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One of more mistakes is Svätoplku hadn't 2 sons, but 3 sons.
Point one: this article will be changed and extended soon considerably. Point two: If you read carefully,the text does not say how many sons he had in sum.
Please see the topic at the Slovakia talk page. Thanks, Redux 04:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
To Whom it may concern:
Here is proof:
any other constitution in the world is the "Great Moravian Empire" found, including the constitution of the Czech Republic.
... because the Czechs reffer to the Premyslids as their sires of old, the Moravians did not rule in the "Lands of the czech crown", there is no emotional connection and also no need of creating or pulling out more historical roots of the current czech state, there are enough, unlike in Slovakia. There was Nitra and then a Magyar rule, for thousand years. Probably that is why many Slovaks refer to Great Moravia as to the basis of their state.
(Since Slovakia is the only country to have these rulers on currency or stamps, these rulers are officially Slovak, no matter what websites or books claim.)
Nitra, milá Nitra, ty slovenská mati! Čo pozrem na teba, musím zaplakati. Ty si bola niekdy všeckých krajín hlava, v ktorých tečie Dunaj, Visla i Morava. Ty si bola bydlo kráľa Svätopluka, keď tu panovala mocná jeho ruka. Ty si bola svaté mesto Methodovo, keď tu naším otcom kázau božie slovo. Včilek tvoja sláva v tuoni skrytá leží, tak sa časy menia, tak tento svet beží!”
Here is more evidence that NITRA WAS the CAPITAL of the "Great Moravian Empire"
My request:
When I wrote "Nitra was the metropolis of Great Moravia" or "Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire," somebody always edited it and wrote "Nitra was one of the biggest cities in Great Moravia." First of all, the word "biggest" tells people who read the article that the person who wrote it is no older than 10 years old, so grow up. Second, if there was a town larger than Nitra, why hasn't anyone found it yet. Nitra was the largest city, it consisted of five settlements and twenty markets. If there was a city larger than this, we would have surely have found it already. Nitra, Devin, Uzhhorod, and Bratislava were the only towns to have been mentioned by name in documents made during the 10th century or earlier. All of them have developed over the centuries into important cities (or castles such as Devin). Bratislava is the capital of the Slovak Republic and Nitra stayed as one of the most important cities throughout the 11th-21st centuries and is today the fourth largest city in Slovakia. If there was a city larger than Nitra, what happened to it? Why did it cease to develop and how come no one can find it if it was so large? well, Samarkand, Efesos or Pergamon also were flourishing cities at their time, they, too, like many settlements and cities in the world perished due to infavourable (changing) natural (climatic) conditions.
Mod'ed format of boxed in text to make it fit on to the screen easly. It was too long and was dificult to scroll all the way to the side every time I read it.
--
Homer slips. 05:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I've tryed to sort it out.
--
Homer slips. 06:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It's competed.
--
Homer slips. 06:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
you are trolling, aren't you? *All* of your so-called "proofs" are just "proofs" that current Slovakia is located on the territory of former "Great Moravia" and that we honour the cultural and archaelogical heritage of Great Moravia. And that there is a statue of Pribina in Nitra just means that we recognize his role in the history, after all, it weren't the ancient Slavs to put his statue here as a proof for you! rado 06:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Exactly... Juro 23:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Knieza, we know you are looking for a great history for Slovakia, but falsifying history is not a way of doing it. From your comments it would seem that Great Moravia was a misnomer. C'mon, grow up. Moravia is in Moravia, and Moravia controlled your petty principality of Nitra.
I agree, only that at that time ment probably a toothpick to all of the peoples of Nitra and Morava how they were called. They were one nation probably, if of a nation we can speak. really, Knieza, grow up.
I have unprotected this article and Slovakia, and made an entry in the relevant Requests for comment page about this dispute. Perhaps some more opinions will help to produce a resolution. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Most hisorians agree that Mikulčice was the capital of Great Moravia, at least that's what children in Czech schools are taught (don't know about Slovakia though). + Hexagon1 ( t) 11:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia. In addition, even if there is no 100% proof for the particular capital, one thing is sure - Nitra is the "last" place which could have been the capital because it is mentioned parallely with Moravia (Mikulcice) and because it was conquered from and by Moravia. Juro 13:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Juro, you made a bad mistake with your false information (lies) that "everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." I have a library of books and the only one which considers Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia is a fiction book on Slavic gods - no accuracy, doesn't even include Perun, Svarog, or Svantovit. This particular book was published during the communist era. The rest of my books, coming from Matica Slovenska, Toronto, Lexicon, etc. refer to Nitra as the capital of Great Moravia.
What makes this filthy little village of twenty people-Mikulcice-so significant? The archeological site of Mikulcice is only half the size of that at Ducove-Kostolec, which is only 1/10 the size of Nitra or 1/3 of Devin. Mikulcice had only one church. Nitra had 7 churches. Nitra also had the only monestary and only known bishopric in Great Moravia. Where do you get this "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava" garbage? The name Morava isn't found in any writing from the 10th century (or earlier).
The archeological site of Mikulcice, unlike Nitra is located close to the river Morava, where it was found on an elevated plateau (maybe even an island). The archeological locality shows that it must have been a great city during its times of glory and that it contained two large churches, at least seven smaller ones and a ruler's palace made of stone. The downfall of the city was probably due to the growing number of attacks from the Magyar tribes but also, which may prove more important, to the growing frequency and strenght of flooding. This was caused by populating ever higher located regions (up the river course), burning and cutting of forests took place which resulted in large scale erosion and later led to elimination of many settlements in the lower regions (today, the valleys of Morava and Dyje rivers belong to the most scarsely populated in southern Moravia). Thus, Nitra had the luck of being located on a hill, which protected it both from the floods and the guerila of Magyars.
Did it ever occur to you that the name "Morava" is the native name for what is called incorrectly "Moravia?" Notice that the name Morava, the native name for "Moravia" has no "sko" at the end of it (Slovensko, Slovinsko, Cesko, etc.) which means that the title "ia" at the end of the English translation is wrong. Do you also know that the name "Moravia" is a German word meaning "killing fields." Tell me why would the Old Slovaks call themselves "conquered people"-("Moravians")? It you haven't already realized, the vernacular (the native inhabitants) of Great Moravia refered to themselves, according to writen documents (Proglas, Law of People, etc.) as "Sloveni" which means "Slovak" (Slovensko, Slovenska, Slovencina, etc.)in English or Czech.
Mikulcice has absolutely no features what so ever to make it seem significant for those times or present times. It only has the Morava River, but has no hills, mountains, mining, metal-working, or palaces. Nitra, on the other hand, has the Nitra River, Zobor Mountains, is located at the feat of the Carpathians, and has the Nitra Valley - one of the best viticultures in all of Europe. Nitra also had its own governing nobility - the Principality of Nitra, which lasted from the 8th-11th century:
Here are a couple of official websites made by the Slovak Tourist Board and the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Slovakia:
Several historic texts also testify that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, including the Nitra Codex and Zobor Documents, the song "Nitra, mila Nitra" - the anthem of the city of Nitra dating back to 1864, which is song by the student's corus at the Nitra Castle every day.
PS, dont tell me that the Old Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice and that is why archeologists regard it as an unimportant site of Great Moravia. I believe this Czech-propaganda theory that the Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice has been disproven several times. After all, anyone with common sense would know that the Magyars, or anyone else during that time period, would not bother to make every stone turn to sand and to scatter every remain to the far corners of Europe. Even fire would leave ashes so tell us why haven't archologists found any traces of a Mikulcice castle from the 9th century. Most importantly, why wasn't Mikulcice, if Mikulcice was the seat of rulers, fortified with stone - like Nitra, Devin, or Blatnohrad? Notice that Nitra had 7 churches and already had stone fortifications, because of its location - large trade, skilled craftsman, and noblity.
I have to agree with what some have already said about Knieza's argument - he correct! Once again, he is right that his opposition fails to provide a related argument - they only result to name calling as if they haven't mastered the social skills you learn in elementary school. Juro, so far, has been the closest to providing a decent argument to Knieza but his introduction "Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." blew it for him because it is biased and totally not supported. It was more just a mere pathetic cover-up, an effort to convince the public of his rightesouness. All he really cares is that he keeps his reputation on Wikipedia, because it is all he has in life. Juro, as any high school teacher will tell you from the first day of class, "YOU MUST LIST YOUR SOURCES!" I believe none of us are familiar with these "Slovak books" you claim that state "Mikulcice was the capital of Great Moravia."
(The same for you Hexagon). PS, Hexagon, I couldn't care one bit if your Czech schools teach Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia. For fifty years your Czech schools have also been teaching that the Tatras belong to Czechs (Czech Tatra Mountains, Czech City of Bratislav, Czech City of Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire in the 9-10th centuries, Czech town of Levoca, Czech castle of Trencin seated..., etc. - Lonely Planet & Brittanica). The Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak State, -
What unofficial books, magazines, websites, or newspapers say is irrelevant and have no value. Since the Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak state, it is official. Just like the effort of Czech computer nerds trying to make the name "Czechia" popular on the internet while the Czech government itself never uses the name "Czechia," nor does any other official document (Constitution, Anthem, etc.) or organization (Czech National Bank, Czech Tourist Board, etc.) associated with the Czech Republic. Not unless the Czech government officialy adobts the name Czechia, the name Czechia cannot be used in atlases, dictionaries, encyclopedias (including Wikipedia), or referrence books.
Well, to anybody who reads the above: Every single sentence is complete non-sense. I repeat, NOBODY (not even Durica) says that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, because it is just historically impossible. Children in schools from elementary sch. to univesities have in their books and all associated literature (like Lexikon of Slovak history) that the probable capital was Mikulčice. The reason are archaeological findings that (increasingly) show that the capital must have been there. I repeat, the main point is: while nobody can prove that Mikulčice was not the capital, it is absolutely straightforward that precisely Nitra(va) was not the capital (i.e. not the town called Morava), because (as opposed to any other Great Moravian town) it is mentioned explicitely by the name Nitra and it was conquered from Morava. If you have a text claiming something else you can just throw it away, because it is worth nothing. Juro 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Very interesting but not even worth to argue with you Juro. Would you mind telling us from which historic document do we know that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called 'Morava'" Youre knowledge from Great Moravia is stricktly limited to what you here/see on Wikipedia. I am certain that you never even been to any museum or archeological site - the Nitra museum or Devin museum/exhibition. Juro, you stated that archeologists found findings that support Mikulcice as the "probable capital of Great Moravia." Would you tell me what these "findings" really are (or are you just believing everything you read on Czech websites?)? Did they find any well-decorated jewelry as already found in Nitra, Devin, or Ducove? Did they find any evidence of a bishopric being established in Mikulcice? Did they find any crown or royal seat in Mikulcice. The "Nitra Diadem" (a diadem is basically a crown) (10th century) is in the Nitra museum and archeologists also found remains of Great Moravian noble stone seats which have been repaired into copies of four Great Moravian seats, located at the Nitra Regional Musem and Pedestrian Zone. Did Mikulcice have its own monestary like Nitra or its own school like Nitra and Devin? Did Mikulcice even have any palace or stone fortifications?
As you compare Nitra to Mikulcice you will realize:
BTW, Juro did you know that Mikulcice is located at the Slovak-Moravian border? Its sister, Kopcany, is located on the east side of the Morava. In the village of Kopcany stands a church that is almost entirely from the 9th century. It was in the tombs and graves around this church (in Slovakia) that archeologists discovered gold and bronze belts, swords, spears, and a cross - which is kept in an exhibition in the Nitra Museum. Mikulcice, which is located on the west of the Morava, had only few graves. I would suggest you stop believing everything you read on your websites and instead go visit the museums and archeological sites. Maybe you will then better understand why before the 1980's, when internet was made, Mikulcice was never considered the capital of Great Moravia.
IF you really know anything at all then I would be happy that you provide me with pictures and sources for your "findings" so that we may see your point-of-view.
Karolkalna put a new map of Great Moravia which is always welcome but, deleting already established information is not welcome at all. Juro, how come you don't write on Karolkalna's map "Ignoring the title and symbols, the map is largely correct"? Surely we all know that no single map on this planet is 100% accurate but, unless you write on every single map that the map is "largely correct," I don't see why you have to write it on the older map of Great Moravia. Her map is on the other hand absolutely not correct and Karolkalna's misinterpretation that the map shows the original territory displays Karolkalna's knowledge on the subject. It is clear that Karolkalna has no knowledge but just wants to establish his/her opinion on this website - NOT ACCEPTABLE! Furthermore, she did site her source, which I do appreciate (for starters) but, her source was not credible - meaning it is not an official website of any thing. It would be like using www.rottentomato.com, www.geocities.com, www.johny316.com, or www.wikipedia.com to write a history book. Her website had no accuracy in the entire article because for example, it used the name "Rostislav" instead of Rastislav throughout. Proper research of Rastislav of Devin (Rastic, Rastislaus, Rastiz, Rastislaus Dowina) would reveal that Rastislav is featured on Slovak stamps (www.telecom.gov.sk) which include the spelling of his name as "RASTISLAV" - not the modern Czech propaganda of "Rostislav." Karolkalna's website also included no actual historic documents, quotes from historians/archeologists, or pictures of archeological findings, not even links to books or magazines about the subject. I suggest that we include both maps so that readers will not be mislead to thinking Great Moravia included all of present-day Czech Republic from 833 so on. Remember, the Czechs became a part of Great Moravia only when the Slovak king Svatopluk conquered them and forced the Czechs to pay homage to the Great Moravian state. The Czechs were unhappy in Great Moravia and that is why the offered themselves to their western neighbors for protection from Svatopluk.
it is a bad idea to present a map with GREAT SLOVAK KINGDOM (old slovak, ancient slovak is OK) - only a fake, and symbols of current Slovakia have more to do with hisrorical Hungary, less with Great Moravia, copyright of map is dubios, source is problenmatic, please delete it. see Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 January 15 -- Mt7 22:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
After visiting the Nitra Museum, I got interesting information on the Blatnica Sword. I would like to add a picture of the famous sword to the Great Moravia article within one week. May anyone tell me if I need to do some registering to add images to Wiki.
Dear Juraj, I do not know you and I have really no idea if you can even speak Slovak because if you could, you would have, could I say, more "common sense" in the history of ancient Slovakia. Morowa, the name given to today's Zlate Moravce in the ancient Zobor Charter of 1113, translates to Morava. Read more on Zlate Moravce's website to get a better understanding. Morowa is translated to Morava as Dowina is translated to Devin, Nitria to Nitra, etc. And as we can clearly see, most official sources (official websites of museums, governments, districts, universities, etc.) claim that Nitra was the capital and make no mention of any town on the territory of Great Moravia being called "Morava." I have not found a mention in any official source that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava." This is because the oldest referrence to a town called Morava/Morowa comes from an entry from the Zobor Charter, which was written over a century after the disappearance of the Old Slovak Kingdom.
I would like to give the heads up to who ever wrote the silly comment about Brittanica because, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Brittanica have unaccepted and totally false statements such as under the Czech Republic article, you will find that the highest peak in the CR is called "Gerlach" (which is in central-north Slovakia)? I also found some rediculous statements in Brittanica which I have never found anywhere else such as "Czechoslovakian prince Sviatopolk united the Slavic lands of Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia in 874." I think the trouble is that Juro refuses to acknowledge the fact that Wikipedia is NOT an official source because he has devoted his entire life to Wikipedia (which is more useless than the random yells of Henny Penny about the sky falling down). It is more like a random newspaper because the information you read on Wikipedia is only what the editors want you to read. Brittanica (and all encyclopedias around the world including Slovakopedia) are simply, you could say, third party sources (filtered sources) - eg. newspapers, magazines, etc.
Second, I am not trying to establish that Zlate Moravce was the capital of Great Moravia. There is only one book which I found that claims Zlate Moravce was the capital and it is a fiction book about Slavic gods written thirty years ago. However, we should surely not become the first to discredit Zlate Moravce because it was a obviously a very large center during the 9th and 10th centuries with its own church still standing today (Kostolany pod Tribecom) and it consisting of two large towns, both being fortified with wooden walls and towers.
The only ancient text written during the Middle Ages that mentions a town called Morava that I found is the Zobor Documents of the early 12th C. However, they do not make a referrence to present day Mikulcice but, to Zlate Moravce (obviously because the author was describing the towns under the influence of the Zobor Monastery).
We all know that Nitra (Nitrava, Nitra, Nitria, Nitrensis) was mentioned several times during the 9/10th centuries (Conversions of Bavarians and Carinthians 828-871, Life of Methodius 864-886, Pope John VIII's Bull Industriae Tuae of June 880). We also know that Devin (Dowina, Douina), being the site of a battle between Rastislav (Rastizen) and the Franks during 864, is mentioned in the Annals of Fulda and that the Battle of Bratislava (Breslausepurch) during 907 is mentioned in the Annals of Salzburg. The town of [Zlate] Moravce (Morowa) is mentioned in the Zobor Documents (early 12th century). Now, I would like to know if there was a document written before the 12th C that mentioned a town called Morava (Morawa, Marha, Morowa, or Morabia maybe?). Otherwise, give up this useless garbage about the "probable capital (being) called Morava."
P.S. Your useless insults to discredit me will not get you out of this one Juro. So you better have some relevant argument with at least some knowledge about Slovakia because if you don't, then you shouldn't be discussing it.
Jbetak, You can take Juro's side of the argument if you like. Juro has shown himself as just a typical coward. { personal attacks and ranting removed}
Once again, it seems that Wikipedia makes statements which are limited to only Wikipedia and its fellow online encyclopedias. I am aware that archeologists in the past decade uncovered a school from the late 9th century at the Devin Castle but, this has not become too noticed yet among official sources, yet even universities in Slovakia. It has always been considered that the St. Method's Academy next to the Zobor Monastery was the first school in Slovakia. For more detail visit: http://www.telecom.gov.sk/externe/znamky/1995/9560e.html
I wonder why Juro is afraid to discuss why everything besides his work is "vandalism." Im sorry Juro, I did not realize you developed this website. I have provided sources for my information now how about you try to provide a source for your rediculous claim about the capital being called "Morava."
After looking at articles related to Slovakia, it is clear that I am not the only person to question credibility and factual accuracy of Juro's information. I especially hate { personal attack removed}.
Although the article is now quite comprehensive, there is almost no information about culture. So, if anyone of you has particular knowledge about Great Moravian litterature, architecture, artifacts, and so one, I would like to encourage you to edit this part. Its present form is extremely unsatisfactory. Tankred 21:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Nitria redirects here, yet the word is not found in the article. Could someone include something explaining how Nitria relates?
The OED relates "Nitrian" as "Of, relating to, or designating the desert region of Nitria, to the west of Cairo in Egypt, esp. as the place of settlement of a group of ascetic Christian hermit monks in the 4th cent." The Jade Knight 07:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
this article desperately needs a map. Nothing available? -- TheMightyQuill 19:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll do one! -- Homer slips. 06:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
One of more mistakes is Svätoplku hadn't 2 sons, but 3 sons.
Point one: this article will be changed and extended soon considerably. Point two: If you read carefully,the text does not say how many sons he had in sum.
Please see the topic at the Slovakia talk page. Thanks, Redux 04:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
To Whom it may concern:
Here is proof:
any other constitution in the world is the "Great Moravian Empire" found, including the constitution of the Czech Republic.
... because the Czechs reffer to the Premyslids as their sires of old, the Moravians did not rule in the "Lands of the czech crown", there is no emotional connection and also no need of creating or pulling out more historical roots of the current czech state, there are enough, unlike in Slovakia. There was Nitra and then a Magyar rule, for thousand years. Probably that is why many Slovaks refer to Great Moravia as to the basis of their state.
(Since Slovakia is the only country to have these rulers on currency or stamps, these rulers are officially Slovak, no matter what websites or books claim.)
Nitra, milá Nitra, ty slovenská mati! Čo pozrem na teba, musím zaplakati. Ty si bola niekdy všeckých krajín hlava, v ktorých tečie Dunaj, Visla i Morava. Ty si bola bydlo kráľa Svätopluka, keď tu panovala mocná jeho ruka. Ty si bola svaté mesto Methodovo, keď tu naším otcom kázau božie slovo. Včilek tvoja sláva v tuoni skrytá leží, tak sa časy menia, tak tento svet beží!”
Here is more evidence that NITRA WAS the CAPITAL of the "Great Moravian Empire"
My request:
When I wrote "Nitra was the metropolis of Great Moravia" or "Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire," somebody always edited it and wrote "Nitra was one of the biggest cities in Great Moravia." First of all, the word "biggest" tells people who read the article that the person who wrote it is no older than 10 years old, so grow up. Second, if there was a town larger than Nitra, why hasn't anyone found it yet. Nitra was the largest city, it consisted of five settlements and twenty markets. If there was a city larger than this, we would have surely have found it already. Nitra, Devin, Uzhhorod, and Bratislava were the only towns to have been mentioned by name in documents made during the 10th century or earlier. All of them have developed over the centuries into important cities (or castles such as Devin). Bratislava is the capital of the Slovak Republic and Nitra stayed as one of the most important cities throughout the 11th-21st centuries and is today the fourth largest city in Slovakia. If there was a city larger than Nitra, what happened to it? Why did it cease to develop and how come no one can find it if it was so large? well, Samarkand, Efesos or Pergamon also were flourishing cities at their time, they, too, like many settlements and cities in the world perished due to infavourable (changing) natural (climatic) conditions.
Mod'ed format of boxed in text to make it fit on to the screen easly. It was too long and was dificult to scroll all the way to the side every time I read it.
--
Homer slips. 05:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I've tryed to sort it out.
--
Homer slips. 06:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It's competed.
--
Homer slips. 06:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
you are trolling, aren't you? *All* of your so-called "proofs" are just "proofs" that current Slovakia is located on the territory of former "Great Moravia" and that we honour the cultural and archaelogical heritage of Great Moravia. And that there is a statue of Pribina in Nitra just means that we recognize his role in the history, after all, it weren't the ancient Slavs to put his statue here as a proof for you! rado 06:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Exactly... Juro 23:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Knieza, we know you are looking for a great history for Slovakia, but falsifying history is not a way of doing it. From your comments it would seem that Great Moravia was a misnomer. C'mon, grow up. Moravia is in Moravia, and Moravia controlled your petty principality of Nitra.
I agree, only that at that time ment probably a toothpick to all of the peoples of Nitra and Morava how they were called. They were one nation probably, if of a nation we can speak. really, Knieza, grow up.
I have unprotected this article and Slovakia, and made an entry in the relevant Requests for comment page about this dispute. Perhaps some more opinions will help to produce a resolution. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Most hisorians agree that Mikulčice was the capital of Great Moravia, at least that's what children in Czech schools are taught (don't know about Slovakia though). + Hexagon1 ( t) 11:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia. In addition, even if there is no 100% proof for the particular capital, one thing is sure - Nitra is the "last" place which could have been the capital because it is mentioned parallely with Moravia (Mikulcice) and because it was conquered from and by Moravia. Juro 13:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Juro, you made a bad mistake with your false information (lies) that "everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." I have a library of books and the only one which considers Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia is a fiction book on Slavic gods - no accuracy, doesn't even include Perun, Svarog, or Svantovit. This particular book was published during the communist era. The rest of my books, coming from Matica Slovenska, Toronto, Lexicon, etc. refer to Nitra as the capital of Great Moravia.
What makes this filthy little village of twenty people-Mikulcice-so significant? The archeological site of Mikulcice is only half the size of that at Ducove-Kostolec, which is only 1/10 the size of Nitra or 1/3 of Devin. Mikulcice had only one church. Nitra had 7 churches. Nitra also had the only monestary and only known bishopric in Great Moravia. Where do you get this "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava" garbage? The name Morava isn't found in any writing from the 10th century (or earlier).
The archeological site of Mikulcice, unlike Nitra is located close to the river Morava, where it was found on an elevated plateau (maybe even an island). The archeological locality shows that it must have been a great city during its times of glory and that it contained two large churches, at least seven smaller ones and a ruler's palace made of stone. The downfall of the city was probably due to the growing number of attacks from the Magyar tribes but also, which may prove more important, to the growing frequency and strenght of flooding. This was caused by populating ever higher located regions (up the river course), burning and cutting of forests took place which resulted in large scale erosion and later led to elimination of many settlements in the lower regions (today, the valleys of Morava and Dyje rivers belong to the most scarsely populated in southern Moravia). Thus, Nitra had the luck of being located on a hill, which protected it both from the floods and the guerila of Magyars.
Did it ever occur to you that the name "Morava" is the native name for what is called incorrectly "Moravia?" Notice that the name Morava, the native name for "Moravia" has no "sko" at the end of it (Slovensko, Slovinsko, Cesko, etc.) which means that the title "ia" at the end of the English translation is wrong. Do you also know that the name "Moravia" is a German word meaning "killing fields." Tell me why would the Old Slovaks call themselves "conquered people"-("Moravians")? It you haven't already realized, the vernacular (the native inhabitants) of Great Moravia refered to themselves, according to writen documents (Proglas, Law of People, etc.) as "Sloveni" which means "Slovak" (Slovensko, Slovenska, Slovencina, etc.)in English or Czech.
Mikulcice has absolutely no features what so ever to make it seem significant for those times or present times. It only has the Morava River, but has no hills, mountains, mining, metal-working, or palaces. Nitra, on the other hand, has the Nitra River, Zobor Mountains, is located at the feat of the Carpathians, and has the Nitra Valley - one of the best viticultures in all of Europe. Nitra also had its own governing nobility - the Principality of Nitra, which lasted from the 8th-11th century:
Here are a couple of official websites made by the Slovak Tourist Board and the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Slovakia:
Several historic texts also testify that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, including the Nitra Codex and Zobor Documents, the song "Nitra, mila Nitra" - the anthem of the city of Nitra dating back to 1864, which is song by the student's corus at the Nitra Castle every day.
PS, dont tell me that the Old Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice and that is why archeologists regard it as an unimportant site of Great Moravia. I believe this Czech-propaganda theory that the Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice has been disproven several times. After all, anyone with common sense would know that the Magyars, or anyone else during that time period, would not bother to make every stone turn to sand and to scatter every remain to the far corners of Europe. Even fire would leave ashes so tell us why haven't archologists found any traces of a Mikulcice castle from the 9th century. Most importantly, why wasn't Mikulcice, if Mikulcice was the seat of rulers, fortified with stone - like Nitra, Devin, or Blatnohrad? Notice that Nitra had 7 churches and already had stone fortifications, because of its location - large trade, skilled craftsman, and noblity.
I have to agree with what some have already said about Knieza's argument - he correct! Once again, he is right that his opposition fails to provide a related argument - they only result to name calling as if they haven't mastered the social skills you learn in elementary school. Juro, so far, has been the closest to providing a decent argument to Knieza but his introduction "Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." blew it for him because it is biased and totally not supported. It was more just a mere pathetic cover-up, an effort to convince the public of his rightesouness. All he really cares is that he keeps his reputation on Wikipedia, because it is all he has in life. Juro, as any high school teacher will tell you from the first day of class, "YOU MUST LIST YOUR SOURCES!" I believe none of us are familiar with these "Slovak books" you claim that state "Mikulcice was the capital of Great Moravia."
(The same for you Hexagon). PS, Hexagon, I couldn't care one bit if your Czech schools teach Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia. For fifty years your Czech schools have also been teaching that the Tatras belong to Czechs (Czech Tatra Mountains, Czech City of Bratislav, Czech City of Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire in the 9-10th centuries, Czech town of Levoca, Czech castle of Trencin seated..., etc. - Lonely Planet & Brittanica). The Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak State, -
What unofficial books, magazines, websites, or newspapers say is irrelevant and have no value. Since the Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak state, it is official. Just like the effort of Czech computer nerds trying to make the name "Czechia" popular on the internet while the Czech government itself never uses the name "Czechia," nor does any other official document (Constitution, Anthem, etc.) or organization (Czech National Bank, Czech Tourist Board, etc.) associated with the Czech Republic. Not unless the Czech government officialy adobts the name Czechia, the name Czechia cannot be used in atlases, dictionaries, encyclopedias (including Wikipedia), or referrence books.
Well, to anybody who reads the above: Every single sentence is complete non-sense. I repeat, NOBODY (not even Durica) says that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, because it is just historically impossible. Children in schools from elementary sch. to univesities have in their books and all associated literature (like Lexikon of Slovak history) that the probable capital was Mikulčice. The reason are archaeological findings that (increasingly) show that the capital must have been there. I repeat, the main point is: while nobody can prove that Mikulčice was not the capital, it is absolutely straightforward that precisely Nitra(va) was not the capital (i.e. not the town called Morava), because (as opposed to any other Great Moravian town) it is mentioned explicitely by the name Nitra and it was conquered from Morava. If you have a text claiming something else you can just throw it away, because it is worth nothing. Juro 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Very interesting but not even worth to argue with you Juro. Would you mind telling us from which historic document do we know that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called 'Morava'" Youre knowledge from Great Moravia is stricktly limited to what you here/see on Wikipedia. I am certain that you never even been to any museum or archeological site - the Nitra museum or Devin museum/exhibition. Juro, you stated that archeologists found findings that support Mikulcice as the "probable capital of Great Moravia." Would you tell me what these "findings" really are (or are you just believing everything you read on Czech websites?)? Did they find any well-decorated jewelry as already found in Nitra, Devin, or Ducove? Did they find any evidence of a bishopric being established in Mikulcice? Did they find any crown or royal seat in Mikulcice. The "Nitra Diadem" (a diadem is basically a crown) (10th century) is in the Nitra museum and archeologists also found remains of Great Moravian noble stone seats which have been repaired into copies of four Great Moravian seats, located at the Nitra Regional Musem and Pedestrian Zone. Did Mikulcice have its own monestary like Nitra or its own school like Nitra and Devin? Did Mikulcice even have any palace or stone fortifications?
As you compare Nitra to Mikulcice you will realize:
BTW, Juro did you know that Mikulcice is located at the Slovak-Moravian border? Its sister, Kopcany, is located on the east side of the Morava. In the village of Kopcany stands a church that is almost entirely from the 9th century. It was in the tombs and graves around this church (in Slovakia) that archeologists discovered gold and bronze belts, swords, spears, and a cross - which is kept in an exhibition in the Nitra Museum. Mikulcice, which is located on the west of the Morava, had only few graves. I would suggest you stop believing everything you read on your websites and instead go visit the museums and archeological sites. Maybe you will then better understand why before the 1980's, when internet was made, Mikulcice was never considered the capital of Great Moravia.
IF you really know anything at all then I would be happy that you provide me with pictures and sources for your "findings" so that we may see your point-of-view.
Karolkalna put a new map of Great Moravia which is always welcome but, deleting already established information is not welcome at all. Juro, how come you don't write on Karolkalna's map "Ignoring the title and symbols, the map is largely correct"? Surely we all know that no single map on this planet is 100% accurate but, unless you write on every single map that the map is "largely correct," I don't see why you have to write it on the older map of Great Moravia. Her map is on the other hand absolutely not correct and Karolkalna's misinterpretation that the map shows the original territory displays Karolkalna's knowledge on the subject. It is clear that Karolkalna has no knowledge but just wants to establish his/her opinion on this website - NOT ACCEPTABLE! Furthermore, she did site her source, which I do appreciate (for starters) but, her source was not credible - meaning it is not an official website of any thing. It would be like using www.rottentomato.com, www.geocities.com, www.johny316.com, or www.wikipedia.com to write a history book. Her website had no accuracy in the entire article because for example, it used the name "Rostislav" instead of Rastislav throughout. Proper research of Rastislav of Devin (Rastic, Rastislaus, Rastiz, Rastislaus Dowina) would reveal that Rastislav is featured on Slovak stamps (www.telecom.gov.sk) which include the spelling of his name as "RASTISLAV" - not the modern Czech propaganda of "Rostislav." Karolkalna's website also included no actual historic documents, quotes from historians/archeologists, or pictures of archeological findings, not even links to books or magazines about the subject. I suggest that we include both maps so that readers will not be mislead to thinking Great Moravia included all of present-day Czech Republic from 833 so on. Remember, the Czechs became a part of Great Moravia only when the Slovak king Svatopluk conquered them and forced the Czechs to pay homage to the Great Moravian state. The Czechs were unhappy in Great Moravia and that is why the offered themselves to their western neighbors for protection from Svatopluk.
it is a bad idea to present a map with GREAT SLOVAK KINGDOM (old slovak, ancient slovak is OK) - only a fake, and symbols of current Slovakia have more to do with hisrorical Hungary, less with Great Moravia, copyright of map is dubios, source is problenmatic, please delete it. see Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 January 15 -- Mt7 22:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
After visiting the Nitra Museum, I got interesting information on the Blatnica Sword. I would like to add a picture of the famous sword to the Great Moravia article within one week. May anyone tell me if I need to do some registering to add images to Wiki.
Dear Juraj, I do not know you and I have really no idea if you can even speak Slovak because if you could, you would have, could I say, more "common sense" in the history of ancient Slovakia. Morowa, the name given to today's Zlate Moravce in the ancient Zobor Charter of 1113, translates to Morava. Read more on Zlate Moravce's website to get a better understanding. Morowa is translated to Morava as Dowina is translated to Devin, Nitria to Nitra, etc. And as we can clearly see, most official sources (official websites of museums, governments, districts, universities, etc.) claim that Nitra was the capital and make no mention of any town on the territory of Great Moravia being called "Morava." I have not found a mention in any official source that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava." This is because the oldest referrence to a town called Morava/Morowa comes from an entry from the Zobor Charter, which was written over a century after the disappearance of the Old Slovak Kingdom.
I would like to give the heads up to who ever wrote the silly comment about Brittanica because, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Brittanica have unaccepted and totally false statements such as under the Czech Republic article, you will find that the highest peak in the CR is called "Gerlach" (which is in central-north Slovakia)? I also found some rediculous statements in Brittanica which I have never found anywhere else such as "Czechoslovakian prince Sviatopolk united the Slavic lands of Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia in 874." I think the trouble is that Juro refuses to acknowledge the fact that Wikipedia is NOT an official source because he has devoted his entire life to Wikipedia (which is more useless than the random yells of Henny Penny about the sky falling down). It is more like a random newspaper because the information you read on Wikipedia is only what the editors want you to read. Brittanica (and all encyclopedias around the world including Slovakopedia) are simply, you could say, third party sources (filtered sources) - eg. newspapers, magazines, etc.
Second, I am not trying to establish that Zlate Moravce was the capital of Great Moravia. There is only one book which I found that claims Zlate Moravce was the capital and it is a fiction book about Slavic gods written thirty years ago. However, we should surely not become the first to discredit Zlate Moravce because it was a obviously a very large center during the 9th and 10th centuries with its own church still standing today (Kostolany pod Tribecom) and it consisting of two large towns, both being fortified with wooden walls and towers.
The only ancient text written during the Middle Ages that mentions a town called Morava that I found is the Zobor Documents of the early 12th C. However, they do not make a referrence to present day Mikulcice but, to Zlate Moravce (obviously because the author was describing the towns under the influence of the Zobor Monastery).
We all know that Nitra (Nitrava, Nitra, Nitria, Nitrensis) was mentioned several times during the 9/10th centuries (Conversions of Bavarians and Carinthians 828-871, Life of Methodius 864-886, Pope John VIII's Bull Industriae Tuae of June 880). We also know that Devin (Dowina, Douina), being the site of a battle between Rastislav (Rastizen) and the Franks during 864, is mentioned in the Annals of Fulda and that the Battle of Bratislava (Breslausepurch) during 907 is mentioned in the Annals of Salzburg. The town of [Zlate] Moravce (Morowa) is mentioned in the Zobor Documents (early 12th century). Now, I would like to know if there was a document written before the 12th C that mentioned a town called Morava (Morawa, Marha, Morowa, or Morabia maybe?). Otherwise, give up this useless garbage about the "probable capital (being) called Morava."
P.S. Your useless insults to discredit me will not get you out of this one Juro. So you better have some relevant argument with at least some knowledge about Slovakia because if you don't, then you shouldn't be discussing it.
Jbetak, You can take Juro's side of the argument if you like. Juro has shown himself as just a typical coward. { personal attacks and ranting removed}
Once again, it seems that Wikipedia makes statements which are limited to only Wikipedia and its fellow online encyclopedias. I am aware that archeologists in the past decade uncovered a school from the late 9th century at the Devin Castle but, this has not become too noticed yet among official sources, yet even universities in Slovakia. It has always been considered that the St. Method's Academy next to the Zobor Monastery was the first school in Slovakia. For more detail visit: http://www.telecom.gov.sk/externe/znamky/1995/9560e.html
I wonder why Juro is afraid to discuss why everything besides his work is "vandalism." Im sorry Juro, I did not realize you developed this website. I have provided sources for my information now how about you try to provide a source for your rediculous claim about the capital being called "Morava."
After looking at articles related to Slovakia, it is clear that I am not the only person to question credibility and factual accuracy of Juro's information. I especially hate { personal attack removed}.
Although the article is now quite comprehensive, there is almost no information about culture. So, if anyone of you has particular knowledge about Great Moravian litterature, architecture, artifacts, and so one, I would like to encourage you to edit this part. Its present form is extremely unsatisfactory. Tankred 21:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Nitria redirects here, yet the word is not found in the article. Could someone include something explaining how Nitria relates?
The OED relates "Nitrian" as "Of, relating to, or designating the desert region of Nitria, to the west of Cairo in Egypt, esp. as the place of settlement of a group of ascetic Christian hermit monks in the 4th cent." The Jade Knight 07:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
this article desperately needs a map. Nothing available? -- TheMightyQuill 19:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll do one! -- Homer slips. 06:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)