This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
So there has been for some years now attempts to include as a significant minority view, the view that the canonical Gospel of Matthew (the subject of this article) was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic (not Greek, at any rate). I believe I have asked multiple times during the past year for a single, reliable source ( WP:RS) which affirms this view, but I have never seen one. While I have seen lots of reliable sources mentioned in relation to this view (Edwards, Casey, Dunn, Ehrman, etc.), none of these sources affirm the view, and instead they affirm the opposite. While there is a current interest in formal processes, I want to make an informal request: For anyone who wishes to make such an attempt as mentioned, could you supply a single, reliable source which affirms this view, one which you take to be the most clearly reliable of all such sources? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 07:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Ditto! Please take a look at James Edwards 2009 who points out that Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link The first 124 pages is a detailed, scholarly and meticulous evaluation of the historical evidence. (See box below) The academic community, even those who disagree about his position on Luke and Q, were awed by these 124 pages!
The first 124 pages is a detailed, scholarly and meticulous evaluation of the historical evidence. |
---|
Evidence adduced by Ret.Prof ( talk · contribs) |
Earliest Paralipomena
The Fayum FragmentThe Fayum Fragment is perhaps the oldest Gospel fragment known to scholars. Harnack believes that the fragment belongs to the Gospel of the Hebrews a suggestion made before him already by Chiapelli. [211]
The Oxyrhynchus FragmentsOxyrhynchus is a city in Upper Egypt, located about 160 km south-southwest of Cairo. It is also an archaeological site, considered one of the most important ever discovered. For the past century, the area around Oxyrhynchus has been continually excavated, yielding an enormous collection of papyrus texts dating from the time of the Early Church. Under this heading we bring two gospel fragments; the first was published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1904; the second in 1908; the former was discovered in 1903; the latter in December 1905. Besides these gospel fragments we also bring the Oxyrhynchus Sayings or Logia. These were found in 1897 and 1903. Oxyrhynchus 840, is a single, small vellum parchment leaf with 45 lines of text. It probably dates from before 200, but no more is determinable from this evidence. The fragment begins with a warning to an evildoer who plans ahead, but who does not take the next life into account. There follows sections of a narrative unparalleled in any other known gospel tradition. Jesus is called Savior, which is rare in the New Testament, but not unparalleled. The absence of connections in this piece to special interests within the early Christian community, as well as the presence of both numerous semitisms and an informed view on Temple matters lead naturally to a Hebrew Gospel link. Further, it is likely that the original document was composed at least by the early 2nd century, since it shares none of the uncontrolled fantasies about Jesus or the disciples that 2nd and 3rd century apocryphal accounts typically exhibit. Oxyrhynchus 1224 consists of two small papyrus fragments. They contain 12 logia, each about a sentence. Two of the longer ones are parallel to Mark 2:17 and Luke 9:50, but the differences in phrasing show they are textually independent of the Gospels. A precise date for composition is unknown; 50 A.D. is possible and some scholars have argued that the preservation of the Hebrew Gospel in Oxyrhynchus in Middle Egypt evinces the breadth of its dissemination in early Christianity. Oxyrhynchus 654 and other fragments show a link between the Hebrew Gospel and the Gospel of Thomas. (The relationship of the Hebrew Gospel to Thomas becomes more clear when it is understood that that Gospel according to the Hebrews, under various names, such as the Gospel according to Peter, according to the Apostles, the Nazarenes, Ebionites, Egyptians, etc., with modifications certainly, but substantially the same work, was circulated very widely throughout the early Church.) [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224] [225]
The Paralipomena according to Justin MartyrArthur Lillie argues that Justin Martyr is quoting from the Hebrew Gospel. Lillie points out that although Justin mentions other books of the Bible by name, he never mentions the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Indeed, Justin states that he is citing the "Memoirs of the Apostles," the alternative title for Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. Dr. Gilles goes one step further, arguing that the wording shows that Justin cannot be quoting from the Canonical Gospels but rather a single work, probably Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. This position has been challenged by Nicholson and others. [230] [231] [232] [233]
The Sinful WomanThis story has long been the subject of scholarly debate. Although it is part of the Gospel of John, most literary critics agree that it was not originally found there. Papias states that it is from the Hebrew Gospel. [287] [288] [289] [290]
Early MSS transcriptsThe most ancient manuscripts of Matthew's Gospel end with the following citation: "Here ends the copy of the Gospel of the apostle Matthew. He wrote it in the land of Palestine, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in the Hebrew language, eight years after the bodily ascension of Jesus the Messiah into Heaven, in the first year of the reign of Claudius Caesar, Emperor of Rome." [295] [296] Also Theophylact and Euthymius do also assert this Gospel to have been written in the eighth year after Christ's Ascension. Later ParalipomenaThis category of Hebrew Paralipomena tends to be later and less reliable.
|
Simply put the position of Papias that, "Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and one of his followers, Matthew wrote an account about him in the local dialect." is supported by considerable evidence. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 23:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for all the sources. But are we with them? Do any of the reliable sources mentioned affirm that the canonical Gospel of Matthew (the subject of this article) was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic (not Greek, at any rate)? So far: Metzger 1987 doesn't. Petersen 1994 doesn't. In the Kranz and Verheyden 2011, Petersen says the opposite (chapter 24, "The Genesis of the Gospels", p. 410, note 96): "Where, in the serial development of the text we describe for the first and second centuries, does one "freeze" the process and say "this" is the "autograph"? Your author submits that is impossible, just as it is impossible to speak of the "autograph" of the Odyssey." Edwards 2006 says the opposite (p. 257): "Canonical Greek Matthew was almost certainly a Greek document from its inception." I've yet to look at the other sources. -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 04:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Atethnekos, you must read the whole section:
@PiCo Will do! See Chart for now. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 05:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Ret.Prof, I'm getting worried that you haven't really understood what's at issue with the mediation. It's about this article, the Gospel of Matthew. You need sources that are specific to the Gospel of Matthew. None of the sources you've mentioned so far do this.
In short, none of these sources are relevant, because none of them see a connection between Papias' Matthew and our Matthew. You need to find someone who does. You also need to be very precise about what you want from mediation - exactly what content do you want to see added to the article? Can I suggest that you begin with that - drafting a sentence or paragraph or section that you ask to have included? PiCo ( talk) 20:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
______
Leave it to David! Having the actual authors involved would be a blast! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:23, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
The great church historian of the fourth century, Eusebius, dismissed Papias by saying that he was “a man of very small intelligence” (Church History 3.39).
Intelligent or not, Papias is an important source for establishing the historical existence of Jesus. He had read some Gospels although there is no reason to think that he knew the ones that made it into the New Testament, as I will show in a moment. But more important, he had other access to the sayings of Jesus. He was personally acquainted with people who had known either the apostles themselves or their companions.— Bart Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? ch. 4
Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus’s life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus’s sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in scripture.
— loc.cit.
Jerome's letter addressed to Pope Damasus in 383 "I will now speak of the New Testament, which was undoubtedly composed in Greek, with the exception of the Apostle Matthew, who was the first in Judea to produce a Gospel of Christ in Hebrew script. We must confess that as we have it in our language, it is marked by discrepancies, and now that the stream is distributed into different channels we must go back to the Fountainhead." >>>>>>>>>>> Jerome, Preface to the Four Gospels, Addressed to Pope Damasus in 383 Roland H. Worth, Bible translations: a history through source documents, McFarland & Co., 1992. p 28 James R. Edwards, The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 286 Up to this time most people believed the Gospel of Matthew to be a Greek translation of Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Modern scholars have since vindicated Jerome and it is generally accepted that the Gospel of Matthew found in the Bible could not have been tranlated from the Hebrew Gospel. Henry Wace & Philip Schaff, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church: St. Jerome: Letters and select works, Christian literature Company, 1893. Vol 6, p 488)
No letter from the early Church has been as hotly contested by Biblical scholars! Enjoyng the debate! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 02:28, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
since most of Ehrman’s textual arguments are essentially the well-established and long-accepted consensus views of just about every worthwhile critical biblical scholar not teaching at a Christian university, seminary, or school with the word “Evangelical” in the title... conservative scholars attempt to refute the biblical scholarship that is taught in every major university save the aforementioned conservative Christian schools.
— Robert Cargill, i stand with bart ehrman: a review of the ‘ehrman project’
Now I am confused. The third paragraph of Ehrman 2010 p 101 says the opposite of what you say. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Pope Damasus (To Jerome) To his most beloved son Jerome: DAMASUS, Bishop, sends greetings in the Lord. The orthodox Greek and Latin versions [of the Gospel of Matthew] put forth not only differing but mutually conflicting explanations of the saying 'Hosanna to the son of David'. I wish you would write...stating the true meaning of what is actually written in the Hebrew text.
Jerome (Reply) “Matthew, who composed his Gospel in Hebrew script, wrote, 'Osanna Barrama', which means 'Hosanna in the Highest.’”
Remember, there is no text without context! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 01:07, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
If you mean to say that the canonical Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek, you are correct. However, if you mean to say that the Aramaic source material used to compose the Greek copy was not called "Matthew's Gospel," here we part ways and I strongly disagree!
I will exercise my right on Wikipedia to post Primary Sources, based on the leeway given in the WP guidelines for Primary Sources and will not infringe the prohibition by interpreting them one way or the other, nor violate thereby WP:OR. I shall not interject any personal bias, but only present the primary sources, since they are relevant to our discussion. Because of the vast array of opinions in contemporary literature regarding this subject - often divergent one from the other, it is always a good idea to bear in mind the primary sources upon whose axis our entire debate hinges. For example: Jerome wrote (Dialogus adversus Pelagianos, in: Migne, Patr. Lat. 23, Parisiis 1883, III, 2): "In the Gospel 'According to the Hebrews,' which was written in the Chaldaic and Syriac language but with Hebrew letters, and is used up to the present day by the Nazoraeans, I mean that according to the Apostles, or, as many maintain, according to Matthew, which Gospel is also available in the Library of Caesarea, the story runs: 'See, the mother of the Lord and his brother said to him: John the Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins, let us go to be baptized by him, etc."
Likewise did Jerome write elsewhere: "Matthew, also called Levi, an apostle after having been a publican, was the first to compose a gospel of Christ in Judea in Hebrew letters and words for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. But who afterwards translated it into Greek is not sufficiently certain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected." - Jerome (On Illustrious Men).
Eusebius also wrote in Papias' name: "Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each translated them as best he could." - Eusebius, (H.E. 3.39.16); while Irenaeus has testified: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel of the Hebrews in their own language, etc.," - Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.1.1
Epiphanius, who wrote about the Jews who call themselves Ebionites and Nazoraeans and who make use of the same Gospel, writes in Panarion (Medicine Chest), and which words are repeated in Anacephalaiosis 13.1: "The beginning of the Gospel among them reads: 'It happened in the days of Herod the king of Judea (at a time when Caiaphas was high priest) that a certain John came, baptizing the baptism of conversion in the river Jordan. Of him it is said that he was from the family of Aaron the priest, the son of Zacharias and Elisabeth. And all went out to him. […] It happened that John baptized and the Pharisees went out to him and were baptized and all Jerusalem. And John was dressed in a mantle of camel's hair and a leather belt was round his waist. And his food was, it is said, wild honey, of which the taste was that of manna, like cakes in olive oil.”
Eusebius in his Theophania - ed. MPG 24/ after 323), speaks somewhat about the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30: "Since the Gospel which has come to us in Hebrew letters directs its threat not against the one who has hidden [his talent] but against the one who lived in spendthrift – for he possessed three slaves, one who spent the fortune of his master with harlots and flute-girls, the second who multiplied his trade and the third who hid his talent; next the first was accepted, the second rebuked only, the third, however, was thrown into prison. I wonder whether the threat in Matthew which, according to the letter was spoken against the one who did nothing, applies not to him but to the first one who was eating and drinking with those who were drunken, by way of resumption."
Jerome, speaking about Matthew 27:51, wrote in his Commentarius in Epistulam 120:8 the following testimony: "But in the Gospel which is written in Hebrew letters we read that not the curtain of the temple but the upper-threshold (Latin: superliminare temple) of the temple, being of marvelous size, fell down." also
Jerome (Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ed. D. Hurst, ch. 27, 51) also writes: "In the gospel which we have already often mentioned, we read that the upper-threshold of the temple, of an enormous size, was broken and slit."
Jerome, in Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ed. D. Hurst, ch. 23, 35, speaks about Matthew 23:34-35 and says: "In the gospel which the Nazoraeans use, we find that there is written, 'son of Ioiada' (Yehoiada) in place of the 'son of Barachia.' " (cf. II Chron. 24: 20-21)
Jerome, in Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ch.12, vs.13, ed. D.Hurst), writes: "…In the Gospel which the Nazoraeans and the Ebionites use which we translated recently from Hebrew to Greek and which is called the authentic text of Matthew by a good many…"
There are actually many, many more citations, but this will give the mediators an idea of the dispute at hand. Perhaps for the above quotations, co-authors Curtis Mitch and Edward Sri, in The Gospel of Matthew, p. 18, write:
"The Audience of Matthew - Christian scholarship has historically maintained that Matthew's Gospel was written for a Palestinian Christian audience.[3] The Jewish outlook of the book seemed to point in this direction, as did an ancient tradition that Matthew had originally written his Gospel in a Semitic language, either Hebrew or Aramaic. Since few Gentiles would have been interested in a work dominated by Jewish concerns, and few communities outside the land of Israel could have read it in a Semitic language, every indication was that Matthew's Gospel was intended for the early believers in Palestine." Davidbena ( talk) 18:18, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't we preface that with "Most modern textual scholarship have concluded that..."? As good as the Q source theory may be at solving things, it is still a theory and not Gospel truth. 23haveblue ( talk) 04:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
So there has been for some years now attempts to include as a significant minority view, the view that the canonical Gospel of Matthew (the subject of this article) was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic (not Greek, at any rate). I believe I have asked multiple times during the past year for a single, reliable source ( WP:RS) which affirms this view, but I have never seen one. While I have seen lots of reliable sources mentioned in relation to this view (Edwards, Casey, Dunn, Ehrman, etc.), none of these sources affirm the view, and instead they affirm the opposite. While there is a current interest in formal processes, I want to make an informal request: For anyone who wishes to make such an attempt as mentioned, could you supply a single, reliable source which affirms this view, one which you take to be the most clearly reliable of all such sources? -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 07:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Ditto! Please take a look at James Edwards 2009 who points out that Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link The first 124 pages is a detailed, scholarly and meticulous evaluation of the historical evidence. (See box below) The academic community, even those who disagree about his position on Luke and Q, were awed by these 124 pages!
The first 124 pages is a detailed, scholarly and meticulous evaluation of the historical evidence. |
---|
Evidence adduced by Ret.Prof ( talk · contribs) |
Earliest Paralipomena
The Fayum FragmentThe Fayum Fragment is perhaps the oldest Gospel fragment known to scholars. Harnack believes that the fragment belongs to the Gospel of the Hebrews a suggestion made before him already by Chiapelli. [211]
The Oxyrhynchus FragmentsOxyrhynchus is a city in Upper Egypt, located about 160 km south-southwest of Cairo. It is also an archaeological site, considered one of the most important ever discovered. For the past century, the area around Oxyrhynchus has been continually excavated, yielding an enormous collection of papyrus texts dating from the time of the Early Church. Under this heading we bring two gospel fragments; the first was published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1904; the second in 1908; the former was discovered in 1903; the latter in December 1905. Besides these gospel fragments we also bring the Oxyrhynchus Sayings or Logia. These were found in 1897 and 1903. Oxyrhynchus 840, is a single, small vellum parchment leaf with 45 lines of text. It probably dates from before 200, but no more is determinable from this evidence. The fragment begins with a warning to an evildoer who plans ahead, but who does not take the next life into account. There follows sections of a narrative unparalleled in any other known gospel tradition. Jesus is called Savior, which is rare in the New Testament, but not unparalleled. The absence of connections in this piece to special interests within the early Christian community, as well as the presence of both numerous semitisms and an informed view on Temple matters lead naturally to a Hebrew Gospel link. Further, it is likely that the original document was composed at least by the early 2nd century, since it shares none of the uncontrolled fantasies about Jesus or the disciples that 2nd and 3rd century apocryphal accounts typically exhibit. Oxyrhynchus 1224 consists of two small papyrus fragments. They contain 12 logia, each about a sentence. Two of the longer ones are parallel to Mark 2:17 and Luke 9:50, but the differences in phrasing show they are textually independent of the Gospels. A precise date for composition is unknown; 50 A.D. is possible and some scholars have argued that the preservation of the Hebrew Gospel in Oxyrhynchus in Middle Egypt evinces the breadth of its dissemination in early Christianity. Oxyrhynchus 654 and other fragments show a link between the Hebrew Gospel and the Gospel of Thomas. (The relationship of the Hebrew Gospel to Thomas becomes more clear when it is understood that that Gospel according to the Hebrews, under various names, such as the Gospel according to Peter, according to the Apostles, the Nazarenes, Ebionites, Egyptians, etc., with modifications certainly, but substantially the same work, was circulated very widely throughout the early Church.) [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224] [225]
The Paralipomena according to Justin MartyrArthur Lillie argues that Justin Martyr is quoting from the Hebrew Gospel. Lillie points out that although Justin mentions other books of the Bible by name, he never mentions the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Indeed, Justin states that he is citing the "Memoirs of the Apostles," the alternative title for Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. Dr. Gilles goes one step further, arguing that the wording shows that Justin cannot be quoting from the Canonical Gospels but rather a single work, probably Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. This position has been challenged by Nicholson and others. [230] [231] [232] [233]
The Sinful WomanThis story has long been the subject of scholarly debate. Although it is part of the Gospel of John, most literary critics agree that it was not originally found there. Papias states that it is from the Hebrew Gospel. [287] [288] [289] [290]
Early MSS transcriptsThe most ancient manuscripts of Matthew's Gospel end with the following citation: "Here ends the copy of the Gospel of the apostle Matthew. He wrote it in the land of Palestine, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in the Hebrew language, eight years after the bodily ascension of Jesus the Messiah into Heaven, in the first year of the reign of Claudius Caesar, Emperor of Rome." [295] [296] Also Theophylact and Euthymius do also assert this Gospel to have been written in the eighth year after Christ's Ascension. Later ParalipomenaThis category of Hebrew Paralipomena tends to be later and less reliable.
|
Simply put the position of Papias that, "Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and one of his followers, Matthew wrote an account about him in the local dialect." is supported by considerable evidence. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 23:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for all the sources. But are we with them? Do any of the reliable sources mentioned affirm that the canonical Gospel of Matthew (the subject of this article) was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic (not Greek, at any rate)? So far: Metzger 1987 doesn't. Petersen 1994 doesn't. In the Kranz and Verheyden 2011, Petersen says the opposite (chapter 24, "The Genesis of the Gospels", p. 410, note 96): "Where, in the serial development of the text we describe for the first and second centuries, does one "freeze" the process and say "this" is the "autograph"? Your author submits that is impossible, just as it is impossible to speak of the "autograph" of the Odyssey." Edwards 2006 says the opposite (p. 257): "Canonical Greek Matthew was almost certainly a Greek document from its inception." I've yet to look at the other sources. -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 04:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Atethnekos, you must read the whole section:
@PiCo Will do! See Chart for now. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 05:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Ret.Prof, I'm getting worried that you haven't really understood what's at issue with the mediation. It's about this article, the Gospel of Matthew. You need sources that are specific to the Gospel of Matthew. None of the sources you've mentioned so far do this.
In short, none of these sources are relevant, because none of them see a connection between Papias' Matthew and our Matthew. You need to find someone who does. You also need to be very precise about what you want from mediation - exactly what content do you want to see added to the article? Can I suggest that you begin with that - drafting a sentence or paragraph or section that you ask to have included? PiCo ( talk) 20:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
______
Leave it to David! Having the actual authors involved would be a blast! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:23, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
The great church historian of the fourth century, Eusebius, dismissed Papias by saying that he was “a man of very small intelligence” (Church History 3.39).
Intelligent or not, Papias is an important source for establishing the historical existence of Jesus. He had read some Gospels although there is no reason to think that he knew the ones that made it into the New Testament, as I will show in a moment. But more important, he had other access to the sayings of Jesus. He was personally acquainted with people who had known either the apostles themselves or their companions.— Bart Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? ch. 4
Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus’s life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus’s sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in scripture.
— loc.cit.
Jerome's letter addressed to Pope Damasus in 383 "I will now speak of the New Testament, which was undoubtedly composed in Greek, with the exception of the Apostle Matthew, who was the first in Judea to produce a Gospel of Christ in Hebrew script. We must confess that as we have it in our language, it is marked by discrepancies, and now that the stream is distributed into different channels we must go back to the Fountainhead." >>>>>>>>>>> Jerome, Preface to the Four Gospels, Addressed to Pope Damasus in 383 Roland H. Worth, Bible translations: a history through source documents, McFarland & Co., 1992. p 28 James R. Edwards, The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 286 Up to this time most people believed the Gospel of Matthew to be a Greek translation of Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Modern scholars have since vindicated Jerome and it is generally accepted that the Gospel of Matthew found in the Bible could not have been tranlated from the Hebrew Gospel. Henry Wace & Philip Schaff, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church: St. Jerome: Letters and select works, Christian literature Company, 1893. Vol 6, p 488)
No letter from the early Church has been as hotly contested by Biblical scholars! Enjoyng the debate! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 02:28, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
since most of Ehrman’s textual arguments are essentially the well-established and long-accepted consensus views of just about every worthwhile critical biblical scholar not teaching at a Christian university, seminary, or school with the word “Evangelical” in the title... conservative scholars attempt to refute the biblical scholarship that is taught in every major university save the aforementioned conservative Christian schools.
— Robert Cargill, i stand with bart ehrman: a review of the ‘ehrman project’
Now I am confused. The third paragraph of Ehrman 2010 p 101 says the opposite of what you say. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Pope Damasus (To Jerome) To his most beloved son Jerome: DAMASUS, Bishop, sends greetings in the Lord. The orthodox Greek and Latin versions [of the Gospel of Matthew] put forth not only differing but mutually conflicting explanations of the saying 'Hosanna to the son of David'. I wish you would write...stating the true meaning of what is actually written in the Hebrew text.
Jerome (Reply) “Matthew, who composed his Gospel in Hebrew script, wrote, 'Osanna Barrama', which means 'Hosanna in the Highest.’”
Remember, there is no text without context! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 01:07, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
If you mean to say that the canonical Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek, you are correct. However, if you mean to say that the Aramaic source material used to compose the Greek copy was not called "Matthew's Gospel," here we part ways and I strongly disagree!
I will exercise my right on Wikipedia to post Primary Sources, based on the leeway given in the WP guidelines for Primary Sources and will not infringe the prohibition by interpreting them one way or the other, nor violate thereby WP:OR. I shall not interject any personal bias, but only present the primary sources, since they are relevant to our discussion. Because of the vast array of opinions in contemporary literature regarding this subject - often divergent one from the other, it is always a good idea to bear in mind the primary sources upon whose axis our entire debate hinges. For example: Jerome wrote (Dialogus adversus Pelagianos, in: Migne, Patr. Lat. 23, Parisiis 1883, III, 2): "In the Gospel 'According to the Hebrews,' which was written in the Chaldaic and Syriac language but with Hebrew letters, and is used up to the present day by the Nazoraeans, I mean that according to the Apostles, or, as many maintain, according to Matthew, which Gospel is also available in the Library of Caesarea, the story runs: 'See, the mother of the Lord and his brother said to him: John the Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins, let us go to be baptized by him, etc."
Likewise did Jerome write elsewhere: "Matthew, also called Levi, an apostle after having been a publican, was the first to compose a gospel of Christ in Judea in Hebrew letters and words for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. But who afterwards translated it into Greek is not sufficiently certain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected." - Jerome (On Illustrious Men).
Eusebius also wrote in Papias' name: "Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each translated them as best he could." - Eusebius, (H.E. 3.39.16); while Irenaeus has testified: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel of the Hebrews in their own language, etc.," - Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.1.1
Epiphanius, who wrote about the Jews who call themselves Ebionites and Nazoraeans and who make use of the same Gospel, writes in Panarion (Medicine Chest), and which words are repeated in Anacephalaiosis 13.1: "The beginning of the Gospel among them reads: 'It happened in the days of Herod the king of Judea (at a time when Caiaphas was high priest) that a certain John came, baptizing the baptism of conversion in the river Jordan. Of him it is said that he was from the family of Aaron the priest, the son of Zacharias and Elisabeth. And all went out to him. […] It happened that John baptized and the Pharisees went out to him and were baptized and all Jerusalem. And John was dressed in a mantle of camel's hair and a leather belt was round his waist. And his food was, it is said, wild honey, of which the taste was that of manna, like cakes in olive oil.”
Eusebius in his Theophania - ed. MPG 24/ after 323), speaks somewhat about the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30: "Since the Gospel which has come to us in Hebrew letters directs its threat not against the one who has hidden [his talent] but against the one who lived in spendthrift – for he possessed three slaves, one who spent the fortune of his master with harlots and flute-girls, the second who multiplied his trade and the third who hid his talent; next the first was accepted, the second rebuked only, the third, however, was thrown into prison. I wonder whether the threat in Matthew which, according to the letter was spoken against the one who did nothing, applies not to him but to the first one who was eating and drinking with those who were drunken, by way of resumption."
Jerome, speaking about Matthew 27:51, wrote in his Commentarius in Epistulam 120:8 the following testimony: "But in the Gospel which is written in Hebrew letters we read that not the curtain of the temple but the upper-threshold (Latin: superliminare temple) of the temple, being of marvelous size, fell down." also
Jerome (Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ed. D. Hurst, ch. 27, 51) also writes: "In the gospel which we have already often mentioned, we read that the upper-threshold of the temple, of an enormous size, was broken and slit."
Jerome, in Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ed. D. Hurst, ch. 23, 35, speaks about Matthew 23:34-35 and says: "In the gospel which the Nazoraeans use, we find that there is written, 'son of Ioiada' (Yehoiada) in place of the 'son of Barachia.' " (cf. II Chron. 24: 20-21)
Jerome, in Commentariorum in Mattheum Libri IV, ch.12, vs.13, ed. D.Hurst), writes: "…In the Gospel which the Nazoraeans and the Ebionites use which we translated recently from Hebrew to Greek and which is called the authentic text of Matthew by a good many…"
There are actually many, many more citations, but this will give the mediators an idea of the dispute at hand. Perhaps for the above quotations, co-authors Curtis Mitch and Edward Sri, in The Gospel of Matthew, p. 18, write:
"The Audience of Matthew - Christian scholarship has historically maintained that Matthew's Gospel was written for a Palestinian Christian audience.[3] The Jewish outlook of the book seemed to point in this direction, as did an ancient tradition that Matthew had originally written his Gospel in a Semitic language, either Hebrew or Aramaic. Since few Gentiles would have been interested in a work dominated by Jewish concerns, and few communities outside the land of Israel could have read it in a Semitic language, every indication was that Matthew's Gospel was intended for the early believers in Palestine." Davidbena ( talk) 18:18, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't we preface that with "Most modern textual scholarship have concluded that..."? As good as the Q source theory may be at solving things, it is still a theory and not Gospel truth. 23haveblue ( talk) 04:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)