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Where the hell did you come with that from? His mother couldnt be Prussian, because if she was, then he couldnt be a Jew. He was born Jewish, then his mother was Jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.69.57.179 ( talk) 16:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC).
Ethnicity is passed through both parents, not just the mother. CommanderJamesBond ( talk) 03:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Futhermore Prussian isn't an enthicity at all. It's just a nationality. There were Saxonian Prussians, Brandenburgian Prussians, Pommeranian Prussians (you can refer to those three as German Prussians, too), Polish Prussians, Jewish Prussians, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.172.48.137 ( talk) 13:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The new translation of Ludwig Börne (ed. Jeffrey L. Sammons, Camden House, 2006) says (p. 13 n. 42, "There was an old rumor, propagated particularly by anti-Semites, that Heine's Jewish name was Chaim, but there is no evidence for it." If no one can point to a recent reliable source that confronts this, the claim should be removed from the article. Wareh 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Wac Karl Marx a friend of Heine or an acquaintance? Heine was very critical of communists, saying that though their language is different, their goal is the very same absolutism he always opposed. 75.84.113.125 ( talk) 21:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The article claimed that Heine had the following (tacky, doggerel) couplet engraved on his tombstone:
Hier liegen meine gebeine --
Wenn wären sie nur deine!
Heine.
("Here lie my bones -- if only they were yours! Heine." [1]) While I don't know whether Heine penned that verse or not, I do know they are nowhere near his tombstone. There are some excellent photographs of the grave here. There is a poem engraved, a much finer lyric that begins:
Wo wird einst des Wandermuden
Letzte Ruhestatte sein? ...
(Where will the tired wanderer's / last resting place be?), etc. So I deleted what appears to be a myth from the article. Unfortunately, it is one that might have taken firmer renewed life due to a long sojourn on this article. Best, Eliezg ( talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
in the german wikipedia it says the this poem was written in 1824. can anyone confirm this? Sundar1 ( talk) 05:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The works of Jewish poets was banned by the National Socialists. However, the Lorelei was so famous and part of German life, that is was hopeless to erase it from German life. Thus, when die Lorelei was sung as set to music or written, it was ascribed to "an unknown German poet". First Stanza: "Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten dass ich so traurig bin Ein Maerchen aus alten Zeiten Es geht mir nicht aus dem Sinn" Set to music by a well-known composer.
Hez ( talk) 22:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Hegel's influence on Heine is very tentatively stated. The inclusion of the image of Hegel giving a lecture makes it seem as though he was obviously a strong influence. According to the article, "Most important was the philosopher Hegel, whose influence on Heine is hard to gauge. He probably gave Heine and other young students the idea that history had a meaning which could be seen as progressive." Did Heine believe in Hegelian historical progress? As a matter of fact, the article quotes Heine as dreading the future when the Communists are in power. Heine wrote, "I can foresee all this and I feel deeply sorry thinking of this decline threatening my poetry and the old world order." The whole sentence on the influence of a progressive Hegelian meaning to history is not very informative. It almost sounds vacuous. Lestrade ( talk) 19:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Napoleon's Continental System is quite a large, and complicated topic. Another user has inserted a couple of off-hand references to its effect on Heine's native city of Berg, but without proving much context or explanation. I thought I might correct the language to make it sound less partisan, but he reverted me. So I thought I might just use a direct quote that the user volunteered, but then he reverted me again.
My contention is that, the way in which the CS effected the city of Berg is of course relevant to this article - but the CS as a whole and its effect on Europe isn't. Because that is a subject that has been debated for hundreds of years, and deserves more than just off-hand yet difinitive characterizations. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 08:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
[Sammons bio, p.30] Referring to 1797, the year of Heine’s birth: "At that time, however, it [the Duchy of J-B] was under the absentee rule of the Elector Palatine and, more importantly, under French occupation. French revolutionary troops had bombarded Dusseldorf and set it afire in 1794 and occupied it the following year. This period was a hard one for the city, which had to pay heavy tribute and did not find the French very pleasant masters, who remained until the Treaty of Lunéville in 1801."
[Sammons bio, p.32] on Napoleon: "But other circumstances made the regime onerous and, in time, disastrous. Napoleonic rule always involved heavy taxation as well as continuous and irritating conscription for his military adventures. Berg suffered severely, more than any European country, from Napoleon’s blockade of Europe against English economic power. The area was already becoming an industrial territory and was sensitive to inhibitions to trade; at the same time, tariff barriers kept it outside the French national economic system. Napoleon could not be prevailed upon to relieve this squeeze, and the result was a profound depression: businesses failed, industries stagnated, unemployment and criminality increased. The Rhinelanders had little desire to become Prussian, but any allegiance they might have maintained to French sovereignty was dissolved in the economic suffering caused by Napoleon’s Continental System."
On rechecking Sammons, it appears that Napoleon did not technically conquer (or re-conquer) the Duchy of J-B/Berg. It was ceded to him when Max Joseph of Bavaria joined the Confederation of the Rhine (ref: Sammons, top of page 31).
The Continental System was particularly important to Heine and his family because it may have been a leading factor in his father's bankruptcy. Sammons again (this time in Heinrich Heine: Alternative Perspectives 1985-2005 (p. 67): "Napoleonic rule was a decidedly mixed blessing for the Grand Duchy of Berg. While the territory profited from the modernization of political administration, it suffered grievous economic dislocation and depression. It is not improbable that the difficulties leading eventually to the inglorious bankruptcy of Heine's father, who was, after all, an importer of English goods, were initially rooted in Napoleon's economic blockade of the Continent. These consequences of Napoleonic rule bore much more directly on Heine's life and fate than the alleged emancipation of the Jews; yet he completely ignored them..." Paul Marston ( talk) 12:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
David Nicholls, Napoleon: A Biographical Companion, p.22: "Economically, however, French rule was a disaster for Berg. The Continental System brought trade to a virtual halt, and when a plea for economic integration with France was rejected, manufacturing relocated to the French west bank of the Rhine, adding to unemployment and the misery of the population. Economic destitution, conscription, and the hated tobacco and salt taxes caused the people of Berg to rise against French rule in 1813, when news of Napoleon’s defeat in Russia filtered through. The rising was repressed without pity, but the end was near for the artificially created Grand Duchy."
J. Christopher Herold The Age of Napoleon, pages 271-272: "[Jacques Claude] Beugnot’s adminstration [of Berg] was exemplary, but its benefits were canceled by Napoleon’s increasing exactions of contributions and manpower and by the adverse effects of the Continental System on the Grand Duchy’s industry and trade."
J.P Riley Napoleon and the World War of 1813 on the disastrous economic effects of the Continental System (p.36): "Michael Broers cites the example of the Grand Duchy of Berg, in which the resulting job losses were dramatic: some 10,000 by 1810, a contributing factor to the revolts which broke out in the Confederation of the Rhine in January 1813."
George Lefebvre From Tilsit to Waterloo (p. 257): "The Grand Duchy of Berg, strangled between the French Empire on one side and her German neighbours to the other, was in a pitiful plight. Her sales fell from 55 million currency in 1807 to 39 million currency in 1810. Trade agreements would have provided some relief but Napoleon did not encourage these, for he wanted to keep all the profits for France."
Alexander I. Grab Napoleon and the Transformation of Europe (p. 98): "In sum, Berg’s financial situation was modernised but it also imposed a heavy burden on the population.
"Even more aggravating was the serious economic damage caused by the Continental Blockade and French customs barriers. Berg possessed the most prosperous industrial base in Germany [...] To prevent competition with French industry, however, Napoleon imposed high tariffs on their imports into France and other satellites. Consequently, Berg's exports declined from 60 million francs prior to the blockade to 11 million francs in 1811." Paul Marston ( talk) 19:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Heinrich Heine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Plenty of information and illustrations here, but no indication where the information comes from for the most part. An infobox (isn't there one for poets) of some kind would be helpful. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 17:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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That Heine was (born-ie ethnically, if not practising) Jewish is not disputable, but is it normal to state someone's ethnicity/religion in the opening sentence unless ethnicity/religion is central to the person's notability? That he was later vilified as being Jewish in the Nazi era, does not make his work Jewish in character surely? Pincrete ( talk) 19:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I have removed Wandere that had been added by Sergeismart with a translation of his own, but without any context. :wikisource:Main Page|Wikisource]] may be interested in such works, but a poem without any context does not improve our readers' understanding of Heine. There were also issues with the translation; translating poetry in archaic language is no easy task. If the article should say something about Wandere, it would likely be better to rely on a professional, published translation than to come up with our own. Huon ( talk) 20:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
there are two common inaccuracies in the paragraph on Heine in the time of nazism: first, in searching through hundreds of books of the time, there has never been found a proof for the "Lorelei" given with "author unknown". Anja Oesterheld (2011). "„Verfasser unbekannt"? Der Mythos der Anonymität und Heinrich Heines Loreley". In Stephan Pabst (ed.). Anonymität und Autorschaft. Zur Literatur und Rechtsgeschichte der Namenlosigkeit (in German). Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 325–358.. See also Erhard Jöst (2008). "Eine spannungsgeladene Wirkungsgeschichte". Literaturkritik (in German) (12).. Second, Heine's books were not among those immediately forbidden and burnt by the nazis. Only in 1940 were they (along with all books by Jewish authors) forbidden. This is also stated in the above references. In addition, see "Schwarze Liste von 1933". ("black lists of books to be burned 1933) and Liste des schädlichen und unerwünschten Schrifttums. 1938. p. 55. contains one book by Heine (printed in Moscow 1935), not "all works" as, e.g., for the Manns (p. 91) or Bert Brecht (p. 16) and many others. Unfortunately, I don't have citation in English to use as sources. But I could work the above in (and would mention explicitly that no evidence has been found for the long-lived myth of the "unknown author"). Thoughts? -- Qcomp ( talk) 15:58, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I hope that everyone here agrees that humanity was born In East Africa and the habit of determining the ethnicity of a person only by his ancestors can lead us into a dead end, right? This is usually done on Wikipedia, but what if the person CLEARLY broke with their past identity, it's tradition and etc and started a new one life with new identity? This is exactly what happened to Heinrich Heine: he changed his Jewish identity and became culturally German and religiously Christian. I do not understand why the Jewish Wikipedia in hebrew understands this, recognizes him as an ethnic German, does not try to classify him as "their own", but the editors from Germany do not want to consider him a German by culture, but only by language of his works. You guys don't believe in human free will to determine their culture? It seems reasonable to me to leave reference to German people at the beginning since assimilation is an important part of his biography, which is how he started his Germanophile writings at a time when nationalism was in vogue. 31.40.131.100 ( talk) 14:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Surely, I can’t be the only one who came away from this article wondering how he got lead poisoning? Maybe this should be mentioned? Viriditas ( talk) 19:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Heinrich Heine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 13, 2019. |
Where the hell did you come with that from? His mother couldnt be Prussian, because if she was, then he couldnt be a Jew. He was born Jewish, then his mother was Jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.69.57.179 ( talk) 16:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC).
Ethnicity is passed through both parents, not just the mother. CommanderJamesBond ( talk) 03:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Futhermore Prussian isn't an enthicity at all. It's just a nationality. There were Saxonian Prussians, Brandenburgian Prussians, Pommeranian Prussians (you can refer to those three as German Prussians, too), Polish Prussians, Jewish Prussians, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.172.48.137 ( talk) 13:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The new translation of Ludwig Börne (ed. Jeffrey L. Sammons, Camden House, 2006) says (p. 13 n. 42, "There was an old rumor, propagated particularly by anti-Semites, that Heine's Jewish name was Chaim, but there is no evidence for it." If no one can point to a recent reliable source that confronts this, the claim should be removed from the article. Wareh 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Wac Karl Marx a friend of Heine or an acquaintance? Heine was very critical of communists, saying that though their language is different, their goal is the very same absolutism he always opposed. 75.84.113.125 ( talk) 21:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The article claimed that Heine had the following (tacky, doggerel) couplet engraved on his tombstone:
Hier liegen meine gebeine --
Wenn wären sie nur deine!
Heine.
("Here lie my bones -- if only they were yours! Heine." [1]) While I don't know whether Heine penned that verse or not, I do know they are nowhere near his tombstone. There are some excellent photographs of the grave here. There is a poem engraved, a much finer lyric that begins:
Wo wird einst des Wandermuden
Letzte Ruhestatte sein? ...
(Where will the tired wanderer's / last resting place be?), etc. So I deleted what appears to be a myth from the article. Unfortunately, it is one that might have taken firmer renewed life due to a long sojourn on this article. Best, Eliezg ( talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
in the german wikipedia it says the this poem was written in 1824. can anyone confirm this? Sundar1 ( talk) 05:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The works of Jewish poets was banned by the National Socialists. However, the Lorelei was so famous and part of German life, that is was hopeless to erase it from German life. Thus, when die Lorelei was sung as set to music or written, it was ascribed to "an unknown German poet". First Stanza: "Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten dass ich so traurig bin Ein Maerchen aus alten Zeiten Es geht mir nicht aus dem Sinn" Set to music by a well-known composer.
Hez ( talk) 22:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Hegel's influence on Heine is very tentatively stated. The inclusion of the image of Hegel giving a lecture makes it seem as though he was obviously a strong influence. According to the article, "Most important was the philosopher Hegel, whose influence on Heine is hard to gauge. He probably gave Heine and other young students the idea that history had a meaning which could be seen as progressive." Did Heine believe in Hegelian historical progress? As a matter of fact, the article quotes Heine as dreading the future when the Communists are in power. Heine wrote, "I can foresee all this and I feel deeply sorry thinking of this decline threatening my poetry and the old world order." The whole sentence on the influence of a progressive Hegelian meaning to history is not very informative. It almost sounds vacuous. Lestrade ( talk) 19:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Napoleon's Continental System is quite a large, and complicated topic. Another user has inserted a couple of off-hand references to its effect on Heine's native city of Berg, but without proving much context or explanation. I thought I might correct the language to make it sound less partisan, but he reverted me. So I thought I might just use a direct quote that the user volunteered, but then he reverted me again.
My contention is that, the way in which the CS effected the city of Berg is of course relevant to this article - but the CS as a whole and its effect on Europe isn't. Because that is a subject that has been debated for hundreds of years, and deserves more than just off-hand yet difinitive characterizations. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 08:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
[Sammons bio, p.30] Referring to 1797, the year of Heine’s birth: "At that time, however, it [the Duchy of J-B] was under the absentee rule of the Elector Palatine and, more importantly, under French occupation. French revolutionary troops had bombarded Dusseldorf and set it afire in 1794 and occupied it the following year. This period was a hard one for the city, which had to pay heavy tribute and did not find the French very pleasant masters, who remained until the Treaty of Lunéville in 1801."
[Sammons bio, p.32] on Napoleon: "But other circumstances made the regime onerous and, in time, disastrous. Napoleonic rule always involved heavy taxation as well as continuous and irritating conscription for his military adventures. Berg suffered severely, more than any European country, from Napoleon’s blockade of Europe against English economic power. The area was already becoming an industrial territory and was sensitive to inhibitions to trade; at the same time, tariff barriers kept it outside the French national economic system. Napoleon could not be prevailed upon to relieve this squeeze, and the result was a profound depression: businesses failed, industries stagnated, unemployment and criminality increased. The Rhinelanders had little desire to become Prussian, but any allegiance they might have maintained to French sovereignty was dissolved in the economic suffering caused by Napoleon’s Continental System."
On rechecking Sammons, it appears that Napoleon did not technically conquer (or re-conquer) the Duchy of J-B/Berg. It was ceded to him when Max Joseph of Bavaria joined the Confederation of the Rhine (ref: Sammons, top of page 31).
The Continental System was particularly important to Heine and his family because it may have been a leading factor in his father's bankruptcy. Sammons again (this time in Heinrich Heine: Alternative Perspectives 1985-2005 (p. 67): "Napoleonic rule was a decidedly mixed blessing for the Grand Duchy of Berg. While the territory profited from the modernization of political administration, it suffered grievous economic dislocation and depression. It is not improbable that the difficulties leading eventually to the inglorious bankruptcy of Heine's father, who was, after all, an importer of English goods, were initially rooted in Napoleon's economic blockade of the Continent. These consequences of Napoleonic rule bore much more directly on Heine's life and fate than the alleged emancipation of the Jews; yet he completely ignored them..." Paul Marston ( talk) 12:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
David Nicholls, Napoleon: A Biographical Companion, p.22: "Economically, however, French rule was a disaster for Berg. The Continental System brought trade to a virtual halt, and when a plea for economic integration with France was rejected, manufacturing relocated to the French west bank of the Rhine, adding to unemployment and the misery of the population. Economic destitution, conscription, and the hated tobacco and salt taxes caused the people of Berg to rise against French rule in 1813, when news of Napoleon’s defeat in Russia filtered through. The rising was repressed without pity, but the end was near for the artificially created Grand Duchy."
J. Christopher Herold The Age of Napoleon, pages 271-272: "[Jacques Claude] Beugnot’s adminstration [of Berg] was exemplary, but its benefits were canceled by Napoleon’s increasing exactions of contributions and manpower and by the adverse effects of the Continental System on the Grand Duchy’s industry and trade."
J.P Riley Napoleon and the World War of 1813 on the disastrous economic effects of the Continental System (p.36): "Michael Broers cites the example of the Grand Duchy of Berg, in which the resulting job losses were dramatic: some 10,000 by 1810, a contributing factor to the revolts which broke out in the Confederation of the Rhine in January 1813."
George Lefebvre From Tilsit to Waterloo (p. 257): "The Grand Duchy of Berg, strangled between the French Empire on one side and her German neighbours to the other, was in a pitiful plight. Her sales fell from 55 million currency in 1807 to 39 million currency in 1810. Trade agreements would have provided some relief but Napoleon did not encourage these, for he wanted to keep all the profits for France."
Alexander I. Grab Napoleon and the Transformation of Europe (p. 98): "In sum, Berg’s financial situation was modernised but it also imposed a heavy burden on the population.
"Even more aggravating was the serious economic damage caused by the Continental Blockade and French customs barriers. Berg possessed the most prosperous industrial base in Germany [...] To prevent competition with French industry, however, Napoleon imposed high tariffs on their imports into France and other satellites. Consequently, Berg's exports declined from 60 million francs prior to the blockade to 11 million francs in 1811." Paul Marston ( talk) 19:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Heinrich Heine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Plenty of information and illustrations here, but no indication where the information comes from for the most part. An infobox (isn't there one for poets) of some kind would be helpful. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 17:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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That Heine was (born-ie ethnically, if not practising) Jewish is not disputable, but is it normal to state someone's ethnicity/religion in the opening sentence unless ethnicity/religion is central to the person's notability? That he was later vilified as being Jewish in the Nazi era, does not make his work Jewish in character surely? Pincrete ( talk) 19:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I have removed Wandere that had been added by Sergeismart with a translation of his own, but without any context. :wikisource:Main Page|Wikisource]] may be interested in such works, but a poem without any context does not improve our readers' understanding of Heine. There were also issues with the translation; translating poetry in archaic language is no easy task. If the article should say something about Wandere, it would likely be better to rely on a professional, published translation than to come up with our own. Huon ( talk) 20:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
there are two common inaccuracies in the paragraph on Heine in the time of nazism: first, in searching through hundreds of books of the time, there has never been found a proof for the "Lorelei" given with "author unknown". Anja Oesterheld (2011). "„Verfasser unbekannt"? Der Mythos der Anonymität und Heinrich Heines Loreley". In Stephan Pabst (ed.). Anonymität und Autorschaft. Zur Literatur und Rechtsgeschichte der Namenlosigkeit (in German). Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 325–358.. See also Erhard Jöst (2008). "Eine spannungsgeladene Wirkungsgeschichte". Literaturkritik (in German) (12).. Second, Heine's books were not among those immediately forbidden and burnt by the nazis. Only in 1940 were they (along with all books by Jewish authors) forbidden. This is also stated in the above references. In addition, see "Schwarze Liste von 1933". ("black lists of books to be burned 1933) and Liste des schädlichen und unerwünschten Schrifttums. 1938. p. 55. contains one book by Heine (printed in Moscow 1935), not "all works" as, e.g., for the Manns (p. 91) or Bert Brecht (p. 16) and many others. Unfortunately, I don't have citation in English to use as sources. But I could work the above in (and would mention explicitly that no evidence has been found for the long-lived myth of the "unknown author"). Thoughts? -- Qcomp ( talk) 15:58, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I hope that everyone here agrees that humanity was born In East Africa and the habit of determining the ethnicity of a person only by his ancestors can lead us into a dead end, right? This is usually done on Wikipedia, but what if the person CLEARLY broke with their past identity, it's tradition and etc and started a new one life with new identity? This is exactly what happened to Heinrich Heine: he changed his Jewish identity and became culturally German and religiously Christian. I do not understand why the Jewish Wikipedia in hebrew understands this, recognizes him as an ethnic German, does not try to classify him as "their own", but the editors from Germany do not want to consider him a German by culture, but only by language of his works. You guys don't believe in human free will to determine their culture? It seems reasonable to me to leave reference to German people at the beginning since assimilation is an important part of his biography, which is how he started his Germanophile writings at a time when nationalism was in vogue. 31.40.131.100 ( talk) 14:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Surely, I can’t be the only one who came away from this article wondering how he got lead poisoning? Maybe this should be mentioned? Viriditas ( talk) 19:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)