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I would like to hear what is wrong with title Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Please no blanket statements about holocaust denial. Trial was took place in Soviet Estonia and it was about Holocaust. "War Crimes" can include many other things and do not even need to be connected to WW II.-- Staberinde 13:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Petri, I asked what is wrong with title ( Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961), I did not question if it is show trial, if they were actualy guilty, if estonia was occupied then trial took place or anything else unrelated. Also that The word "holocaust" was unknown in 1961 is not an argument as it was also not known in 1939-1945 but we still have article The Holocaust.-- Staberinde 13:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I support the title of Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Other variants are thinkable, such as Holocaust trials of 1961 in Estonian SSR. I oppose narrowing the scope to war crimes; old footage shows undubitably that the primary accusations were those of crimes against humanity instead. Thus, classifying the whole proceedings under Holocaust (as well as genocide) is more appropriate than classifying it under war crimes.
Furthermore, it probably deserves mention that trials like this, as well as other -- less publicised -- NKVD/ KGB executions, were a main factor in there being so little Nazi criminals left to try in post-Soviet Estonia, which Simon Wiesenthal Center regularly points out. Digwuren 14:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This article specifically describes the trials held in Soviet Estonia over crimes committed against Jews during WW2. Martintg 22:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Current title is not adequate, as they were Holocaust trials - and they certainly happened in Soviet Estonia. Perhaps Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, like has been recommended before. That gives all location, incident and time frame. DLX 15:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Petri has provided no serious argumentation aganist renaming. Also attempt to use very poorly conducted google search as agument is ridiculous, as Klamber demonstrated: "Estonian war crimes trials" = 0. Proposed Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia is a lot more accurate.-- Staberinde 16:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Title is more succinct. This effort to keep the title Estonian war crimes trials in preference to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia seems to be an attempt to diminish the crimes of the Holocaust by placing it on the level of a mere War crime, thus it could be construed as a form of Holocaust Denial. -- Martintg 18:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. The suggested alternative title is much less ambiguous. Current title is logically inconsistent wordplay by a certain user with a vociferous record of denying the 1940-1941/1944-1991 Soviet occupation of Estonia. Inconsistent because, according to such "logic" of Soviet occupation denial, Estonian state did not exist in 1942, Kalevi-Liiva was on Soviet territory, and Gerrets, Mere and other criminals were Soviet citizens, which would make the subject of this article really "Soviet war crimes", not "Estonian war crimes"... Disclaimer: In case anyone suspects me of being the puppeteer of DLX and Klamber, please do not count this vote. Cheers, -- 3 Löwi 08:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The consensus is clear; I moved the article to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia.
Petri Krohn's only nay here is a clear illustration of his rôle as a consistent obstructionist on Estonia-related articles. Digwuren 12:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me, that that you are trying to dismiss the trials and the evidence as "Soviet propaganda". This is a common atitude among Estonians, as evident in the on-line comments to one of the sources: Arvamused artiklile Omakaitse omakohus -- Petri Krohn 14:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
There is clearly no consensus to move. The weaselizing move poll is not valid, and voting is evil. One might have asked me in advance who will vote to expurgate the word "Holocaust" from the title, and my prediction would have been accurate. Wikipedia does not welcome the votes of one-purpose meatpuppets. What about some comments from a neutral observer? Have you listed the page on WP:RM? -- Ghirla -трёп- 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Please note that the current title implicitly follows the same article naming convention as German war crimes, Italian war crimes, Japanese war crimes, Japanese war crimes trials, etc., whereas it would much more logically fit in the same pattern as Auschwitz trial, Belsen Trial, Frankfurt Auschwitz trials, Hamburg Ravensbrück Trials, Mauthausen-Gusen camp trials, etc. -- Klamber 15:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading from somewhere, that detailed conscript of trial's closing/final statement (probably wrong wording, I don't know what is correct) by Gerrets were released to the newspapers before he made that statement. I couldn't find the source, but it would be good to have that in the article. DLX 16:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
From the article Show trial:
“ | The term show trial describes a type of public trial in which the judicial authorities have already determined the guilt of the defendant: the actual trial has as its only goal to present the accusation and the verdict to the public as an impressive example and as a warning. It tends to be retributive rather than correctional justice. Most of the time it involves a 'sin' and a 'planting of evidence'. | ” |
There has not been any proof or references presented to show that this trial would satisfy any of the criteria listed. It has been tagged for sources almost two days. I am removing the claim of show trial. -- Petri Krohn 18:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
As to this diff, the source [Birn, Ruth Bettina (2001), Collaboration with Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe: the Case of the Estonian Security Police. Contemporary European History 10.2, 181-198, available via Cambridge Journals Online with subscription] says nothing about Viik, Wijk Vijk, Wiik etc. Any suggestions? And yes, somebody claimed that he was going to start arbitration. If so, this will certainly go right there. Colchicum 12:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Ghirla, what abuse of {fact} tags? References of earlier version of article included German wikipedia, broken link and forum. I assume that you know such things are not really reliable, especially with controversial stuff like here. As Petri had written article at same day I expected him to have all reliable references at hand and expeted it to be only short formality for him to solve the problem by adding references.-- Staberinde 18:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I checked the WP:NOTE and WP:BIO and I would dare to say that those people mentioned in this article are not all notable enough to have their own articles. The problem relates to some other New Wave of Estonian Articles aswell. Suva 07:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm confused, why is the requested move the same title?-- Flamgirlant 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are the names of some of the witnesses who have given testimony at the trial or against Aleksander Laak in Canada. Also included are their ages at the time of the trial. I will try to update the list. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 08:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
The article should be renamed/moved since the current title is misleading. Whereas the 1961 trials, described in the first half of the article, relate mostly to the Holocaust, the Tartu trials of 1962 are unrelated to the extermination of Jews. A more appropriate title for the entire article would perhaps be "War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia" where the "Holocaust trial" is a subsection. The current title refers exclusively to the roughly 10,000 Jewish victims of the Vaivara concentration camp system, but it does injustice to the roughly 12,000 non-Jewish victims of Tartu (POWs, political prisoners, etc.). An alternative would be to divide it into two separate articles. -- Vihelik ( talk) 20:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru ( talk) 09:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia →
War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia – Per
WP:COMMONNAME. The current title is logically inconsistent. Soviet Union did not acknowledge that the Holocause occured, nor used the term. See Anton Weiss-Wendt, who refers to the trials as War crimes trials in Estonia in a chapter on the topic:
[1]; Weiss-Wendt wrote perhaps the most extensive account of the Holocaust in Estonia in his recent work Murder Without Hatred. Another example:
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: "Trials in the Baltic Countries: The Estonian trial in March 1961 of Mere, Gerrets and Vix, accused of killing Estonian Jews...". See also the discussion above:
Talk:Holocaust_trials_in_Soviet_Estonia#Misleading_title, which I agree with.
K.e.coffman (
talk) 01:21, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
A fact from War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 15 June 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I would like to hear what is wrong with title Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Please no blanket statements about holocaust denial. Trial was took place in Soviet Estonia and it was about Holocaust. "War Crimes" can include many other things and do not even need to be connected to WW II.-- Staberinde 13:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Petri, I asked what is wrong with title ( Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961), I did not question if it is show trial, if they were actualy guilty, if estonia was occupied then trial took place or anything else unrelated. Also that The word "holocaust" was unknown in 1961 is not an argument as it was also not known in 1939-1945 but we still have article The Holocaust.-- Staberinde 13:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I support the title of Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Other variants are thinkable, such as Holocaust trials of 1961 in Estonian SSR. I oppose narrowing the scope to war crimes; old footage shows undubitably that the primary accusations were those of crimes against humanity instead. Thus, classifying the whole proceedings under Holocaust (as well as genocide) is more appropriate than classifying it under war crimes.
Furthermore, it probably deserves mention that trials like this, as well as other -- less publicised -- NKVD/ KGB executions, were a main factor in there being so little Nazi criminals left to try in post-Soviet Estonia, which Simon Wiesenthal Center regularly points out. Digwuren 14:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This article specifically describes the trials held in Soviet Estonia over crimes committed against Jews during WW2. Martintg 22:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Current title is not adequate, as they were Holocaust trials - and they certainly happened in Soviet Estonia. Perhaps Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, like has been recommended before. That gives all location, incident and time frame. DLX 15:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Petri has provided no serious argumentation aganist renaming. Also attempt to use very poorly conducted google search as agument is ridiculous, as Klamber demonstrated: "Estonian war crimes trials" = 0. Proposed Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia is a lot more accurate.-- Staberinde 16:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Title is more succinct. This effort to keep the title Estonian war crimes trials in preference to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia seems to be an attempt to diminish the crimes of the Holocaust by placing it on the level of a mere War crime, thus it could be construed as a form of Holocaust Denial. -- Martintg 18:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes. The suggested alternative title is much less ambiguous. Current title is logically inconsistent wordplay by a certain user with a vociferous record of denying the 1940-1941/1944-1991 Soviet occupation of Estonia. Inconsistent because, according to such "logic" of Soviet occupation denial, Estonian state did not exist in 1942, Kalevi-Liiva was on Soviet territory, and Gerrets, Mere and other criminals were Soviet citizens, which would make the subject of this article really "Soviet war crimes", not "Estonian war crimes"... Disclaimer: In case anyone suspects me of being the puppeteer of DLX and Klamber, please do not count this vote. Cheers, -- 3 Löwi 08:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The consensus is clear; I moved the article to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia.
Petri Krohn's only nay here is a clear illustration of his rôle as a consistent obstructionist on Estonia-related articles. Digwuren 12:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me, that that you are trying to dismiss the trials and the evidence as "Soviet propaganda". This is a common atitude among Estonians, as evident in the on-line comments to one of the sources: Arvamused artiklile Omakaitse omakohus -- Petri Krohn 14:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
There is clearly no consensus to move. The weaselizing move poll is not valid, and voting is evil. One might have asked me in advance who will vote to expurgate the word "Holocaust" from the title, and my prediction would have been accurate. Wikipedia does not welcome the votes of one-purpose meatpuppets. What about some comments from a neutral observer? Have you listed the page on WP:RM? -- Ghirla -трёп- 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Please note that the current title implicitly follows the same article naming convention as German war crimes, Italian war crimes, Japanese war crimes, Japanese war crimes trials, etc., whereas it would much more logically fit in the same pattern as Auschwitz trial, Belsen Trial, Frankfurt Auschwitz trials, Hamburg Ravensbrück Trials, Mauthausen-Gusen camp trials, etc. -- Klamber 15:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading from somewhere, that detailed conscript of trial's closing/final statement (probably wrong wording, I don't know what is correct) by Gerrets were released to the newspapers before he made that statement. I couldn't find the source, but it would be good to have that in the article. DLX 16:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
From the article Show trial:
“ | The term show trial describes a type of public trial in which the judicial authorities have already determined the guilt of the defendant: the actual trial has as its only goal to present the accusation and the verdict to the public as an impressive example and as a warning. It tends to be retributive rather than correctional justice. Most of the time it involves a 'sin' and a 'planting of evidence'. | ” |
There has not been any proof or references presented to show that this trial would satisfy any of the criteria listed. It has been tagged for sources almost two days. I am removing the claim of show trial. -- Petri Krohn 18:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
As to this diff, the source [Birn, Ruth Bettina (2001), Collaboration with Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe: the Case of the Estonian Security Police. Contemporary European History 10.2, 181-198, available via Cambridge Journals Online with subscription] says nothing about Viik, Wijk Vijk, Wiik etc. Any suggestions? And yes, somebody claimed that he was going to start arbitration. If so, this will certainly go right there. Colchicum 12:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Ghirla, what abuse of {fact} tags? References of earlier version of article included German wikipedia, broken link and forum. I assume that you know such things are not really reliable, especially with controversial stuff like here. As Petri had written article at same day I expected him to have all reliable references at hand and expeted it to be only short formality for him to solve the problem by adding references.-- Staberinde 18:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I checked the WP:NOTE and WP:BIO and I would dare to say that those people mentioned in this article are not all notable enough to have their own articles. The problem relates to some other New Wave of Estonian Articles aswell. Suva 07:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm confused, why is the requested move the same title?-- Flamgirlant 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are the names of some of the witnesses who have given testimony at the trial or against Aleksander Laak in Canada. Also included are their ages at the time of the trial. I will try to update the list. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 08:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
The article should be renamed/moved since the current title is misleading. Whereas the 1961 trials, described in the first half of the article, relate mostly to the Holocaust, the Tartu trials of 1962 are unrelated to the extermination of Jews. A more appropriate title for the entire article would perhaps be "War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia" where the "Holocaust trial" is a subsection. The current title refers exclusively to the roughly 10,000 Jewish victims of the Vaivara concentration camp system, but it does injustice to the roughly 12,000 non-Jewish victims of Tartu (POWs, political prisoners, etc.). An alternative would be to divide it into two separate articles. -- Vihelik ( talk) 20:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru ( talk) 09:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia →
War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia – Per
WP:COMMONNAME. The current title is logically inconsistent. Soviet Union did not acknowledge that the Holocause occured, nor used the term. See Anton Weiss-Wendt, who refers to the trials as War crimes trials in Estonia in a chapter on the topic:
[1]; Weiss-Wendt wrote perhaps the most extensive account of the Holocaust in Estonia in his recent work Murder Without Hatred. Another example:
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: "Trials in the Baltic Countries: The Estonian trial in March 1961 of Mere, Gerrets and Vix, accused of killing Estonian Jews...". See also the discussion above:
Talk:Holocaust_trials_in_Soviet_Estonia#Misleading_title, which I agree with.
K.e.coffman (
talk) 01:21, 6 November 2017 (UTC)