The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Delisted. -- Assayer ( talk) 23:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
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This article in its
current version does not meet the criteria for a good article. First, some sources are either not verifiable (World Media Rights and the BBC documentary are simply not available - and I find it highly unusual to rely on documentaries) or unreliable (Jewish Virtual Library). But second, and ultimately more important, the article contains numerous factual errors and misrepresentations of the sources cited.
- Strasser was never sentenced for high treason to five years imprisonment at Landsberg. He was rounded up by the police in February 1924 and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment in May (!) 1924. He was put on probation, not at least because he had already been elected to the Bavarian Parliament (elections were on 6 April and 4 May (in the Palatinate)) 1924. To be sure, Richard J. Evans doesn't even mention that trial, let alone a five year sentence. By the way, the Beer Hall Putsch was not meant to just "seize control of Munich".
- Strasser became head of the NSDAP national organization in 1928. ("Reichsorganisationsleiter") (just look up the reference, Stachura's bio).
- The article ignores the crisis around the Kampf-Verlag and the ideological differences between Otto and Gregor Strasser. Gregor was always "Hitler's man".
- The Berlin party organization was ruled by Goebbels. I have looked up both Nicholls and Fulbrook and neither of them supports the claims of Wikipedia.
- In the mid 1920s, support for the Nazi Party was dropping.... Interesting claim, since the NSDAP was banned between November 1923 and July 1924 and reorganized in 1925. Until then it was a predominantly Bavarian splinter party and started to gain ground slowly after 1926.
- The crises which led to the Bamberg conference was not about Hitler, but about programmatic issues, namely about the socialist profile of the NSDAP and criticism of the Munich "Clique", i.e. Esser and Streicher.
- Strasser was formally replaced as Reichs leader of NSDAP propaganda at the end of 1927 by Hitler himself.
- Hitler was offered the vice chancellery in August 1932. Strasser was asked by Schleicher in December 1932.
- The weekly newspaper Die Schwarze Front was edited by Otto. Stachura say nothing about that newspaper at op. cit. p. 127.
- It is not proven, if it was Hitler who ordered Strasser to be shot. See Stachura, p. 123 on that.
I will fix some of the more serious issues soon, but IMO the article needs to be rewritten. All references have to be looked up and/or replaced by other sources. (The latest biography on Strasser is the one by Peter Stachura, published in 1983 and it's in English.) So for matters of fairness there should be a reassessment of the article anyway. I might note that some of the errors have been written into the article shortly before the article was nominated for GA review. (See the version of 21 January 2015).-- Assayer ( talk) 17:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I remember trying to help "punch this article up" some and added the Longerich, Kershaw and Hamilton; I cannot state anything about the other sources, such as Nicholls and Fulbrook, since I don't have them and did not add in that text. One has to assume some good faith of editors and reviewers. Now, with that said as to the past, if there are better RS sources and fixes that need done, then have at it. Update addendum - I have done what I can and tweaked the article with some detail and did some copy edits and added some better cites to three points. I believe the article can be improved and frankly has been already and then it can be re-viewed, if that is consensus. But I don't automatically believe delisting is needed. Kierzek ( talk) 02:15, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Delist -- when I saw "World Media Rights" in the nomination it occurred to me that editor Jonas Vinters was most likely involved; the editor was topic banned from WWII and Nazi Germany topics about a year ago. Per Talk:Gregor Strasser/GA1, it appears that "Doctor Papa Jones" from the article history and Jonas Vinters are the same editor. If they are indeed the same user, then much of the content would be highly suspect. Suggest delisting for now, and then renominating "under new management" if the article sufficiently improves for GA. This would remove questions that the name of Jonas immediately brought to my mind. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:33, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I should probably mention that the article clearly violates MOS:LEAD, since at three paragraphs the lead is too long, but one to two paragraphs should be easily accomplished. K.e.coffman, a number of questionable sources were removed from the article shortly after you posted the above, along with the material they supported. Have the problems you saw in the article been adequately addressed? Any specific places that currently raise red flags? BlueMoonset ( talk) 01:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- Closing I nominated the article for reassessment, because of numerous factual errors, misrepresentations of the sources and the use of unreliable sources. My assessment of the inaccuracies and sources has been supported by other editors. Although I worked on the more urgent issues, the article still does not address major aspects. For example, Strasser's economic program, his influence upon NSDAP Economic Program of 1932, and his influence on Strasserism are not dealt with. As was also pointed out, the lead section is not yet a concise summary and introduction to the topic. No editor has spoken in favor of the article in its current version, but consensus has it that the article would need further review and improvement to meet all of the Good article criteria. The discussion has been open for several months without further improvement of the article. Thus the article is delisted.-- Assayer ( talk) 23:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Delisted. -- Assayer ( talk) 23:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Article (
|
visual edit |
history) ·
Article talk (
|
history) ·
Watch
This article in its
current version does not meet the criteria for a good article. First, some sources are either not verifiable (World Media Rights and the BBC documentary are simply not available - and I find it highly unusual to rely on documentaries) or unreliable (Jewish Virtual Library). But second, and ultimately more important, the article contains numerous factual errors and misrepresentations of the sources cited.
- Strasser was never sentenced for high treason to five years imprisonment at Landsberg. He was rounded up by the police in February 1924 and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment in May (!) 1924. He was put on probation, not at least because he had already been elected to the Bavarian Parliament (elections were on 6 April and 4 May (in the Palatinate)) 1924. To be sure, Richard J. Evans doesn't even mention that trial, let alone a five year sentence. By the way, the Beer Hall Putsch was not meant to just "seize control of Munich".
- Strasser became head of the NSDAP national organization in 1928. ("Reichsorganisationsleiter") (just look up the reference, Stachura's bio).
- The article ignores the crisis around the Kampf-Verlag and the ideological differences between Otto and Gregor Strasser. Gregor was always "Hitler's man".
- The Berlin party organization was ruled by Goebbels. I have looked up both Nicholls and Fulbrook and neither of them supports the claims of Wikipedia.
- In the mid 1920s, support for the Nazi Party was dropping.... Interesting claim, since the NSDAP was banned between November 1923 and July 1924 and reorganized in 1925. Until then it was a predominantly Bavarian splinter party and started to gain ground slowly after 1926.
- The crises which led to the Bamberg conference was not about Hitler, but about programmatic issues, namely about the socialist profile of the NSDAP and criticism of the Munich "Clique", i.e. Esser and Streicher.
- Strasser was formally replaced as Reichs leader of NSDAP propaganda at the end of 1927 by Hitler himself.
- Hitler was offered the vice chancellery in August 1932. Strasser was asked by Schleicher in December 1932.
- The weekly newspaper Die Schwarze Front was edited by Otto. Stachura say nothing about that newspaper at op. cit. p. 127.
- It is not proven, if it was Hitler who ordered Strasser to be shot. See Stachura, p. 123 on that.
I will fix some of the more serious issues soon, but IMO the article needs to be rewritten. All references have to be looked up and/or replaced by other sources. (The latest biography on Strasser is the one by Peter Stachura, published in 1983 and it's in English.) So for matters of fairness there should be a reassessment of the article anyway. I might note that some of the errors have been written into the article shortly before the article was nominated for GA review. (See the version of 21 January 2015).-- Assayer ( talk) 17:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I remember trying to help "punch this article up" some and added the Longerich, Kershaw and Hamilton; I cannot state anything about the other sources, such as Nicholls and Fulbrook, since I don't have them and did not add in that text. One has to assume some good faith of editors and reviewers. Now, with that said as to the past, if there are better RS sources and fixes that need done, then have at it. Update addendum - I have done what I can and tweaked the article with some detail and did some copy edits and added some better cites to three points. I believe the article can be improved and frankly has been already and then it can be re-viewed, if that is consensus. But I don't automatically believe delisting is needed. Kierzek ( talk) 02:15, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Delist -- when I saw "World Media Rights" in the nomination it occurred to me that editor Jonas Vinters was most likely involved; the editor was topic banned from WWII and Nazi Germany topics about a year ago. Per Talk:Gregor Strasser/GA1, it appears that "Doctor Papa Jones" from the article history and Jonas Vinters are the same editor. If they are indeed the same user, then much of the content would be highly suspect. Suggest delisting for now, and then renominating "under new management" if the article sufficiently improves for GA. This would remove questions that the name of Jonas immediately brought to my mind. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:33, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I should probably mention that the article clearly violates MOS:LEAD, since at three paragraphs the lead is too long, but one to two paragraphs should be easily accomplished. K.e.coffman, a number of questionable sources were removed from the article shortly after you posted the above, along with the material they supported. Have the problems you saw in the article been adequately addressed? Any specific places that currently raise red flags? BlueMoonset ( talk) 01:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- Closing I nominated the article for reassessment, because of numerous factual errors, misrepresentations of the sources and the use of unreliable sources. My assessment of the inaccuracies and sources has been supported by other editors. Although I worked on the more urgent issues, the article still does not address major aspects. For example, Strasser's economic program, his influence upon NSDAP Economic Program of 1932, and his influence on Strasserism are not dealt with. As was also pointed out, the lead section is not yet a concise summary and introduction to the topic. No editor has spoken in favor of the article in its current version, but consensus has it that the article would need further review and improvement to meet all of the Good article criteria. The discussion has been open for several months without further improvement of the article. Thus the article is delisted.-- Assayer ( talk) 23:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)