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This section needs to adopt the accepted periodisation into Early Dynastic I, II and III, and explain the differences and developments over these periods. For example, walled cities appear to have developed only towards the end of the Early Dynastic II period, with the construction of the walls of Uruk - attributed to Enmerkar.
John D. Croft 22:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
User Sumerophile is living up to his reputation for imposing his own idiosyncracies on articles over the guidelines and other editors... There are several problems with his version but he is resisting my attempts to correct them:
1) The standard guideline on Wikipedia is to bypass redirects and link directly to the articles, not to redirects of alternate spellings. If you feel the Oxford spellings are the only proper ones, you can propose moves on the relevant pages. Otherwise, the only way according to guidelines to make those spellings show up here is to use a pipe. If you don't know what "bypass" and "pipe" means I will try to find the relevant guidelines for you and post links to them.
2) Adding a bunch of pictures to sections that consist only of a "see main article" totally messes up the appearance of the article as well as the edit links, it becomes difficult to hunt for the appropriate edit link. If the sections are to be expanded, try adding the pictures afterwards.
3) I dispute your changes to the Aratta information, this is not the place to fork your POV in contradiction to the Aratta article.
4) What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)? I take it you have reached the conclusion that Aratta is unhistorical, while the Ziusudra epic is historical? (Correct me if I am wrong or assuming too much.) Even if your conclusion is right, we have to neutrally reflect the various opinions in reliable, published sources on all sides, not push our personal conclusions and dismiss those sources that disagree with those conclusions. There is no consensus that Aratta is unhistorical and / or Ziusudra is historical. The evidence for Aratta is just as strong as that of any other country only mentioned in Sumerian texts and maps. Dilmun, etc. are also only known in Sumerian texts and maps, but scholars don't assume it didn't exist, and have felt free to conjecture about its historical location. Same with Aratta. Don't suppress these scholars because you don't agree with them. I myself disagree with several of them but as I understand the neutrality policy, we are supposed to keep out our own opinions as much as possible and faithfully report what all the published opinions are.
Normally whenever changes are disputed, what we do is discuss them on the talkpage and try to work out a compromise or consensus with other concerned editors, so in the meantime I will refrain from further edit warring or reverting until these issues are resolved, hopefully to everyone's satistfaction. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 17:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) I use the spelling I know; Oxford is a good standard source, and it links to the correct article. You can add pipes to that if you wish, rather than calling another editor names.
2) Complete the sections instead of removing pictures.
3-4) Yes, you are assuming too much. Administrator User:Dbachmann can tell you that I know there is no historic evidence for the Sumerian flood allegory. Nor is Aratta as yet attested. You have now edited the article to make the flood allegory historical, and removed mention of Aratta not being attested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumerophile ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Sumerophile ( talk) 18:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) The decision to use Oxford spelling as our standard seems to be unilateral on your part; otherwise the articles themselves would probably be located at those names. (If you want to move them, please propose this on their talkpages first as it could be potentially disruptive to move them without first allowing for discussion or consensus). Bypassing redirects with a direct link to the actual article is so standard here, that we even have robots that will come along and change all the links back to the article names, so pointing them to redirects is futile. Learn how wikipedia works and use a pipe instead of expecting other editors to continually clean up behind you.
2) As I mentioned, adding the pics BEFORE the sections are expanded creates issues with the page and the edit links; but you did not address this matter in your reply other than to obstinately say "my way os right". I am curious to know what other editors might think about this matter.
3) Aratta is attested in Sumerian texts and maps, just like Dilmun is. Many prominent scholars have speculated on the historical location of both of these. Why suppress these scholars in the case of Aratta because of your personal theory? And again, I ask (to which you did not answer): "What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)?" Please help me understand why you object to this. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 18:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Yours, I didn't link the king list to the Deluge (mythology). Sumerophile ( talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) There is no standard, but Oxford is a reputable reference, and just like US spelling, that's the spelling I know. Add pipes to my spelling if you wish.
2) You could add material youself, rather than complaining that there's something relevant there.
3) Yep, we know the name Aratta from Sumerian legend, and people speculate about what might be meant by it. The existence of Dilmun by contrast is attested by a great many records, seals and other archaeological artifacts. Stating that Aratta is as yet unattested is factual.
Sumerophile ( talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Just because there's more evidence to suggest one does not negate the evidence for the other. Although a city in the southeast is attested to in many records, we don't know that settlement or region is dilmun, even if it uses the same name. Look at how much the Babylonians changed the meaning of Sumerian names, for example. There's no reason to negate theories about Aratta if you're going to speculate about Dilmun.It seems, Sumerophile, that your goal is often to change for the sake of making it the way you want it.
NJMauthor (
talk) 23:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Who said evidence suggesting one thing negates anything else? I'm not even speculating about Dilmun - where is this comming from?? At least it's existance is attested, and what does "Babylonians changing the meaning of Sumerian words" have to do with it's existance, or location for that matter?
My "goal" is use facts, not speculation, which yes is the way it should be. WP:RS
Sumerophile ( talk) 23:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Aratta is mentioned in Myth. Dilmun is attested through archaeological evidence: records, seals etc, which I mentioned above. "Aratta is as yet not attested through archaeological evidence".
The Akkadian empire should be summed up like the rest of the sections. A section should not be made just to have a redirect. This is part of Sumerian history. The table is to have information available until the narrative gets written. And it puts the pictures in place, which you've been complaining about. Sumerophile ( talk) 00:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not about the location of Dilmun. If you want to start arguing Dilmun, take it to the Dilmun page. Sumerophile ( talk) 01:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Nor is this the place for Aratta agendas. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It appears that your arguement for archaeological evidence for Dilmun is also an agenda, being as there is none. NJMauthor ( talk) 06:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
You are creating arguments, Til Eulenspiegel. This is neither the Dilmun nor the Aratta article. Sumerophile ( talk) 18:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Then remove data related to Aratta AND Dilmun. NJMauthor ( talk) 00:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I didn't put them there; they were there before me. What I did was to give them NPOV wording, especially the pro-Ararat-theory Aratta:
Dilmun:
Aratta:
It's no assertion at all: There simply isn't any archaeological evidence at this point to attest Aratta's existance. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The original scholar to identify Aratta and Urartu was, guess who, yes, that's right, none other than Samuel Noah Kramer himself, the eminent authority who first translated Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta in his 1952 monograph. In his stating that "Aratta" is the Sumerian equivalent of "Urartu", he was only the first of MANY authors (Armenian or otherwise) to do so.
If you actually bother to look up scholarly literature on the subject of Aratta, all you will find is speculations about its actual geographic location based on the actual geographic clues given in the epics. We have yet to see even ONE source backing up User:Sumerophile's OR assertion.
However, with an arrogance I have never seen here in 3 years of editing, Sumerophile will not admit Prof. Kramer's referenced view into this article, and insists on substituting his own unreferenced view in its place, refusing to cite it and even removing standard requests for cites. User Sumerophile, our articles are not supposed to contain our own personal opinions, they are supposed to contain references reflecting the same published opinions that anyone researching would find in the scholarly literature - EVEN IF YOU DO NOT 'LIKE' THEM. That's usually about the first thing one learns from editing Wikipedia for any length of time, but you still just do not seem to get it. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 02:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Kramer really say that? Apparently this has this not been cited anywhere, while some very off-topic sources have been cited instead. And the next step of equating
Urartu with
Ararat, or the Biblical
Mountains of Ararat for that matter, is also speculation, I should point out.
You are exactly right, location is all speculation.
Your persistant and repeated name-calling of editors who question your sources is uncivil. WP:Civility. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Urartu was centered on lake Van in Anatolia, not Iran. Subsequent to this early translation, and his Urartu speculation, Kramer himself has since speculated Iran. And speculation it is.
Sumerophile ( talk) 20:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
You stated above, that Kramer, in his early translation of the Enmerkar myth, said that Aratta is the Sumerian equivalent of Urartu, which was in Anatolia. I have not read this translation, and am taking your word for it. (My reference for translations of Sumerian materials is Oxford, which I highly recommend to anyone.) Sumerophile ( talk) 21:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Selecting speculations to ostensibly "verify" opinions is not how citation works. And neither is placing citation tags on any NPOV that might chip away at your views.
And yes I know, 2 millenia later, the Urartu extended an empire as far east as Lake Urmia.
Sumerophile ( talk) 21:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I was not looking for a link to the Aratta myth; what I am asking for is just one reliable cite that specifically says Armenia lacks the "minerals" (eg lapis lazuli or "Armenian stone") mentioned in the Aratta myth. I have found plenty of sources that contradict you on that very point, but I have been patiently asking for just one that supports you. The statement that needs a citation, is the one in the article. If you cannot cite this dubious claim to any kind of source, it will soon again be removed from the article, per WP:V. Repeatedly re-adding the same OR claim without citations every time it is removed, will not help anything at all in the long run. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This sentence has been there for over a year, with an (unsourced) Ararat-location slant. When someone NPOV's the sentence, and you then add citation tags the words that disclaim the Ararat theory (based on the only source we have - the myth itself), that is pushing an Ararat theory POV, and POV it is because there is no reliable source for it. Sumerophile ( talk) 20:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the Aratta article is full of agenda with unreliable sources. This footnote was even fine with you until it's wording got NPOVed. The source for information about Aratta is the myth; there is no other evidence even for its existance, much less a location on Ararat. Sumerophile ( talk) 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
'Demons in my head' would explain the above discussion, and what you've edited on the Aratta page? WP:Civility WP:Fringe Sumerophile ( talk) 22:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, okay, calm down you two! I admit that Til Eulenspiegel asked me to have a look. However, after five minutes of trying to figure out what the problem is here the one item that stands out is that the two of you are at each other's throats. I don't know who is right her, but I suggest both of you step back, relax & maybe work somewhere else on Wikipedia while the RfC on this article is discussed. And please note: an RfC is not a punishment on anyone, it is an attempt to bring in an uninvolved (& hopefully objective) editor to evaluate the conflicting claims & offer some comments. Once these opinions are presented, I expect both of you will then consider them in a level-headed & calm manner. -- llywrch ( talk) 22:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the Aratta footnote is listed twice. The first footnote should be a different footnote which was also removed at some point.
Sumerophile ( talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1.-2. You have provided no WP:RSs for your assertions. If there were archaeological evidence, or Aratta minerals in the Armenian Highland, you would be able to show it, if it existed, but you have not.
3. The above discussion, the discussion on the ANE project talk page [3], your edits of the Aratta article, and your selection of where to add citation tags on this page. You have also confused Kramer's statements in your citations. You do not need to throw vitriol and insult here.
Sumerophile ( talk) 17:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
No you are trying to remove a statement that was NPOVed. If you wish to make changes, such as removing the disclaimer for Ararat [4], which is in the myth - the only source for Ararat at this point, you need to provide evidence for it. Sumerophile ( talk) 18:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I want to say a few of things to this -
Somebody can just cynically citation-tag every word in something they don't like, and disrupt editing - at what point does common sense come in?
Also, it is a simple matter to cite the presence of something, like archaeological facts, but nobody writes about the absence of things for easy quotation, people write about their actual ongoing projects. The onus is really on the person asserting the presence of something to show it's actually there. This sounds silly, but we have POVs that want myths to be real - this seems to happen frequently in the Ancient Near East articles. How would you cite, for instance, that Cinderella is not known to be a real person?
Sumerophile ( talk) 01:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
What do you do when someone claims, say, that Cinderella is from Ottumwa Iowa and then asks you to disprove it. Sumerophile ( talk) 16:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Due to the bickering over one small part of this article, the passages mentioning Aratta have gotten mangled. I removed one footnote that discusses the existence of Aratta, which not only duplicates material appearing later in this article but links to an unrelated passage at the beginning! (Since it's possible that there was a citation here that was later lost, I put a "fact" tag as a clue to a future editor.) Likewise, the section which mentions Aratta -- which consists of about two or three sentences in this entire article & has been viciously fought over by both of you -- needed its references matched to the proper statements. Blindly reverting other editors is not going to make this article better! -- llywrch ( talk) 19:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Sumerophile, did you read our policy on WP:SYNT? What we will need is a published author who has specifically written something like "Urartu is a poor match for Aratta, because it lacks the materials mentioned in the myth". If anyone has ever published such a statement before, it can be used. If no one has ever published such a statement before, we, by policy, cannot be the first to make this argument, because it is Original Research. Is that simple enough? Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think
WP:Synth is what is going on in the
Aratta article.
Sumerophile (
talk) 01:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The sources given in this article are reliable and relevant and there is no synthesis going on here.
The Aratta article is still full of synthesis. You also changed the Lapis armenus article [5] to accord with your synthesis, when no archaeologist would consider it synonymous with Lapis lazuli.
Sumerophile ( talk) 16:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Now that someone has introduced Georges Roux, Ancient Iraq to this article, would you both look at note 18 on page 116. In case you don't have a copy of this work (accepted by many as being an accurate account of the mainstream consensus on Mesopotamian history), it offers a number of identifications for Aratta: "located near lake Urmiah by E. I. Gordon, Bi. Or., XVII (1960), p. 132, n. 63; near Kerman, in central Iran, by V. Madjizadeh, JNES, XXXV (1976), p. 107; around Shahr-i-Sokhta, in eastern Iran, by J.F. Hansman, JNES, XXXVII (1978), pp. 331-6." In other words, Aratta is considered to have existed. Further, in his The Sumerians, Kramer notes that Aratta appears in 4 of the 5 most important epic poems (p. 37). Add the information to the article, & move to working on another part of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 01:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just looked over the disputed text again. There is no evidence for the statement "is known only from myth." The footnote (to the electronic corpus, which I love) only shows that it is present in ancient texts, not that it is absent from science. Unless someone can provide a better source soon, I will remove that statement. Msalt ( talk) 00:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, to be technical, this is what I've been asserting about Prof. Kramer, and what you keep inexplicably removing from the article (my version of the 'footnote'):
Note the presence of RS and lack of OR in my suggested wording - which is continually reverted in favor of a version where OR is present and RS is lacking. So then what else can I do? Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 03:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on this?
1) the dispute over any modern locations that may or may not be identified with Aratta should stay in the footnote rather than the main text;
2) I removed the word "only", which Sumerophile had removed before. I think this should be a good starting point for resolving this dispute. Sumerophile, what do you think? Others? Msalt ( talk) 18:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Following is the WIkipedia policy definition of "Original synthesis":
The ongoing content dispute has now turned into a full fledged edit war. I submit that the two users involved hammer it out here as the effect on the article is wholly disruptive. Strongly recommend consulting WP:3O or WP:RFM to help reach a consensus between the editors. Wisdom89 ( T / C) 22:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
A question for Sumerophile. When you refer simply to "Oxford" what book do you mean? the article currently refers to a book published by Oxford University Press entitled "Egypt, Greece and Rome". It's an important question because books from that publisher are definitely within the category of reliable sources. But full references are always needed. Itsmejudith ( talk) 22:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed that the sections on Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak seem to have got out of chronological sequence, after being moved around quite a lot. Lugal-Zage-Si followed directly on Urukagina of Lagash, as the text correctly indicates, whereas Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak came before Lagash and were right after Enshakushanna (2nd Uruk), also as the text indicates. Could an admin please restore those three sections to before Lagash? Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 03:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This article has been on full protection for two months, but given the total lack of cooperative spirit among editors that led to its being locked, I do not think it would be wise to unlock it any time soon. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 11:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This page was blocked on March 5 to end an edit war between two editors. The editors bickered a little on talk for the next two days, and now in four months there has been virtually no edits to the talk page, and no discussion whatsoever. WP:edit war says page protection is useful "when there is reason to believe that the involved parties will take the opportunity to resolve the conflict. Blocks are preferred when there is evidence that a user cannot or will not moderate their behavior, often demonstrated by an inflexible demeanor, incivility, or past instances of edit warring and unchanged behavior."
It is clear that protecting this page for months has not resolved any disputes, and its time to use other methods of enforcement to deal with disruptive editing - and again allow other people to contribute useful information to the article after a four-month hiatus. Brando130 ( talk) 19:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed an unsourced claim that the educated in Babylonian society began to reject Babylonian myths. The claim appears to be one that would be very difficult to prove or support. I have no problem with keeping it there if there's any evidence. Til, if you have any, I'm fine with keeping it, but please source it. NJMauthor ( talk) 01:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Whoops! I thought this was the Mesopotamian mythology page. My mistake.
As to the edit you're referring to, it seems like conspiracy theory vandalism and, since it's unsourced, I don't think it belongs here. NJMauthor ( talk) 15:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know you added it. It struck me as Persian Nationalism rearing its ugly head in a wiki article again. It doesn't sound like a valid connection; Medes had priests, Sumerians had priests, therefore there's a connection? NJMauthor ( talk) 19:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Similar lore/astrology? How? That sounds like a conspiracy theory. NJMauthor ( talk) 05:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of groups who believe that ancient cults conspired to continue some sort of religious line throughout various cultures in human history; without knowing who put that bit of information on the page, I assumed it was one of those conspiracy theorists. I meant no offense. Should we remove the material, as there appears to be no valid source? NJMauthor ( talk) 02:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The "Chaldeans" are a non-issue, because the term refers to a Babylonian dynasty or Mesopotamia in general. Obviously the later Babylonians borrowed mythology and knowledge from the Amorite Babylonians, who borrowed it from the Akkadians, who in turn borrowed from the Sumerians.
However, there is no direct connection between the Medes and the Sumerians or the later Babylonians and the Sumerians. Are you referring to the Medes in terms of knowledge obtained by the Persian Empire after Cyrus captured Babylon? Because that would make sense, but was not implied by the piece you inserted into the article.
What you wrote implied that the Medes obtained not Babylonian, but Sumerian technological knowledge and mythology. At that later date any such surviving knowledge had been disseminated beyond the Near East anyway, so it seems a moot point. You might as well add every civilization that existed post-500 BCE to that list. NJMauthor ( talk) 19:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
"In the possibly mythical pre-dynastic period" Does anyone know the intent of this statement? Is the info we have about this time based entirely on myths? Don't we have any hard data regarding pre-dynastic city-states? Logically if there is a dynastic there is a pre and post-dynastic period. Finally, how is this different than the Uruk Period? Nitpyck ( talk) 20:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Re: the following text: The first settlement in southern Mesopotamia was Eridu. The Sumerians claimed that their civilization had been brought, fully formed, to the city of Eridu by their god Enki or by his advisor (or Abgallu from ab=water, gal=big, lu=man), I intend to delete the text in parentheses on an alleged Sumerian word, Abgallu. The author of this statement seems to have conflated the Sumerian abgal with its Akkadian translation, Apkallu, and to further have assumed, incorrectly, that the Sumerian was spelled syllabically, and that one could derive an etymology from such syllables. The Sumerian word, however, is abgal, not abgallu, and it is a reading of a compound logogram spelled with the 2 signs NUN-ME, for which see the standard academically-accepted work on signs and their readings, Rykle Borger (2004), Mesopotamisches Zeichenlexicon, Munster: Ugarit-Verlag, s.v. NUN, no. 143, p. 283. The exact same information, i.e. that abgal is spelled NUN-ME may also be found in another academically-respected work on signs, Rene Labat 1994), Manuel d'Epigraphie Akkadienne, Paris: Librairie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner, S.A., s.v abgal in the index.--Mother of Otherness 03:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mother of Otherness ( talk • contribs)
I modified this, using the extensive list in Andrew George's work, which I included in the footnotes. -Mother of Otherness 07:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mother of Otherness ( talk • contribs)
The graph about Sumerian cities is completely pointless when it is not indicated which colour stands for what.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 17:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I would have thought an article on the history of Sumer, of all places, would NOT perpetrate the common idiotic assumption that people build cities the minute they stop being hunter-gatherers. But no.
"Permanent year-round urban settlement was probably prompted by intensive agricultural practices and the work required in maintaining the irrigation canals, and the surplus food this economy produced allowed the population to settle in one place, rather than follow herds or forage for food."
The first half of this sentence is one of the standard theories about why Sumer urbanised, but the second half is egregious. People in nearby regions had been living in one place year-round for several millennia before the Ubaid period, let alone the Uruk; they'd even been doing it before they started farming. I happen to be reading about the southern Levant at the moment so I'll only cite Ain Mallaha and Jericho, but I'm pretty sure the northern Levant, Anatolia (where several sites offer Jericho and Uruk stiff competition in the "first city" sweepstakes), Assyria, and various parts of Iran all offer further examples.
The thing that makes Sumer distinctive, even great, is precisely the city. If you assume that any year-round settlement (even the isolated Neolithic houses found in some Israeli wadis?) is a city, then studying Sumerian history becomes more or less pointless.
Joe Bernstein joe@sfbooks.com 70.97.20.246 ( talk) 12:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The ancient text opens the historical record. The archaeological record opens with the archaeological evidence. This needs to be corrected in the intro. -- J. D. Redding 01:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The "ancient text" being the Sumerian kinglist does not actually open up the historical record. The copies we have were compiled much later as they go all the way to Damiq-ilushu and Larsa. It is the earliest datable tablets, to the reign of Enmebaragesi, that open up the historical record. As for archaeological evidence and the archaeological record, it covers all of prehistory long before history begins with Enmebaragesi. Til Eulenspiegel / talk/ 02:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I have just been 'chasing down' a personal query on a city/place-name I have not previously encountered - Larak - clearly shown situated on the middle Tigris on the accompanying map. However, when I type in the name "Larak" Wiki takes me to Larsa, which is of course in a quite different location. I am puzzled: could someone please clarify this discrepancy? Geoff Powers ( talk) 19:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
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I posted an edit indicating that the conversation is about that which is recorded, only to see it reverted with the message "“Supposed” is the right word to reflect that they may be mythical". Whether the recorded material is mythical or not is not the issue. The fact is that it is recorded. There is no evidence indicating that it is mythical or not. People 4000 years from now might find it difficult to believe that humans actually used 100 year old combustion technology after having developed quantum technology. They might consider the records of it "mythical", but they would still be records (and also true). The possibility of something being mythical doesn't nullify the fact that it is recorded. If the idea is to make a claim that something is possibly false, then it should be stated clearly. The reason this revert should be due to unsourced material that changes the idea, but in this case, there need be no source. The article and section both clearly indicate that the conversation is about recorded material (Sumerian History and King List). If the idea is to question whether the recorded material is potentially false, then this should be clearly stated, rather than being hidden in verbiage. A much better word to describe the thought would be "potentially mythical". But again, this is conjecture, until it can be proven that either reigns are real, or fake. To say something might be false carries a burden of proof. Of the 2 references provided in the text, there appears to be no evidence substantiating whether the record is true or false. To say that it is "potentially false" is to make an unsupported assumption, thereby slanting the article one way as opposed to another, violating article neutrality, making it seem as though there is no way the length of reigns could be accurate. We do have the record. We do not have proof whether it is true or false. If the proof existed, I am sure the author of the source would be only too happy to inform the world.
What I was doing is called sticking to the facts as sourced. If someone is aware of a source that indicates the truth or falsehood of the accuracy of the list, that is irrelevant in terms of conveying the fact that the King List exists, but I would like to see the evidence, should it exist. If there is no source that can determine whether the information in the King List is accurate, my single word edit should stand. Of the reviews I am aware of for a source ( https://www.librarything.com/work/1090200/reviews/173029788), there was concern that the author took the liberty to partake in speculation. That is what I see when using the words "supposedly mythical" to describe a record. In fact, I would be more likely to accept the usage "supposedly (or 'possibly') mythical lengths of reign", than "their supposed reign lengths". There is much more clarity when stating the issue clearly, but it also provides less cover for conjecture. If the source can't establish the truth or falsehood conclusively, any statements yea, nay, or anything in between are speculation, and could easily be construed as bending articles to suit an agenda, even if that agenda is skepticism. There is room for skepticism, yet the fact that the King List is a record resides well within the confines of the sources in particular, and the article, generally. Invoking skepticism takes neutrality out of the article (and trust away from Wikipedia), and places nothing but question marks in the mind, but every question inferred by the original text is one of doubt that is unsubstantiated. If a reader is unable to resolve a conflict of doubt in their own mind, the idea might be "We can help". In actuality, the doubt being "clarified" in a single direction - out of balance. A reliable source will have researched well enough to make positive statements. "Could be", "might be", "possibly", and yes, "supposed" are not positive. Making statements using the aforementioned words falls outside the domain of what can be called "reliable". It would be an entirely different matter if there were no record. All would be speculation. The potential state of reigns is not known. The actual state of their being documented is fully known. The record "may be mythical", but it is a record.
In view of the above, my edit referring to the actual known state is sourced in context, and the most accurate description by referent to the record. I would like to revert. BRealAlways ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Isn't mythology roughly equivalent to 'pseudoscience', pseudohistory' (fringe history), or 'pseudoarchaeology'? That is basically the same as saying it is a false representation of the truth. That is not to say that anything that is recorded should be stricken from the record, but if one myth is to go, then why not be consistent and eliminate all myths? To eliminate the King List is to pretend it doesn't exist. It does. Those who aren't aware of its existence would be none the wiser after reading WP. I thought the idea was to report on reliable sources (the King List being one) without prejudice. Opening a dialog to its mythical character only means the actual state of its truth is unknown. 75.86.176.155 ( talk) 02:12, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm confused. How do you discuss the usefulness of mythology? BRealAlways ( talk) 11:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
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This section needs to adopt the accepted periodisation into Early Dynastic I, II and III, and explain the differences and developments over these periods. For example, walled cities appear to have developed only towards the end of the Early Dynastic II period, with the construction of the walls of Uruk - attributed to Enmerkar.
John D. Croft 22:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
User Sumerophile is living up to his reputation for imposing his own idiosyncracies on articles over the guidelines and other editors... There are several problems with his version but he is resisting my attempts to correct them:
1) The standard guideline on Wikipedia is to bypass redirects and link directly to the articles, not to redirects of alternate spellings. If you feel the Oxford spellings are the only proper ones, you can propose moves on the relevant pages. Otherwise, the only way according to guidelines to make those spellings show up here is to use a pipe. If you don't know what "bypass" and "pipe" means I will try to find the relevant guidelines for you and post links to them.
2) Adding a bunch of pictures to sections that consist only of a "see main article" totally messes up the appearance of the article as well as the edit links, it becomes difficult to hunt for the appropriate edit link. If the sections are to be expanded, try adding the pictures afterwards.
3) I dispute your changes to the Aratta information, this is not the place to fork your POV in contradiction to the Aratta article.
4) What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)? I take it you have reached the conclusion that Aratta is unhistorical, while the Ziusudra epic is historical? (Correct me if I am wrong or assuming too much.) Even if your conclusion is right, we have to neutrally reflect the various opinions in reliable, published sources on all sides, not push our personal conclusions and dismiss those sources that disagree with those conclusions. There is no consensus that Aratta is unhistorical and / or Ziusudra is historical. The evidence for Aratta is just as strong as that of any other country only mentioned in Sumerian texts and maps. Dilmun, etc. are also only known in Sumerian texts and maps, but scholars don't assume it didn't exist, and have felt free to conjecture about its historical location. Same with Aratta. Don't suppress these scholars because you don't agree with them. I myself disagree with several of them but as I understand the neutrality policy, we are supposed to keep out our own opinions as much as possible and faithfully report what all the published opinions are.
Normally whenever changes are disputed, what we do is discuss them on the talkpage and try to work out a compromise or consensus with other concerned editors, so in the meantime I will refrain from further edit warring or reverting until these issues are resolved, hopefully to everyone's satistfaction. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 17:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) I use the spelling I know; Oxford is a good standard source, and it links to the correct article. You can add pipes to that if you wish, rather than calling another editor names.
2) Complete the sections instead of removing pictures.
3-4) Yes, you are assuming too much. Administrator User:Dbachmann can tell you that I know there is no historic evidence for the Sumerian flood allegory. Nor is Aratta as yet attested. You have now edited the article to make the flood allegory historical, and removed mention of Aratta not being attested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumerophile ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Sumerophile ( talk) 18:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) The decision to use Oxford spelling as our standard seems to be unilateral on your part; otherwise the articles themselves would probably be located at those names. (If you want to move them, please propose this on their talkpages first as it could be potentially disruptive to move them without first allowing for discussion or consensus). Bypassing redirects with a direct link to the actual article is so standard here, that we even have robots that will come along and change all the links back to the article names, so pointing them to redirects is futile. Learn how wikipedia works and use a pipe instead of expecting other editors to continually clean up behind you.
2) As I mentioned, adding the pics BEFORE the sections are expanded creates issues with the page and the edit links; but you did not address this matter in your reply other than to obstinately say "my way os right". I am curious to know what other editors might think about this matter.
3) Aratta is attested in Sumerian texts and maps, just like Dilmun is. Many prominent scholars have speculated on the historical location of both of these. Why suppress these scholars in the case of Aratta because of your personal theory? And again, I ask (to which you did not answer): "What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)?" Please help me understand why you object to this. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 18:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Yours, I didn't link the king list to the Deluge (mythology). Sumerophile ( talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1) There is no standard, but Oxford is a reputable reference, and just like US spelling, that's the spelling I know. Add pipes to my spelling if you wish.
2) You could add material youself, rather than complaining that there's something relevant there.
3) Yep, we know the name Aratta from Sumerian legend, and people speculate about what might be meant by it. The existence of Dilmun by contrast is attested by a great many records, seals and other archaeological artifacts. Stating that Aratta is as yet unattested is factual.
Sumerophile ( talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Just because there's more evidence to suggest one does not negate the evidence for the other. Although a city in the southeast is attested to in many records, we don't know that settlement or region is dilmun, even if it uses the same name. Look at how much the Babylonians changed the meaning of Sumerian names, for example. There's no reason to negate theories about Aratta if you're going to speculate about Dilmun.It seems, Sumerophile, that your goal is often to change for the sake of making it the way you want it.
NJMauthor (
talk) 23:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Who said evidence suggesting one thing negates anything else? I'm not even speculating about Dilmun - where is this comming from?? At least it's existance is attested, and what does "Babylonians changing the meaning of Sumerian words" have to do with it's existance, or location for that matter?
My "goal" is use facts, not speculation, which yes is the way it should be. WP:RS
Sumerophile ( talk) 23:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Aratta is mentioned in Myth. Dilmun is attested through archaeological evidence: records, seals etc, which I mentioned above. "Aratta is as yet not attested through archaeological evidence".
The Akkadian empire should be summed up like the rest of the sections. A section should not be made just to have a redirect. This is part of Sumerian history. The table is to have information available until the narrative gets written. And it puts the pictures in place, which you've been complaining about. Sumerophile ( talk) 00:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not about the location of Dilmun. If you want to start arguing Dilmun, take it to the Dilmun page. Sumerophile ( talk) 01:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Nor is this the place for Aratta agendas. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It appears that your arguement for archaeological evidence for Dilmun is also an agenda, being as there is none. NJMauthor ( talk) 06:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
You are creating arguments, Til Eulenspiegel. This is neither the Dilmun nor the Aratta article. Sumerophile ( talk) 18:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Then remove data related to Aratta AND Dilmun. NJMauthor ( talk) 00:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I didn't put them there; they were there before me. What I did was to give them NPOV wording, especially the pro-Ararat-theory Aratta:
Dilmun:
Aratta:
It's no assertion at all: There simply isn't any archaeological evidence at this point to attest Aratta's existance. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The original scholar to identify Aratta and Urartu was, guess who, yes, that's right, none other than Samuel Noah Kramer himself, the eminent authority who first translated Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta in his 1952 monograph. In his stating that "Aratta" is the Sumerian equivalent of "Urartu", he was only the first of MANY authors (Armenian or otherwise) to do so.
If you actually bother to look up scholarly literature on the subject of Aratta, all you will find is speculations about its actual geographic location based on the actual geographic clues given in the epics. We have yet to see even ONE source backing up User:Sumerophile's OR assertion.
However, with an arrogance I have never seen here in 3 years of editing, Sumerophile will not admit Prof. Kramer's referenced view into this article, and insists on substituting his own unreferenced view in its place, refusing to cite it and even removing standard requests for cites. User Sumerophile, our articles are not supposed to contain our own personal opinions, they are supposed to contain references reflecting the same published opinions that anyone researching would find in the scholarly literature - EVEN IF YOU DO NOT 'LIKE' THEM. That's usually about the first thing one learns from editing Wikipedia for any length of time, but you still just do not seem to get it. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 02:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Kramer really say that? Apparently this has this not been cited anywhere, while some very off-topic sources have been cited instead. And the next step of equating
Urartu with
Ararat, or the Biblical
Mountains of Ararat for that matter, is also speculation, I should point out.
You are exactly right, location is all speculation.
Your persistant and repeated name-calling of editors who question your sources is uncivil. WP:Civility. Sumerophile ( talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Urartu was centered on lake Van in Anatolia, not Iran. Subsequent to this early translation, and his Urartu speculation, Kramer himself has since speculated Iran. And speculation it is.
Sumerophile ( talk) 20:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
You stated above, that Kramer, in his early translation of the Enmerkar myth, said that Aratta is the Sumerian equivalent of Urartu, which was in Anatolia. I have not read this translation, and am taking your word for it. (My reference for translations of Sumerian materials is Oxford, which I highly recommend to anyone.) Sumerophile ( talk) 21:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Selecting speculations to ostensibly "verify" opinions is not how citation works. And neither is placing citation tags on any NPOV that might chip away at your views.
And yes I know, 2 millenia later, the Urartu extended an empire as far east as Lake Urmia.
Sumerophile ( talk) 21:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I was not looking for a link to the Aratta myth; what I am asking for is just one reliable cite that specifically says Armenia lacks the "minerals" (eg lapis lazuli or "Armenian stone") mentioned in the Aratta myth. I have found plenty of sources that contradict you on that very point, but I have been patiently asking for just one that supports you. The statement that needs a citation, is the one in the article. If you cannot cite this dubious claim to any kind of source, it will soon again be removed from the article, per WP:V. Repeatedly re-adding the same OR claim without citations every time it is removed, will not help anything at all in the long run. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This sentence has been there for over a year, with an (unsourced) Ararat-location slant. When someone NPOV's the sentence, and you then add citation tags the words that disclaim the Ararat theory (based on the only source we have - the myth itself), that is pushing an Ararat theory POV, and POV it is because there is no reliable source for it. Sumerophile ( talk) 20:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the Aratta article is full of agenda with unreliable sources. This footnote was even fine with you until it's wording got NPOVed. The source for information about Aratta is the myth; there is no other evidence even for its existance, much less a location on Ararat. Sumerophile ( talk) 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
'Demons in my head' would explain the above discussion, and what you've edited on the Aratta page? WP:Civility WP:Fringe Sumerophile ( talk) 22:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, okay, calm down you two! I admit that Til Eulenspiegel asked me to have a look. However, after five minutes of trying to figure out what the problem is here the one item that stands out is that the two of you are at each other's throats. I don't know who is right her, but I suggest both of you step back, relax & maybe work somewhere else on Wikipedia while the RfC on this article is discussed. And please note: an RfC is not a punishment on anyone, it is an attempt to bring in an uninvolved (& hopefully objective) editor to evaluate the conflicting claims & offer some comments. Once these opinions are presented, I expect both of you will then consider them in a level-headed & calm manner. -- llywrch ( talk) 22:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the Aratta footnote is listed twice. The first footnote should be a different footnote which was also removed at some point.
Sumerophile ( talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1.-2. You have provided no WP:RSs for your assertions. If there were archaeological evidence, or Aratta minerals in the Armenian Highland, you would be able to show it, if it existed, but you have not.
3. The above discussion, the discussion on the ANE project talk page [3], your edits of the Aratta article, and your selection of where to add citation tags on this page. You have also confused Kramer's statements in your citations. You do not need to throw vitriol and insult here.
Sumerophile ( talk) 17:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
No you are trying to remove a statement that was NPOVed. If you wish to make changes, such as removing the disclaimer for Ararat [4], which is in the myth - the only source for Ararat at this point, you need to provide evidence for it. Sumerophile ( talk) 18:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I want to say a few of things to this -
Somebody can just cynically citation-tag every word in something they don't like, and disrupt editing - at what point does common sense come in?
Also, it is a simple matter to cite the presence of something, like archaeological facts, but nobody writes about the absence of things for easy quotation, people write about their actual ongoing projects. The onus is really on the person asserting the presence of something to show it's actually there. This sounds silly, but we have POVs that want myths to be real - this seems to happen frequently in the Ancient Near East articles. How would you cite, for instance, that Cinderella is not known to be a real person?
Sumerophile ( talk) 01:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
What do you do when someone claims, say, that Cinderella is from Ottumwa Iowa and then asks you to disprove it. Sumerophile ( talk) 16:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Due to the bickering over one small part of this article, the passages mentioning Aratta have gotten mangled. I removed one footnote that discusses the existence of Aratta, which not only duplicates material appearing later in this article but links to an unrelated passage at the beginning! (Since it's possible that there was a citation here that was later lost, I put a "fact" tag as a clue to a future editor.) Likewise, the section which mentions Aratta -- which consists of about two or three sentences in this entire article & has been viciously fought over by both of you -- needed its references matched to the proper statements. Blindly reverting other editors is not going to make this article better! -- llywrch ( talk) 19:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Sumerophile, did you read our policy on WP:SYNT? What we will need is a published author who has specifically written something like "Urartu is a poor match for Aratta, because it lacks the materials mentioned in the myth". If anyone has ever published such a statement before, it can be used. If no one has ever published such a statement before, we, by policy, cannot be the first to make this argument, because it is Original Research. Is that simple enough? Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I think
WP:Synth is what is going on in the
Aratta article.
Sumerophile (
talk) 01:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The sources given in this article are reliable and relevant and there is no synthesis going on here.
The Aratta article is still full of synthesis. You also changed the Lapis armenus article [5] to accord with your synthesis, when no archaeologist would consider it synonymous with Lapis lazuli.
Sumerophile ( talk) 16:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Now that someone has introduced Georges Roux, Ancient Iraq to this article, would you both look at note 18 on page 116. In case you don't have a copy of this work (accepted by many as being an accurate account of the mainstream consensus on Mesopotamian history), it offers a number of identifications for Aratta: "located near lake Urmiah by E. I. Gordon, Bi. Or., XVII (1960), p. 132, n. 63; near Kerman, in central Iran, by V. Madjizadeh, JNES, XXXV (1976), p. 107; around Shahr-i-Sokhta, in eastern Iran, by J.F. Hansman, JNES, XXXVII (1978), pp. 331-6." In other words, Aratta is considered to have existed. Further, in his The Sumerians, Kramer notes that Aratta appears in 4 of the 5 most important epic poems (p. 37). Add the information to the article, & move to working on another part of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 01:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just looked over the disputed text again. There is no evidence for the statement "is known only from myth." The footnote (to the electronic corpus, which I love) only shows that it is present in ancient texts, not that it is absent from science. Unless someone can provide a better source soon, I will remove that statement. Msalt ( talk) 00:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, to be technical, this is what I've been asserting about Prof. Kramer, and what you keep inexplicably removing from the article (my version of the 'footnote'):
Note the presence of RS and lack of OR in my suggested wording - which is continually reverted in favor of a version where OR is present and RS is lacking. So then what else can I do? Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 03:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on this?
1) the dispute over any modern locations that may or may not be identified with Aratta should stay in the footnote rather than the main text;
2) I removed the word "only", which Sumerophile had removed before. I think this should be a good starting point for resolving this dispute. Sumerophile, what do you think? Others? Msalt ( talk) 18:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Following is the WIkipedia policy definition of "Original synthesis":
The ongoing content dispute has now turned into a full fledged edit war. I submit that the two users involved hammer it out here as the effect on the article is wholly disruptive. Strongly recommend consulting WP:3O or WP:RFM to help reach a consensus between the editors. Wisdom89 ( T / C) 22:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
A question for Sumerophile. When you refer simply to "Oxford" what book do you mean? the article currently refers to a book published by Oxford University Press entitled "Egypt, Greece and Rome". It's an important question because books from that publisher are definitely within the category of reliable sources. But full references are always needed. Itsmejudith ( talk) 22:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed that the sections on Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak seem to have got out of chronological sequence, after being moved around quite a lot. Lugal-Zage-Si followed directly on Urukagina of Lagash, as the text correctly indicates, whereas Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak came before Lagash and were right after Enshakushanna (2nd Uruk), also as the text indicates. Could an admin please restore those three sections to before Lagash? Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 03:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This article has been on full protection for two months, but given the total lack of cooperative spirit among editors that led to its being locked, I do not think it would be wise to unlock it any time soon. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 11:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This page was blocked on March 5 to end an edit war between two editors. The editors bickered a little on talk for the next two days, and now in four months there has been virtually no edits to the talk page, and no discussion whatsoever. WP:edit war says page protection is useful "when there is reason to believe that the involved parties will take the opportunity to resolve the conflict. Blocks are preferred when there is evidence that a user cannot or will not moderate their behavior, often demonstrated by an inflexible demeanor, incivility, or past instances of edit warring and unchanged behavior."
It is clear that protecting this page for months has not resolved any disputes, and its time to use other methods of enforcement to deal with disruptive editing - and again allow other people to contribute useful information to the article after a four-month hiatus. Brando130 ( talk) 19:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed an unsourced claim that the educated in Babylonian society began to reject Babylonian myths. The claim appears to be one that would be very difficult to prove or support. I have no problem with keeping it there if there's any evidence. Til, if you have any, I'm fine with keeping it, but please source it. NJMauthor ( talk) 01:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Whoops! I thought this was the Mesopotamian mythology page. My mistake.
As to the edit you're referring to, it seems like conspiracy theory vandalism and, since it's unsourced, I don't think it belongs here. NJMauthor ( talk) 15:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know you added it. It struck me as Persian Nationalism rearing its ugly head in a wiki article again. It doesn't sound like a valid connection; Medes had priests, Sumerians had priests, therefore there's a connection? NJMauthor ( talk) 19:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Similar lore/astrology? How? That sounds like a conspiracy theory. NJMauthor ( talk) 05:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of groups who believe that ancient cults conspired to continue some sort of religious line throughout various cultures in human history; without knowing who put that bit of information on the page, I assumed it was one of those conspiracy theorists. I meant no offense. Should we remove the material, as there appears to be no valid source? NJMauthor ( talk) 02:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The "Chaldeans" are a non-issue, because the term refers to a Babylonian dynasty or Mesopotamia in general. Obviously the later Babylonians borrowed mythology and knowledge from the Amorite Babylonians, who borrowed it from the Akkadians, who in turn borrowed from the Sumerians.
However, there is no direct connection between the Medes and the Sumerians or the later Babylonians and the Sumerians. Are you referring to the Medes in terms of knowledge obtained by the Persian Empire after Cyrus captured Babylon? Because that would make sense, but was not implied by the piece you inserted into the article.
What you wrote implied that the Medes obtained not Babylonian, but Sumerian technological knowledge and mythology. At that later date any such surviving knowledge had been disseminated beyond the Near East anyway, so it seems a moot point. You might as well add every civilization that existed post-500 BCE to that list. NJMauthor ( talk) 19:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
"In the possibly mythical pre-dynastic period" Does anyone know the intent of this statement? Is the info we have about this time based entirely on myths? Don't we have any hard data regarding pre-dynastic city-states? Logically if there is a dynastic there is a pre and post-dynastic period. Finally, how is this different than the Uruk Period? Nitpyck ( talk) 20:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Re: the following text: The first settlement in southern Mesopotamia was Eridu. The Sumerians claimed that their civilization had been brought, fully formed, to the city of Eridu by their god Enki or by his advisor (or Abgallu from ab=water, gal=big, lu=man), I intend to delete the text in parentheses on an alleged Sumerian word, Abgallu. The author of this statement seems to have conflated the Sumerian abgal with its Akkadian translation, Apkallu, and to further have assumed, incorrectly, that the Sumerian was spelled syllabically, and that one could derive an etymology from such syllables. The Sumerian word, however, is abgal, not abgallu, and it is a reading of a compound logogram spelled with the 2 signs NUN-ME, for which see the standard academically-accepted work on signs and their readings, Rykle Borger (2004), Mesopotamisches Zeichenlexicon, Munster: Ugarit-Verlag, s.v. NUN, no. 143, p. 283. The exact same information, i.e. that abgal is spelled NUN-ME may also be found in another academically-respected work on signs, Rene Labat 1994), Manuel d'Epigraphie Akkadienne, Paris: Librairie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner, S.A., s.v abgal in the index.--Mother of Otherness 03:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mother of Otherness ( talk • contribs)
I modified this, using the extensive list in Andrew George's work, which I included in the footnotes. -Mother of Otherness 07:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mother of Otherness ( talk • contribs)
The graph about Sumerian cities is completely pointless when it is not indicated which colour stands for what.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 17:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I would have thought an article on the history of Sumer, of all places, would NOT perpetrate the common idiotic assumption that people build cities the minute they stop being hunter-gatherers. But no.
"Permanent year-round urban settlement was probably prompted by intensive agricultural practices and the work required in maintaining the irrigation canals, and the surplus food this economy produced allowed the population to settle in one place, rather than follow herds or forage for food."
The first half of this sentence is one of the standard theories about why Sumer urbanised, but the second half is egregious. People in nearby regions had been living in one place year-round for several millennia before the Ubaid period, let alone the Uruk; they'd even been doing it before they started farming. I happen to be reading about the southern Levant at the moment so I'll only cite Ain Mallaha and Jericho, but I'm pretty sure the northern Levant, Anatolia (where several sites offer Jericho and Uruk stiff competition in the "first city" sweepstakes), Assyria, and various parts of Iran all offer further examples.
The thing that makes Sumer distinctive, even great, is precisely the city. If you assume that any year-round settlement (even the isolated Neolithic houses found in some Israeli wadis?) is a city, then studying Sumerian history becomes more or less pointless.
Joe Bernstein joe@sfbooks.com 70.97.20.246 ( talk) 12:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The ancient text opens the historical record. The archaeological record opens with the archaeological evidence. This needs to be corrected in the intro. -- J. D. Redding 01:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The "ancient text" being the Sumerian kinglist does not actually open up the historical record. The copies we have were compiled much later as they go all the way to Damiq-ilushu and Larsa. It is the earliest datable tablets, to the reign of Enmebaragesi, that open up the historical record. As for archaeological evidence and the archaeological record, it covers all of prehistory long before history begins with Enmebaragesi. Til Eulenspiegel / talk/ 02:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I have just been 'chasing down' a personal query on a city/place-name I have not previously encountered - Larak - clearly shown situated on the middle Tigris on the accompanying map. However, when I type in the name "Larak" Wiki takes me to Larsa, which is of course in a quite different location. I am puzzled: could someone please clarify this discrepancy? Geoff Powers ( talk) 19:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
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I posted an edit indicating that the conversation is about that which is recorded, only to see it reverted with the message "“Supposed” is the right word to reflect that they may be mythical". Whether the recorded material is mythical or not is not the issue. The fact is that it is recorded. There is no evidence indicating that it is mythical or not. People 4000 years from now might find it difficult to believe that humans actually used 100 year old combustion technology after having developed quantum technology. They might consider the records of it "mythical", but they would still be records (and also true). The possibility of something being mythical doesn't nullify the fact that it is recorded. If the idea is to make a claim that something is possibly false, then it should be stated clearly. The reason this revert should be due to unsourced material that changes the idea, but in this case, there need be no source. The article and section both clearly indicate that the conversation is about recorded material (Sumerian History and King List). If the idea is to question whether the recorded material is potentially false, then this should be clearly stated, rather than being hidden in verbiage. A much better word to describe the thought would be "potentially mythical". But again, this is conjecture, until it can be proven that either reigns are real, or fake. To say something might be false carries a burden of proof. Of the 2 references provided in the text, there appears to be no evidence substantiating whether the record is true or false. To say that it is "potentially false" is to make an unsupported assumption, thereby slanting the article one way as opposed to another, violating article neutrality, making it seem as though there is no way the length of reigns could be accurate. We do have the record. We do not have proof whether it is true or false. If the proof existed, I am sure the author of the source would be only too happy to inform the world.
What I was doing is called sticking to the facts as sourced. If someone is aware of a source that indicates the truth or falsehood of the accuracy of the list, that is irrelevant in terms of conveying the fact that the King List exists, but I would like to see the evidence, should it exist. If there is no source that can determine whether the information in the King List is accurate, my single word edit should stand. Of the reviews I am aware of for a source ( https://www.librarything.com/work/1090200/reviews/173029788), there was concern that the author took the liberty to partake in speculation. That is what I see when using the words "supposedly mythical" to describe a record. In fact, I would be more likely to accept the usage "supposedly (or 'possibly') mythical lengths of reign", than "their supposed reign lengths". There is much more clarity when stating the issue clearly, but it also provides less cover for conjecture. If the source can't establish the truth or falsehood conclusively, any statements yea, nay, or anything in between are speculation, and could easily be construed as bending articles to suit an agenda, even if that agenda is skepticism. There is room for skepticism, yet the fact that the King List is a record resides well within the confines of the sources in particular, and the article, generally. Invoking skepticism takes neutrality out of the article (and trust away from Wikipedia), and places nothing but question marks in the mind, but every question inferred by the original text is one of doubt that is unsubstantiated. If a reader is unable to resolve a conflict of doubt in their own mind, the idea might be "We can help". In actuality, the doubt being "clarified" in a single direction - out of balance. A reliable source will have researched well enough to make positive statements. "Could be", "might be", "possibly", and yes, "supposed" are not positive. Making statements using the aforementioned words falls outside the domain of what can be called "reliable". It would be an entirely different matter if there were no record. All would be speculation. The potential state of reigns is not known. The actual state of their being documented is fully known. The record "may be mythical", but it is a record.
In view of the above, my edit referring to the actual known state is sourced in context, and the most accurate description by referent to the record. I would like to revert. BRealAlways ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Isn't mythology roughly equivalent to 'pseudoscience', pseudohistory' (fringe history), or 'pseudoarchaeology'? That is basically the same as saying it is a false representation of the truth. That is not to say that anything that is recorded should be stricken from the record, but if one myth is to go, then why not be consistent and eliminate all myths? To eliminate the King List is to pretend it doesn't exist. It does. Those who aren't aware of its existence would be none the wiser after reading WP. I thought the idea was to report on reliable sources (the King List being one) without prejudice. Opening a dialog to its mythical character only means the actual state of its truth is unknown. 75.86.176.155 ( talk) 02:12, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm confused. How do you discuss the usefulness of mythology? BRealAlways ( talk) 11:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)