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How do you pronounce his name? Can someone provide an IPA transcription? 128.12.32.199 22:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The pronunciation is based on the pronunciation of the vowels eta and omikron. Thus, it is "Hey-si-awed." Sorry, I do not know IPA.
Aeolic looses the consonant H, so ησίοδος would be pronounced /ɛsiɔðas/ (eh-see-oh-thas) /isiɔðas/ (ee-see-oh-thas) or even just /siɔðas/ (see-oh-thas) when spelled Ἡσίοδος. Though, I am not familiar with η being accented like that in Aeolic... Looks like someone got it confused with Attic, which is wrong. One thing is certain, The first letter is not HEH. Lostubes ( talk) 17:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm skeptical of some of the anon's edits [1]; but without an agreed-upon authority, it's hard to know whether to revert. Stan 14:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
There are, understandably, several references to Hesiod's Works and Days in this article, however, all links redirect back to this page. I'm not entirely sure the best way to remedy this, however. Any advice left on my talk page would be appreciated, then I'll do it if no-one else wants to. Just thought I'd point it out! Holypeanut 18:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Wetman ( talk) 02:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC) .
Here it states that The Shield of Heracles survives in its complete form. However it says on Shield of Heracles that it is but a fragment. Which is correct? 83.92.42.149 13:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In order to avoid gratious reverts let's make this issue simple. This article started with BC/AD and was unilaterly changed by User:Neutrality towards the supposedly "neutral" BCE/CE which is unknown by a substantial portion of English-speakers. This change was contrary to the rules (and the agreement) and was never accepted (or stable) being reverted several times towards the original one. I restored the original system BC/AD (which is the most common and well-known dating system). Flamarande ( talk) 17:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Should the dates be expressed as BCE/CE or BC/AD Dejvid ( talk) 18:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
That is to say, should this page be BCE. So supoort = BCE, Oppose= BC. Dejvid ( talk) 20:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Given a) the the original state of the article was "BC", b) the 2008 changes may or may not have had consensus and there was no substantial reason for the change, and c) it appears throughout the article's history there has been a back and forth between the two styles, indicating there has never been a consensus one way or the other, my opinion is that the original style of the article should be maintained, and BC/AD be used. Singularity42 ( talk) 17:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I was coming to this discussion, hoping that this would be a simple matter of one side presenting the reasons for using CE/BCE, & the other presenting their reasons for AD/BC. Instead, this appears to be a quarrel over whether certain rules were broken -- another sterile exercise in wikilawyering, & entrapping everyone involved in their own purgatory of wikistress & making enemies over trivialities & technicalities.
Once upon a time, when the entire CE/BCE vs. AD/BC debate first emerged, I had hoped that instead of settling on one style or another, cooler heads could develop a procedure for moving articles from one style to another, preferably using existing processes (for example, WP:BRD). I'll admit that I prefer using the AD/BC style, but that's because it's how I think. Were someone to examine one of the articles I have been the primary (if not the only non-trivial) contributor to, then ask me if she/he could convert the system from AD/BC to CE/BCE, I'd probably say yes -- & be content to live with the change because someone took the time & effort to solicit my opinion. If someone were to do the same thing -- but include a persuasive explanation for the change -- I'd be even more likely to not only agree, but help them maintain the change against other editors. But if someone were to come along & change this style simply because of some policy reason (e.g., the editor who created the article, who never touched it again, & may not even be active on Wikipedia any more, used one style & I changed it to another while undeniably improving the article), I'd be very annoyed & think the person was simply using the rules to be disruptive.
In short, the whole point WP:ERA was intended to address was to reduce edit wars over using CE/BCE or AD/BC; if a consensus develops that one style is better for that article than another, it shouldn't matter which style is originally used. Just change it then. Otherwise, since either style is acceptable, leave it the fuck alone, & use your time on the rest of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 22:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
For those of you who set store by the format used at the time of creation please check the history for yourself. Click on the actual earliest version shown and then click on the "preceding" link. This page goes back to 2001 and there was a conversion around that time that entailed the loss of some pages editing. Hence it is impossible to be sure of the first version and the edit description suggests that it was BCE at least briefly before the earliest edit. This to me illustrates why stable version is a better test than original version. Dejvid ( talk) 19:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me for being honest, but I don't like how some users (like "Neutrality") are imposing their so-called "neutral dating" through trickery and deceit because of dubious reasons (ie: simple political correctness, entangled with with a varying amount of anti-Christian and anti-Western bias). I honestly despise ppl which whine "how the BC/AD automatically hurts the personal sensibilities of non-Christians", and use this piteful excuse to twist a whole language along PC-lines. The English language is not supposed to be "neutral", it is supposed to be English. Mark my words: a PC-language is de facto
Newspeak.
On a personal note I wish to make clear that I'm a proud atheist; however atheism doesn't doesn't mean that I'm obliged to despise Christianity (or religion as a whole). BC/AD certainly has Christian origins but these days it simply is the common dating system of this world and used as such by the overwhelming majority of the English-speaking world, nothing more and nothing less. Flamarande ( talk) 21:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
As an outside and impartial editor, I would like to assist this RfC, but I need to clarify a few things first. Obviously, WP:ERA applies. Generally, BC/AD and BCE/CE are equally acceptable practices on Wikipedia (all the discussion above about how one is more preferrable to the other is irrelevant to correct style for this article - raise it at WT:DATE instead). What we need to do is apply the following guideline: "Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors." So before I add my comments, I would like to just confirm my understanding of the background of this issue. If I am wrong, please let me know.
Have I covered it properly? Singularity42 ( talk) 17:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Some time ago I responded to a request for a citation about dating for Hesiod and I supplied one from M.L.West's Hesiod: Theogony OUP 1966 page 40. In West's own words: "it is hardly possible to consider any date for him later than 650 BC. Nor, I think, can we consider any date earlier than 750." This was paraphrased in the article as "No date before 750 BC or later than 650 BC fits the evidence." Yet this has now been rephrased by User:Quadalpha to "generally thought by scholars to have been active around 700 BC", with this edit tag: rm from first paragraph strongly worded material still under debate, 00.42 17 Oct. The new edit still uses the West citation. Beats me! McZeus ( talk) 07:43, 18 October 2010 (UTC) No my mistake - I was too generous: the West citation has actually been removed and replaced with one from a less authoritative source i.e. The Oxford History of the Classical World. McZeus ( talk) 07:59, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi Quad and thanks for courteous reply. I don't see that there is much difference between your phrasing and mine (ie 'around 700' fits the framework 750-650) - hence my puzzlement about the change in phrasing, the critical edit summary and above all the sacrifice of a good citation. I certainly think the West citation should be reinstated and there is no reason to sacrifice the one you have supplied. You can keep your wording, if you like. I wasn't intending to do much on this article and I'll be interested to see what you come up with. If you want to banish any citations from the present article, it should be the one to the OCD, also in the lede. Thanks. McZeus ( talk) 23:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes the phrasing is fine. I also reinstated the Griffin citation (Ox.Hist.Class.World) since it's covered in the phrasing. Sorry if I sounded a bit pushy but alarm bells do tend to go off when cited material is deleted. Look forward to your next edit. (:}) McZeus ( talk) 04:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC) I just checked out the editor who first cited Griffin - you're right: it wasn't you - it was me! I added both Griffin and West here I forgot about that. Anyhow, I think we should keep both. McZeus ( talk) 05:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm undertaking a much needed new edit of this article. Problems with the current version include lack of sourcing and content forking e.g. it has 2 sections titled Works and Days and Theogony, though we already have articles for these works, and the documentary support for these sections is limited to the the primary sources themselves and an OCD article by West. I'm not doing a major overhaul however and I expect to be finished within a week or so of this notice. My texts so far:
I expect to dig up some online sources as well.
Thanks! Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 00:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I got some work done here but lost interest for the moment at least. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 10:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Here] is a copy of old book by Hugh Evalyan-White, titled Hesiod, Homeric Hymns and Homerica, which gives an overview of works ascribed to Hesiod. So far this article lacks any source for that section and I may use this for want of better. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 01:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC) Actually this] is a better copy since it keeps the original Greek and the page numbers of the old Loeb version. Anyway, until something better turns up, this will do. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 02:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Brills Companion to Hesiod costs Heaps and I am concluding that you must be a rich electronic signal. I might get the new Loeb but I already have West's Theog. and a print out of WD, which suit my own purposes. If I edit here with HEW as a source, you can mend it or replace it as you like. I'm just fiddling with possibilities. But thanks for advice. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 02:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is another source for future editing of the article - Ralph Rosen's Hesiod and Homer, with citations. I might borrow from it shamelessly, when and if I get around to doing more edits here. Nobody else may raid it without my permission or a small fee. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 03:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I've moved the Pseudo-Seneca to the top, and the photograph of Helicon down to the "life" section where Helicon is actually mentioned. The Pseudo-Seneca is maybe not the best picture to have at the top, but I found it extremely irritating to have a landscape photograph for a biographical article.— Austriacus ( talk) 05:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
They are not pensioners. They are young, enthusiastic scholars on a research expedition. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 08:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Article needs a section on transmission. I've removed this unsourced paragraph for later inclusion:
I won't do the work myself (at least, not any time soon). Just tidying up. McOoee ( talk) 21:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
mɛ Lostubes ( talk) 12:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
what I'm saying is, is that it isn't HEH-see-oh-das, it is eh-see-oh-das(thas). the consonant "H" isn't present. eta is a vowel. Lostubes ( talk) 01:55, 18 May 2013 (UTC) All you have to do is look at the Greek spelling. Ἡσίοδος the IPA spelling should be 'Ɛsioðos. Lostubes ( talk) 02:03, 18 May 2013 (UTC) In the Greek: H=EH, σ=SSS, ί=eee, ο= oh/ah, δ= th/d, ο=oh/ah, ς=sss Lostubes ( talk) 02:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Help:IPA_for_Greek Lostubes ( talk) 02:13, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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I don't know if it is possible for anyone to expand on the merits or otherwise of Hesiod's poetry. The article seems to imply that he was incompetent. Particularly, i wonder if differing (reconstructed) pronunciations, and dead-language lenses, might distort reception of his "unflattering hobnails". Untitled50reg ( talk) 15:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
The article puts Hesiod as meaning "he who emits the voice". However, there is no source for this, and everything I can find puts Hesiod as a word of uncertain etymology. I think it should at least have a qualifier. The ablaut shifts and vowel length shifts necessary to support the ἵημι *ϝοδήν hypothesis are unlikely in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegreatman212 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hesiod article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
How do you pronounce his name? Can someone provide an IPA transcription? 128.12.32.199 22:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The pronunciation is based on the pronunciation of the vowels eta and omikron. Thus, it is "Hey-si-awed." Sorry, I do not know IPA.
Aeolic looses the consonant H, so ησίοδος would be pronounced /ɛsiɔðas/ (eh-see-oh-thas) /isiɔðas/ (ee-see-oh-thas) or even just /siɔðas/ (see-oh-thas) when spelled Ἡσίοδος. Though, I am not familiar with η being accented like that in Aeolic... Looks like someone got it confused with Attic, which is wrong. One thing is certain, The first letter is not HEH. Lostubes ( talk) 17:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm skeptical of some of the anon's edits [1]; but without an agreed-upon authority, it's hard to know whether to revert. Stan 14:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
There are, understandably, several references to Hesiod's Works and Days in this article, however, all links redirect back to this page. I'm not entirely sure the best way to remedy this, however. Any advice left on my talk page would be appreciated, then I'll do it if no-one else wants to. Just thought I'd point it out! Holypeanut 18:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Wetman ( talk) 02:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC) .
Here it states that The Shield of Heracles survives in its complete form. However it says on Shield of Heracles that it is but a fragment. Which is correct? 83.92.42.149 13:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In order to avoid gratious reverts let's make this issue simple. This article started with BC/AD and was unilaterly changed by User:Neutrality towards the supposedly "neutral" BCE/CE which is unknown by a substantial portion of English-speakers. This change was contrary to the rules (and the agreement) and was never accepted (or stable) being reverted several times towards the original one. I restored the original system BC/AD (which is the most common and well-known dating system). Flamarande ( talk) 17:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Should the dates be expressed as BCE/CE or BC/AD Dejvid ( talk) 18:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
That is to say, should this page be BCE. So supoort = BCE, Oppose= BC. Dejvid ( talk) 20:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Given a) the the original state of the article was "BC", b) the 2008 changes may or may not have had consensus and there was no substantial reason for the change, and c) it appears throughout the article's history there has been a back and forth between the two styles, indicating there has never been a consensus one way or the other, my opinion is that the original style of the article should be maintained, and BC/AD be used. Singularity42 ( talk) 17:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I was coming to this discussion, hoping that this would be a simple matter of one side presenting the reasons for using CE/BCE, & the other presenting their reasons for AD/BC. Instead, this appears to be a quarrel over whether certain rules were broken -- another sterile exercise in wikilawyering, & entrapping everyone involved in their own purgatory of wikistress & making enemies over trivialities & technicalities.
Once upon a time, when the entire CE/BCE vs. AD/BC debate first emerged, I had hoped that instead of settling on one style or another, cooler heads could develop a procedure for moving articles from one style to another, preferably using existing processes (for example, WP:BRD). I'll admit that I prefer using the AD/BC style, but that's because it's how I think. Were someone to examine one of the articles I have been the primary (if not the only non-trivial) contributor to, then ask me if she/he could convert the system from AD/BC to CE/BCE, I'd probably say yes -- & be content to live with the change because someone took the time & effort to solicit my opinion. If someone were to do the same thing -- but include a persuasive explanation for the change -- I'd be even more likely to not only agree, but help them maintain the change against other editors. But if someone were to come along & change this style simply because of some policy reason (e.g., the editor who created the article, who never touched it again, & may not even be active on Wikipedia any more, used one style & I changed it to another while undeniably improving the article), I'd be very annoyed & think the person was simply using the rules to be disruptive.
In short, the whole point WP:ERA was intended to address was to reduce edit wars over using CE/BCE or AD/BC; if a consensus develops that one style is better for that article than another, it shouldn't matter which style is originally used. Just change it then. Otherwise, since either style is acceptable, leave it the fuck alone, & use your time on the rest of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 22:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
For those of you who set store by the format used at the time of creation please check the history for yourself. Click on the actual earliest version shown and then click on the "preceding" link. This page goes back to 2001 and there was a conversion around that time that entailed the loss of some pages editing. Hence it is impossible to be sure of the first version and the edit description suggests that it was BCE at least briefly before the earliest edit. This to me illustrates why stable version is a better test than original version. Dejvid ( talk) 19:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me for being honest, but I don't like how some users (like "Neutrality") are imposing their so-called "neutral dating" through trickery and deceit because of dubious reasons (ie: simple political correctness, entangled with with a varying amount of anti-Christian and anti-Western bias). I honestly despise ppl which whine "how the BC/AD automatically hurts the personal sensibilities of non-Christians", and use this piteful excuse to twist a whole language along PC-lines. The English language is not supposed to be "neutral", it is supposed to be English. Mark my words: a PC-language is de facto
Newspeak.
On a personal note I wish to make clear that I'm a proud atheist; however atheism doesn't doesn't mean that I'm obliged to despise Christianity (or religion as a whole). BC/AD certainly has Christian origins but these days it simply is the common dating system of this world and used as such by the overwhelming majority of the English-speaking world, nothing more and nothing less. Flamarande ( talk) 21:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
As an outside and impartial editor, I would like to assist this RfC, but I need to clarify a few things first. Obviously, WP:ERA applies. Generally, BC/AD and BCE/CE are equally acceptable practices on Wikipedia (all the discussion above about how one is more preferrable to the other is irrelevant to correct style for this article - raise it at WT:DATE instead). What we need to do is apply the following guideline: "Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors." So before I add my comments, I would like to just confirm my understanding of the background of this issue. If I am wrong, please let me know.
Have I covered it properly? Singularity42 ( talk) 17:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Some time ago I responded to a request for a citation about dating for Hesiod and I supplied one from M.L.West's Hesiod: Theogony OUP 1966 page 40. In West's own words: "it is hardly possible to consider any date for him later than 650 BC. Nor, I think, can we consider any date earlier than 750." This was paraphrased in the article as "No date before 750 BC or later than 650 BC fits the evidence." Yet this has now been rephrased by User:Quadalpha to "generally thought by scholars to have been active around 700 BC", with this edit tag: rm from first paragraph strongly worded material still under debate, 00.42 17 Oct. The new edit still uses the West citation. Beats me! McZeus ( talk) 07:43, 18 October 2010 (UTC) No my mistake - I was too generous: the West citation has actually been removed and replaced with one from a less authoritative source i.e. The Oxford History of the Classical World. McZeus ( talk) 07:59, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi Quad and thanks for courteous reply. I don't see that there is much difference between your phrasing and mine (ie 'around 700' fits the framework 750-650) - hence my puzzlement about the change in phrasing, the critical edit summary and above all the sacrifice of a good citation. I certainly think the West citation should be reinstated and there is no reason to sacrifice the one you have supplied. You can keep your wording, if you like. I wasn't intending to do much on this article and I'll be interested to see what you come up with. If you want to banish any citations from the present article, it should be the one to the OCD, also in the lede. Thanks. McZeus ( talk) 23:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes the phrasing is fine. I also reinstated the Griffin citation (Ox.Hist.Class.World) since it's covered in the phrasing. Sorry if I sounded a bit pushy but alarm bells do tend to go off when cited material is deleted. Look forward to your next edit. (:}) McZeus ( talk) 04:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC) I just checked out the editor who first cited Griffin - you're right: it wasn't you - it was me! I added both Griffin and West here I forgot about that. Anyhow, I think we should keep both. McZeus ( talk) 05:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm undertaking a much needed new edit of this article. Problems with the current version include lack of sourcing and content forking e.g. it has 2 sections titled Works and Days and Theogony, though we already have articles for these works, and the documentary support for these sections is limited to the the primary sources themselves and an OCD article by West. I'm not doing a major overhaul however and I expect to be finished within a week or so of this notice. My texts so far:
I expect to dig up some online sources as well.
Thanks! Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 00:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I got some work done here but lost interest for the moment at least. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 10:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Here] is a copy of old book by Hugh Evalyan-White, titled Hesiod, Homeric Hymns and Homerica, which gives an overview of works ascribed to Hesiod. So far this article lacks any source for that section and I may use this for want of better. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 01:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC) Actually this] is a better copy since it keeps the original Greek and the page numbers of the old Loeb version. Anyway, until something better turns up, this will do. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 02:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Brills Companion to Hesiod costs Heaps and I am concluding that you must be a rich electronic signal. I might get the new Loeb but I already have West's Theog. and a print out of WD, which suit my own purposes. If I edit here with HEW as a source, you can mend it or replace it as you like. I'm just fiddling with possibilities. But thanks for advice. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 02:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is another source for future editing of the article - Ralph Rosen's Hesiod and Homer, with citations. I might borrow from it shamelessly, when and if I get around to doing more edits here. Nobody else may raid it without my permission or a small fee. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 03:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I've moved the Pseudo-Seneca to the top, and the photograph of Helicon down to the "life" section where Helicon is actually mentioned. The Pseudo-Seneca is maybe not the best picture to have at the top, but I found it extremely irritating to have a landscape photograph for a biographical article.— Austriacus ( talk) 05:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
They are not pensioners. They are young, enthusiastic scholars on a research expedition. Eyeless in Gaza ( talk) 08:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Article needs a section on transmission. I've removed this unsourced paragraph for later inclusion:
I won't do the work myself (at least, not any time soon). Just tidying up. McOoee ( talk) 21:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
mɛ Lostubes ( talk) 12:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
what I'm saying is, is that it isn't HEH-see-oh-das, it is eh-see-oh-das(thas). the consonant "H" isn't present. eta is a vowel. Lostubes ( talk) 01:55, 18 May 2013 (UTC) All you have to do is look at the Greek spelling. Ἡσίοδος the IPA spelling should be 'Ɛsioðos. Lostubes ( talk) 02:03, 18 May 2013 (UTC) In the Greek: H=EH, σ=SSS, ί=eee, ο= oh/ah, δ= th/d, ο=oh/ah, ς=sss Lostubes ( talk) 02:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Help:IPA_for_Greek Lostubes ( talk) 02:13, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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I don't know if it is possible for anyone to expand on the merits or otherwise of Hesiod's poetry. The article seems to imply that he was incompetent. Particularly, i wonder if differing (reconstructed) pronunciations, and dead-language lenses, might distort reception of his "unflattering hobnails". Untitled50reg ( talk) 15:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
The article puts Hesiod as meaning "he who emits the voice". However, there is no source for this, and everything I can find puts Hesiod as a word of uncertain etymology. I think it should at least have a qualifier. The ablaut shifts and vowel length shifts necessary to support the ἵημι *ϝοδήν hypothesis are unlikely in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegreatman212 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)