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(Currently this article is a stub) The translation and/or a link to the content of the Papyrus is conspicuously missing while everything that is listed is speculation. I would suggest simply listing the text and let it speak for itself.
Leiden Papyrus #344 according to xenohistorian.faithweb.com/africa/Ipuwer.html. While I don't consider such a web site authoritative I will (at least provisionally) accept their word for the offical name. RJFJR 23:05, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
The identification with the Exodus is not generally accepted by scholars. This Egyptology site refers to the Exodus association as that of "fringe historians."
I think this should be made clear in the article.-- Rob117 21:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Several people have dated the Thera-Santorin eruption to the time of the Exodus. Thus, theories connecting Ipuwer to either the Exodus or to that great volcanic upheaval are quite congenial and compatible with each other. Das Baz 18:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I read some interesting information on one of the links: "It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period." Apparently it is said that the events that happened were during the First Intermediate Period. It should be updated to say so.
If the Biblical account of the Exodus is fiction, and Ipuwer is fiction, there could still be a connection between the two. Fiction writers do borrow from each other. But if one of the two is historical, chances are good that the other one also is historical. Das Baz, aka Erudil 17:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi, while the article mainly talks about the exodus, the importance of this papyrus is certainly not its relevance to that! Cheers! 213.39.210.112 ( talk) 22:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The connection between Ipuwer and the Exodus is rejected by Egyptologists, and accepted by everyone with any common sense. Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Again we have large section that seems over-emphasised, especially as it references two writers who wrote almost a century ago. Comments? Dougweller ( talk) 16:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
This was raised above by an IP, and I and another editor have also commented on this more recently. Our policy states that "Neutrality requires that an article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint, giving them "due weight". Although we now have at least 3 editors this year agreeing that there is too much emphasis on the Exodus, one editor is continually replacing any material on this that I remove. Dougweller ( talk) 10:15, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
2 : a grave offense especially against morality 3 : criminal activity <efforts to fight crime> 4 : something reprehensible, foolish, or disgraceful <it's a crime to waste good food> Source: merriam-webster.com 97.106.241.66 ( talk) 07:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
In the cited article at [1] Enmarch does say "On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account", but you wouldn't know from the current state of the article that he goes on to write "However, it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage,45 and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments. Ipuwer is comparatively lacking in specific historical data: it contains no preserved historical setting, no kings’ names, very few and generalised toponyms and ethnonyms. The majority of its laments are timeless portrayals of a world turned on its head; even those which conceivably might refer to specific events (e.g. rebellion against the king, and despoiling royal tombs: Ipuwer 7.1–4) are presented in vague terms, and such activities are likely to have happened numerous times in Egyptian history. For these reasons, attempts to link the poem to a historical event that might also be recorded in Exodus are unconvincing. The same is true of attempts to identify the impact of the Theran eruption in the poem’s laments. Consider the most extensively posited parallel between Ipuwer and Exodus: the river becoming blood. This image cannot to be taken absolutely literally as a description of a historical occurrence" and continues to discuss this, eg "As Kitchen has noted, Ipuwer and Exodus would both then refer to the same kind of natural phenomenon." (I haven't copied the entire section, copyvio applies here also if you copy too much, but it's easy to check.)
As for citing Becher, here's the 'cite' (I'd say mention):"Numerous online examples, e.g. from a Jewish perspective M. Becher, The Ten Plagues – Live from Egypt, < http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838> accessed 01.01.2007. Similar interpretations are also found from the Christian perspective: J. Lloyd,Escape from Planet Egypt – Part 2, < http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-47.html> accessed 01.01.2007; also from an Islamic perspective: H. Yahya, The Historical Miracles of the Qur’an. The Troubles which Afflicted Pharaoh and Those about him, < http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_03.html> accessed 01.01.2007."
In comparison to the other problems, the sentence "Some of the texts in this area of interest that scholars with opposing views have weighed in their considerations are included for public consideration below" is a trivial one, but clearly neither encyclopedic or referenced (to be specific, "Some of the texts in this area of interest that scholars with opposing views have weighed in their considerations" is not referenced and my reading of 'some of the texts' is that there are others. I shall probably add some of what Enmarch says and remove the table again (there is, after all, the option of just having a link to it). Dougweller ( talk) 17:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus" which is the opening sentence of the section. Thus it belongs in the same section of our article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Becher may have credentials in the field of Jewish studies, but he has absolutely no background or even credibility in the field of Egyptology. The Ipuwer Papyrus is a classic example of an Egyptian Middle-Kingdom lament. Becher is simply unqualified to analyze this text, since he holds no degree relevant to ancient Egyptian literature. It comes as no surprise that real experts in the field, such as Richard B. Parkinson (2002) and William Kelly Simpson (1972) make absolutely no mention of the biblical Exodus in their discussion of the Ipuwer Papyrus. The weight given to Becher as opposed to people who are qualified to weigh in on this issue is quite unbalanced.-- Pericles of Athens Talk 19:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
I perhaps should have added the tag earlier. The two sections above should show why I think there is a NPOV problem in this article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
For some reason the following information is being censored in violation of NPOV.
"Once the choice was made for the First Intermediate Period reasons were found to date it to the beginning of the period or even to the last years of Pepi II in the Old Kingdom." -- John van Seters, archaeologist, December 1964
"Ipuwer had been understood by earlier scholars to be an attack by Ipuwer on a ruler, probably Pepi II." -- R. J. Williams, professor, 1981 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:31, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=9IRUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&dq=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&hl=en&ei=FW11TZ_VC5S2sAOLiPHJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:49, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=lwrzapZYqFAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
It is not censorship or a violation of NPOV to object to the use of an article by Van Seters which argues that the Admonitions were not written during the period of Pepi II but "late in the Thirteenth Dynasty" to support the suggestion that this was written as a plea to Pepi. You can use Van Seters to point out that this was an old view.
Then we have "Ipuwer had been understood by earlier scholars to be an attack by Ipuwer on a ruler, probably Pepi II." But note 'had', and that this is taken out of context as the rest of the paragraph reads: "J. Spiegel reinterpreted this as an attack by a member of the ruling class at the end of the Old Kingdom on a supposed usurper who gained power after the revolution which toppled the Old Kingdom (Spiegel, 1950). This reconstruction failed to gain general support, but is still confidently maintained in an article Spiegel contributed to the most recent encyclopedia (Spiegel, 1975). Thompson is also pointing out that this is something believed in the early part of the 20th century. So yes, we can mention Pepi II as an old idea that "failed to get general support" so long as we don't suggest it's current thought in mainstream academia. I note that your quotes come from " http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/2010/01/ipuwer-and-exodus.html", someone's blog trying to associate Ipuwer and the Exodus. By the way, crying censorship and deleting a reference where Lichtheim suggest it's fictitious is ironic. Dougweller ( talk) 09:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
An attempt is being made to exclude the following citation because it associates Pepi II Neferkare with the Ipuwer Papyrus: Rothe, R.D., et al., Pharaonic Inscriptions From the Southern Eastern Desert of Egypt, Eisenbrauns, 2008 http://books.google.com/books?id=L-kijfFNiiMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false It contains the following quote which is being censored and suppressed in deliberate violation of NPOV, "There are many petroglyphs which depict ostriches and a few that depict giraffes. Butzer (1961) has used relative frequencies of the appearance of these animals in petroglyphs to gauge the changing climate. This evidence fits well with the three OK inscriptions, at least one of which is from the reign of Pepy II, which tell of digging wells (inscriptions DN28, ML01, ML12). While it is possible that these people could be simply pioneering a new route, it seems more likely that the old sources of water were drying up. Additional weight is given to the latter argument by a passage from a document known to Egyptologists as the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer,' which described conditions during the First Intermediate Period."
I would like to include this citation, however forces of censorship wouldn't like to include this for obvious reasons -- too much reality and truth for them to handle! 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 18:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC) Bible translations are copyright material. The juxtaposition of the two texts on the source page is also subject to copyright. -- Diannaa ( talk) 12:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
I see mention of the Thera interpretation, and that it has been combined with the Exodus interpretation, but then I see no further treatment of the Thera interpretation, not even an explanation of what it is, while the Exodus interpretation has its own section. Has something gone missing? Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:13, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Some basic info on the subject would be nice. Yes we all know the exodus actually took place, can we get back on topic now? 75.82.59.19 ( talk) 04:50, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Hieratic connoisseurs will recognize that the picture shown is a mirror image of the papyrus, i.e. right and left are interchanged! Will somebody please correct that!-- Nfr-Maat ( talk) 08:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
About this removal and this one - IP address, would you please state you objections here? Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 07:56, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind reply.
"Actual consensus" is that Bible critics and atheists (this includes most Wikipedia editors) are deeply disturbed by the message of the Ipuwer as it undermines their beliefs by raising too many questions. "This is the reality of the facts" as per my message above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.111.56 ( talk) 08:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-ten-plagues.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. /wiae /tlk 02:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
"The archaeological evidence does not support the story of the Exodus, and most historians no longer consider it relevant to the story of the emergence of Israel."
This sentence is a personal point of view and has NOTHING to do with the subject "the Ipuwer Papyrus"
Archaeology and the Bible is a big subject and hotly debated by by the atheist and religious camps.
This is NOT the place to score anti religious points.
Can we please keep Wikipedia CLEAN, respectful and neutral
Wikipedia has a bad name of being run by extreme Atheists
Can we change that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.224.209 ( talk) 15:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
"the multitude of ways in which Ipuwer differs from Exodus, such as that its Asiatics are arriving in Egypt rather than leaving"
Isn't it awkward? "its", "Asiatics"... I was so confused at first that I thought that it was meant "it's the Asiatics who are arriving", but it would be even worse, right?--
Adûnâi (
talk) 03:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
I think it is worth providing some expansion of the parallels between the parchment and the Exodus account. They are quite compelling, and deserve some treatment. Certainly it is possibly unfair to only address the plague of blood. The agreements are more extensive.
IPUWER 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.
2:10 Men shrink from tasting – human beings, and thirst after water
3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
EXODUS 7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 …there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.
7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps… The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side. 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax. EXODUS 9:23-24 …and the fire ran along the ground… there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 …and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field. 9:31-32 …and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up. 10:15 …there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan… 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. EXODUS 9:3 …the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field… and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 …gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field… 9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER 9:11 The land is without light. EXODUS 10:22,23 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
IPUWER 4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets. 6:3 The prison is ruined. 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. 3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 …there was not a house where there was not one dead. 12:30 …there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. EXODUS 13:21 … by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
IPUWER 3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze… are fastened on the neck of female slaves. EXODUS 12:35-36 …and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favor them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Incredible density ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Might it be worth providing some expansion of the parallels between Exodus and the parchment? They are certainly more extensive than a possible connection to the plague of blood.
IPUWER 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. 2:10 The river is blood. 2:10 Men shrink from tasting – human beings, and thirst after water 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin. EXODUS 7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood. 7:21 …there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank. 7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps… The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side. 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax. EXODUS 9:23-24 …and the fire ran along the ground… there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 …and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field. 9:31-32 …and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up. 10:15 …there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan… 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. EXODUS 9:3 …the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field… and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 …gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field… 9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER 9:11 The land is without light. EXODUS 10:22,23 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
IPUWER 4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets. 6:3 The prison is ruined. 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. 3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 …there was not a house where there was not one dead. 12:30 …there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. EXODUS 13:21 … by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
IPUWER 3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze… are fastened on the neck of female slaves. EXODUS 12:35-36 …and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favor them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth. Incredible density ( talk) 22:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
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(Currently this article is a stub) The translation and/or a link to the content of the Papyrus is conspicuously missing while everything that is listed is speculation. I would suggest simply listing the text and let it speak for itself.
Leiden Papyrus #344 according to xenohistorian.faithweb.com/africa/Ipuwer.html. While I don't consider such a web site authoritative I will (at least provisionally) accept their word for the offical name. RJFJR 23:05, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
The identification with the Exodus is not generally accepted by scholars. This Egyptology site refers to the Exodus association as that of "fringe historians."
I think this should be made clear in the article.-- Rob117 21:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Several people have dated the Thera-Santorin eruption to the time of the Exodus. Thus, theories connecting Ipuwer to either the Exodus or to that great volcanic upheaval are quite congenial and compatible with each other. Das Baz 18:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I read some interesting information on one of the links: "It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period." Apparently it is said that the events that happened were during the First Intermediate Period. It should be updated to say so.
If the Biblical account of the Exodus is fiction, and Ipuwer is fiction, there could still be a connection between the two. Fiction writers do borrow from each other. But if one of the two is historical, chances are good that the other one also is historical. Das Baz, aka Erudil 17:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi, while the article mainly talks about the exodus, the importance of this papyrus is certainly not its relevance to that! Cheers! 213.39.210.112 ( talk) 22:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The connection between Ipuwer and the Exodus is rejected by Egyptologists, and accepted by everyone with any common sense. Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Again we have large section that seems over-emphasised, especially as it references two writers who wrote almost a century ago. Comments? Dougweller ( talk) 16:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
This was raised above by an IP, and I and another editor have also commented on this more recently. Our policy states that "Neutrality requires that an article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint, giving them "due weight". Although we now have at least 3 editors this year agreeing that there is too much emphasis on the Exodus, one editor is continually replacing any material on this that I remove. Dougweller ( talk) 10:15, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
2 : a grave offense especially against morality 3 : criminal activity <efforts to fight crime> 4 : something reprehensible, foolish, or disgraceful <it's a crime to waste good food> Source: merriam-webster.com 97.106.241.66 ( talk) 07:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
In the cited article at [1] Enmarch does say "On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account", but you wouldn't know from the current state of the article that he goes on to write "However, it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage,45 and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments. Ipuwer is comparatively lacking in specific historical data: it contains no preserved historical setting, no kings’ names, very few and generalised toponyms and ethnonyms. The majority of its laments are timeless portrayals of a world turned on its head; even those which conceivably might refer to specific events (e.g. rebellion against the king, and despoiling royal tombs: Ipuwer 7.1–4) are presented in vague terms, and such activities are likely to have happened numerous times in Egyptian history. For these reasons, attempts to link the poem to a historical event that might also be recorded in Exodus are unconvincing. The same is true of attempts to identify the impact of the Theran eruption in the poem’s laments. Consider the most extensively posited parallel between Ipuwer and Exodus: the river becoming blood. This image cannot to be taken absolutely literally as a description of a historical occurrence" and continues to discuss this, eg "As Kitchen has noted, Ipuwer and Exodus would both then refer to the same kind of natural phenomenon." (I haven't copied the entire section, copyvio applies here also if you copy too much, but it's easy to check.)
As for citing Becher, here's the 'cite' (I'd say mention):"Numerous online examples, e.g. from a Jewish perspective M. Becher, The Ten Plagues – Live from Egypt, < http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838> accessed 01.01.2007. Similar interpretations are also found from the Christian perspective: J. Lloyd,Escape from Planet Egypt – Part 2, < http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-47.html> accessed 01.01.2007; also from an Islamic perspective: H. Yahya, The Historical Miracles of the Qur’an. The Troubles which Afflicted Pharaoh and Those about him, < http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_03.html> accessed 01.01.2007."
In comparison to the other problems, the sentence "Some of the texts in this area of interest that scholars with opposing views have weighed in their considerations are included for public consideration below" is a trivial one, but clearly neither encyclopedic or referenced (to be specific, "Some of the texts in this area of interest that scholars with opposing views have weighed in their considerations" is not referenced and my reading of 'some of the texts' is that there are others. I shall probably add some of what Enmarch says and remove the table again (there is, after all, the option of just having a link to it). Dougweller ( talk) 17:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus" which is the opening sentence of the section. Thus it belongs in the same section of our article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Becher may have credentials in the field of Jewish studies, but he has absolutely no background or even credibility in the field of Egyptology. The Ipuwer Papyrus is a classic example of an Egyptian Middle-Kingdom lament. Becher is simply unqualified to analyze this text, since he holds no degree relevant to ancient Egyptian literature. It comes as no surprise that real experts in the field, such as Richard B. Parkinson (2002) and William Kelly Simpson (1972) make absolutely no mention of the biblical Exodus in their discussion of the Ipuwer Papyrus. The weight given to Becher as opposed to people who are qualified to weigh in on this issue is quite unbalanced.-- Pericles of Athens Talk 19:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
I perhaps should have added the tag earlier. The two sections above should show why I think there is a NPOV problem in this article. Dougweller ( talk) 06:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
For some reason the following information is being censored in violation of NPOV.
"Once the choice was made for the First Intermediate Period reasons were found to date it to the beginning of the period or even to the last years of Pepi II in the Old Kingdom." -- John van Seters, archaeologist, December 1964
"Ipuwer had been understood by earlier scholars to be an attack by Ipuwer on a ruler, probably Pepi II." -- R. J. Williams, professor, 1981 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:31, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=9IRUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&dq=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&hl=en&ei=FW11TZ_VC5S2sAOLiPHJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:49, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=lwrzapZYqFAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 23:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
It is not censorship or a violation of NPOV to object to the use of an article by Van Seters which argues that the Admonitions were not written during the period of Pepi II but "late in the Thirteenth Dynasty" to support the suggestion that this was written as a plea to Pepi. You can use Van Seters to point out that this was an old view.
Then we have "Ipuwer had been understood by earlier scholars to be an attack by Ipuwer on a ruler, probably Pepi II." But note 'had', and that this is taken out of context as the rest of the paragraph reads: "J. Spiegel reinterpreted this as an attack by a member of the ruling class at the end of the Old Kingdom on a supposed usurper who gained power after the revolution which toppled the Old Kingdom (Spiegel, 1950). This reconstruction failed to gain general support, but is still confidently maintained in an article Spiegel contributed to the most recent encyclopedia (Spiegel, 1975). Thompson is also pointing out that this is something believed in the early part of the 20th century. So yes, we can mention Pepi II as an old idea that "failed to get general support" so long as we don't suggest it's current thought in mainstream academia. I note that your quotes come from " http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/2010/01/ipuwer-and-exodus.html", someone's blog trying to associate Ipuwer and the Exodus. By the way, crying censorship and deleting a reference where Lichtheim suggest it's fictitious is ironic. Dougweller ( talk) 09:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
An attempt is being made to exclude the following citation because it associates Pepi II Neferkare with the Ipuwer Papyrus: Rothe, R.D., et al., Pharaonic Inscriptions From the Southern Eastern Desert of Egypt, Eisenbrauns, 2008 http://books.google.com/books?id=L-kijfFNiiMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false It contains the following quote which is being censored and suppressed in deliberate violation of NPOV, "There are many petroglyphs which depict ostriches and a few that depict giraffes. Butzer (1961) has used relative frequencies of the appearance of these animals in petroglyphs to gauge the changing climate. This evidence fits well with the three OK inscriptions, at least one of which is from the reign of Pepy II, which tell of digging wells (inscriptions DN28, ML01, ML12). While it is possible that these people could be simply pioneering a new route, it seems more likely that the old sources of water were drying up. Additional weight is given to the latter argument by a passage from a document known to Egyptologists as the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer,' which described conditions during the First Intermediate Period."
I would like to include this citation, however forces of censorship wouldn't like to include this for obvious reasons -- too much reality and truth for them to handle! 76.216.196.209 ( talk) 18:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC) Bible translations are copyright material. The juxtaposition of the two texts on the source page is also subject to copyright. -- Diannaa ( talk) 12:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
I see mention of the Thera interpretation, and that it has been combined with the Exodus interpretation, but then I see no further treatment of the Thera interpretation, not even an explanation of what it is, while the Exodus interpretation has its own section. Has something gone missing? Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:13, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Some basic info on the subject would be nice. Yes we all know the exodus actually took place, can we get back on topic now? 75.82.59.19 ( talk) 04:50, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Hieratic connoisseurs will recognize that the picture shown is a mirror image of the papyrus, i.e. right and left are interchanged! Will somebody please correct that!-- Nfr-Maat ( talk) 08:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
About this removal and this one - IP address, would you please state you objections here? Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 07:56, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind reply.
"Actual consensus" is that Bible critics and atheists (this includes most Wikipedia editors) are deeply disturbed by the message of the Ipuwer as it undermines their beliefs by raising too many questions. "This is the reality of the facts" as per my message above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.111.56 ( talk) 08:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-ten-plagues.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. /wiae /tlk 02:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
"The archaeological evidence does not support the story of the Exodus, and most historians no longer consider it relevant to the story of the emergence of Israel."
This sentence is a personal point of view and has NOTHING to do with the subject "the Ipuwer Papyrus"
Archaeology and the Bible is a big subject and hotly debated by by the atheist and religious camps.
This is NOT the place to score anti religious points.
Can we please keep Wikipedia CLEAN, respectful and neutral
Wikipedia has a bad name of being run by extreme Atheists
Can we change that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.224.209 ( talk) 15:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
"the multitude of ways in which Ipuwer differs from Exodus, such as that its Asiatics are arriving in Egypt rather than leaving"
Isn't it awkward? "its", "Asiatics"... I was so confused at first that I thought that it was meant "it's the Asiatics who are arriving", but it would be even worse, right?--
Adûnâi (
talk) 03:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
I think it is worth providing some expansion of the parallels between the parchment and the Exodus account. They are quite compelling, and deserve some treatment. Certainly it is possibly unfair to only address the plague of blood. The agreements are more extensive.
IPUWER 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.
2:10 Men shrink from tasting – human beings, and thirst after water
3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
EXODUS 7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 …there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.
7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps… The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side. 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax. EXODUS 9:23-24 …and the fire ran along the ground… there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 …and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field. 9:31-32 …and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up. 10:15 …there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan… 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. EXODUS 9:3 …the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field… and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 …gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field… 9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER 9:11 The land is without light. EXODUS 10:22,23 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
IPUWER 4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets. 6:3 The prison is ruined. 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. 3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 …there was not a house where there was not one dead. 12:30 …there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. EXODUS 13:21 … by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
IPUWER 3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze… are fastened on the neck of female slaves. EXODUS 12:35-36 …and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favor them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Incredible density ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Might it be worth providing some expansion of the parallels between Exodus and the parchment? They are certainly more extensive than a possible connection to the plague of blood.
IPUWER 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. 2:10 The river is blood. 2:10 Men shrink from tasting – human beings, and thirst after water 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin. EXODUS 7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood. 7:21 …there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank. 7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps… The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side. 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax. EXODUS 9:23-24 …and the fire ran along the ground… there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 …and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field. 9:31-32 …and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up. 10:15 …there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan… 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. EXODUS 9:3 …the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field… and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 …gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field… 9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER 9:11 The land is without light. EXODUS 10:22,23 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
IPUWER 4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets. 6:3 The prison is ruined. 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. 3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 …there was not a house where there was not one dead. 12:30 …there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. EXODUS 13:21 … by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
IPUWER 3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze… are fastened on the neck of female slaves. EXODUS 12:35-36 …and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favor them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth. Incredible density ( talk) 22:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)