor it according to my suggestion. The page is Talk:Allegations of Israeli apartheid/ProposedChange While anyone can feel free to edit, I ask editors please refrain from doing so initially until I have implemented all my suggestions. Then we can discuss them and edit that page until it reaches a level of consensus. The idea is to generate a radically re-factored article that addresses mostly style, but also addresses any lingering NPOV and OR issues, as per the {{ TotallyDisputed}}. That way we can keep discussion structured, and not get into edit wars. I feel the page as it stands is to garbled to warrant any sustantive editing without violating WP:3RR, so in this fashion we can develop consensus and implement without worries. We can then delete it once implemented
Thanks!-- Cerejota 02:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Cerejota,
Thank you for taking care of this very difficult matter !
I agree with all the comments you wrote here above (about title, the right to use the expression and good reasons to have an article titled Israeli apartheid in wp, etc).
But I am still not convinced.
Thinking about it yesterday, I identified 3 main reasons to my reluctance (and I think, reading you, you may share them too) :
1. You say it is an expression perfectly sourced but the article doesn't focus only on that expression and the social/political repercussion of this; instead of talking about the words : "Israeli apartheid" (who say that, who doens't, why, how, when, ...), doesn't it talk too much about the "facts" (or what some consider examples) of (alledged) Israeli apartheid.
2. With your reasonning, don't you think we could create : "
Israel, the only democracy of Middle-East and starting quoting all scholars and notorious people who use the words democracy and Israel in the same sentence ?
3. I think we should only accept information coming from secondary sources who talk about these words and refuse primary sources of "israeli apartheid". The same facts are named "Israeli apartheid" and "Israeli right to autodefense" by different people. But of course, they use theses words for other reasons... The facts should be analyse in another article (eg Palestinian civilians under Israeli rule)
Alithien 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not fully satisfied with this suggestion but I throw this to start brainstorming.
We could have 2 articles :
Article 1 would not be a redirect. Rather it would states :
What do you think about that ?
Could we get a consensus around that among all those who quarrelled here ?
Alithien 23:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The main arbitration page only describes a very small fraction of what occurred at the beginning of this article. (There is more on the workshop and evidence pages of that arbitration, but even that does not give a very complete picture.) The arbitration request was filed by John Nagle (I guess he forgot to mention that) and it was mostly for the purpose of trying to get three administrators sanctioned -- and by a remarkable coincidence, these three administrators were all on the same "side" of the dispute regarding this article, which was not the same side as John Nagle. He also threw me in there as a party, and one of his cronies wrote an "evidence" section against me that was so ridiculous that nobody could even bring themselves to propose a remedy against me. If anyone wants to try to get the full picture of who and what started the "mess", they would have to read the archived talk pages for this article, but it's a lot of reading. I think they would also have to read some of the noticeboard pages and other random Wikipedia-space pages about "Homey", whose actual user name at the time we apparently aren't allowed to use anymore. Homey is the one who started this article and edit-warred to keep it as an anti-Israel attack page, which was the whole point of creating the article in the first place. He also pulled such shenanigans as creating a sock puppet who nominated the article for deletion only a few days after it was started, knowing that there would be enough votes against deletion based solely on the newness of the article, that it would be kept despite the fact that there was a clear majority for deletion. One has to wonder what the outcome would have been if people had known that it was the creator of the article secretly nominating it for deletion. So if people really want to know how this article became such a "mess", it would help to look at the bigger picture. 6SJ7 14:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
is the drive for a one state solution: [18] Zeq 06:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil: Unfortunately for you, use of the analogy (or criticism of it) is normative in academic circles concerned with Israel and Palestine, and quite normative outside of academia. I suggest you get out of your soapbox in Wikipedia, and since you oppose the use so vehemently, perhaps engage in procuring reliably sourced material that supports your view. Hey, I hate anti-semitism, but debate around it is normative too.-- Cerejota 16:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil:
Have you read Adam and Moodley? If so, please re-read again. The caveat for "ANC Communism" are their own, not an invention of wikipedia: the "ANC Communism" is clearly not stated as fact in the source text. One thing is the need to re-phrase the quotefarm this article is, another is to completely change the meaning of a source.-- Cerejota 03:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you are misconstruing A&M: they are clearly not voicing "ANC-led communism" as their own voice, but that of the "apartheid ideologues". Do you understand the difference?
These are the type of misconstructions that border on WP:POINT disruption: since the only way out of your misquoting is to force users to turn the article into a "quotefarm" - a bad form - they disrupt article quality.
Now, I understand your point but I think you are approaching it in a wrong manner by ignoring the points raised by me and others: that the source doesn't state as fact that the ANC is communist, but the article as reverted by you does. The quotes are not weasel words, however, you are completely changing the meaning of their statement by not providing the quotes. This is standard copy-editing practice, not weasel-wording. However, your crime, completely misrepresenting and de-contextualizing a quote, is a much more serious one.-- Cerejota 12:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Andyvphil does raise an interesting issue, which is that the use of the word "apartheid" as an analogy is questioned by highly notable sources such the United States government. This is true. However, this is beyond the scope of this article. Allegations of apartheid - to which this article points to - is the correct article to include content questioning the analogy from the ground up.-- Cerejota 12:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Template:Allegations of apartheid has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Terraxos 03:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am removing again the links put back by an editor, please discuss before removing.-- Cerejota 12:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The Crime of apartheid, Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority, and Allegations of apartheid links are clearly relevant. The analogy of apartheid needs to be linked, as the article is accusing a country of apartheid. The Palestinian Human rights link is also relevant as the article addresses Palestinian Human rights.-- Sefringle Talk 04:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I read this quote from carter:
"It's not Israel. The book has nothing to do with what's going on inside Israel which is a wonderful democracy, you know, where everyone has guaranteed equal rights and where, under the law, Arabs and Jews who are Israelis have the same privileges about Israel. That's been most of the controversy because people assume it's about Israel. It's not."
And yet this man is being included in an article on allegations of israeli apartheid.
Perhaps we should split parts of this article to allegations of apartheid in the west bank, since its clearly mislabeling carters quotes to include him here. "It's not Israel." That says it pretty concisely.-- Urthogie 15:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not a POV thing so much as an accuracy thing. Even if you are anti-Israel, can you see how it might confuse people to hear so called "Israeli apartheid" isn't in Israel?-- Urthogie 14:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The "quote farm" problem is still outstanding. I'd suggest, first, that the date of the quote be added to each quote. It matters whether someone said something on this subject in 1973 or 2003.
I'm inclined to get rid of the quote from StandWithUs unless the name of an individual can be associated with the quote. There are questions about who's behind that organization, and the organization doesn't disclose much information about itself, so it lacks something as a reliable source.
What's the source for the first Benny Morris quote? Is it from the same source as the second one? They read as if written far apart in time. The first one sounds pre-intifada; the second one is clearly post-intifada. Dates would help here. -- John Nagle 20:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
"Those who use the analogy claim that Palestinians are not afforded the rights and privileges of Israelis and that Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories amounts to oppression. They may point to the physical separation between the two groups, or claim that Arab citizens of Israel receive second-class status."
What the hell? I know that Palestinians are not afforded the same rights and privelleges as Israelis-- they're not Israelis. I also know that Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories amounts to oppression (which is not to say that the Palestinians don't oppress the Israelis as well). However, I also am not such a dumbass to think that poor treatment of people means they're under apartheid.
What this lead does is it makes the mundane, obvious observation that Israelis oppress Palestinians the crux of the argument. NO! The argument is not over whether oppression or disparate treatment occurs, but whether this constitutes "apartheid." The entire debate has been reframed to make it seem like arguing for "apartheid" is arguing for the least bit of disparate treatment and oppression. I've marked the page as totally disputed.-- Urthogie 16:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I have added this article to the "Types of segregation" navbox, to provide further context.-- Victor falk 18:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The bias is in the title. The title puts one side in a debate on the real topic (the amount and nature of racism in the country in question) on the back foot before the first word of text, and the neutrality of the article cannot be recovered after that catastrophic start. This article sets out to group together a group of slurs under the pretence that together they make an encyclopedic topic. This is no more the case than for "Allegations that French people smell". Or imagine other series of article built around usage of slurs in the media: Allegations that Tony Blair is a liar, Allegations that Angela Merkel is a liar, Allegations that Bill Clinton is a liar, or Allegations that Paris Hilton is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that Lindsay Lohan is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that .... is a talentless bimbo. All of those could be sourced, and the fact that something is sourced does not necessarily make it neutral or a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia. The quoting of sources on any article does not confirm that it complies with Wikipedia:Neutrality to the slightest degree; any biased essay can be fully sourced. No rephrasing or sourcing can make this article anything more than a politically motivated attack page. Wikipedia is not a place for debate or for arguing the toss. The presence of these articles disgraces Wikipedia. Dominictimms 13:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the term "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" equals X, whatever X my be, therfore I changed the lead from "draw" to "is". -- Tom 23:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
We should rename the article to "Israeli apartheid analogy".
Thus "Israeli apartheid analogy" is more neutral, better reflects the article is it currently is, and most importantly better reflects the sources. — Ashley Y 01:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Israeli apartheid analogy would be an improvement, but I would strongly prefer something like "Israeli apartheid" controversy. Deciding whether this or that instance of the word's use constitutes an analogy, an allegation, or an epithet is usually a matter of original research, almost always immaterial.-- G-Dett 18:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is another reason for switching to "apartheid analogy". Roger Waters, the co-founder of the band Pink Floyd. See also [20] and [21]. He protested apartheid in South Africa and he did the same in Israel. That's the analogy. He didn't do that in France or Brazil, just there. He even did that against the will of Palestinians themselves [22], which makes him pretty neutral. But he's missing from this article. I'd recommend to add new section "Apartheid anology in music", while cutting off all that lenthy political quotes or reduce it to one sentence. Who needs that many statements anyway? It maybe violates the copyright too? What else is missing? The principal reference to Jimmi Carter's book is missing. There are only references to comments about the book. There's also an error in introduction. The analogy applies to Gaza and West Bank ONLY, not to Israel itself, or at least it's not documented. greg park avenue 18:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It might warrant a mention, but this is stretching notability: Roger Waters is notable for making music, not for the depth of his sociological studies.-- Cerejota 22:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
There are many more. Bob Marley while performing live at the Roxy in 1976 [23] put Israel and South Africa into one bag, adding also Macedonia, Tanzanya, Angola and some more but nothing on the current list of the "allegations of apartheid" in Wikipedia. Harry Belafonte. Nick Nolte and Sidney Poitier in the movies. No one pointed it out, that these both countries were the only ones which were for prolonged period of time under cultural embargo, enforced by the artists themselves. No one pointed it out in this article, that in apartheid era these countries were so close like Switzerland and Liechtenstein is. An Israeli citizen could travel freely to South Africa without visa or paying any customs duties, to work there, to live there, etc. It shows how similar these both political/economical systems were. If this is not an analogy, than what is? greg park avenue 12:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
One more comment and here we go. Bob Marley was completely free of bias concerning Judaism, see his lyrics in Exodus, then you'll see that he was inspired and probably even enchanted by Jewish tradition/religion. Yet in 1976 he included Israel on his apartheid list. But one year later in Jimmy Carter era when the peace talks were under way, he stroke it out. The song's "War/No more trouble" lyrics, performed in 1977 during the concert "Live at the Rainbow" by Marley and the Wailers (available on DVD), does not spell "Israel" any more. It's like giving Israelis the credit. And that's what makes Bob Marley a reliable source of reference which should be included in this article. If even he compared Israel to South Africa, then there must be an analogy. And I wouldn't underestimate all those magnificent men with guitars in preference to scholars. Nixon once did that and lost. Please, mention Bob Marley in this article too, or I will. greg park avenue 17:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - Ashley Y has correctly identified a problem here, but it lies in the wording of the the lead - and/or in the definition of "apartheid" we're using. Apartheid South-Africa style was official labeling of peoples, giving them different ID cards etc, with the apparently benign intention that they should look to their own communities for support, justice, education etc. The problem we have is that some people are using the word for all kinds of other discriminations, none of which are as institutionalised as "apartheid" was intended to be. The solution is to use the word "apartheid" according to the Afrikans meaning, in which case it may only apply to one currently existing nation on earth. PalestineRemembered 19:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, ignore the last remark in the comment above, I mean the one in the nickname. The same downstairs, which I find even more offensive, since it's addressed to the user who openly supports Palestinian course (right to return). greg park avenue 15:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Thought I would share this paper by Ran Greenstein from the Sociology Department at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. This copy notes that it was to be published in November 2006 in the Mishmat Umimpal ("Law and Government") journal of the Faculty of Law at Haifa University. Entitled Citizenship and political integration: Can we draw lessons from the rise and demise of apartheid in South Africa? it explores similarities and differences between Israeli and South African legislation and court outcomes and concludes that the differences between the two historical experiences bode badly for a South-African type resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Yet another example of the scholarly discussion surrounding the issue. Tiamat 21:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)