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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Illuminati. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Illuminati at the Reference desk. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 1, 2004, May 1, 2005, May 1, 2009, May 1, 2013, May 1, 2017, and May 1, 2022. |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2012 and 2013. |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: |
An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased". Please discuss. Blueboar ( talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
"The Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria..." - the officially titled group may not have, and everyone may have even gone their separate ways. But if you're meaning that all of their ideas, concepts, and beliefs died the minute it happened and didn't carry forward with any of them, then I have to say THAT is a WILD theory full of naivete at best, intellectual dishonesty at worst. - Anon, 15:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
"In subsequent use, "Illuminati" refers to various organisations which claim or are purported to have links to the original Bavarian Illuminati or similar secret societies, though these links are unsubstantiated."
Almost certainly the most notable and recognizable use of "Illuminati" in modern times is either as part of a conspiracy theory or as generic secretive world order used in fiction (e.g. Deus Ex). I fail to see how these supposed organisations claiming to be descended from the actual Illuminati have a higher notability (or ANY, for that matter) than the ones alleged to exist in conspiracy theories and fiction. I know I've never heard of them, and I doubt anyone - perhaps not even the groups themselves - would take it seriously. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 21:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
"Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."
Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.
In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat ( talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks :) Phishcat ( talk) 03:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun ( talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale. I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff ( talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I wanna know if this thing exist or not. Cddkx ( talk) 14:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean. Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 ( talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
-- 188.171.58.80 ( talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Well so. those who have Africa experience, the most probable translation of Illuminati is "Cindle, ignite", "set fire to" meaning hammer and pick. I am experienced and from my point of view there is nothing else to say about it. Wikistallion ( talk) 15:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
one can BTW find an evidence by name. not Africa. ignateamus bubus actually, i ignite the ppl. thats very similar to the name of some generally known celebrity. Wikistallion ( talk) 15:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Illuminati does not mean "enlightened", in the strictest sense as translated. This definition was assigned to the group who called themselves Illuminati.
Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.103.216 ( talk) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
The rumours and speculations that the Illuminati still exists is incorporated with the conspiracy theory. Such claims have been suggested by conspiracy theorists. Today, there are many books, archives, even also documentary films surrounding these "secret elites" and the Illuminati. Such information are found elsewhere to the internet. You can find them in reliable sources. In this article, much of description specifies towards the original Bavarian Illuminati. There is some bias in portion of the old, without regarding the contemporary secret Illuminati. I think the old and the current should be written in this article for balance. The Supermind ( talk) 17:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
If you wanted to know, there are several Illuminati groups, but as far as the Bavarian Illuminati™, yes, we exists and right now we are in the process of re-structuring due to the artificial pandemic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.231.41 ( talk) 13:19, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This article doesn't reflect the current subject. What are the elites?. The current society tend to remain secret rather than their freedom of expression. They deemed to orchestrate illegal activity and influence the world to allure its members and ultimately rule the world. The context should contain their ideology, the modern government system and evil tactics. Yes, they believe in Devil and they want to fulfill the demand of the Devil. They want to subvert people faiths belonged to Abrahamic religion to Satanism and idolatry. They are fueled with evil. The Supermind ( talk) 08:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to see a mention of fictional descriptions of Illuminati plots. Illuminati (game) and The Illuminatus! Trilogy are obvious candidates. Ungulates ( talk) 00:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change membership mentions of Count Metternich and Count Stadion to: Klemens von Metternich Johann Philipp Stadion, Count von Warthausen
They should both be specifically identified given their historical significance, as they are in the sourced material. Strangestlove ( talk) 11:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi to all! My name is Luis. I'm a spanish professional musician, writer and speaker. I would like to add as an external link (If it's possible) The link goes to a video that lets the users of this page see the actual site and probably the original place where Illuminati from Bavaria make their meetings and where was located the synagogue in Ingolstadt City. Even it's in Spanish, I think it could be useful as a physical way of documentation of the environment and where the place is located in Bavaria, near Munich. Thank you who ever you read it!
This is the code:
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the main section, add a comma (to properly close the grammatically required pair of appositional commas) after "Bavaria" in this text:
"The Illuminati—along with Freemasonry and other secret societies—were outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church..."
In other words, change "outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church" to "outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria, with the encouragement of the Catholic Church"
Thank you. Bearcharts ( talk) 14:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
While it has been thought that the Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria, it now appears that this may have been incorrect. Instead of being destroyed in Bavaria, it is claimed on their own websites that they went underground as a result of the aforementioned persecution. From that moment on they only operated in the hidden background with a great emphasis on secrecy and anonymity. Now, after hundreds of years of obscurity, the true Illuminati has emerged once again on the world stage and they are openly recruiting, claiming to have millions of members, and having no need for any funding or profit. According to the information contained on their three websites, they wield a vast power across the planet, and have indeed been guiding and causing the major historical events traditionally ascribed to them, such as the formation of a New World Order. This New World Order is explained in great detail on their Globalism page.
The Illuminati has three websites that we know of, and very likely others which only the initiated can access. These sites contain a lot of explanation, both historical and contemporary, including an available book called "The First Testament".
In their book Secret Societies: Freemasons and Illuminati, Opus Dei and Black Hand, which was published in 2013 as a companion book to a ZDF documentary series on secret societies, the authors Gisela Graichen and Alexander Hesse deal not only with the Freemasons but also with the U.S. student fraternity Skull & Bones. They address conjectures according to which Skull & Bones founder William Huntington Russell is said to have borrowed numerous ritual and symbolic elements of the fraternity he founded in 1832 from student or Masonic organizations in Germany, since he had spent several months in Germany immediately before founding Skull & Bones. The authors hypothesize here that Russell may also have been in Königsberg during his stay in Germany and may then have borrowed his Skull & Bones symbolism from the emblem of the Masonic lodge there, Zum Todtenkopf und Phoenix.
This hypothesis is processed by the Austrian author David G. L. Weiss in his 2013 novel "Macht", a conspiracy thriller in which Skull & Bones plays a major role. In their research into Skull & Bones' possible (fictional) connections to Prussia, the novel's main character also speculates about a possible connection of Skull & Bones to the Lodge Zum Todtenkopf and Phoenix.
An even more far-reaching conspiracy theory is drafted by the author and ufologist Andreas von Rétyi in his 2004 book Power and Mystery of the Illuminati: According to this, Skull & Bones is the continuation of the Illuminati Order. The number 322 refers in the time calculation of Skull & Bones to the year 1832. In this year Skull & Bones was created, and at the same time the fusion of the lodges to the death head and to the Phoenix took place to the united Johannisloge to the death head and Phoenix. This merger, coinciding with the founding of Skull & Bones, symbolized the demise of the old Illuminati Order in Germany (Todtenkopf) and its resurrection in the USA in the form of Skull & Bones (Phoenix).
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Zum_Todtenkopf_und_Phoenix#Trivia 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB ( talk) 15:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
In many modern conspiracy theories the Illuminati is associated with banks and banking. This is such a prominent component of this conspiracy theory that I feel this should be expanded upon in this article. Valgrus Thunderaxe ( talk) 16:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
'In subsequent use, "Illuminati" has referred to various organisations which have claimed, or have been claimed to be, connected to the original Bavarian Illuminati […]'
It looks as if the sentence should be:
In subsequent use, "Illuminati" has referred to various organisations which have claimed to be, or have been claimed to be connected to, the original Bavarian Illuminati
[…]. Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:38, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The Conflict with Rosicrucians section seems to cite only Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande by René le Forestier, from 1914. I haven't read it and I don't particularly doubt its reliability, however the section has a clear anti-Rosicrucian slant and doesn't explain how it ties into the rest of the article. Rosicrucianism doesn't appear outside of this section, and I'm not sure where it fits in the larger history of the Illuminati. Is anyone aware of other sources that analyze the relationship (if any) between Rosicrucianism and the Illuminati? Thanks! AnandaBliss ( talk) 17:19, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
At the behest of Spartacus, I wrote against the ex-Jesuits and the Rosicrucians; I hounded men who had done me no harm; I caused disarray in the Strict Observance and drew the best of them to us; I gave them a great idea of the dignity of the Order, its power, its age, the excellence of its leaders, of the perfect fit for [Strict Observance’s] senior members, the importance of the knowledge they possessed and its righteous intentions; these people, who now show so much activity in our favour, but remain very committed to religiosity, feared that we intended to spread deism: I have therefore tried to convince them that the Grand Chiefs [of the Illuminati] had no such intention. However, little by little, I do what I please. Let us suppose, then:
Is the Conflict with Rosicrucians section of this article agree broadly with current consensus on the histories of the Illuminati and the Rosicrucians in terms of POV? And is it in need of secondary sources instead of/in addition to René le Forestier's Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande? I have also made an entry at the NPOV noticeboard here. Thank you! AnandaBliss ( talk) 12:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
the freemasons are not illuminati. Freemasonry is not a secret society. You can find anything you want on line and in the real world. It is perceived to be secret but it is not. It is just discreet. D612m ( talk) 01:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Illuminati article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Illuminati. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Illuminati at the Reference desk. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 1, 2004, May 1, 2005, May 1, 2009, May 1, 2013, May 1, 2017, and May 1, 2022. |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2012 and 2013. |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: |
An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased". Please discuss. Blueboar ( talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
"The Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria..." - the officially titled group may not have, and everyone may have even gone their separate ways. But if you're meaning that all of their ideas, concepts, and beliefs died the minute it happened and didn't carry forward with any of them, then I have to say THAT is a WILD theory full of naivete at best, intellectual dishonesty at worst. - Anon, 15:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
"In subsequent use, "Illuminati" refers to various organisations which claim or are purported to have links to the original Bavarian Illuminati or similar secret societies, though these links are unsubstantiated."
Almost certainly the most notable and recognizable use of "Illuminati" in modern times is either as part of a conspiracy theory or as generic secretive world order used in fiction (e.g. Deus Ex). I fail to see how these supposed organisations claiming to be descended from the actual Illuminati have a higher notability (or ANY, for that matter) than the ones alleged to exist in conspiracy theories and fiction. I know I've never heard of them, and I doubt anyone - perhaps not even the groups themselves - would take it seriously. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 21:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
"Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."
Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.
In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat ( talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks :) Phishcat ( talk) 03:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun ( talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale. I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff ( talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I wanna know if this thing exist or not. Cddkx ( talk) 14:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean. Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 ( talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
-- 188.171.58.80 ( talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Well so. those who have Africa experience, the most probable translation of Illuminati is "Cindle, ignite", "set fire to" meaning hammer and pick. I am experienced and from my point of view there is nothing else to say about it. Wikistallion ( talk) 15:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
one can BTW find an evidence by name. not Africa. ignateamus bubus actually, i ignite the ppl. thats very similar to the name of some generally known celebrity. Wikistallion ( talk) 15:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Illuminati does not mean "enlightened", in the strictest sense as translated. This definition was assigned to the group who called themselves Illuminati.
Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.103.216 ( talk) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
The rumours and speculations that the Illuminati still exists is incorporated with the conspiracy theory. Such claims have been suggested by conspiracy theorists. Today, there are many books, archives, even also documentary films surrounding these "secret elites" and the Illuminati. Such information are found elsewhere to the internet. You can find them in reliable sources. In this article, much of description specifies towards the original Bavarian Illuminati. There is some bias in portion of the old, without regarding the contemporary secret Illuminati. I think the old and the current should be written in this article for balance. The Supermind ( talk) 17:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
If you wanted to know, there are several Illuminati groups, but as far as the Bavarian Illuminati™, yes, we exists and right now we are in the process of re-structuring due to the artificial pandemic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.231.41 ( talk) 13:19, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This article doesn't reflect the current subject. What are the elites?. The current society tend to remain secret rather than their freedom of expression. They deemed to orchestrate illegal activity and influence the world to allure its members and ultimately rule the world. The context should contain their ideology, the modern government system and evil tactics. Yes, they believe in Devil and they want to fulfill the demand of the Devil. They want to subvert people faiths belonged to Abrahamic religion to Satanism and idolatry. They are fueled with evil. The Supermind ( talk) 08:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to see a mention of fictional descriptions of Illuminati plots. Illuminati (game) and The Illuminatus! Trilogy are obvious candidates. Ungulates ( talk) 00:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change membership mentions of Count Metternich and Count Stadion to: Klemens von Metternich Johann Philipp Stadion, Count von Warthausen
They should both be specifically identified given their historical significance, as they are in the sourced material. Strangestlove ( talk) 11:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi to all! My name is Luis. I'm a spanish professional musician, writer and speaker. I would like to add as an external link (If it's possible) The link goes to a video that lets the users of this page see the actual site and probably the original place where Illuminati from Bavaria make their meetings and where was located the synagogue in Ingolstadt City. Even it's in Spanish, I think it could be useful as a physical way of documentation of the environment and where the place is located in Bavaria, near Munich. Thank you who ever you read it!
This is the code:
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the main section, add a comma (to properly close the grammatically required pair of appositional commas) after "Bavaria" in this text:
"The Illuminati—along with Freemasonry and other secret societies—were outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church..."
In other words, change "outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church" to "outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria, with the encouragement of the Catholic Church"
Thank you. Bearcharts ( talk) 14:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
While it has been thought that the Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria, it now appears that this may have been incorrect. Instead of being destroyed in Bavaria, it is claimed on their own websites that they went underground as a result of the aforementioned persecution. From that moment on they only operated in the hidden background with a great emphasis on secrecy and anonymity. Now, after hundreds of years of obscurity, the true Illuminati has emerged once again on the world stage and they are openly recruiting, claiming to have millions of members, and having no need for any funding or profit. According to the information contained on their three websites, they wield a vast power across the planet, and have indeed been guiding and causing the major historical events traditionally ascribed to them, such as the formation of a New World Order. This New World Order is explained in great detail on their Globalism page.
The Illuminati has three websites that we know of, and very likely others which only the initiated can access. These sites contain a lot of explanation, both historical and contemporary, including an available book called "The First Testament".
In their book Secret Societies: Freemasons and Illuminati, Opus Dei and Black Hand, which was published in 2013 as a companion book to a ZDF documentary series on secret societies, the authors Gisela Graichen and Alexander Hesse deal not only with the Freemasons but also with the U.S. student fraternity Skull & Bones. They address conjectures according to which Skull & Bones founder William Huntington Russell is said to have borrowed numerous ritual and symbolic elements of the fraternity he founded in 1832 from student or Masonic organizations in Germany, since he had spent several months in Germany immediately before founding Skull & Bones. The authors hypothesize here that Russell may also have been in Königsberg during his stay in Germany and may then have borrowed his Skull & Bones symbolism from the emblem of the Masonic lodge there, Zum Todtenkopf und Phoenix.
This hypothesis is processed by the Austrian author David G. L. Weiss in his 2013 novel "Macht", a conspiracy thriller in which Skull & Bones plays a major role. In their research into Skull & Bones' possible (fictional) connections to Prussia, the novel's main character also speculates about a possible connection of Skull & Bones to the Lodge Zum Todtenkopf and Phoenix.
An even more far-reaching conspiracy theory is drafted by the author and ufologist Andreas von Rétyi in his 2004 book Power and Mystery of the Illuminati: According to this, Skull & Bones is the continuation of the Illuminati Order. The number 322 refers in the time calculation of Skull & Bones to the year 1832. In this year Skull & Bones was created, and at the same time the fusion of the lodges to the death head and to the Phoenix took place to the united Johannisloge to the death head and Phoenix. This merger, coinciding with the founding of Skull & Bones, symbolized the demise of the old Illuminati Order in Germany (Todtenkopf) and its resurrection in the USA in the form of Skull & Bones (Phoenix).
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Zum_Todtenkopf_und_Phoenix#Trivia 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB ( talk) 15:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
In many modern conspiracy theories the Illuminati is associated with banks and banking. This is such a prominent component of this conspiracy theory that I feel this should be expanded upon in this article. Valgrus Thunderaxe ( talk) 16:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
'In subsequent use, "Illuminati" has referred to various organisations which have claimed, or have been claimed to be, connected to the original Bavarian Illuminati […]'
It looks as if the sentence should be:
In subsequent use, "Illuminati" has referred to various organisations which have claimed to be, or have been claimed to be connected to, the original Bavarian Illuminati
[…]. Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:38, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The Conflict with Rosicrucians section seems to cite only Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande by René le Forestier, from 1914. I haven't read it and I don't particularly doubt its reliability, however the section has a clear anti-Rosicrucian slant and doesn't explain how it ties into the rest of the article. Rosicrucianism doesn't appear outside of this section, and I'm not sure where it fits in the larger history of the Illuminati. Is anyone aware of other sources that analyze the relationship (if any) between Rosicrucianism and the Illuminati? Thanks! AnandaBliss ( talk) 17:19, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
At the behest of Spartacus, I wrote against the ex-Jesuits and the Rosicrucians; I hounded men who had done me no harm; I caused disarray in the Strict Observance and drew the best of them to us; I gave them a great idea of the dignity of the Order, its power, its age, the excellence of its leaders, of the perfect fit for [Strict Observance’s] senior members, the importance of the knowledge they possessed and its righteous intentions; these people, who now show so much activity in our favour, but remain very committed to religiosity, feared that we intended to spread deism: I have therefore tried to convince them that the Grand Chiefs [of the Illuminati] had no such intention. However, little by little, I do what I please. Let us suppose, then:
Is the Conflict with Rosicrucians section of this article agree broadly with current consensus on the histories of the Illuminati and the Rosicrucians in terms of POV? And is it in need of secondary sources instead of/in addition to René le Forestier's Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande? I have also made an entry at the NPOV noticeboard here. Thank you! AnandaBliss ( talk) 12:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
the freemasons are not illuminati. Freemasonry is not a secret society. You can find anything you want on line and in the real world. It is perceived to be secret but it is not. It is just discreet. D612m ( talk) 01:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)