This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it really useful to describe Welsh laws of Succession as Agnatic? Welsh law accepts descent through the female line and even children considered illegitimate by other legal systems. Under the laws of Hywel Dda a women could not claim the throne but her male descendents could (her claim transferring to her sons). Welsh law is also not really concerned with simply a claimant being of the patrilinear line. Under Welsh laws any male descendent of Rhodri Mawr (whether legitimate or illegitimate) has claim to membership of the line (and thus dynasty).Most historians accept that the Welsh princes and the legal system took seriously the belief that their daughters' lines and their illegitimate offspring remained royal and legitimate. This had precedent during the period of Welsh Independence. In 1400 Owain Glyndwr was accepted by the Welsh Princes even though his descent from Rhodri Mawr was based on the female line and earlier still in 1055 Gruffudd ap Llywelyn claimed through his mother). Perhaps we should change mentions of agnatic descent to make clear that Welsh succession law did not work like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.71.50 ( talk) 01:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
A very late comment to add, so apologies for not doing so before now - whatever the laws of Wales / Hywel Dda or anyone else, the fact is that in practise all manner of protocols were followed. As mentioned in another comment below, it was force of arms and/or personality that won succession as much as anything else. The English kings tried to impose some order to succession in Gwynedd - particularly after marriage of Llywelyn the Last to the daughter of the King, but it didn't go down well. Fferllys ( talk) 12:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
What reliable sources says that Evan Vaughan Anwyl is head of this house? A search of Burke's on line for Aberffraw yields nothing. I have also found a claim here that the current head is someone else. And this says "when Dafydd was hanged, drawn and quartered at Shrewsbury the following year, thus extinguishing the ancient royal house of Aberffraw[historical details after Hanes Cymru by John Davies]." This looks like it is all original research. Dougweller ( talk) 11:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC) And we have Sir Watkin Williams-Wynn, 11th Baronet as another claimant. Not that that article is very good, it's main source is some Russian encyclopedia. Dougweller ( talk) 12:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The Queen of England descends in the direct line (female) from Llewellyn the Great so this is clearly wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.233.63.89 ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I welcome all of this discussion. The fact is that there can be no such thing as a 'head of' the House of Aberffraw. The dynasty's succession is now, in effect subsumed into the United Kingdom - the Princes of Wales since the time of Edward I have carried the royal arms of Gwynnedd, and due to marriage by descendants of the dynasty, the current Prince of Wales and his predecessors since medieval times have all been descendants of Llywelyn the Great/ab Iorwerth. The other difficulty is that the line of succession of Welsh princes did not follow the custom of today - it was more a case of 'the strongest rules'. That is why the descendants of Owain Gwynedd's eldest son Hywel did not rule Gwynedd, but instead it was the descendants of his younger brother Iorwerth who became Princes of Gwynedd. It is noteworthy that being born out of marriage was no bar to succession to a son becoming his father's heir - it was all based on the son's suitability to rule, and that most often meant the one who could impose his will by military force. Succession also often followed an agnatic flow, rather as the House of Saud does today; and like the current situation with the house of Saud, the agnatic tendency was often broken. Brothers often competed with and fought their siblings to inherit their fathers patrimony - Deheubarth's history following the death of The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd is one example. If one sought to find a 'Head of' the house of Aberffraw, following a principle of succession via the male line, and wished to pick out the eldest son of the ultimate eldest son etc, then one would need to go back to Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd. One would find that a family called Michael, one of whom (with the name 'Michael de Sybylltir') was granted the undifferenced arms of Owain Gwynedd by then Garter King of Arms, Peter Wynn-Jones at the College of Arms, c.1980s/90s...exact date and College reference unknown, but easily discoverable from the College itself. The idea of the Anwyl family being the head of the house of Aberffraw is historically, genealogically and otherwise impossible to conclude - the Wikipedia page itself shows the Wynn's being descended from an older son, and many other lines probably exist but unknown to us due to the paucity of existing records. Peter Bartrum's extensive genealogies illustrate the differing versions of pedigrees recorded by the herald and other bards and records. It is a romantic idea to find a head of this House of Aberffraw, but no claim would be likely to stand up to scrutiny if brought before the High Court of Chivalry at The College of Arms. Fferllys ( talk) 11:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on House of Aberffraw. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
I amended a citation tag about an empty history section, and also found plenty of references to finish the article. I've worked solo and added books and online sources. I think I've covered all the missing components to make a great article. However maybe restructuring the paragraphs could help, and adding Davies 1994 page numbers would compete the citations. However someone is changing the introduction without reference, don't expect me not to amend an error if it arises, I added another book reference and will try and cooperate new additions, but remember 'refs' if you are reading this. Cltjames ( talk) 01:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
A message appears in the article edit section :
Script warning: One or more {{
cite book}}
: Empty citation (
help) templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden
Could someone please help with this script warning as I am unable to discover the problem for now ... ? Cltjames ( talk) 21:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Leofric de Blackwell/Blackwelyn and Aelfgar son of Leofric
Edith daughter of Aelfgar became queen consort of Gwynedd and lady of the Mercians
married Into the Kingdom of Gwynedd Edith had two daughters Nest and Guenta.Then when the family had to flee in 1066 After the Battle of Hastings, Morcar and his brother arrived at London, sent their sister Ealdgyth-Edith, king Harold's widow, to Chester, and urged the citizens to raise one or the other of them to the throne. Her daughters Nest and Guenta lived. Chester was one of the last cities in England to fall to the Normans and William of Normandy and was the capital of the former kingdom Gwynedd,Chester is thought to once have been in North-east Wales early 10th century and 11TH Century become part of Gwynedd.
one of her daughter's Guenta who married Fleance son of Banquo. A few words concerning the origin of the House of Stuart might be apropos: Fleance, son of Banquo mentioned in "Macbeth," fled to England after the murder of his father, and there married Guenta, a daughter of Griffith, Prince of Wales, whose wife was Eadgyth aka Edith (afterwards the wife of Harold II., King of England, "The last of the Saxons"), a daughter of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia and son of Leofric de Blackwell/Blackwelyn and the celebrated Lady Godiva. Alan, son of Fleance (or Flaald, as he was also called), was the father of Walter Fitz-Alan, who became Lord High Steward of Scotland, from which dignity he took his family name of Steward (or Stewart). His descendant, Alexander Stewart, married the Princess Marjory Bruce, daughter of Robert I., King of Scotland, and their son succeeded his maternal grandfather as Robert II., of Scotland. From him came all the succeeding Kings of Scotland and of England.The FitzAlan family shared a common patrilineal ancestry with the House of Stuart. (the House of Aberffraw) Edith married Gruffydd ap Llywelyn who was a member of the (Aberffraw dynasty Edith and Gruffydd had two daughters Nest and Gunnta. 2607:FB91:1018:804B:884A:4203:74A7:C727 ( talk) 02:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps the seat section has gotten out of control, besides a lot if these castles were built by Normans and occupied by the Welsh. Maybe we could consider changing the seat to be a castle built by the house of Aberffraw as opposed to occupied? Cltjames ( talk) 01:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2023 September 14. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
The entire concept of a "house of Aberffraw" seems to be original research. Can anyone produce any suitable scholarly articles that use the concept? If not, this article needs deletion. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Talaeth Aberffraw is a well-known Welsh dynasty that has been observed and covered by many scholars. Here is a basic entry from a royal forum. Then I will produce some book entries to reinforce this point made centuries ago. I think the key one to explore is the Rhodri Mawr (c. 873) founding of Aberffraw palace which became the capital of the Kingdom of Gwynedd for centuries, this is obvious in the text,
There is the self-published article of HouseOfAberffraw.org this was recently created based on fact and research conducted in Wales but could be in question because of Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources. However, the concept of a Royal house is proven and just needs to be researched to be found. I've included a few books to start with in this article which name Aberffraw as a royal house representing the Kingdom of Gwynedd, my inclusion again is an elboration. I did not start this article, nor will I finish this article. Please refer to the prior inclusions before my work began in April 2021. I just used some of the sources I named here as lists of references I correctly included.
This article is all correctly referenced with adequate sources for the most part. Please do not haste into a deletion. Because of Wikipedia:Verifiability then maybe there is a chance this article can have a slimming edit, not a deletion. Please use talk before making adjustments, as we've spoken before @ Richard Keatinge: we can do this the proper way and speak with a 3rd person, as in Wikiproject Wales as you've previously mentioned in the King of Wales article. Please and Thank you. p.s. I've started a conversation at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales#Departments Cltjames ( talk) 00:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
I would support the deletion of this article. It is hard to know where to begin, as there are so many things wrong with it, but as examples of the many concerns:
Also,
John Davies (historian) quote about the
Flag of Wales, which proves
Owain Lawgoch connection which I observed and added to the article. Davies, John (2007).
A History of Wales. Penguin UK.
ISBN
978-0-14-192633-9. Retrieved 23 December 2019. The plot was carried out (by a Scot) in 1378, and Saint Leger on the banks of the Garonne (opposite Chateau Calon Segur - not a Welsh name, alas) became the burial place of the last of the senior male line of the house of Aberffraw. Following the extinction of that line,...
Cltjames (
talk) 13:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Cltjames (
talk) 13:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
This maybe one of many articles than appear to be wholly OR. See Anwyl of Tywyn family as another example which seems also to have no merit based on its sourcing. Velella Velella Talk 21:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Cltjames - Your editing, here and elsewhere, conflicts with a core policy of Wikipedia, Wikipedia:No original research. What you are doing is undertaking your own research/analysis of a mass of sources, many of which are outdated, unreliable, or plain nonsense, and which do not constitute reliable sources. You are then using Wikipedia as a platform to present your results. This isn't allowed. I've therefore taken the rather drastic step of reverting the article to the state in which it existed before your expansion. The article as it currently stands is 90.4% your work, so the loss is limited.
If your aim on here is to help build an encyclopaedia, you can then begin a re-expansion. But I would strongly suggest that you have a read of our core policies before you do. In particular:
As we know, the House of Aberffraw hasn't been covered much, but as I proved, there are plenty of older sources. Bye for now, if someone else can try improving this article with modern book references that they have, that would be ideal. Cltjames ( talk) 13:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
I'm adding a continuation to the debate about WP:OR. I would like to ask users involved in this talk about the House of Aberffraw whether my recent edits are up to standard. Remembering WP:RS was an issue, however that wasn't the case with all my article work. The books I've added for the Cambro-Norse era references are within dating range for an acceptable source. These paragraphs which effectively are a partial revert are well written and very relevent to the article. The section fills in the gap between the 9th to 12th centuries for the Aberffraw dynasty in Wales which is necessary for continuity. Please talk to help improve if any problems have arisen. We should work as a team to improve this article, thanks for your patience. Cltjames ( talk) 05:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
It is about the House of Aberffraw as a concept used in reliable sources. It is not here to duplicate the articles on the members of the house, or on the history of Wales in the Middle Ages in general. I suggest that we should be working towards an article, probably based on John Davies since he's the major reliable source that uses the concept, that:
This phrase, Is there any way to connect the article to its current claimants?, does illustrate the issue rather well. We're trying to write a verifiable encyclopaedia. We're not, or shouldn't be, trying to do a Dan Brown-style Bloodline of Christ piece that attempts to link 9th-century figures to 21st-century claimants to... what, the Welsh throne? Such fantasy pieces are fine for your blog, but they don't belong here. As an illustration, look at Joseph Bradney's A History of Monmouthshire from the Coming of the Normans into Wales down to the Present Time. Bradney loved family genealogies, and pillaged old sources, including Geoffrey of Monmouth and Iolo Morganwg, to draw them up. But, seventy years ago, it was recognised that they weren't historical - "Sir Joseph Bradney gives a large number (which) trace their ancestry to Welsh kings or Norman lords but are, like those of their English contemporaries, mostly fictitious". All the best with the blog. KJP1 ( talk) 06:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it really useful to describe Welsh laws of Succession as Agnatic? Welsh law accepts descent through the female line and even children considered illegitimate by other legal systems. Under the laws of Hywel Dda a women could not claim the throne but her male descendents could (her claim transferring to her sons). Welsh law is also not really concerned with simply a claimant being of the patrilinear line. Under Welsh laws any male descendent of Rhodri Mawr (whether legitimate or illegitimate) has claim to membership of the line (and thus dynasty).Most historians accept that the Welsh princes and the legal system took seriously the belief that their daughters' lines and their illegitimate offspring remained royal and legitimate. This had precedent during the period of Welsh Independence. In 1400 Owain Glyndwr was accepted by the Welsh Princes even though his descent from Rhodri Mawr was based on the female line and earlier still in 1055 Gruffudd ap Llywelyn claimed through his mother). Perhaps we should change mentions of agnatic descent to make clear that Welsh succession law did not work like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.71.50 ( talk) 01:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
A very late comment to add, so apologies for not doing so before now - whatever the laws of Wales / Hywel Dda or anyone else, the fact is that in practise all manner of protocols were followed. As mentioned in another comment below, it was force of arms and/or personality that won succession as much as anything else. The English kings tried to impose some order to succession in Gwynedd - particularly after marriage of Llywelyn the Last to the daughter of the King, but it didn't go down well. Fferllys ( talk) 12:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
What reliable sources says that Evan Vaughan Anwyl is head of this house? A search of Burke's on line for Aberffraw yields nothing. I have also found a claim here that the current head is someone else. And this says "when Dafydd was hanged, drawn and quartered at Shrewsbury the following year, thus extinguishing the ancient royal house of Aberffraw[historical details after Hanes Cymru by John Davies]." This looks like it is all original research. Dougweller ( talk) 11:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC) And we have Sir Watkin Williams-Wynn, 11th Baronet as another claimant. Not that that article is very good, it's main source is some Russian encyclopedia. Dougweller ( talk) 12:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The Queen of England descends in the direct line (female) from Llewellyn the Great so this is clearly wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.233.63.89 ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I welcome all of this discussion. The fact is that there can be no such thing as a 'head of' the House of Aberffraw. The dynasty's succession is now, in effect subsumed into the United Kingdom - the Princes of Wales since the time of Edward I have carried the royal arms of Gwynnedd, and due to marriage by descendants of the dynasty, the current Prince of Wales and his predecessors since medieval times have all been descendants of Llywelyn the Great/ab Iorwerth. The other difficulty is that the line of succession of Welsh princes did not follow the custom of today - it was more a case of 'the strongest rules'. That is why the descendants of Owain Gwynedd's eldest son Hywel did not rule Gwynedd, but instead it was the descendants of his younger brother Iorwerth who became Princes of Gwynedd. It is noteworthy that being born out of marriage was no bar to succession to a son becoming his father's heir - it was all based on the son's suitability to rule, and that most often meant the one who could impose his will by military force. Succession also often followed an agnatic flow, rather as the House of Saud does today; and like the current situation with the house of Saud, the agnatic tendency was often broken. Brothers often competed with and fought their siblings to inherit their fathers patrimony - Deheubarth's history following the death of The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd is one example. If one sought to find a 'Head of' the house of Aberffraw, following a principle of succession via the male line, and wished to pick out the eldest son of the ultimate eldest son etc, then one would need to go back to Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd. One would find that a family called Michael, one of whom (with the name 'Michael de Sybylltir') was granted the undifferenced arms of Owain Gwynedd by then Garter King of Arms, Peter Wynn-Jones at the College of Arms, c.1980s/90s...exact date and College reference unknown, but easily discoverable from the College itself. The idea of the Anwyl family being the head of the house of Aberffraw is historically, genealogically and otherwise impossible to conclude - the Wikipedia page itself shows the Wynn's being descended from an older son, and many other lines probably exist but unknown to us due to the paucity of existing records. Peter Bartrum's extensive genealogies illustrate the differing versions of pedigrees recorded by the herald and other bards and records. It is a romantic idea to find a head of this House of Aberffraw, but no claim would be likely to stand up to scrutiny if brought before the High Court of Chivalry at The College of Arms. Fferllys ( talk) 11:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on House of Aberffraw. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
I amended a citation tag about an empty history section, and also found plenty of references to finish the article. I've worked solo and added books and online sources. I think I've covered all the missing components to make a great article. However maybe restructuring the paragraphs could help, and adding Davies 1994 page numbers would compete the citations. However someone is changing the introduction without reference, don't expect me not to amend an error if it arises, I added another book reference and will try and cooperate new additions, but remember 'refs' if you are reading this. Cltjames ( talk) 01:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
A message appears in the article edit section :
Script warning: One or more {{
cite book}}
: Empty citation (
help) templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden
Could someone please help with this script warning as I am unable to discover the problem for now ... ? Cltjames ( talk) 21:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Leofric de Blackwell/Blackwelyn and Aelfgar son of Leofric
Edith daughter of Aelfgar became queen consort of Gwynedd and lady of the Mercians
married Into the Kingdom of Gwynedd Edith had two daughters Nest and Guenta.Then when the family had to flee in 1066 After the Battle of Hastings, Morcar and his brother arrived at London, sent their sister Ealdgyth-Edith, king Harold's widow, to Chester, and urged the citizens to raise one or the other of them to the throne. Her daughters Nest and Guenta lived. Chester was one of the last cities in England to fall to the Normans and William of Normandy and was the capital of the former kingdom Gwynedd,Chester is thought to once have been in North-east Wales early 10th century and 11TH Century become part of Gwynedd.
one of her daughter's Guenta who married Fleance son of Banquo. A few words concerning the origin of the House of Stuart might be apropos: Fleance, son of Banquo mentioned in "Macbeth," fled to England after the murder of his father, and there married Guenta, a daughter of Griffith, Prince of Wales, whose wife was Eadgyth aka Edith (afterwards the wife of Harold II., King of England, "The last of the Saxons"), a daughter of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia and son of Leofric de Blackwell/Blackwelyn and the celebrated Lady Godiva. Alan, son of Fleance (or Flaald, as he was also called), was the father of Walter Fitz-Alan, who became Lord High Steward of Scotland, from which dignity he took his family name of Steward (or Stewart). His descendant, Alexander Stewart, married the Princess Marjory Bruce, daughter of Robert I., King of Scotland, and their son succeeded his maternal grandfather as Robert II., of Scotland. From him came all the succeeding Kings of Scotland and of England.The FitzAlan family shared a common patrilineal ancestry with the House of Stuart. (the House of Aberffraw) Edith married Gruffydd ap Llywelyn who was a member of the (Aberffraw dynasty Edith and Gruffydd had two daughters Nest and Gunnta. 2607:FB91:1018:804B:884A:4203:74A7:C727 ( talk) 02:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps the seat section has gotten out of control, besides a lot if these castles were built by Normans and occupied by the Welsh. Maybe we could consider changing the seat to be a castle built by the house of Aberffraw as opposed to occupied? Cltjames ( talk) 01:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2023 September 14. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
The entire concept of a "house of Aberffraw" seems to be original research. Can anyone produce any suitable scholarly articles that use the concept? If not, this article needs deletion. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Talaeth Aberffraw is a well-known Welsh dynasty that has been observed and covered by many scholars. Here is a basic entry from a royal forum. Then I will produce some book entries to reinforce this point made centuries ago. I think the key one to explore is the Rhodri Mawr (c. 873) founding of Aberffraw palace which became the capital of the Kingdom of Gwynedd for centuries, this is obvious in the text,
There is the self-published article of HouseOfAberffraw.org this was recently created based on fact and research conducted in Wales but could be in question because of Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources. However, the concept of a Royal house is proven and just needs to be researched to be found. I've included a few books to start with in this article which name Aberffraw as a royal house representing the Kingdom of Gwynedd, my inclusion again is an elboration. I did not start this article, nor will I finish this article. Please refer to the prior inclusions before my work began in April 2021. I just used some of the sources I named here as lists of references I correctly included.
This article is all correctly referenced with adequate sources for the most part. Please do not haste into a deletion. Because of Wikipedia:Verifiability then maybe there is a chance this article can have a slimming edit, not a deletion. Please use talk before making adjustments, as we've spoken before @ Richard Keatinge: we can do this the proper way and speak with a 3rd person, as in Wikiproject Wales as you've previously mentioned in the King of Wales article. Please and Thank you. p.s. I've started a conversation at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales#Departments Cltjames ( talk) 00:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
I would support the deletion of this article. It is hard to know where to begin, as there are so many things wrong with it, but as examples of the many concerns:
Also,
John Davies (historian) quote about the
Flag of Wales, which proves
Owain Lawgoch connection which I observed and added to the article. Davies, John (2007).
A History of Wales. Penguin UK.
ISBN
978-0-14-192633-9. Retrieved 23 December 2019. The plot was carried out (by a Scot) in 1378, and Saint Leger on the banks of the Garonne (opposite Chateau Calon Segur - not a Welsh name, alas) became the burial place of the last of the senior male line of the house of Aberffraw. Following the extinction of that line,...
Cltjames (
talk) 13:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Cltjames (
talk) 13:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
This maybe one of many articles than appear to be wholly OR. See Anwyl of Tywyn family as another example which seems also to have no merit based on its sourcing. Velella Velella Talk 21:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Cltjames - Your editing, here and elsewhere, conflicts with a core policy of Wikipedia, Wikipedia:No original research. What you are doing is undertaking your own research/analysis of a mass of sources, many of which are outdated, unreliable, or plain nonsense, and which do not constitute reliable sources. You are then using Wikipedia as a platform to present your results. This isn't allowed. I've therefore taken the rather drastic step of reverting the article to the state in which it existed before your expansion. The article as it currently stands is 90.4% your work, so the loss is limited.
If your aim on here is to help build an encyclopaedia, you can then begin a re-expansion. But I would strongly suggest that you have a read of our core policies before you do. In particular:
As we know, the House of Aberffraw hasn't been covered much, but as I proved, there are plenty of older sources. Bye for now, if someone else can try improving this article with modern book references that they have, that would be ideal. Cltjames ( talk) 13:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
I'm adding a continuation to the debate about WP:OR. I would like to ask users involved in this talk about the House of Aberffraw whether my recent edits are up to standard. Remembering WP:RS was an issue, however that wasn't the case with all my article work. The books I've added for the Cambro-Norse era references are within dating range for an acceptable source. These paragraphs which effectively are a partial revert are well written and very relevent to the article. The section fills in the gap between the 9th to 12th centuries for the Aberffraw dynasty in Wales which is necessary for continuity. Please talk to help improve if any problems have arisen. We should work as a team to improve this article, thanks for your patience. Cltjames ( talk) 05:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
It is about the House of Aberffraw as a concept used in reliable sources. It is not here to duplicate the articles on the members of the house, or on the history of Wales in the Middle Ages in general. I suggest that we should be working towards an article, probably based on John Davies since he's the major reliable source that uses the concept, that:
This phrase, Is there any way to connect the article to its current claimants?, does illustrate the issue rather well. We're trying to write a verifiable encyclopaedia. We're not, or shouldn't be, trying to do a Dan Brown-style Bloodline of Christ piece that attempts to link 9th-century figures to 21st-century claimants to... what, the Welsh throne? Such fantasy pieces are fine for your blog, but they don't belong here. As an illustration, look at Joseph Bradney's A History of Monmouthshire from the Coming of the Normans into Wales down to the Present Time. Bradney loved family genealogies, and pillaged old sources, including Geoffrey of Monmouth and Iolo Morganwg, to draw them up. But, seventy years ago, it was recognised that they weren't historical - "Sir Joseph Bradney gives a large number (which) trace their ancestry to Welsh kings or Norman lords but are, like those of their English contemporaries, mostly fictitious". All the best with the blog. KJP1 ( talk) 06:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)