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I'd rather not see this article merged into Energy storage.
The Economics section seems a bit of a mess. Only the first section really discuss the economics of grid storage.
Interested to hear feedback on this - otherwise will edit away!
MickCaine ( talk) 13:52, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Do we really need to have a synopsis of every energy storage technology here? Why not just a list with links to the main page of the technologies (literally every one has a main page). It is not clear that having the brief synopsis' here actually assists the article (which is actually about the application of storage to the grid).. The energy storage page also has synopsis of the technologies - in my view, it doesn't need to be repeated here.
A table with technology, storage type (e.g. chemical, mechanical, kinetic, gravitational etc) might be suitable?
MickCaine ( talk) 14:04, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Add a section on power loops? A 100 kilometer diameter loop could store about 500 gigawatt-hours which could load level 40 gigawatt power plants at one thousandth the cost of building those plants.
http://launchloop.com/PowerLoop
173.174.69.203 (
talk) 16:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Mrand - In deleting my edits, you have once more made it appear that Pumped Storage systems can make up for lost generating capacity on windless days. The items now cite a Chinese system with 2% of national capacity and world systems with 3% of world capacity. But this is deliberate nonsense, for these systems only generate for 5 or 6 hours. What matters is kwh (or total demand over time) and if electrical energy was required to cover two days without wind (assuming all renewable energy supply) then those figures quoted would have to be reduced tenfold. In other words, the Chinese system can only cover 0.2% of demand over 2 days - much less than the article makes out.
These paragraphs need to be changed, to reflect the truth. Will you let me do it, without deleting everything again? Narwhal-tooth 11:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Your impetus for requesting a merge may be that the current grid energy storage article doesn't address the grid-connected nature of the problem specifically enough. That's a real problem, of course, but I don't think the answer is to merge the two.
Iain McClatchie 01:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've always understood "grid energy storage" to mean using the grid like a battery, so that you can firm up undependable energy sources like wind and solar. The article spends most of its time talking about storage devices connected to a grid - which is the opposite end of the way I've understood the term. -- Wtshymanski 23:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with everything said above. I had difficulty understanding the "grid energy storage" description. Rewrote in bullet format with an opening sentence that explicitly explains GES essentially word-by-word. Mostly rearranged and slightly rephrased prior text, then made more explicit the "time-of-day pricing" that makes GES useful. Scimike 14:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The article has a lot of mistakes. I fixed the most glaring ones. Most of the rest are about how the grid works and how different energy sources are used. Also, some areas need rewriting, especially the first section (the first section is everything before the "Economics of energy storage"). I think that part of the problem is that people write about how things are in their region. However, the electrical industry varies greatly geographically in the U.S., let alone other countries. For example, in much of the East, coal makes up the majority of the electricity generated, while in much of the West, there are no coal power plants at all. In the Middle East, oil can make up a large percentage of the electricity generated (77% in Egypt in 1999), while the U.S. gets very little of its electricity from oil (about 3%). Natural gas might be used primarily for peaking power in the Eastern U.S. (the article previously said that natural gas plants are peaking plants), but it is used for base load, intermediate (AKA load following) and peaking power in the West. This variation does not mean that an article cannot be written. It just means that the article must be written carefully by knowledgeable people, preferably in collaboration. -- Kjkolb 16:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
= This article is also very outdated. Recent advancements in manufacture of Lithium batteries have resulted in rather large installations of banks of batteries capable of discharging multiple megawatts or into grids during high demand. Recent discussions of the Texas rolling blackout will bring people who want to know more about this. I personally read about them at this link: https://egsa.org/Publications/Powerline-Magazine/Archives Gallomimia ( talk) 12:56, 24 February 2021 (UTC)Gallomimia at gmail
Grid energy storage is when you take electrical energy from the grid, store it, then re-inject it to the grid later. The methods of doing this, or forms, of energy storage are ways in which to accomplish the storing and then re-release of the energy. If a fuel is left unused and can be kept for a rainy day because of the use of replenishable energy sources, that's a positive thing for humanity, but its NOT grid energy storage because it was never converted to electrical energy in the first place. To call fuel conservation grid energy storage is like saying that reducing is a way of recycling - both are measures to be taken to increase efficiency, but they are different. Wikichesterdit ( talk) 21:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no move. Consensus at this time does not support a page move. PeterSymonds ( talk) 09:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Grid energy storage → Large-scale energy storage — User:Nopetro 13:18, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
A table of the : a) round-trip efficiency b) cost per kilowatt.hour c) installation cost per kilowatt.hour d) energy density (kW.h/kg + kW.h/liters) for each technology would be most welcome, as many people keep on trying to push forward forms of energy storage that could never be economically sound or inadapted for some applications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.161.59 ( talk) 13:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is this table complete gibberish? From a moment's glance it looks like most of the table data is plainly wrong. I'm tempted to WP:BOLDly fix it, but if anyone can explain what its supposed to mean, I'd be happy to stand aside.-- R.S. Peale ( talk) 03:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion the two points of information that were deleted about (1) the historical context (current power grid designed to respond on-demand) and (2) the intermittency of power sources such as wind and solar were really important. More information was added later on, but the issues of history and intermittency are not addressed. I think the article is missing something now...-- Graham Proud ( talk) 04:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
There is some text under the hydrogen topic that needs to be lifted up to a separate section, as it is relevant to all forms of grid energy storage.
Some discussion under the Economics heading does quite well but I think it deserves its own sub-heading. Any thoughts?-- Graham Proud ( talk) 01:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I heard that the Lithium–titanate battery is also being considered for use in grid energy storage. Perhaps worthy to mention it in article ? KVDP ( talk) 16:48, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Maybe this article had a wider name before ?
Should we delete the Portability section (under economics!) or move/merge it somewhere ? -
Rod57 (
talk) 23:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
MaynardClark ( talk) 23:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Also strongly agree that this section is not relevant to grid energy storage. The content much more suited to the general energy storage page (specifically, the applications section). Currently this discusses consumer electronics and utilizing batteries in transport (this is manifestly not relevant for or to grid energy storage - indeed the general energy storage page has a subsection within the application section on storage in transportation).
MaynardClark mentions V2G and other transport related applications of storage. How these interact with the grid is of course interesting and important - but how the concept of portability in and of itself is relevant grid energy storage is not clear at all. MickCaine ( talk) 13:40, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
References
meregio
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Please mention the Concrete Gravity Trains used for grid energy storage. See, for example: http://interestingengineering.com/concrete-gravity-trains-may-solve-energy-storage-problem/ This can enhance the existing section on Gravitational potential energy storage with solid masses. Thanks! -- Lbeaumont ( talk) 18:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Siemens build a new pilot for storing heat in lava stones. Hot air will be blown like a hair-dryer and stored into a rock bed. source: https://bizz-energy.com/stein_stromspeicher_von_siemens_gamesa_soll_2019_ans_netz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.13.41.220 ( talk) 09:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Please somebody who knows about this - we need a section on the history and evolution of the latest technology of energy storage, because many people don't even realise how much the technology has progressed and what difference this can make to the viability of green energy for our societies.
What is the latest on storing wind and solar and what are the implications for greening the energy supply? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.252.104.138 ( talk) 09:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
The article does not mention:
-- Genetics4good ( talk) 15:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
"The AC-to-AC efficiency of hydrogen storage has been shown to be on the order of 20 to 45%, which imposes economic constraints." What does AC-to AC mean... alternating current to alternating current? Is this the best measure of "efficiency" and can be it applied to other types of storage across the article? S C Cheese ( talk) 16:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Grid energy storage article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
I'd rather not see this article merged into Energy storage.
The Economics section seems a bit of a mess. Only the first section really discuss the economics of grid storage.
Interested to hear feedback on this - otherwise will edit away!
MickCaine ( talk) 13:52, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Do we really need to have a synopsis of every energy storage technology here? Why not just a list with links to the main page of the technologies (literally every one has a main page). It is not clear that having the brief synopsis' here actually assists the article (which is actually about the application of storage to the grid).. The energy storage page also has synopsis of the technologies - in my view, it doesn't need to be repeated here.
A table with technology, storage type (e.g. chemical, mechanical, kinetic, gravitational etc) might be suitable?
MickCaine ( talk) 14:04, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Add a section on power loops? A 100 kilometer diameter loop could store about 500 gigawatt-hours which could load level 40 gigawatt power plants at one thousandth the cost of building those plants.
http://launchloop.com/PowerLoop
173.174.69.203 (
talk) 16:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Mrand - In deleting my edits, you have once more made it appear that Pumped Storage systems can make up for lost generating capacity on windless days. The items now cite a Chinese system with 2% of national capacity and world systems with 3% of world capacity. But this is deliberate nonsense, for these systems only generate for 5 or 6 hours. What matters is kwh (or total demand over time) and if electrical energy was required to cover two days without wind (assuming all renewable energy supply) then those figures quoted would have to be reduced tenfold. In other words, the Chinese system can only cover 0.2% of demand over 2 days - much less than the article makes out.
These paragraphs need to be changed, to reflect the truth. Will you let me do it, without deleting everything again? Narwhal-tooth 11:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Your impetus for requesting a merge may be that the current grid energy storage article doesn't address the grid-connected nature of the problem specifically enough. That's a real problem, of course, but I don't think the answer is to merge the two.
Iain McClatchie 01:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've always understood "grid energy storage" to mean using the grid like a battery, so that you can firm up undependable energy sources like wind and solar. The article spends most of its time talking about storage devices connected to a grid - which is the opposite end of the way I've understood the term. -- Wtshymanski 23:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with everything said above. I had difficulty understanding the "grid energy storage" description. Rewrote in bullet format with an opening sentence that explicitly explains GES essentially word-by-word. Mostly rearranged and slightly rephrased prior text, then made more explicit the "time-of-day pricing" that makes GES useful. Scimike 14:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The article has a lot of mistakes. I fixed the most glaring ones. Most of the rest are about how the grid works and how different energy sources are used. Also, some areas need rewriting, especially the first section (the first section is everything before the "Economics of energy storage"). I think that part of the problem is that people write about how things are in their region. However, the electrical industry varies greatly geographically in the U.S., let alone other countries. For example, in much of the East, coal makes up the majority of the electricity generated, while in much of the West, there are no coal power plants at all. In the Middle East, oil can make up a large percentage of the electricity generated (77% in Egypt in 1999), while the U.S. gets very little of its electricity from oil (about 3%). Natural gas might be used primarily for peaking power in the Eastern U.S. (the article previously said that natural gas plants are peaking plants), but it is used for base load, intermediate (AKA load following) and peaking power in the West. This variation does not mean that an article cannot be written. It just means that the article must be written carefully by knowledgeable people, preferably in collaboration. -- Kjkolb 16:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
= This article is also very outdated. Recent advancements in manufacture of Lithium batteries have resulted in rather large installations of banks of batteries capable of discharging multiple megawatts or into grids during high demand. Recent discussions of the Texas rolling blackout will bring people who want to know more about this. I personally read about them at this link: https://egsa.org/Publications/Powerline-Magazine/Archives Gallomimia ( talk) 12:56, 24 February 2021 (UTC)Gallomimia at gmail
Grid energy storage is when you take electrical energy from the grid, store it, then re-inject it to the grid later. The methods of doing this, or forms, of energy storage are ways in which to accomplish the storing and then re-release of the energy. If a fuel is left unused and can be kept for a rainy day because of the use of replenishable energy sources, that's a positive thing for humanity, but its NOT grid energy storage because it was never converted to electrical energy in the first place. To call fuel conservation grid energy storage is like saying that reducing is a way of recycling - both are measures to be taken to increase efficiency, but they are different. Wikichesterdit ( talk) 21:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no move. Consensus at this time does not support a page move. PeterSymonds ( talk) 09:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Grid energy storage → Large-scale energy storage — User:Nopetro 13:18, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
A table of the : a) round-trip efficiency b) cost per kilowatt.hour c) installation cost per kilowatt.hour d) energy density (kW.h/kg + kW.h/liters) for each technology would be most welcome, as many people keep on trying to push forward forms of energy storage that could never be economically sound or inadapted for some applications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.161.59 ( talk) 13:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is this table complete gibberish? From a moment's glance it looks like most of the table data is plainly wrong. I'm tempted to WP:BOLDly fix it, but if anyone can explain what its supposed to mean, I'd be happy to stand aside.-- R.S. Peale ( talk) 03:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion the two points of information that were deleted about (1) the historical context (current power grid designed to respond on-demand) and (2) the intermittency of power sources such as wind and solar were really important. More information was added later on, but the issues of history and intermittency are not addressed. I think the article is missing something now...-- Graham Proud ( talk) 04:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
There is some text under the hydrogen topic that needs to be lifted up to a separate section, as it is relevant to all forms of grid energy storage.
Some discussion under the Economics heading does quite well but I think it deserves its own sub-heading. Any thoughts?-- Graham Proud ( talk) 01:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I heard that the Lithium–titanate battery is also being considered for use in grid energy storage. Perhaps worthy to mention it in article ? KVDP ( talk) 16:48, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\bpower-technology\.com\b
on the local blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 13:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Maybe this article had a wider name before ?
Should we delete the Portability section (under economics!) or move/merge it somewhere ? -
Rod57 (
talk) 23:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
MaynardClark ( talk) 23:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Also strongly agree that this section is not relevant to grid energy storage. The content much more suited to the general energy storage page (specifically, the applications section). Currently this discusses consumer electronics and utilizing batteries in transport (this is manifestly not relevant for or to grid energy storage - indeed the general energy storage page has a subsection within the application section on storage in transportation).
MaynardClark mentions V2G and other transport related applications of storage. How these interact with the grid is of course interesting and important - but how the concept of portability in and of itself is relevant grid energy storage is not clear at all. MickCaine ( talk) 13:40, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
References
meregio
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Please mention the Concrete Gravity Trains used for grid energy storage. See, for example: http://interestingengineering.com/concrete-gravity-trains-may-solve-energy-storage-problem/ This can enhance the existing section on Gravitational potential energy storage with solid masses. Thanks! -- Lbeaumont ( talk) 18:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Siemens build a new pilot for storing heat in lava stones. Hot air will be blown like a hair-dryer and stored into a rock bed. source: https://bizz-energy.com/stein_stromspeicher_von_siemens_gamesa_soll_2019_ans_netz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.13.41.220 ( talk) 09:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Please somebody who knows about this - we need a section on the history and evolution of the latest technology of energy storage, because many people don't even realise how much the technology has progressed and what difference this can make to the viability of green energy for our societies.
What is the latest on storing wind and solar and what are the implications for greening the energy supply? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.252.104.138 ( talk) 09:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
The article does not mention:
-- Genetics4good ( talk) 15:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
"The AC-to-AC efficiency of hydrogen storage has been shown to be on the order of 20 to 45%, which imposes economic constraints." What does AC-to AC mean... alternating current to alternating current? Is this the best measure of "efficiency" and can be it applied to other types of storage across the article? S C Cheese ( talk) 16:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)