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Bulgaria's experience in WW2 is missing.
Try breaking this into a series, like History of Germany. -- Jia ng 16:38, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I know this is very arrogant of me, but I'm afraid the old article was such a horrible mess that I couldn't stand looking at it any more. It was much easier to write a new one than try to rescue the old one. It's also a very educational process. Adam 15:46, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I presume the anonymous editor who has been making changes to this article today is a Bulgarian. My message to him or her is:
Adam 06:27, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Anonymous user, feel free to add back your contributions, just be careful not to edit over any corrections a person might've made while you were writing. I don't know why Adam objects to having more detail in the article; Wikipedia policy is generally very inclusive when it comes to detail. But please don't vandalize this talk page. Everyking 00:42, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I guess Adam has some problems with certain facts of the history of the medieval world. Probably he should educate himself better.
I didn`t appreciate that he deleted my contribution to the common knowlegde, especially having in mind that I sacrified my free time to Wikipedia. I never expected this response.
P.S. My name is Kurt Oberholtzer. I am not Anonyous anymore. Greetings!
Adam, please check in the refference when was the Romanian nation created (hint - after 18th century) and then think twice before naming the Vlachs in 13th cetury Romanians. I shall gladly give you more lessons in medieval history.
Mr Oberholtzer I will be happy to discuss Bulgarian, Romanian or any other history with you when you drop this sneering and abusive tone towards other editors. Adam 03:03, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Everyking, the Protobulgarians believed in only one god, Tangra. Evidently, you confuse them with the Slavs, who were indeed polytheists. 213.240.199.186
i'm asking all this because i am a romanian and i have a different view on this info. with all due respect for the bulgars Criztu 22:16, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are good reasons to link the Asens to the Ashina dynasty whose scions were called to rule a number of countries in Asia and Eastern Europe. -- Vladko 05:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The title is Tsar. That the word which Bulgarians used for their rulers at that time. I think Dux and Rex are inappropriate because they come from Roman empire. Basileus comes from Byzantine empire. Tsars are somehow equivalent to medieval Kings but has no dependency from church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.44.103.107 ( talk) 10:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
As the edit template says:
Doesn't this article need some decent references? Many encyclopedias are hit-or-miss for accuracy. Personal knowledge can't be cited; it can't be checked by others, and sounds like just plain POV. I know it's hard, but I really think we need people to go back and read some respected references, list them, and adjust the article to fit better with those references. That should avoid some of these repeated reverts. -- A D Monroe III 12:53, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You had better be prepared to back that allegation up with some evidence. Adam 01:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't need to lift a finger. The article itself is the evidence. Decius 01:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Your refusal to justify your slanders is noted. Adam 03:24, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Propaganda is a type of message presentation aimed at serving a particular agenda. This article does indeed fit the definition of propaganda. A sizable part of it is written by Bulgarians, so it does in fact fit the definition of Bulgarian propaganda (cheap Bulgarian propaganda, because it is transparent). It embodies fictional elements, so it can be classed as Fiction. Decius 03:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It depends on what I was referring to when I said "it": "it" meaning the article, or "it" meaning the propaganda: "A sizable part of it (the propaganda) was written by Bulgarians, so it (the propaganda) does indeed fit the definition of Bulgarian propaganda." Propaganda applies not only to what was written, but also to what was purposefully erased. Decius 04:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For anybody that wants to read more, the question of Peter Asen's Vlach ethnicity is debated here: Talk: Kingdom of Bulgarians and Vlachs. Also, discussed here: Asen dynasty and here Kaloyan/ Talk:Kaloyan. Decius 05:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So is that what this is all about? One minor edit on whether some obscure character from the Middle Ages was or was not part-Vlach is hardly worth all the abuse you have heaped on the author/s of this article. I don't care whether Peter Asen was a Vlach or a Hottentot, and I doubt anyone else does either.
I don't give a damn what you care about, or who originally wrote the article, and it's about more than that. This is not about you, it is about the historical neutrality of the article, and it is about the history of Bulgaria. If someone engages to write such an article, they must be concerned with all the aspects that come under consideration. Not just part-Vlach, he may have been all Vlach going back a generation and partly Vlach going back more. Decius 07:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
16:44, the 16th of December, 2004, user:Criztu (a Romanian contributor) changes this sentence: "In 1185, a leading Vlach noble, Peter Asen, led a Bulgarian revolt against Byzantine rule..." to "In 1185, a leader of the Vlachs, Peter Asen, led a revolt against Byzantine rule...", and Criztu also changes the Ivan to John (Ioan). 17:23, 16th of December, 2004, user:VMORO (a Bulgarian contributor) is deeply upset by this and writes in his edit-summary "If you don't leave this article alone now, there will be 'sudden' burts of vandalism against Romanian articles, this is final warning", and Vmoro changes the sentence: "In 1185, a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble, Peter Asen, led a revolt...". On the 31st of December, 2004, at 15:36, an "anonymous" contributor (82.119.76.36) then finally got up the courage and wrote "In 1185, a leading noble of mixed, Cuman-Bulgarian origin, led a revolt..." and any mention of the Vlach element of his ethnicity suddenly and mysteriously disappears from the article, no reason given by this "anonymous" contributor. Of course, this violates NPOV standards, because actual historians (and not just anonymous Wikipedia contributors) and scholars affirm (though of course, others disagree, so it is a disputed issue and both sides must be represented) the Vlach ethnicity of Peter Asen, and of his Dynasty. Decius 07:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I wrote the original sentence, saying that Asen was a Vlach, so you owe me an apology for a start. Secondly, petty Balkan nationalists of all kinds should all go and take a cold shower and stop threatening each other. Adam 07:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't owe you an apology because I never accused you personally of anything, it was you who took my criticism of the article personally: it was not a criticism of the writing style, it was a criticism of the neutrality, of the facts, and was aimed at contributors such as Vmoro (but I wasn't sure who else was involved, or exactly who wrote what) and others like him. Decius 07:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You wrote: "The parties responsible for this article have no desire to cite references, because they have no desire to write History. They are writing Fiction (cheap Pulp magazine fiction) and Propaganda (cheap Bulgarian propaganda)." As the party principally responsible for this article, and as a historian, I am entitled to object to that kind of slander, particularly when it turns out your objections are in fact only about one minor point. Adam 07:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, you are right about that, and an Apology is due: so I apologize about implying that you were involved in the biased edits. I'll even erase that comment. Decius 07:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Whatever Vmoro or any other Wikipedia contributor has to say about the Vlachness of Peter Asen is irrelevant, because Vmoro is not in a position to supercede the statements and views of actual historians on the matter. The Vlachness of Peter Asen and his dynasty is disputed, yes, but it must be mentioned if his ethnicity is to be discussed at all. Decius 07:31, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Adam wrote: "a leading Vlach noble"; for some reason, Criztu changed it "a leader of the Vlachs"; then Vmoro changed it on Dec 16th to "a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble"; then Anonymous changed it on Dec 31st to: "a leading noble of mixed, Cuman-Bulgarian origin"; it is obvious that Anonymous was Vmoro, who became Anonymous so he wouldn't contradict himself, having earlier himself wrote "a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble". And it is obvious that this is only one Point Of View. Decius 07:53, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This article isn't getting better in this mode.
If we only use personal knowledge to write a article, it seems like POV to others. Worse, any question of the source seems like a personal attack. Responses to personal attacks seem like personal attacks, and so on. There's no resolution this way.
Instead, if we find and read sources, fix the article to align with the sources, and note those sources, then it doesn't look like POV. If someone questions the references, it doesn't seem personal, nor do responses.
Of course, this is harder to do, but this is the way Wikipedia works, right? Or does someone have a different idea?
-- A D Monroe III 16:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not happy with the history of Bulgaria starting with the Proto-Bulgarians. There were other nations in those lands long before them whom Bulgarians rightly consider their forefathers, like the Thracians.-- Vladko 06:24, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Bulgaria is the nation state of the Bulgarians. Its history begins with the arrival of the Bulgarians in that territory. What happened there previously is not really relevant. If the Bulgarians consider the Thracians to be their ancestors they are wrong. Adam 06:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Possibly, that is not the same thing as saying that the Thracians were the "forefathers" of the Bulgarians. Between the time the Thracians controlled the area and the time the Bulgars arrived it had been settled successively by the Greeks, Goths, Avars and Slavs. If there were many Thracians left I'd be very surprised. Most of the population were Slavs. Adam 12:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if any groups of Thracians speaking the Thracian language were still around in Thrace when the Slavs settled in Thrace, but I do know that it has been proven that genetic-continuity is the norm in the Balkans, so plenty of Thracian genes are present in Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, and so on, and these people can rightly consider Thracians as among their forefathers (among other forefathers, etc.). It seems that genetic samples indicate that Balkan (and other European) peoples have more pre-Indo-European genes than Indo-European, so that indicates continuity despite the comings and goings of ethnic tribes over the millenia. Decius 18:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Didn't find those websites, but I was right about Procopius. Also found a map of early Slav settlements in Thrace. Decius 20:39, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
First of all , the article is good enough for a non-Balkan folks to become familiar with Bulgarian History - however most of the facts in the article are just lies created by historians . I am Bulgarian that now lives in Sofia but my ancestors are from Southern Ukraine .. There is still a large Bulgarian minority there - at least 300 000 people.. Everyone is talking about how Proto-Bulgars melted in the Slavic 'sea' ... That's not right . Biology does not lie :
Bulgaria = 60% East Mediterranean, 15% Alpine, 15% Dinaric, 5% Turanid, 5% Nordish
The Slavic genes are called Neo-Danubian .. Almost no one in the Balkans has genetic similarities with Russians and Poles:
Poland = 55% Neo-Danubian, 10% Ladogan, 10% Alpine, 10% Dinaric, 5% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Noric, 5% East Baltic = 70% Nordish (5% central and 65% periphery types)
Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine = 40% Neo-Danubian (most common in Belorussia and western Ukraine), 35% Ladogan, 8% Nordic, 7% East Mediterranean (most common near the Black Sea coast), 5% Dinaric (most common in eastern Ukraine), 5% Noric = 53% Nordish (8% central and 45% periphery types)
And let us have a look at the 'descendants' of the Thracians:
Romania = 35% Dinaric (most common in the west), 25% East Mediterranean (most common on the coast), 20% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 10% Alpine, 7% Noric and 3% Nordic (most common in the west) = 30% Nordish (3% central and 27% periphery types)
Romanians have only 25% East Mediterranean genes .. Bulgarians have 60% ... And Guess what East Mediterraneans ARE the local population --> Thracians, Illiryans and Greeks
We need a major revision of Balkan History but here is not the place.. Please look for similar sources but please trust anthropology,biology and genetics ... Everything that is written by a man can be a lie
PS. My source is http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html I can give you more if you want. Pafkata
Pafkata, This is a racist website and those studies are both old in method and done in order to prove a racist theory. (Kaloyan)
I will resist any attempt to contaminate this article with pseudo-scientific race theories or national mythologies such as those appearing above. Of course many different people lived in what is now Bulgaries before the Bulgars arrived, and of course their genes survive in the present Bulgarian population. That does not alter the facts I stated above: that Bulgaria is the nation-state of the Bulgarians, and that its history therefore begins with the arrival of the Bulgars. If someone wants to write the History of Moesia or the History of Thrace or the Ethno-linguistic History of the Balkans they are welcome to do so. Those topics do not belong in this article. Adam 12:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not responsible for the contents of those articles. If I was, I would indeed separate the History of Roman Britain from the History of England and I would put Native-American history (or pre-history) in an article separate from the History of the United States. This may be a minority view among Wikipedians, but that is because professional historians are a (small) minority among the people who write history articles at Wikipedia. I am not of course opposed to a brief section describing what happened in Bulgaria before the Bulgars arrived, but the detailed history of the Thracians etc belongs in another article (particularly since all this "history" is so encrusted in nationalist mythology as to be almost useless anyway). Adam 23:57, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
You can see that I really like the article but I just wanted to tell you that Historians are not always right .. I am sure that you are really familiar with the Balkan history but all sources that you have read are Greek ones... I am sure that you are already brainwashed because every historian is sure that Greeks are really 'Gods' and everything that they write is TRUE and Let me ask you : If you read only Greek and Roman sources ... Do you consider yourself flooded by theirs (Greek and Roman) propaganda . Pafkata
That website is a semi-propagandic website that emphasizes the superiority of the Nordic race, and it emphasizes the high proportion of Nordish genes in Romanians, while deemphasizing Mediterranean genes in Romanians: the author of that website views mediterranean genes as inferior, and he seems to want to include Romanians more in the Nordic ("Nordish") than in the Mediterranean, which he views as less prestigious. That is not the most scientific site you could have found. Anyway, Dacians may have been more "Nordic" or "Dinaric" than Mediterranean, even judging from how they were depicted. Decius 00:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Those percentages, if correct, are actually to the advantage of Romanians: it indicates continuity in Dacia, rather than the "Romanians are from south of the Danube" theory. And I was just being nice before and backing people up: but if you really want to know the actual situation: most Thracians were already Romanized or Hellenized by the time the Slavs came, and there are only speculations to the contrary. But anyway, there should be some Thracian genes in the Bulgarian mix, as there also Thracian genes throughout that part of Europe. Decius 00:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
The article though is okay as it is already concerning the early history of Bulgaria. Decius 00:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not in the least bit interested in "Nordic genes" or any other such nonsense. Nor am I under the power of Greek propaganda or any other propaganda. Adam 01:10, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I was commenting on the genetic claims contained in that link that User:Pafkata posted. It claims that there are more "Nordish" genes in Romanians than Medditerranean genes. Anyway, it wouldn't disturb me if there are more "nordic" than "mediterranean", or more "mediterranean" than "nordic"---in fact, I don't even think Geneticists use such classifications, so I conclude that the information provided by McCulloch in his website is crank genetics. I agree that this Wikipedia article doesn't need extensive history of Thrace: there is already a Thrace article for that. Decius 01:45, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Adam where you falling from, Mars ??? Bulgarian state is a sum of "pra-Bulgari" (english pre-Bulgarians), Slavs and Thracians !!! Just because before pra-Bulgari there was no state and because when becoming a state it took the name "Bulgarian" doesn't mean that Thracians doesn't have anything to do with US (Yes I'm Bulgarian), and that's what our school history books say. If Sprint, MCI and T-Mobile merge for instance and they decide that the company will be called MCI (for instance) does this mean that MCI is MCI and Sprint and T-Mobile are totally different story or articles ? [Ivan]
Remark: Instead of Empire sould be call Tzardom because: 1.As the main political doctrine of Byzantium, the EUCOMENISUM allowed only two emperors the one in Constantinople and the emperor of The Holy Roman Empire (Germany) 2.Tzar is the title of the monarch comes from Ceaser(lt)=Keiser(Germ)=Emperor=brother to the emperor in Constantinople`equal to him 3.The Russian Tzars of the House of Romanov are allowed to call themselves Emperors but at the time of Kniaz IvanIV the Terrible The Moskovian Kniazdom was the only legitimate orthodox successor of Byzanthia after 1454
_________ if you meant EUCOMENISM (I'm not very good in latin, but http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=EUCOMENISUM says no such word) then you know it's church's way to define rulers of the world, and it's a compromise with an older weak roman empire and stronger bizantium (empire) for that who can rule the (known) world. It's the same as someone with more guns than you can call himself "generalissimos".
But actually in the BIZANTIUM sources we can find "Simeon, Emperror of Bizantiums and Bulgarians", or, as its written at the moment "Emperor of both Bulgarians and Greeks" (God knows why the writer missed bulgar(ian)s ;) ) - so, as you said, only two emperrors can be - and that one in Constantinople was not an emperor at that time, am I wrong ? Actualy noone can argue that Bulgaria was an empire at least once, so this 'remark' is senseless & meaningless. for the (1.)
For your point (2.) the brother never moved from Constantinople ? ;)))) And for the point (3.) Simeon ruled about 600 years before russins had 'Tzar' ;)
83.228.1.116OhuBohu
FOR YOUR INFORMATION-I MEAN ALL OF YOU WHY DO THINK BULGARIA IS CALLED BULGARIA AND NOT ANYTHING ELSE. ALSO PLEASE DO YOUR READING-DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE WERE OTHER BULGARIAS THERE WAS A VOLJKA BULGARIA AND GREAT BULGARIA AND PRESENT BULGARIA-SO WHEN YOU SAY BULGARS ARRIVED PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU SAY WHERE FROM. FROM THEIR OTHER BULGARIAN COUNTRIES MENTIONED ABOVE LOCATED FURTHER NORTH. DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT THEY ARRIVED TO BULGARIAN LANDS TO CLAIM BACK WHAT WAS THEIRS? OFFICIALLY THERE ARE PROOFS THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A THRACIAN LANGUAGE IT IS A PRE-BULGARIAN LANGUAGE-SCINETIST HAVE TRIED IDENTIFYING THRACIAN LANGUAGE FOUND ON OBJECTS IN TOMBS WITH EVERY LANGUAGE THEY COULD AND GUESS WHAT IT READ BULGARIAN AND IT SOUNDED BULGARIAN AND THE EVEN THE LETTERS WERE BULGARIAN. PLEASE NOTE THAT I DO NOT NEED TO GIVE SOURCES AS ANYONE CAN GOOGLE IT. ALSO PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SPEAK OF AND TO MY CONCLUSION AND EVERYONES CONCLUSION I WILL ONLY SAY ONE THING THAT WILL BE ENOUGH AND WILL SHUT ALL OF YOU UP. IN AN ANONYMOUS CHRONOLOGY FROM 324AD IT SAY 'ZIEZI EX QUO VULGARES' MEANING ZIEZI FROM WHOM ARE THE BULGARIANS- ZIEZI SON OF SEM, SEM GRANDSON OF NOAH-THATS HOW ANCIENT BULGARIANS ARE OK?WHY DON'T YOU MENTION BULGARIAS TWO FORMER COUNTRIES UP NORHT THAT EVEN CHINGISKHAN COULD NOT TAKE OVER OR DESTROY-WHAT IS WITH THE ANTI BULGARIAN CAMPAIGN-JUST STOP IT-OH AND ONE MORE THING JOHN ATANASOF INVENTED THE COMPUTER SO WE WOULD NOT HAVE AN ELECTRONIC DEBATE IF A BULGARIAN DID NOT DO THIS FOR US. ALSO TO THE WIKIPEDIA EDITOR OF THE MAIN PAGE ABOUT BULGARIA PLEASE CORRECT THE START AND THE FIRST MENTIONINGS OF BULGARIAN AND PLEASE CLARIFY FROM WHAT YEAR THEY EXIST AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM BEFORE OCCUPYING PRESENT TERRITORY-AND YES IT IS WORTH IT BECAUSE THEY WERE STILL CALLED BULGARS BACK THEN SO WE DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO THINK THAT WE CAME FROM NOWHERE-AND ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT ROMAN AND OTHER EMPIRES WERE COLONISING PEOPLE AND FORCING THEM TO CHANGE RELIGION BELIEFS ETC AND TOK THEM FOR SLAVES.UNLIKE BULGARIA-OTHER TRIBES AND COUNTIRES WILLINGLY JOINED IN AND WERE PROUD TO BE CALLED BULGAR OR BULGARIAN. BULGARIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN EUROPE THAT HAS ITS FIRST AND ORIGINAL OLDEST AND ONLY NAME. BULGARIA ALSO WAS THE GREATEST WARRIOR EMPIRE AFTER ROME IN EUROPE. WE HAVE A SEPARATE LANGUAGE THE WE GAVE RUSSIA AND MACEDONIA AND MANY OTHER THINGS SO RESPECT BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE MANY THINGS ARE OWED TO US.
Doesn't it seem a bit of an oxymoron to say that the sultan did not force the Christians to convert and then provide a number of instances in which it was official policy for Christians to convert to Islam? e.g. the "instances of forced mass and individual conversion" and the official policy requiring 1/5th of young male children to be taken from their homes and forced to convert and join the army. It is more than fair in light of that policy alone to say the Turkish policy was forceful conversion - or at least restate the Turkish history part to reflect that sentiment. In fact, the entire Turkish section needs to be expanded, Turkish rule remains a very sensitive point for Bulgarians, and there is more than ample evidence Turkish rule was a bit more sinister than the kind of banevalent neglect hints at.
At least a point should be made about the use of the term "Blood Tax" - that is an important part of Bulgarian history, politics, and national identity and is indivorcable from the time of Turkish rule.
- Good point... maybe somebody should start on that
OK, the Rimocatholic and Grecoorthodox churches split IN 1054. Look at the year stating in which the Bulgarians became Orthodox Christians in the article! Can anyone explain it??? Sargeras 17:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
The information here is very insufficient. Personally, I added more about Khan Krum's reign-about the laws he introduced(I took it from the article on Krum). I suggest that more information be added and, subsequently, the article to be broken into series.-Deyan, Bulgaria.
I SEE THE INFORMATION THAT I ADDED WAS ERASED. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY, SINCE THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF BG HISTORY. THE PERSON WHO ERASED IT MUST BE REALLY DUMB,INDEED.-DEYAN
Dear Deyan, see what you wrote:
"Khan Krum was also known for the first Bulgarian written laws, which, in what may be the earliest example of state social policy in history, ensured subsidies to beggars and state protection to the poor of all Bulgarians. Through his laws he became known as a magnanimous ruler, bringing Slavs and Bulgars into a centralized state. Drinking, slander and robbery were severely punished under Krum, an extraordinary personality that has impressed many prominent Europeans for many centuries."
First of all these "written laws" are known just from one source - the Byzantine Lexicon Suidas, which is compilated many time after Krum's death. (You could check this link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14328a.htm.) There is significant group of Historians who have doubts of existence or at least the proper essence of these laws. There aren't any Bulgarian evidences about them. Second. It is an absurdity to define these (supposed!) laws as first state social policy in the History. This stament surely reveals lack of knowledge about History... There are numerous examples about such kind of state policy in many ancient societies. Do you wish to give you more information? Third. Traditionally in the Bulgarian science the very proces of centralization is thought as connected with the rule of khan Omurtag. Fourth. Are you capable, dear Deyan, to give arguments that khan Krum really impressed many prominent Europeans for many centuries? Finally. Am I dumb? I think your ideas are not appropriate for this site. P. s. Deyan, I must say I could agree with formulation as "According to some late sources khan Krum implemented law reform intending to reduce the poverty and to strengthen the social ties in his significant enlarged state." Would you agree with this variant?
Dear Anonymous, I don't know whether you're dumb or not but you haven't read what I have said. I SAID THAT I TOOK IT FROM THE ARTICLE ON KRUM. I haven't payed attention to the words "the first laws", my fault, sorry. Of course, you're right about this, only a dumb person would argue. Yet, again, I don't agree with the way you have edited it because it gives very insufficient information. For a nation, it's first laws are a key event.
Dear Deyan, I'm afraid there are too many articles on khan Krum and many of them are examples for a patriotic mithology rather than a proper historiography. I agree that the whole review of Bulgarian History in Wikipedia is too brief and couldn't create reliable idea about Bulgarian past... But I couldn't dare to write more widely. It must be a systematic revision with clear conception. This is quite hard not only because there are many points of view about many problems in the tradition of the historical researches, but even modern popular myths as these created and supported from laical persons like Petar Dobrev... Finally, I have to say that supposed laws of Krum (other Byzantine Historians who described his reign and lived not too far from his time didn't mention anything about the existence of law reform although that reform consists of really spectacular and not typical regulations) could not be dedefined as "first laws for a nation". There are reasons to think that the first laws which described the structure and the methods of a state harmony were founded in the times of khan Asparoukh.
Yes,what you're saying is logical, but can you show me some sources, links, etc.? In Bulgaria, it is widely accepted and agreed that Krum's laws were the first that really established order and formed an adequate state policy.-Deyan
Dear Deyan, Then how must be treated the pact between the Seven slav tribes and Severs and the motley group of khan Asparoukh? Planned systematic fortification of the whole territory of the lands of the federation during first decades after 681? Clear territorial division between slavs and protobulgars? Lack of information about internal religious and cultural conflicts from 681 to 814 although scientists such prof. V. Zlatarski supposed existence ot pro-bulgarian and pro-slavic parties among aristocrasy in the second part of 8th century? Information about my point of view you could reach in the texts of a leading contemporary archaeologist Rasho Rashev. - Anonymos
Dear Anonymous, look, maybe it's best to leave it in as it is for now. There are sources from where you can get proves of Krum's laws;amazingly enough, I can't find them in the net yet.-Deyan.
Dear Deyan, I'll cite "History of Bulgaria" in 14 volumes from Bulgarian science academy's team, volume II, Sofia, 1981, p. 144, about Krum's laws: "Information about them contains only one source - the well-known Suidas Lexicon." Further from the same text: "These laws themselves as exposed from Suidas carry to some extent legendary character, and some of them are refuted from other information about bulgarian realities at these times." - Anonymous. "Dear Deyan, Then how must be treated the pact between the Seven slav tribes and Severs and the motley group of khan Asparoukh? Planned systematic fortification of the whole territory of the lands of the federation during first decades after 681? Clear territorial division between slavs and protobulgars? Lack of information about internal religious and cultural conflicts from 681 to 814 although scientists such prof. V. Zlatarski supposed existence ot pro-bulgarian and pro-slavic parties among aristocrasy in the second part of 8th century? Information about my point of view you could reach in the texts of a leading contemporary archaeologist Rasho Rashev. - Anonymos" .........There are no any federation between proto bulgars and slaves in this period681 - 814 or U must proove it-- Иваннт ( talk) 09:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Is it really worth mentioning? It's an interesting new theory, but it has some serious flaws... the Bulgarian language is completely Slavic and I wouldn't say the Slavic Bulgarian language of the time was so similar to the Bulgar language, even if it was Iranian (thus Indo-European) and not Turkic, as proposed by this theory. Dimitrov emphasises that the Bulgars that settled in the are were quite many, enough to defeat a (if I remember correctly) 60,000 Byzantine army led by the emperor himself. I would estimate the number of all the Bulgars that came at about 120,000 (at most), but Dimitrov's theory states that the Slavs were less than people think and therefore the Bulgars were as many as the Slavs or even outnumbered them. His theory doesn't answer the question why would the state adopt a Slavic language, and not the Bulgar one, if the Bulgars were as many as the Slavs, provided that the rulers of Bulgaria at that time were Bulgars, as well as all the nobles and the whole administration. Also, if the two languages "merged", there would be more Bulgar traces in the Bulgarian language, not just a couple of words. Old Bulgarian (Old Church Slavonic) is the first Slavonic language attested in writing, thereby influencing almost all other Slavic languages... you can't call that a language a semi-Slavic blend, and this is easy to prove. And besides, a funny part of the theory saids that the reason why the Bulgarian rulers at some time began to carry Slavic names was because the Slav wives of the tsars were insisting on this, which made me laugh the first time I read it. Also, as far as I know, almost none of the Bulgar tradition and folklore is preserved nowadays in Bulgaria, which is also an argument for the Slavic assimilation. We have a Slavic language, Slavic culture, names and so on. Dimitrov also says that the Bulgarians are physically different from the Slavs, which I oppose. I've been many times to Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, other South Slavic countries, and if I met other South Slavs in Bulgaria I wouldn't say they're foreigners before hearing them speak. It's normal that we're a bit different from East and West Slavs (Russians, Czechs, Poles), after all, we've been living south on the Balkans for about 1500 years now. -- TodorBozhinov 11:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Bojidar's theory is not without merit. However, he is not a highly trained and an accomplished scholar who would develop a strong theory and defend every point of it meticulously and with intellectual fervour. Again, this doesn't mean he cannot have good ideas ... In defence of his theory I'd like to state that his initial explanation seems about right. A small unit of Bulgarian soldiers would not be able to defeat a regular Byzantine army. Some people estimate the whole wave of migration to have numbered approximately a million. This includes women (where polygamy was not uncommon), old people and children. What happens later has changed the demographics substantially. 1.Constant warfare, where the Bulgar warriors bore most of the brunt 2.Later and more intense Slavic migrations 3.Slaughter of many Bulgar nobles (and their families) by Boris on two occasions and later by the Russian and Byzantine invasion 4.Slavic inclusion has also been part of the Khans' strategy to balance the power of the Bulgar nobles (Kaloyan)
The names of the subarticles: History of Independent Bulgaria and History of Democratic Bulgaria are not very well chosen. Independent Bulgaria (1878-1940) was also democratic, while Democratic Bulgaria (1990-) is also independent. :-) bogdan 19:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
History of Independent Bulgaria article begins with:
However, Russo-Turkish War, 1877–1878 says :
Which of the two is wrong? bogdan 19:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The San Stefano Treaty was for independance (and, much larger Bulgaria), but the Congress of Berlin "The independence of Bulgaria, however, was denied: it was "guaranteed" autonomy and guarantees against Turkish oppression" - that is. And with the "Unification of Bulgaria" revolt in 1885 (why nowhere mentioned?!?) there was the actual independance ot Bulgaria acnowledged by the 'European Great Powers'. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin%2C_1878 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin 83.228.1.116OhuBohu
Don't you think the general History of Bulgaria should be a fully informative article that sums up the most important events of Bulgarian history, rather than just a page where to choose a certain period of history to read about? I mean having the most important information divided into paragraphs and included in the article, just attaching a main article to each paragraph. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → Talk 22:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
The map 'Bulgaria-(893-927)-TsarSimeon-byTodorBozhinov.png' is not unsourced. As a matter of fact, it originates in the 1979 Bulgarian Military Atlas. Some inaccuracies are worth correcting though, e.g. there was neither 'Serbia' nor 'Hungary' in the early Tenth Century. Apcbg 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The image is POV because it presents only one point of view, the one of the Bulgarian historians. The POVs of others, including Ostrogorsky and Britannica are not presented. bogdan 14:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
From "A Concise History of Bulgaria", by Richard J. Crampton, Cambridge University Press, 1997:
bogdan 17:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is the passage from Runciman (pp. 149-150) written in the 30's I was referring to:
I've given a look to the three historical atlases I've got; one is of no use, as it doesn't have any map of the First Bulgarian Empire; but the other two are concord with what I said about Ostrogorsky's maps, i.e. the northern border was the Danube and the southern border didn't strech to the Aegaean.-- Aldux 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I hope you're still there :) A few Romanian Wikipedians have questioned the degree of Bulgarian rule over the territories north of the Danube (from the defeat of the Avar Khaganate by Krum till the time of Samuil), and claim it's "theoritical" and not continuous, but instead periodical, and there was little evidence of it. I tried to defend the position that these territories were continuously part of the Bulgarian Empire, but I'm not an expert on the subject and have no access to the primary sources that this is based on. Could you please help settle the issue? You may like to read User talk:Bogdangiusca#Map of Bulgaria. Thanks in advance! Todor → Bozhinov 10:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
So I edited the map to show the disputed regions. I kind of suck with the software though, so I welcome people to improve on it. - Francis Tyers · 09:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The reasons I was sceptical of the claim that Bulgarian rule north of the Danube was completely obliterated by the Magyars (and Pechenegs) can be found in the following Wikipedia articles. They are about Bulgarian provincial governors and their descendants (some of whom are claimed by some Romanian historians to have been Vlach or simply "Slav"). There are good maps provided with each article.
So it seems to me that the Hungarians originally settled west of the Tisza and then set out to conquer the Bulgarian dominions and vassals in Transylvania and Banat. And it is likely that some (but definitely not all) of those territories were still under Bulgarian rule at Simeon's death and even later.
Here are a couple of other maps, accompanying the original source (Gesta Hungarorum).
The map of the First Bulgarian Empire is incorrect. Just look at its borders! -- PaxEquilibrium 22:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am not sure about Bulgaria's borders on that map, but the information it says about Hungary is wrong. Hungary's name doesn't derive from the Huns and present-day hungarians aren't descendands from the huns. --Georgi Zenopyan, 17:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Do we have a source for that? The arrival of the Slavs appears to coincide in time with the disappearance of those tribes and languages, so it could be that they were simply assimilated. bogdan 09:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed the name of the section "Under Byzantine rule" to "Byzantine Bulgaria" because at this time Bulgaria was a thema in the Byzantine Empire - thema Bulgaria. Lantonov ( talk) 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about you guys but I think the section on the First Bulgarian empire is way too long and doesn't sound like an encyclopedia. It needs to be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naru12333 ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of Bulgaria's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bakalov":
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help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:58, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Folks, would like to propose changing the headings of the side menu from Byzantine conquest to Comitopuli Period and Ottoman conquest to Late Second Empire. These periods include a lot more than the conflicts with Byzantium and Ottomans and can be expanded to include things like the Genoa invasions during the second Bulgarian Empire and Comitopuli was with Hungary. Thoughts? Hispaniolaz ( talk) 19:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
No. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 14:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
According to Encyclopedia Britannica: Bulgaria lost its independence in 1018 and remained subject to Byzantium for more than a century and a half, until 1185. With the collapse of the first Bulgarian state, the Bulgarian church fell under the domination of Greek ecclesiastics who took control of the see of Ohrid and attempted to replace the Bulgarian Slavic liturgy with a Greek liturgy. [4] Jingiby ( talk) 17:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
"and is generally accepted as having good freedom of speech and human rights record.[103]" (the last but one sentence). The external link is dead (I only find a Bulgaria country study from 1993) . Has someone new and reliable facts ? -- Neun-x ( talk) 20:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
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632 is when Kubrat established Great Bulgaria, not 681. 681 is when Asparukh established modern Bulgaria. Just read on in the article Dannywinrow ( talk) 10:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Exactly, so why on earth do you keep changing the date in the article for the creation of Great Bulgaria to 681? The article is inconsistent with itself and this really is a simple change. Read the whole paragraph and the paragraphs further on about this period. It's embarrassing to have a page with inconsistent logic and so I helped you by fixing it. I haven't got the time to continuously battle you with changes if you feel you are some steward of logical inconsistency. At least do yourself the decency to read and understand why it should be changed. Huntedhippo ( talk) 09:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
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Bulgaria's experience in WW2 is missing.
Try breaking this into a series, like History of Germany. -- Jia ng 16:38, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I know this is very arrogant of me, but I'm afraid the old article was such a horrible mess that I couldn't stand looking at it any more. It was much easier to write a new one than try to rescue the old one. It's also a very educational process. Adam 15:46, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I presume the anonymous editor who has been making changes to this article today is a Bulgarian. My message to him or her is:
Adam 06:27, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Anonymous user, feel free to add back your contributions, just be careful not to edit over any corrections a person might've made while you were writing. I don't know why Adam objects to having more detail in the article; Wikipedia policy is generally very inclusive when it comes to detail. But please don't vandalize this talk page. Everyking 00:42, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I guess Adam has some problems with certain facts of the history of the medieval world. Probably he should educate himself better.
I didn`t appreciate that he deleted my contribution to the common knowlegde, especially having in mind that I sacrified my free time to Wikipedia. I never expected this response.
P.S. My name is Kurt Oberholtzer. I am not Anonyous anymore. Greetings!
Adam, please check in the refference when was the Romanian nation created (hint - after 18th century) and then think twice before naming the Vlachs in 13th cetury Romanians. I shall gladly give you more lessons in medieval history.
Mr Oberholtzer I will be happy to discuss Bulgarian, Romanian or any other history with you when you drop this sneering and abusive tone towards other editors. Adam 03:03, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Everyking, the Protobulgarians believed in only one god, Tangra. Evidently, you confuse them with the Slavs, who were indeed polytheists. 213.240.199.186
i'm asking all this because i am a romanian and i have a different view on this info. with all due respect for the bulgars Criztu 22:16, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are good reasons to link the Asens to the Ashina dynasty whose scions were called to rule a number of countries in Asia and Eastern Europe. -- Vladko 05:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The title is Tsar. That the word which Bulgarians used for their rulers at that time. I think Dux and Rex are inappropriate because they come from Roman empire. Basileus comes from Byzantine empire. Tsars are somehow equivalent to medieval Kings but has no dependency from church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.44.103.107 ( talk) 10:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
As the edit template says:
Doesn't this article need some decent references? Many encyclopedias are hit-or-miss for accuracy. Personal knowledge can't be cited; it can't be checked by others, and sounds like just plain POV. I know it's hard, but I really think we need people to go back and read some respected references, list them, and adjust the article to fit better with those references. That should avoid some of these repeated reverts. -- A D Monroe III 12:53, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You had better be prepared to back that allegation up with some evidence. Adam 01:22, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't need to lift a finger. The article itself is the evidence. Decius 01:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Your refusal to justify your slanders is noted. Adam 03:24, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Propaganda is a type of message presentation aimed at serving a particular agenda. This article does indeed fit the definition of propaganda. A sizable part of it is written by Bulgarians, so it does in fact fit the definition of Bulgarian propaganda (cheap Bulgarian propaganda, because it is transparent). It embodies fictional elements, so it can be classed as Fiction. Decius 03:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It depends on what I was referring to when I said "it": "it" meaning the article, or "it" meaning the propaganda: "A sizable part of it (the propaganda) was written by Bulgarians, so it (the propaganda) does indeed fit the definition of Bulgarian propaganda." Propaganda applies not only to what was written, but also to what was purposefully erased. Decius 04:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For anybody that wants to read more, the question of Peter Asen's Vlach ethnicity is debated here: Talk: Kingdom of Bulgarians and Vlachs. Also, discussed here: Asen dynasty and here Kaloyan/ Talk:Kaloyan. Decius 05:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So is that what this is all about? One minor edit on whether some obscure character from the Middle Ages was or was not part-Vlach is hardly worth all the abuse you have heaped on the author/s of this article. I don't care whether Peter Asen was a Vlach or a Hottentot, and I doubt anyone else does either.
I don't give a damn what you care about, or who originally wrote the article, and it's about more than that. This is not about you, it is about the historical neutrality of the article, and it is about the history of Bulgaria. If someone engages to write such an article, they must be concerned with all the aspects that come under consideration. Not just part-Vlach, he may have been all Vlach going back a generation and partly Vlach going back more. Decius 07:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
16:44, the 16th of December, 2004, user:Criztu (a Romanian contributor) changes this sentence: "In 1185, a leading Vlach noble, Peter Asen, led a Bulgarian revolt against Byzantine rule..." to "In 1185, a leader of the Vlachs, Peter Asen, led a revolt against Byzantine rule...", and Criztu also changes the Ivan to John (Ioan). 17:23, 16th of December, 2004, user:VMORO (a Bulgarian contributor) is deeply upset by this and writes in his edit-summary "If you don't leave this article alone now, there will be 'sudden' burts of vandalism against Romanian articles, this is final warning", and Vmoro changes the sentence: "In 1185, a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble, Peter Asen, led a revolt...". On the 31st of December, 2004, at 15:36, an "anonymous" contributor (82.119.76.36) then finally got up the courage and wrote "In 1185, a leading noble of mixed, Cuman-Bulgarian origin, led a revolt..." and any mention of the Vlach element of his ethnicity suddenly and mysteriously disappears from the article, no reason given by this "anonymous" contributor. Of course, this violates NPOV standards, because actual historians (and not just anonymous Wikipedia contributors) and scholars affirm (though of course, others disagree, so it is a disputed issue and both sides must be represented) the Vlach ethnicity of Peter Asen, and of his Dynasty. Decius 07:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I wrote the original sentence, saying that Asen was a Vlach, so you owe me an apology for a start. Secondly, petty Balkan nationalists of all kinds should all go and take a cold shower and stop threatening each other. Adam 07:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't owe you an apology because I never accused you personally of anything, it was you who took my criticism of the article personally: it was not a criticism of the writing style, it was a criticism of the neutrality, of the facts, and was aimed at contributors such as Vmoro (but I wasn't sure who else was involved, or exactly who wrote what) and others like him. Decius 07:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You wrote: "The parties responsible for this article have no desire to cite references, because they have no desire to write History. They are writing Fiction (cheap Pulp magazine fiction) and Propaganda (cheap Bulgarian propaganda)." As the party principally responsible for this article, and as a historian, I am entitled to object to that kind of slander, particularly when it turns out your objections are in fact only about one minor point. Adam 07:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, you are right about that, and an Apology is due: so I apologize about implying that you were involved in the biased edits. I'll even erase that comment. Decius 07:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Whatever Vmoro or any other Wikipedia contributor has to say about the Vlachness of Peter Asen is irrelevant, because Vmoro is not in a position to supercede the statements and views of actual historians on the matter. The Vlachness of Peter Asen and his dynasty is disputed, yes, but it must be mentioned if his ethnicity is to be discussed at all. Decius 07:31, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Adam wrote: "a leading Vlach noble"; for some reason, Criztu changed it "a leader of the Vlachs"; then Vmoro changed it on Dec 16th to "a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble"; then Anonymous changed it on Dec 31st to: "a leading noble of mixed, Cuman-Bulgarian origin"; it is obvious that Anonymous was Vmoro, who became Anonymous so he wouldn't contradict himself, having earlier himself wrote "a leading Vlach-Bulgarian noble". And it is obvious that this is only one Point Of View. Decius 07:53, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This article isn't getting better in this mode.
If we only use personal knowledge to write a article, it seems like POV to others. Worse, any question of the source seems like a personal attack. Responses to personal attacks seem like personal attacks, and so on. There's no resolution this way.
Instead, if we find and read sources, fix the article to align with the sources, and note those sources, then it doesn't look like POV. If someone questions the references, it doesn't seem personal, nor do responses.
Of course, this is harder to do, but this is the way Wikipedia works, right? Or does someone have a different idea?
-- A D Monroe III 16:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not happy with the history of Bulgaria starting with the Proto-Bulgarians. There were other nations in those lands long before them whom Bulgarians rightly consider their forefathers, like the Thracians.-- Vladko 06:24, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Bulgaria is the nation state of the Bulgarians. Its history begins with the arrival of the Bulgarians in that territory. What happened there previously is not really relevant. If the Bulgarians consider the Thracians to be their ancestors they are wrong. Adam 06:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Possibly, that is not the same thing as saying that the Thracians were the "forefathers" of the Bulgarians. Between the time the Thracians controlled the area and the time the Bulgars arrived it had been settled successively by the Greeks, Goths, Avars and Slavs. If there were many Thracians left I'd be very surprised. Most of the population were Slavs. Adam 12:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if any groups of Thracians speaking the Thracian language were still around in Thrace when the Slavs settled in Thrace, but I do know that it has been proven that genetic-continuity is the norm in the Balkans, so plenty of Thracian genes are present in Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, and so on, and these people can rightly consider Thracians as among their forefathers (among other forefathers, etc.). It seems that genetic samples indicate that Balkan (and other European) peoples have more pre-Indo-European genes than Indo-European, so that indicates continuity despite the comings and goings of ethnic tribes over the millenia. Decius 18:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Didn't find those websites, but I was right about Procopius. Also found a map of early Slav settlements in Thrace. Decius 20:39, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
First of all , the article is good enough for a non-Balkan folks to become familiar with Bulgarian History - however most of the facts in the article are just lies created by historians . I am Bulgarian that now lives in Sofia but my ancestors are from Southern Ukraine .. There is still a large Bulgarian minority there - at least 300 000 people.. Everyone is talking about how Proto-Bulgars melted in the Slavic 'sea' ... That's not right . Biology does not lie :
Bulgaria = 60% East Mediterranean, 15% Alpine, 15% Dinaric, 5% Turanid, 5% Nordish
The Slavic genes are called Neo-Danubian .. Almost no one in the Balkans has genetic similarities with Russians and Poles:
Poland = 55% Neo-Danubian, 10% Ladogan, 10% Alpine, 10% Dinaric, 5% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Noric, 5% East Baltic = 70% Nordish (5% central and 65% periphery types)
Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine = 40% Neo-Danubian (most common in Belorussia and western Ukraine), 35% Ladogan, 8% Nordic, 7% East Mediterranean (most common near the Black Sea coast), 5% Dinaric (most common in eastern Ukraine), 5% Noric = 53% Nordish (8% central and 45% periphery types)
And let us have a look at the 'descendants' of the Thracians:
Romania = 35% Dinaric (most common in the west), 25% East Mediterranean (most common on the coast), 20% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 10% Alpine, 7% Noric and 3% Nordic (most common in the west) = 30% Nordish (3% central and 27% periphery types)
Romanians have only 25% East Mediterranean genes .. Bulgarians have 60% ... And Guess what East Mediterraneans ARE the local population --> Thracians, Illiryans and Greeks
We need a major revision of Balkan History but here is not the place.. Please look for similar sources but please trust anthropology,biology and genetics ... Everything that is written by a man can be a lie
PS. My source is http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html I can give you more if you want. Pafkata
Pafkata, This is a racist website and those studies are both old in method and done in order to prove a racist theory. (Kaloyan)
I will resist any attempt to contaminate this article with pseudo-scientific race theories or national mythologies such as those appearing above. Of course many different people lived in what is now Bulgaries before the Bulgars arrived, and of course their genes survive in the present Bulgarian population. That does not alter the facts I stated above: that Bulgaria is the nation-state of the Bulgarians, and that its history therefore begins with the arrival of the Bulgars. If someone wants to write the History of Moesia or the History of Thrace or the Ethno-linguistic History of the Balkans they are welcome to do so. Those topics do not belong in this article. Adam 12:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not responsible for the contents of those articles. If I was, I would indeed separate the History of Roman Britain from the History of England and I would put Native-American history (or pre-history) in an article separate from the History of the United States. This may be a minority view among Wikipedians, but that is because professional historians are a (small) minority among the people who write history articles at Wikipedia. I am not of course opposed to a brief section describing what happened in Bulgaria before the Bulgars arrived, but the detailed history of the Thracians etc belongs in another article (particularly since all this "history" is so encrusted in nationalist mythology as to be almost useless anyway). Adam 23:57, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
You can see that I really like the article but I just wanted to tell you that Historians are not always right .. I am sure that you are really familiar with the Balkan history but all sources that you have read are Greek ones... I am sure that you are already brainwashed because every historian is sure that Greeks are really 'Gods' and everything that they write is TRUE and Let me ask you : If you read only Greek and Roman sources ... Do you consider yourself flooded by theirs (Greek and Roman) propaganda . Pafkata
That website is a semi-propagandic website that emphasizes the superiority of the Nordic race, and it emphasizes the high proportion of Nordish genes in Romanians, while deemphasizing Mediterranean genes in Romanians: the author of that website views mediterranean genes as inferior, and he seems to want to include Romanians more in the Nordic ("Nordish") than in the Mediterranean, which he views as less prestigious. That is not the most scientific site you could have found. Anyway, Dacians may have been more "Nordic" or "Dinaric" than Mediterranean, even judging from how they were depicted. Decius 00:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Those percentages, if correct, are actually to the advantage of Romanians: it indicates continuity in Dacia, rather than the "Romanians are from south of the Danube" theory. And I was just being nice before and backing people up: but if you really want to know the actual situation: most Thracians were already Romanized or Hellenized by the time the Slavs came, and there are only speculations to the contrary. But anyway, there should be some Thracian genes in the Bulgarian mix, as there also Thracian genes throughout that part of Europe. Decius 00:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
The article though is okay as it is already concerning the early history of Bulgaria. Decius 00:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not in the least bit interested in "Nordic genes" or any other such nonsense. Nor am I under the power of Greek propaganda or any other propaganda. Adam 01:10, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I was commenting on the genetic claims contained in that link that User:Pafkata posted. It claims that there are more "Nordish" genes in Romanians than Medditerranean genes. Anyway, it wouldn't disturb me if there are more "nordic" than "mediterranean", or more "mediterranean" than "nordic"---in fact, I don't even think Geneticists use such classifications, so I conclude that the information provided by McCulloch in his website is crank genetics. I agree that this Wikipedia article doesn't need extensive history of Thrace: there is already a Thrace article for that. Decius 01:45, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Adam where you falling from, Mars ??? Bulgarian state is a sum of "pra-Bulgari" (english pre-Bulgarians), Slavs and Thracians !!! Just because before pra-Bulgari there was no state and because when becoming a state it took the name "Bulgarian" doesn't mean that Thracians doesn't have anything to do with US (Yes I'm Bulgarian), and that's what our school history books say. If Sprint, MCI and T-Mobile merge for instance and they decide that the company will be called MCI (for instance) does this mean that MCI is MCI and Sprint and T-Mobile are totally different story or articles ? [Ivan]
Remark: Instead of Empire sould be call Tzardom because: 1.As the main political doctrine of Byzantium, the EUCOMENISUM allowed only two emperors the one in Constantinople and the emperor of The Holy Roman Empire (Germany) 2.Tzar is the title of the monarch comes from Ceaser(lt)=Keiser(Germ)=Emperor=brother to the emperor in Constantinople`equal to him 3.The Russian Tzars of the House of Romanov are allowed to call themselves Emperors but at the time of Kniaz IvanIV the Terrible The Moskovian Kniazdom was the only legitimate orthodox successor of Byzanthia after 1454
_________ if you meant EUCOMENISM (I'm not very good in latin, but http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=EUCOMENISUM says no such word) then you know it's church's way to define rulers of the world, and it's a compromise with an older weak roman empire and stronger bizantium (empire) for that who can rule the (known) world. It's the same as someone with more guns than you can call himself "generalissimos".
But actually in the BIZANTIUM sources we can find "Simeon, Emperror of Bizantiums and Bulgarians", or, as its written at the moment "Emperor of both Bulgarians and Greeks" (God knows why the writer missed bulgar(ian)s ;) ) - so, as you said, only two emperrors can be - and that one in Constantinople was not an emperor at that time, am I wrong ? Actualy noone can argue that Bulgaria was an empire at least once, so this 'remark' is senseless & meaningless. for the (1.)
For your point (2.) the brother never moved from Constantinople ? ;)))) And for the point (3.) Simeon ruled about 600 years before russins had 'Tzar' ;)
83.228.1.116OhuBohu
FOR YOUR INFORMATION-I MEAN ALL OF YOU WHY DO THINK BULGARIA IS CALLED BULGARIA AND NOT ANYTHING ELSE. ALSO PLEASE DO YOUR READING-DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE WERE OTHER BULGARIAS THERE WAS A VOLJKA BULGARIA AND GREAT BULGARIA AND PRESENT BULGARIA-SO WHEN YOU SAY BULGARS ARRIVED PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU SAY WHERE FROM. FROM THEIR OTHER BULGARIAN COUNTRIES MENTIONED ABOVE LOCATED FURTHER NORTH. DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT THEY ARRIVED TO BULGARIAN LANDS TO CLAIM BACK WHAT WAS THEIRS? OFFICIALLY THERE ARE PROOFS THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A THRACIAN LANGUAGE IT IS A PRE-BULGARIAN LANGUAGE-SCINETIST HAVE TRIED IDENTIFYING THRACIAN LANGUAGE FOUND ON OBJECTS IN TOMBS WITH EVERY LANGUAGE THEY COULD AND GUESS WHAT IT READ BULGARIAN AND IT SOUNDED BULGARIAN AND THE EVEN THE LETTERS WERE BULGARIAN. PLEASE NOTE THAT I DO NOT NEED TO GIVE SOURCES AS ANYONE CAN GOOGLE IT. ALSO PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SPEAK OF AND TO MY CONCLUSION AND EVERYONES CONCLUSION I WILL ONLY SAY ONE THING THAT WILL BE ENOUGH AND WILL SHUT ALL OF YOU UP. IN AN ANONYMOUS CHRONOLOGY FROM 324AD IT SAY 'ZIEZI EX QUO VULGARES' MEANING ZIEZI FROM WHOM ARE THE BULGARIANS- ZIEZI SON OF SEM, SEM GRANDSON OF NOAH-THATS HOW ANCIENT BULGARIANS ARE OK?WHY DON'T YOU MENTION BULGARIAS TWO FORMER COUNTRIES UP NORHT THAT EVEN CHINGISKHAN COULD NOT TAKE OVER OR DESTROY-WHAT IS WITH THE ANTI BULGARIAN CAMPAIGN-JUST STOP IT-OH AND ONE MORE THING JOHN ATANASOF INVENTED THE COMPUTER SO WE WOULD NOT HAVE AN ELECTRONIC DEBATE IF A BULGARIAN DID NOT DO THIS FOR US. ALSO TO THE WIKIPEDIA EDITOR OF THE MAIN PAGE ABOUT BULGARIA PLEASE CORRECT THE START AND THE FIRST MENTIONINGS OF BULGARIAN AND PLEASE CLARIFY FROM WHAT YEAR THEY EXIST AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM BEFORE OCCUPYING PRESENT TERRITORY-AND YES IT IS WORTH IT BECAUSE THEY WERE STILL CALLED BULGARS BACK THEN SO WE DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO THINK THAT WE CAME FROM NOWHERE-AND ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT ROMAN AND OTHER EMPIRES WERE COLONISING PEOPLE AND FORCING THEM TO CHANGE RELIGION BELIEFS ETC AND TOK THEM FOR SLAVES.UNLIKE BULGARIA-OTHER TRIBES AND COUNTIRES WILLINGLY JOINED IN AND WERE PROUD TO BE CALLED BULGAR OR BULGARIAN. BULGARIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN EUROPE THAT HAS ITS FIRST AND ORIGINAL OLDEST AND ONLY NAME. BULGARIA ALSO WAS THE GREATEST WARRIOR EMPIRE AFTER ROME IN EUROPE. WE HAVE A SEPARATE LANGUAGE THE WE GAVE RUSSIA AND MACEDONIA AND MANY OTHER THINGS SO RESPECT BEFORE YOU SPEAK BECAUSE MANY THINGS ARE OWED TO US.
Doesn't it seem a bit of an oxymoron to say that the sultan did not force the Christians to convert and then provide a number of instances in which it was official policy for Christians to convert to Islam? e.g. the "instances of forced mass and individual conversion" and the official policy requiring 1/5th of young male children to be taken from their homes and forced to convert and join the army. It is more than fair in light of that policy alone to say the Turkish policy was forceful conversion - or at least restate the Turkish history part to reflect that sentiment. In fact, the entire Turkish section needs to be expanded, Turkish rule remains a very sensitive point for Bulgarians, and there is more than ample evidence Turkish rule was a bit more sinister than the kind of banevalent neglect hints at.
At least a point should be made about the use of the term "Blood Tax" - that is an important part of Bulgarian history, politics, and national identity and is indivorcable from the time of Turkish rule.
- Good point... maybe somebody should start on that
OK, the Rimocatholic and Grecoorthodox churches split IN 1054. Look at the year stating in which the Bulgarians became Orthodox Christians in the article! Can anyone explain it??? Sargeras 17:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
The information here is very insufficient. Personally, I added more about Khan Krum's reign-about the laws he introduced(I took it from the article on Krum). I suggest that more information be added and, subsequently, the article to be broken into series.-Deyan, Bulgaria.
I SEE THE INFORMATION THAT I ADDED WAS ERASED. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY, SINCE THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF BG HISTORY. THE PERSON WHO ERASED IT MUST BE REALLY DUMB,INDEED.-DEYAN
Dear Deyan, see what you wrote:
"Khan Krum was also known for the first Bulgarian written laws, which, in what may be the earliest example of state social policy in history, ensured subsidies to beggars and state protection to the poor of all Bulgarians. Through his laws he became known as a magnanimous ruler, bringing Slavs and Bulgars into a centralized state. Drinking, slander and robbery were severely punished under Krum, an extraordinary personality that has impressed many prominent Europeans for many centuries."
First of all these "written laws" are known just from one source - the Byzantine Lexicon Suidas, which is compilated many time after Krum's death. (You could check this link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14328a.htm.) There is significant group of Historians who have doubts of existence or at least the proper essence of these laws. There aren't any Bulgarian evidences about them. Second. It is an absurdity to define these (supposed!) laws as first state social policy in the History. This stament surely reveals lack of knowledge about History... There are numerous examples about such kind of state policy in many ancient societies. Do you wish to give you more information? Third. Traditionally in the Bulgarian science the very proces of centralization is thought as connected with the rule of khan Omurtag. Fourth. Are you capable, dear Deyan, to give arguments that khan Krum really impressed many prominent Europeans for many centuries? Finally. Am I dumb? I think your ideas are not appropriate for this site. P. s. Deyan, I must say I could agree with formulation as "According to some late sources khan Krum implemented law reform intending to reduce the poverty and to strengthen the social ties in his significant enlarged state." Would you agree with this variant?
Dear Anonymous, I don't know whether you're dumb or not but you haven't read what I have said. I SAID THAT I TOOK IT FROM THE ARTICLE ON KRUM. I haven't payed attention to the words "the first laws", my fault, sorry. Of course, you're right about this, only a dumb person would argue. Yet, again, I don't agree with the way you have edited it because it gives very insufficient information. For a nation, it's first laws are a key event.
Dear Deyan, I'm afraid there are too many articles on khan Krum and many of them are examples for a patriotic mithology rather than a proper historiography. I agree that the whole review of Bulgarian History in Wikipedia is too brief and couldn't create reliable idea about Bulgarian past... But I couldn't dare to write more widely. It must be a systematic revision with clear conception. This is quite hard not only because there are many points of view about many problems in the tradition of the historical researches, but even modern popular myths as these created and supported from laical persons like Petar Dobrev... Finally, I have to say that supposed laws of Krum (other Byzantine Historians who described his reign and lived not too far from his time didn't mention anything about the existence of law reform although that reform consists of really spectacular and not typical regulations) could not be dedefined as "first laws for a nation". There are reasons to think that the first laws which described the structure and the methods of a state harmony were founded in the times of khan Asparoukh.
Yes,what you're saying is logical, but can you show me some sources, links, etc.? In Bulgaria, it is widely accepted and agreed that Krum's laws were the first that really established order and formed an adequate state policy.-Deyan
Dear Deyan, Then how must be treated the pact between the Seven slav tribes and Severs and the motley group of khan Asparoukh? Planned systematic fortification of the whole territory of the lands of the federation during first decades after 681? Clear territorial division between slavs and protobulgars? Lack of information about internal religious and cultural conflicts from 681 to 814 although scientists such prof. V. Zlatarski supposed existence ot pro-bulgarian and pro-slavic parties among aristocrasy in the second part of 8th century? Information about my point of view you could reach in the texts of a leading contemporary archaeologist Rasho Rashev. - Anonymos
Dear Anonymous, look, maybe it's best to leave it in as it is for now. There are sources from where you can get proves of Krum's laws;amazingly enough, I can't find them in the net yet.-Deyan.
Dear Deyan, I'll cite "History of Bulgaria" in 14 volumes from Bulgarian science academy's team, volume II, Sofia, 1981, p. 144, about Krum's laws: "Information about them contains only one source - the well-known Suidas Lexicon." Further from the same text: "These laws themselves as exposed from Suidas carry to some extent legendary character, and some of them are refuted from other information about bulgarian realities at these times." - Anonymous. "Dear Deyan, Then how must be treated the pact between the Seven slav tribes and Severs and the motley group of khan Asparoukh? Planned systematic fortification of the whole territory of the lands of the federation during first decades after 681? Clear territorial division between slavs and protobulgars? Lack of information about internal religious and cultural conflicts from 681 to 814 although scientists such prof. V. Zlatarski supposed existence ot pro-bulgarian and pro-slavic parties among aristocrasy in the second part of 8th century? Information about my point of view you could reach in the texts of a leading contemporary archaeologist Rasho Rashev. - Anonymos" .........There are no any federation between proto bulgars and slaves in this period681 - 814 or U must proove it-- Иваннт ( talk) 09:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Is it really worth mentioning? It's an interesting new theory, but it has some serious flaws... the Bulgarian language is completely Slavic and I wouldn't say the Slavic Bulgarian language of the time was so similar to the Bulgar language, even if it was Iranian (thus Indo-European) and not Turkic, as proposed by this theory. Dimitrov emphasises that the Bulgars that settled in the are were quite many, enough to defeat a (if I remember correctly) 60,000 Byzantine army led by the emperor himself. I would estimate the number of all the Bulgars that came at about 120,000 (at most), but Dimitrov's theory states that the Slavs were less than people think and therefore the Bulgars were as many as the Slavs or even outnumbered them. His theory doesn't answer the question why would the state adopt a Slavic language, and not the Bulgar one, if the Bulgars were as many as the Slavs, provided that the rulers of Bulgaria at that time were Bulgars, as well as all the nobles and the whole administration. Also, if the two languages "merged", there would be more Bulgar traces in the Bulgarian language, not just a couple of words. Old Bulgarian (Old Church Slavonic) is the first Slavonic language attested in writing, thereby influencing almost all other Slavic languages... you can't call that a language a semi-Slavic blend, and this is easy to prove. And besides, a funny part of the theory saids that the reason why the Bulgarian rulers at some time began to carry Slavic names was because the Slav wives of the tsars were insisting on this, which made me laugh the first time I read it. Also, as far as I know, almost none of the Bulgar tradition and folklore is preserved nowadays in Bulgaria, which is also an argument for the Slavic assimilation. We have a Slavic language, Slavic culture, names and so on. Dimitrov also says that the Bulgarians are physically different from the Slavs, which I oppose. I've been many times to Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, other South Slavic countries, and if I met other South Slavs in Bulgaria I wouldn't say they're foreigners before hearing them speak. It's normal that we're a bit different from East and West Slavs (Russians, Czechs, Poles), after all, we've been living south on the Balkans for about 1500 years now. -- TodorBozhinov 11:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Bojidar's theory is not without merit. However, he is not a highly trained and an accomplished scholar who would develop a strong theory and defend every point of it meticulously and with intellectual fervour. Again, this doesn't mean he cannot have good ideas ... In defence of his theory I'd like to state that his initial explanation seems about right. A small unit of Bulgarian soldiers would not be able to defeat a regular Byzantine army. Some people estimate the whole wave of migration to have numbered approximately a million. This includes women (where polygamy was not uncommon), old people and children. What happens later has changed the demographics substantially. 1.Constant warfare, where the Bulgar warriors bore most of the brunt 2.Later and more intense Slavic migrations 3.Slaughter of many Bulgar nobles (and their families) by Boris on two occasions and later by the Russian and Byzantine invasion 4.Slavic inclusion has also been part of the Khans' strategy to balance the power of the Bulgar nobles (Kaloyan)
The names of the subarticles: History of Independent Bulgaria and History of Democratic Bulgaria are not very well chosen. Independent Bulgaria (1878-1940) was also democratic, while Democratic Bulgaria (1990-) is also independent. :-) bogdan 19:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
History of Independent Bulgaria article begins with:
However, Russo-Turkish War, 1877–1878 says :
Which of the two is wrong? bogdan 19:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The San Stefano Treaty was for independance (and, much larger Bulgaria), but the Congress of Berlin "The independence of Bulgaria, however, was denied: it was "guaranteed" autonomy and guarantees against Turkish oppression" - that is. And with the "Unification of Bulgaria" revolt in 1885 (why nowhere mentioned?!?) there was the actual independance ot Bulgaria acnowledged by the 'European Great Powers'. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin%2C_1878 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin 83.228.1.116OhuBohu
Don't you think the general History of Bulgaria should be a fully informative article that sums up the most important events of Bulgarian history, rather than just a page where to choose a certain period of history to read about? I mean having the most important information divided into paragraphs and included in the article, just attaching a main article to each paragraph. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → Talk 22:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
The map 'Bulgaria-(893-927)-TsarSimeon-byTodorBozhinov.png' is not unsourced. As a matter of fact, it originates in the 1979 Bulgarian Military Atlas. Some inaccuracies are worth correcting though, e.g. there was neither 'Serbia' nor 'Hungary' in the early Tenth Century. Apcbg 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The image is POV because it presents only one point of view, the one of the Bulgarian historians. The POVs of others, including Ostrogorsky and Britannica are not presented. bogdan 14:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
From "A Concise History of Bulgaria", by Richard J. Crampton, Cambridge University Press, 1997:
bogdan 17:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is the passage from Runciman (pp. 149-150) written in the 30's I was referring to:
I've given a look to the three historical atlases I've got; one is of no use, as it doesn't have any map of the First Bulgarian Empire; but the other two are concord with what I said about Ostrogorsky's maps, i.e. the northern border was the Danube and the southern border didn't strech to the Aegaean.-- Aldux 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I hope you're still there :) A few Romanian Wikipedians have questioned the degree of Bulgarian rule over the territories north of the Danube (from the defeat of the Avar Khaganate by Krum till the time of Samuil), and claim it's "theoritical" and not continuous, but instead periodical, and there was little evidence of it. I tried to defend the position that these territories were continuously part of the Bulgarian Empire, but I'm not an expert on the subject and have no access to the primary sources that this is based on. Could you please help settle the issue? You may like to read User talk:Bogdangiusca#Map of Bulgaria. Thanks in advance! Todor → Bozhinov 10:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
So I edited the map to show the disputed regions. I kind of suck with the software though, so I welcome people to improve on it. - Francis Tyers · 09:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The reasons I was sceptical of the claim that Bulgarian rule north of the Danube was completely obliterated by the Magyars (and Pechenegs) can be found in the following Wikipedia articles. They are about Bulgarian provincial governors and their descendants (some of whom are claimed by some Romanian historians to have been Vlach or simply "Slav"). There are good maps provided with each article.
So it seems to me that the Hungarians originally settled west of the Tisza and then set out to conquer the Bulgarian dominions and vassals in Transylvania and Banat. And it is likely that some (but definitely not all) of those territories were still under Bulgarian rule at Simeon's death and even later.
Here are a couple of other maps, accompanying the original source (Gesta Hungarorum).
The map of the First Bulgarian Empire is incorrect. Just look at its borders! -- PaxEquilibrium 22:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am not sure about Bulgaria's borders on that map, but the information it says about Hungary is wrong. Hungary's name doesn't derive from the Huns and present-day hungarians aren't descendands from the huns. --Georgi Zenopyan, 17:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Do we have a source for that? The arrival of the Slavs appears to coincide in time with the disappearance of those tribes and languages, so it could be that they were simply assimilated. bogdan 09:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed the name of the section "Under Byzantine rule" to "Byzantine Bulgaria" because at this time Bulgaria was a thema in the Byzantine Empire - thema Bulgaria. Lantonov ( talk) 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about you guys but I think the section on the First Bulgarian empire is way too long and doesn't sound like an encyclopedia. It needs to be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naru12333 ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of Bulgaria's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bakalov":
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help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:58, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Folks, would like to propose changing the headings of the side menu from Byzantine conquest to Comitopuli Period and Ottoman conquest to Late Second Empire. These periods include a lot more than the conflicts with Byzantium and Ottomans and can be expanded to include things like the Genoa invasions during the second Bulgarian Empire and Comitopuli was with Hungary. Thoughts? Hispaniolaz ( talk) 19:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
No. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 14:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
According to Encyclopedia Britannica: Bulgaria lost its independence in 1018 and remained subject to Byzantium for more than a century and a half, until 1185. With the collapse of the first Bulgarian state, the Bulgarian church fell under the domination of Greek ecclesiastics who took control of the see of Ohrid and attempted to replace the Bulgarian Slavic liturgy with a Greek liturgy. [4] Jingiby ( talk) 17:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
"and is generally accepted as having good freedom of speech and human rights record.[103]" (the last but one sentence). The external link is dead (I only find a Bulgaria country study from 1993) . Has someone new and reliable facts ? -- Neun-x ( talk) 20:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
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632 is when Kubrat established Great Bulgaria, not 681. 681 is when Asparukh established modern Bulgaria. Just read on in the article Dannywinrow ( talk) 10:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Exactly, so why on earth do you keep changing the date in the article for the creation of Great Bulgaria to 681? The article is inconsistent with itself and this really is a simple change. Read the whole paragraph and the paragraphs further on about this period. It's embarrassing to have a page with inconsistent logic and so I helped you by fixing it. I haven't got the time to continuously battle you with changes if you feel you are some steward of logical inconsistency. At least do yourself the decency to read and understand why it should be changed. Huntedhippo ( talk) 09:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)