This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Please remove possible living people of non-encyclopedian interest.-- Nerd ( talk)12:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I recommend the page be redesigned. The format of treating the family as a history, going for decade to decade, is confusing. I recommend separate paragraphs about the lives of each person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.173.212 ( talk) 03:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Hitler's wedding seems to be missing; an omission. FreeFlow99 ( talk) 18:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
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This article needs amending to bring the use of the possessive form for singular names into line with the Manual of Style (:poss). Such an edit made earlier today has for some unexplained reason twice been reverted by another editor. As a simple matter of grammatical style where there is an established consensus position, there would need to be a convincing reason (other than one editor's personal preference) for departing from established style. MapReader ( talk) 20:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken ( talk) 20:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)If a name already ends in s or z and would be difficult to pronounce if 's were added to the end, consider rearranging the phrase to avoid the difficulty: Jesus's teachings or the teachings of Jesus.
Excellent. There is a typo in your final edit, but otherwise fine. It is good to see the non-standard grammar now removed from the article. MapReader ( talk) 20:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
This piece is currently rather hard to read because the use of names is inconsistent. It takes careful reading to sort out who is who. Its especially a problem where an individual is referred to by solely surname. If there's not a style guide giving a firm policy I'd suggest, for example Alois Hitler (Sr.), Alois Hitler Jr, because although the elder Alois was apparently never referred to as Senior it would make an easy distinction. But the really important thing is that names should be consistently. Whilst using varying names makes for more interesting prose, in practice in the context of this piece it is really confusing. 212.159.44.170 ( talk) 17:16, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I've found that Familysearch.org allows Hitler's family tree to be extended up to the 1500s by searching Stefan Hiedler (1672-?) and Agnes Capeller (1674-?), and the other branches can be extended too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GS-216.1993 ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The question of whether Otto Hitler was born before or after Adolf is being contested by editor KnightMove. My take is that while a couple of citations -- one a periodical article, and one from a biography published this year in German -- support the contention that Otto was born AFTER Hitler, EVERY OTHER source available says that he was born BEFORE Hitler. That being the case, that Otto was born while Hitler was alive can not be included in the article as an accepted fact, when, in actuality, it is not in any respect widely accepted by the experts (historian, biographers and other scholars). If it DOES become widely accept, then obviously it can, and should, be included, but that is not yet the case, and KnightMove's pushing to include it is inappropriate. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
And now, let's have a look at the source and the content. Here is the link again to Braunau's baptismal register containing Otto Hitler's date of birth. The website is dedicated to collect those baptismal registers, and the page in question is embedded into a full collection of Braunau's baptismal registers. I thnk there is no reason to doubt the authencity of the document. About Ken's claim: "It's OR to look at the birth certificate and interpret it for oneself." - as other people have done so, OR is not even the topic, and usually interpretation should be clear and easy. But I have to concede that this baptismal register provides a number of obstacles to the ordinary English reader of Wikipedia from recognizing the evidence for Otto Hitler's date of birth:
But still, there is no room for reasonable doubt, as I will deconstruct now with screenshots from the entry. Feel free to verify my translations in https://www.dict.cc or any dictionary of your choice.
German | Literal translation | Translation |
---|---|---|
Taufbuch | Baptism-book | baptismal register |
Reihezahl (archaic) | row-number | consecutive number |
Jahr | year | |
Monat, Tag und Stunde der | Month, day and hour of the | |
Geburt | birth | |
Taufe | baptism |
So obviously this is a baptism register of 1892 with a consecutive number for the entries (i.e. the children), and the dates of birth and baptism are entered in the first two columns. Now let's have a look at entry 44:
So entry 44 is a child born on 17 June ("Juni" in German) and baptized on 18 June - as we know from the header, in 1892. But who was the child?
So, the "Name of the baptizand" (header) is Otto. There is an additional note that he has died on "23/6 892", i. e. 23 June 1892. The cross sign means "deceased" as a convention in German - verify in an arbitrary German Wikipedia article such as de:Helmut Kohl or any other source. The omittted 1 of 1892 is just a convention of the time, as it was usual to omit the first 2 digits in the late 20th century. Anyway, it is obvious that this does mean 1892 and not the real year 892 or anything else.
By now this could be any Otto, possibly unrelated to the Hitler family. But of course, there are also columns for the parents:
"Vater" und "Mutter" obviously mean father and mother. Who were they in Otto's case?
This long text in Kurrent is the hardest part. But even if you can't speak German and also can't properly read Kurrent, it is easy to identify the names of the parents: Alois Hitler and Klara Pölzl. Especially the A and K do not look as we are used to, but check for verification in the Kurrent article. You also easily find the names of their ancestors, especially Maria Anna geb. [="geboren", born] Schicklgruber" near the bottom of Alois' entry.
So what does this mean? The document does prove that Alois and Klara Hitler had a son Otto, born 17 June 1892, baptized 18 June 1892, died 23 June 1892. I do not see room for questioning the authenticity or any reasonable doubt about the veracity. -- KnightMove ( talk) 18:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
PS: Of course, you also find Adolf in the same baptismal register (on top of the page). -- KnightMove ( talk) 19:05, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
If its so obvious how come 60 years of Hitler scholership have no picked up on it? Sorry its OR.16:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
As possible final comment I would like to point out that "the acceptance of this new date appears to be personal for you" is not the case. But I have been socialized in a language version of Wikipedia where creation of an encyclopedia plays the main role - not rigorously following rules that are supposed to help this aim, even in instances when this utterly fails and leads to outdated, falsified claims being carved in stone. -- KnightMove ( talk) 21:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I am here from the NOR noticeboard. Having read this page and the contributions there, it is my opinion that both dates of birth should be included, and that the academic source written by Hannes Leidinger and a co-author is absolutely unimpeachably a reliable source in terms of WP:RS, and that the source written by Harald Sandner probably is too. The Reuters source is also valid for the information it contains. I am quite surprised that any doubt has been cast on their validity tbh. The article should make clear that the older date is currently a majority position. Boynamedsue ( talk) 13:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Skews Peas left me messages on my talk page about the dispute. Anyway he told me about Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes#Ethnicity_in_infoboxes which stated: "The Wikipedia community has decided at this RfC not to allow the use of the ethnicity = parameter in infoboxes." (RFC is here Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_127#RfC:_Ethnicity_in_infoboxes)
In my opinion, based on the RFC in which editors decided not to include an ethnicity field, it's justified to remove the ethnicity field from the infobox because it does not work anymore. User:Beyond My Ken, do you feel there should be an exception made in this case?
Ethnicity may be discussed in the article body.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 20:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Please remove possible living people of non-encyclopedian interest.-- Nerd ( talk)12:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I recommend the page be redesigned. The format of treating the family as a history, going for decade to decade, is confusing. I recommend separate paragraphs about the lives of each person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.173.212 ( talk) 03:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Hitler's wedding seems to be missing; an omission. FreeFlow99 ( talk) 18:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
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This article needs amending to bring the use of the possessive form for singular names into line with the Manual of Style (:poss). Such an edit made earlier today has for some unexplained reason twice been reverted by another editor. As a simple matter of grammatical style where there is an established consensus position, there would need to be a convincing reason (other than one editor's personal preference) for departing from established style. MapReader ( talk) 20:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken ( talk) 20:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)If a name already ends in s or z and would be difficult to pronounce if 's were added to the end, consider rearranging the phrase to avoid the difficulty: Jesus's teachings or the teachings of Jesus.
Excellent. There is a typo in your final edit, but otherwise fine. It is good to see the non-standard grammar now removed from the article. MapReader ( talk) 20:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
This piece is currently rather hard to read because the use of names is inconsistent. It takes careful reading to sort out who is who. Its especially a problem where an individual is referred to by solely surname. If there's not a style guide giving a firm policy I'd suggest, for example Alois Hitler (Sr.), Alois Hitler Jr, because although the elder Alois was apparently never referred to as Senior it would make an easy distinction. But the really important thing is that names should be consistently. Whilst using varying names makes for more interesting prose, in practice in the context of this piece it is really confusing. 212.159.44.170 ( talk) 17:16, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I've found that Familysearch.org allows Hitler's family tree to be extended up to the 1500s by searching Stefan Hiedler (1672-?) and Agnes Capeller (1674-?), and the other branches can be extended too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GS-216.1993 ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The question of whether Otto Hitler was born before or after Adolf is being contested by editor KnightMove. My take is that while a couple of citations -- one a periodical article, and one from a biography published this year in German -- support the contention that Otto was born AFTER Hitler, EVERY OTHER source available says that he was born BEFORE Hitler. That being the case, that Otto was born while Hitler was alive can not be included in the article as an accepted fact, when, in actuality, it is not in any respect widely accepted by the experts (historian, biographers and other scholars). If it DOES become widely accept, then obviously it can, and should, be included, but that is not yet the case, and KnightMove's pushing to include it is inappropriate. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
And now, let's have a look at the source and the content. Here is the link again to Braunau's baptismal register containing Otto Hitler's date of birth. The website is dedicated to collect those baptismal registers, and the page in question is embedded into a full collection of Braunau's baptismal registers. I thnk there is no reason to doubt the authencity of the document. About Ken's claim: "It's OR to look at the birth certificate and interpret it for oneself." - as other people have done so, OR is not even the topic, and usually interpretation should be clear and easy. But I have to concede that this baptismal register provides a number of obstacles to the ordinary English reader of Wikipedia from recognizing the evidence for Otto Hitler's date of birth:
But still, there is no room for reasonable doubt, as I will deconstruct now with screenshots from the entry. Feel free to verify my translations in https://www.dict.cc or any dictionary of your choice.
German | Literal translation | Translation |
---|---|---|
Taufbuch | Baptism-book | baptismal register |
Reihezahl (archaic) | row-number | consecutive number |
Jahr | year | |
Monat, Tag und Stunde der | Month, day and hour of the | |
Geburt | birth | |
Taufe | baptism |
So obviously this is a baptism register of 1892 with a consecutive number for the entries (i.e. the children), and the dates of birth and baptism are entered in the first two columns. Now let's have a look at entry 44:
So entry 44 is a child born on 17 June ("Juni" in German) and baptized on 18 June - as we know from the header, in 1892. But who was the child?
So, the "Name of the baptizand" (header) is Otto. There is an additional note that he has died on "23/6 892", i. e. 23 June 1892. The cross sign means "deceased" as a convention in German - verify in an arbitrary German Wikipedia article such as de:Helmut Kohl or any other source. The omittted 1 of 1892 is just a convention of the time, as it was usual to omit the first 2 digits in the late 20th century. Anyway, it is obvious that this does mean 1892 and not the real year 892 or anything else.
By now this could be any Otto, possibly unrelated to the Hitler family. But of course, there are also columns for the parents:
"Vater" und "Mutter" obviously mean father and mother. Who were they in Otto's case?
This long text in Kurrent is the hardest part. But even if you can't speak German and also can't properly read Kurrent, it is easy to identify the names of the parents: Alois Hitler and Klara Pölzl. Especially the A and K do not look as we are used to, but check for verification in the Kurrent article. You also easily find the names of their ancestors, especially Maria Anna geb. [="geboren", born] Schicklgruber" near the bottom of Alois' entry.
So what does this mean? The document does prove that Alois and Klara Hitler had a son Otto, born 17 June 1892, baptized 18 June 1892, died 23 June 1892. I do not see room for questioning the authenticity or any reasonable doubt about the veracity. -- KnightMove ( talk) 18:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
PS: Of course, you also find Adolf in the same baptismal register (on top of the page). -- KnightMove ( talk) 19:05, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
If its so obvious how come 60 years of Hitler scholership have no picked up on it? Sorry its OR.16:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
As possible final comment I would like to point out that "the acceptance of this new date appears to be personal for you" is not the case. But I have been socialized in a language version of Wikipedia where creation of an encyclopedia plays the main role - not rigorously following rules that are supposed to help this aim, even in instances when this utterly fails and leads to outdated, falsified claims being carved in stone. -- KnightMove ( talk) 21:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I am here from the NOR noticeboard. Having read this page and the contributions there, it is my opinion that both dates of birth should be included, and that the academic source written by Hannes Leidinger and a co-author is absolutely unimpeachably a reliable source in terms of WP:RS, and that the source written by Harald Sandner probably is too. The Reuters source is also valid for the information it contains. I am quite surprised that any doubt has been cast on their validity tbh. The article should make clear that the older date is currently a majority position. Boynamedsue ( talk) 13:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Skews Peas left me messages on my talk page about the dispute. Anyway he told me about Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes#Ethnicity_in_infoboxes which stated: "The Wikipedia community has decided at this RfC not to allow the use of the ethnicity = parameter in infoboxes." (RFC is here Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_127#RfC:_Ethnicity_in_infoboxes)
In my opinion, based on the RFC in which editors decided not to include an ethnicity field, it's justified to remove the ethnicity field from the infobox because it does not work anymore. User:Beyond My Ken, do you feel there should be an exception made in this case?
Ethnicity may be discussed in the article body.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 20:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC)