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The mystical significance of the place continued into the Middle Ages, when it was celebrated by an annual Tor Fair. Would anyone be upset if I removed this line, here since 2002? Medieval fairs did not celebrate mystical significance. They were carefully controlled by ordinances. The fair being thought of here is the Glastonbury Fair, a rockfest Woodstockish happening in a nearby village, only since 1971. Has anyone a reference to a medieval Glastonbury fair? Wetman 00:02, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Added medieval strip farming as the most likely explanation for terracing on the Tor, unromantic as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pcpcpc ( talk • contribs) in 2005
The terrace system on the Tor would bear analysis in terms of a medieval Purgatory or Calvary Mount. Its symbolic seven-tiered form would have been worthwhile labour for the monks of the Monastery of St Michael. See Mann, N.R. 2001 and 2004. 29 July 2006
Is there any references that could substantiate a theory that the 7 Tor terraces created an illusion of increased distance for an observer outside the swampy area who is unfamiliar with the territory, thereby making the obstacle swamps seem much greater etc? Tekbasse ( talk) 19:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
since when was arthur a celtic hero. he was brythonic which is a much more accurate description by making him british celt rather than scottish or irish.
I checked the height of Glastonbury Tor with the report of the National Trust [2] which gave the height of the Tor only in metres. I did not find any figures for the prominence of the Tor above the countryside but reversed the order of the measures. This time I did not use the convert template because it gave a reading that appeared to be accurate only to the nearest 10 feet. Michael Glass ( talk) 03:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
This article was AfD'd in September and closed with a result of a merge. The merge was never done, so I went ahead and redirected the article here. I didn't reintroduce any of the material because all of the points appear too trivial for an encyclopedic understanding of this subject. If anyone wants to develop a cited and relevant "in popular culture" section you might want to view the history of the pop culture article as a place to start. Them From Space 19:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I see this section is no more. However, with a representation seemingly of the Tor [+ Glastonbury Thorn] featuring heavily in the 2012 Olympcs Opening Ceremony does it deserve to come back? 2.31.101.204 ( talk) 08:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Why is the main picture one of the tor during maintenance? surely someone has a better photo than that?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.197.224 ( talk) 00:34, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
How come this article is within wikipedia project islands? How to take it off the list?
John of Cromer in China ( talk) mytime= Mon 16:44, wikitime= 08:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
It's there because it used to be an island. Dougweller ( talk) 10:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Well it's not one now, although it sits on one - Great Britain. I don't see Gondwanaland on your list. Perhaps there should be a new category - Places_that_used_to_be_something_other_than_what_they_are_now
John of Cromer in China ( talk) mytime= Mon 22:42, wikitime= 14:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Rod, I had a go on the first section and have tried to fix some of the wording based on what you have put (which may need to be checked for accuracy). I have removed a tiny amount of POV and an overlink. Paragraphs should end in a citation; it pains me to add the ugly tags, but it looks like you have the sources, so these shouldn't last all that long. I have left you some hidden comments and will watchlist the page, so no need to add those blasted talk page reminders on my talk. On the whole, it looks ok, and I'm happy to work one section at a time. I would like to think Eric will be following on from me and fixing anything that I get wrong. Happy editing! -- Cassianto Talk 22:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I have completed part two. We need to determine who said what and when. All the best! -- Cassianto Talk 21:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
(Not that I'd claim to be an expert - I've just read a lot about it & visited a few times) Re Ramparts- I don't quite understand the hidden comment - It has been suggested that the terraces were created as a form of Rampart (which is normally done as bank & ditch), but on the Tor the bank and ditch doesn't exist (and probably never did) therefore other sources say this could not be the explanation. Does that make sense? Rampart is normally linked to Defensive wall but in this occurrence there is no wall so I'm not sure what to link to.— Rod talk 12:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments on the Christian settlement - sorry it is confusing. Having checked the Rahtz and Mann books both churches (10/11th Century & 14th century) were dedicated to St Michael. There is no mention of the glass and tiles in the 14th C church coming from the earlier church - just the foundations. I am still looking for a source for the claim about seismic activity being amplified. If I can't find one I will remove that claim.—
Rod
talk 17:12, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Why are we using Mann so much? We've got Mann, John Michel and Geoffrey Russell suggesting that maybe there was a neolithic labyrinth pattern on the Tor. Of course we have to ignore the link to Caerdroia which says "In medieval times a Caerdroia was a turf labyrinth" and Labyrinth#Medieval labyrinths and turf mazes to assume neolithic, and the fact that " given the amount of occupation since then, there may have been substantial modifications by farmers and/or monks and conclusive excavations have not been carried out" is linked to Hutton who does discuss the possibility of a prehistoric maze but then says "A third interpretation of the terraces is that they do indeed represent a spiral walkway, but of medieval date and constructed for pilgrims ascending to the church on the summit; such ritual pathways, linked to the Stations of the Cross, are used to this day in Roman Catholic countries. Fairly similar concentric terraces may be detected around the famous Anglo-Saxon monastery at Whitby in Yorkshire." Rather selective I'd say. Dougweller ( talk) 19:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
On page 79 Hutton discusses the possibility of a prehistoric maze. While pointing out that Rahtz found nothing Roman or prehistoric at the top of the Tor, and that there are no securely dated pre-Roman mazes or Labyrinths in northern Europe, he also notes that construction of the monastery meant digging out "a large section of the summit of the Tor", that there may in fact be prehistoric mazes in northern Europe, and that Neolithic spirals are found in the British Isles. He also notes that medieval land hunger in the area might have been great enough to justify terracing.
He gives a third interpretation - "a spiral walkway, but of medieval date and constructed for pilgrims ascending to the church on the summit; such ritual pathways, linked to the Stations of the Cross, are used to this day in Roman Catholic countries. Fairly similar concentric terraces may be detected around the famous Anglo-Saxon mon- astery at Whitby in Yorkshire. The only secure way to date the feature at Glastonbury Tor would be an extensive excavation of the hillside, and such a procedure would be very expensive indeed. The one certain conclusion to be drawn from the evidence is that the terraces were made by humans; differential erosion of the hill by natural forces could not have produced them.60 Even more than Ponter's Ball, the Tor 'maze' remains a puzzle." [3] Dougweller ( talk) 14:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I know little about geology, but maybe someone knowledgeable in geology can check this one: "Blue Lias" is explained in parentheses as "Jurassic sandstone", however both the Blue Lias article and the used reference #13 seem to contradict that and describe Blue Lias as a limestone (and clay) formation. On first glance it seems only the parenthetical info is wrong and should simply read "Jurassic limestone". Also, ref #13 is a huge PDF with 323 pages and could use some more specific page numbers for the sourced information. GermanJoe ( talk) 22:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: J Milburn ( talk · contribs) 18:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
A great topic; definitely worthy of GA status. Happy to offer some thoughts. J Milburn ( talk) 18:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm left feeling that there should be more about the tower itself, as this seems to be the article about the structure as well as about the hill. I also wonder whether the history section should be moved to before the geography section; it's of more historical interest than geographic interest, and knowing the history will help in understanding the geography. I still need to take a proper look at the sources and images, but this will hopefully give some pointers on what needs to be worked on. J Milburn ( talk) 18:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok, just taking a look at the references;
I'm not saying those sources are definitely unreliable, but it'd be good to check them/replace them if possible. I've no doubt that there are plenty of very good sources out there, so trying to avoid poor ones shouldn't be too hard. If a particular theory can't be found in any good sources, then that does say a lot about the theory... J Milburn ( talk) 16:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Just wanted to apologise if I'm being so slow here- I want to approach the article in the right mindset! J Milburn ( talk) 21:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The labyrinth theory is still supported by what look to be pretty dire sources; the Mitchell book doesn't exactly look scholarly (to put it one way) and Fairy Room just seems to be a fantasy blog. "The Tor came to be represented as an entrance to Annwn or to Avalon, the land of the fairies.[66][67]" and "Another speculation is that the Tor was reshaped into a spiral maze for use in religious ritual, incorporating the myth that the Tor was the location of the underworld king's spiral castle.[66]" are also reliant on questionable sources. Folklore is certainly potentially a scholarly subject, but folklore that no decent publisher has taken account of shouldn't be in the article! I'll have a look around and see what I can find... J Milburn ( talk) 20:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
There have been definite improvements, but the sourcing still seems a little worse than it could be, considering the subject matter. So much has been written about the tor by all kinds of academics; for GA status, I really think we need to base the article on better sources.
The rest look OK, I think; moving away from newspapers and towards peer-reviewed journals would be the next step, but, for GA purposes, this should be enough. J Milburn ( talk) 18:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've come across a fairly recent scholarly article which lists some of the myths around the Tor. Hopefully, these quotes should be able to cover some of the folklore you've been talking about. J Milburn ( talk) 20:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
p. 178 "But at the foot of the Tor, the chalybeate Chalice Well is sacred to some for its association with the Grail (its red waters rep- resenting the blood of Christ shed for humanity) while for others it is clearly the menstrual flow of the Goddess. Opposite Chalice Well is the calcite staining White Spring, which for a period in the 1990s became "revived" as an ancient Pagan rag well. Some see the proximity of the red and white waters as indicative of the bal- ance of male and female energies (red representing blood, white semen) associated with the Michael and Mary leylines which are said to intertwine at the Tor; for others, as red and white are the colours of the Fairy King Gwynn Ap Nudd, the waters indicate the site of the entrance to his kingdom beneath the Tor."
p. 180. "The Tor is significant to Catholics as the site of the hanging of Abbot Whiting and two monks at the brutal dissolution of Glaston- bury Abbey, while His Holiness Gyalwa Jampa claims that Glastonbury Tor is one of the points where God's will enters the earth (two other such points being the Great Pyramid and the Washington Monument). The Tor is variously regarded as the spiral castle of Celtic legend; a Goddess figure; the Grail Castle; a crystal filled communication beacon for extra-terrestrials; and part of the phoenix figure representing Aquarius on the Glastonbury Zodiac. Some see the Tor as a prehistoric, three-dimensional ceremonial maze, and in typical Glastonbury fashion great claims are made for it"
p. 185. "Ideas of interconnectedness are also embedded in concepts of earth healing, and the ability - indeed duty - some perceive of act- ing locally at significant places like Glastonbury in order to have a global, spiritual impact. His Holiness Gyalwa Jampa, for example, claims that "if holy people go back to holy sites, the site re-awak- ens and the whole earth can be healed" (interview 2 September 2003), and that is one reason he feels he has to be active in Glastonbury. On 16 August 1987 there was the great global project of the Harm- onic Convergence, when hundreds gathered on Glastonbury Tor as people attempted to "activate" sacred sites around the world.7"
pp. 186-7. "No one version of Glastonbury has a complete monopoly, and although the current simultaneity of belief and practice might seem very much a product of contemporary spirituality, I would suggest that it finds antecedents in vernacular religion. For example, there is a story that I have been told on a number of occasions, both in relation to fairy belief and to the Tor, concerning either St. Collen (a 7th century Welsh saint) or more vaguely an Abbot of Glas- tonbury. Baldly told, this Christian was on the Tor when he en- countered two small persons who requested that he returned at midnight, as their lord was keen to meet him. When he met them at the summit of the Tor at the appointed hour, he was suddenly transported into a fabulous palace, magnificently decorated, with fine food piled on golden platters, and full of small people dressed in red and white (fairies). There he met King Gwynn Ap Nudd, who invited him to partake of the feast. Knowing that to eat fairy food would imprison him in fairyland, the Christian declined the offer, drew out a bottle of holy water, scattered it all around him, and suddenly found himself back on top of the Tor. While this tra- ditional tale appears to demonstrate the superiority of Christian power, it underlines a rather important point - that although Christian- ity was in the ascendant, the fairies were still there, literally below the surface."
Same author, different journal: J Milburn ( talk) 20:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
p. 280 "A distinctive feature of the Catholic Pilgrimage is that it starts with hymn singing in the Tor Field, followed by a procession from the Tor through the streets of Glastonbury and into the Abbey ruins with the statue of Our Lady of Glastonbury. The Tor is the starting point of the Catholic pilgrimage, in memory of Abbot Whiting and the two other monks who were hanged there at the time of the Dissolution; as one Catholic woman said, "The Tor has particular significance for us." Thus, while there are visually similar aspects between the Anglican and Catholic pilgrimage processions (the carrying of the statue of Our Lady of Glastonbury, the display of banners, and an obvious hierarchy of male clerics), significantly more of the town-from the ruined chapel of St Michael (destroyed by an earthquake) on the Tor to the Abbey ruins-is encompassed by the Catholic pilgrimage than the Anglican one. Both physically and metaphysically, the Catholic pilgrimage might be said to cover more ground"
p. 281. "In the very landscape of Glastonbury some discern the representation of a Goddess figure. They see the siting of the Lady Chapel of Glastonbury Abbey on the area they consider to represent the Goddess's vagina as a deliberate act of usurpation and an attempt to suppress the power of the Goddess. The Tor is seen as one breast of this figure, and the thirteenth-century earthquake that destroyed St Michael's chapel is interpreted as the Goddess simply shaking off this accretion. Some say the Tor itself is a figure of the Goddess, with Chalice Hill as her belly, and the red waters of Chalice Well her menstrual flow. Furthermore, some discern in the contours of the Tor an ancient three-dimensional ceremonial maze. As the 2004 Goddess Conference publicity material..."
p. 282 (continuing from above) "Walking into and out of the Labyrinth in the correct way is an activity offered in connection with the Goddess Conference. I have been told that at the first Goddess in Glastonbury Conference, a group of Goddess-loving women threaded their way up the maze, and within a year some of them were pregnant with a female child. Thus it is now a "tradition" that if a woman wants a female child, she should walk the Tor labyrinth in the appropriate way!"
p. 282 "However, the most obvious tradition connected with the Glastonbury Goddess Conference is undoubtedly the Goddess in the Cart Procession. This procession through the streets of Glastonbury and up the Tor originally included a large effigy of the Goddess (constructed at the conference) pulled in a cart. Each year in rotation a model of the goddess in one of her three aspectsmaiden, mother or crone-was made and then displayed in the most public aspect of the event, the procession on the last day of the conference."
Comment As a quick courtesy, just wanted to you know that this GA nominee is being watched by a rather hostile on-again/off-again editor who happens to write a smug anti-Wikipedia blog. A recent blog post criticised this article, particularly the scientific/geological material in the article. [5]. -- ColonelHenry ( talk) 05:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I'm now convinced that the sourcing is OK for GA purposes. I'm going to have another read through the article, fixing bits as I go, and I'll note anything that needs fixing.
Once these things have been looked into, I'll go ahead and promote! J Milburn ( talk) 20:44, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Alright- this has been a surprisingly long review, but I'm going to go ahead and promote now. While I do feel that the article remains a way away from FAC-ready, I do think it makes a solid good article. In terms of future improvement-
Anyway, they're just some bits to think about if you're aiming at FAC. For now, this makes a decent GA. Great work! J Milburn ( talk) 19:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Surprised to see no mention of this chap and his thorny staff: [6], [7], [8], [9], etc etc Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
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Glastonbury Tor has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
Glastonbury Tor is part of the National Trust properties in Somerset series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Good article |
Glastonbury Tor in popular culture was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 September 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Glastonbury Tor. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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The mystical significance of the place continued into the Middle Ages, when it was celebrated by an annual Tor Fair. Would anyone be upset if I removed this line, here since 2002? Medieval fairs did not celebrate mystical significance. They were carefully controlled by ordinances. The fair being thought of here is the Glastonbury Fair, a rockfest Woodstockish happening in a nearby village, only since 1971. Has anyone a reference to a medieval Glastonbury fair? Wetman 00:02, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Added medieval strip farming as the most likely explanation for terracing on the Tor, unromantic as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pcpcpc ( talk • contribs) in 2005
The terrace system on the Tor would bear analysis in terms of a medieval Purgatory or Calvary Mount. Its symbolic seven-tiered form would have been worthwhile labour for the monks of the Monastery of St Michael. See Mann, N.R. 2001 and 2004. 29 July 2006
Is there any references that could substantiate a theory that the 7 Tor terraces created an illusion of increased distance for an observer outside the swampy area who is unfamiliar with the territory, thereby making the obstacle swamps seem much greater etc? Tekbasse ( talk) 19:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
since when was arthur a celtic hero. he was brythonic which is a much more accurate description by making him british celt rather than scottish or irish.
I checked the height of Glastonbury Tor with the report of the National Trust [2] which gave the height of the Tor only in metres. I did not find any figures for the prominence of the Tor above the countryside but reversed the order of the measures. This time I did not use the convert template because it gave a reading that appeared to be accurate only to the nearest 10 feet. Michael Glass ( talk) 03:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
This article was AfD'd in September and closed with a result of a merge. The merge was never done, so I went ahead and redirected the article here. I didn't reintroduce any of the material because all of the points appear too trivial for an encyclopedic understanding of this subject. If anyone wants to develop a cited and relevant "in popular culture" section you might want to view the history of the pop culture article as a place to start. Them From Space 19:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I see this section is no more. However, with a representation seemingly of the Tor [+ Glastonbury Thorn] featuring heavily in the 2012 Olympcs Opening Ceremony does it deserve to come back? 2.31.101.204 ( talk) 08:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Why is the main picture one of the tor during maintenance? surely someone has a better photo than that?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.197.224 ( talk) 00:34, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
How come this article is within wikipedia project islands? How to take it off the list?
John of Cromer in China ( talk) mytime= Mon 16:44, wikitime= 08:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
It's there because it used to be an island. Dougweller ( talk) 10:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Well it's not one now, although it sits on one - Great Britain. I don't see Gondwanaland on your list. Perhaps there should be a new category - Places_that_used_to_be_something_other_than_what_they_are_now
John of Cromer in China ( talk) mytime= Mon 22:42, wikitime= 14:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Rod, I had a go on the first section and have tried to fix some of the wording based on what you have put (which may need to be checked for accuracy). I have removed a tiny amount of POV and an overlink. Paragraphs should end in a citation; it pains me to add the ugly tags, but it looks like you have the sources, so these shouldn't last all that long. I have left you some hidden comments and will watchlist the page, so no need to add those blasted talk page reminders on my talk. On the whole, it looks ok, and I'm happy to work one section at a time. I would like to think Eric will be following on from me and fixing anything that I get wrong. Happy editing! -- Cassianto Talk 22:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I have completed part two. We need to determine who said what and when. All the best! -- Cassianto Talk 21:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
(Not that I'd claim to be an expert - I've just read a lot about it & visited a few times) Re Ramparts- I don't quite understand the hidden comment - It has been suggested that the terraces were created as a form of Rampart (which is normally done as bank & ditch), but on the Tor the bank and ditch doesn't exist (and probably never did) therefore other sources say this could not be the explanation. Does that make sense? Rampart is normally linked to Defensive wall but in this occurrence there is no wall so I'm not sure what to link to.— Rod talk 12:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments on the Christian settlement - sorry it is confusing. Having checked the Rahtz and Mann books both churches (10/11th Century & 14th century) were dedicated to St Michael. There is no mention of the glass and tiles in the 14th C church coming from the earlier church - just the foundations. I am still looking for a source for the claim about seismic activity being amplified. If I can't find one I will remove that claim.—
Rod
talk 17:12, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Why are we using Mann so much? We've got Mann, John Michel and Geoffrey Russell suggesting that maybe there was a neolithic labyrinth pattern on the Tor. Of course we have to ignore the link to Caerdroia which says "In medieval times a Caerdroia was a turf labyrinth" and Labyrinth#Medieval labyrinths and turf mazes to assume neolithic, and the fact that " given the amount of occupation since then, there may have been substantial modifications by farmers and/or monks and conclusive excavations have not been carried out" is linked to Hutton who does discuss the possibility of a prehistoric maze but then says "A third interpretation of the terraces is that they do indeed represent a spiral walkway, but of medieval date and constructed for pilgrims ascending to the church on the summit; such ritual pathways, linked to the Stations of the Cross, are used to this day in Roman Catholic countries. Fairly similar concentric terraces may be detected around the famous Anglo-Saxon monastery at Whitby in Yorkshire." Rather selective I'd say. Dougweller ( talk) 19:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
On page 79 Hutton discusses the possibility of a prehistoric maze. While pointing out that Rahtz found nothing Roman or prehistoric at the top of the Tor, and that there are no securely dated pre-Roman mazes or Labyrinths in northern Europe, he also notes that construction of the monastery meant digging out "a large section of the summit of the Tor", that there may in fact be prehistoric mazes in northern Europe, and that Neolithic spirals are found in the British Isles. He also notes that medieval land hunger in the area might have been great enough to justify terracing.
He gives a third interpretation - "a spiral walkway, but of medieval date and constructed for pilgrims ascending to the church on the summit; such ritual pathways, linked to the Stations of the Cross, are used to this day in Roman Catholic countries. Fairly similar concentric terraces may be detected around the famous Anglo-Saxon mon- astery at Whitby in Yorkshire. The only secure way to date the feature at Glastonbury Tor would be an extensive excavation of the hillside, and such a procedure would be very expensive indeed. The one certain conclusion to be drawn from the evidence is that the terraces were made by humans; differential erosion of the hill by natural forces could not have produced them.60 Even more than Ponter's Ball, the Tor 'maze' remains a puzzle." [3] Dougweller ( talk) 14:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I know little about geology, but maybe someone knowledgeable in geology can check this one: "Blue Lias" is explained in parentheses as "Jurassic sandstone", however both the Blue Lias article and the used reference #13 seem to contradict that and describe Blue Lias as a limestone (and clay) formation. On first glance it seems only the parenthetical info is wrong and should simply read "Jurassic limestone". Also, ref #13 is a huge PDF with 323 pages and could use some more specific page numbers for the sourced information. GermanJoe ( talk) 22:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: J Milburn ( talk · contribs) 18:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
A great topic; definitely worthy of GA status. Happy to offer some thoughts. J Milburn ( talk) 18:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm left feeling that there should be more about the tower itself, as this seems to be the article about the structure as well as about the hill. I also wonder whether the history section should be moved to before the geography section; it's of more historical interest than geographic interest, and knowing the history will help in understanding the geography. I still need to take a proper look at the sources and images, but this will hopefully give some pointers on what needs to be worked on. J Milburn ( talk) 18:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok, just taking a look at the references;
I'm not saying those sources are definitely unreliable, but it'd be good to check them/replace them if possible. I've no doubt that there are plenty of very good sources out there, so trying to avoid poor ones shouldn't be too hard. If a particular theory can't be found in any good sources, then that does say a lot about the theory... J Milburn ( talk) 16:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Just wanted to apologise if I'm being so slow here- I want to approach the article in the right mindset! J Milburn ( talk) 21:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The labyrinth theory is still supported by what look to be pretty dire sources; the Mitchell book doesn't exactly look scholarly (to put it one way) and Fairy Room just seems to be a fantasy blog. "The Tor came to be represented as an entrance to Annwn or to Avalon, the land of the fairies.[66][67]" and "Another speculation is that the Tor was reshaped into a spiral maze for use in religious ritual, incorporating the myth that the Tor was the location of the underworld king's spiral castle.[66]" are also reliant on questionable sources. Folklore is certainly potentially a scholarly subject, but folklore that no decent publisher has taken account of shouldn't be in the article! I'll have a look around and see what I can find... J Milburn ( talk) 20:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
There have been definite improvements, but the sourcing still seems a little worse than it could be, considering the subject matter. So much has been written about the tor by all kinds of academics; for GA status, I really think we need to base the article on better sources.
The rest look OK, I think; moving away from newspapers and towards peer-reviewed journals would be the next step, but, for GA purposes, this should be enough. J Milburn ( talk) 18:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've come across a fairly recent scholarly article which lists some of the myths around the Tor. Hopefully, these quotes should be able to cover some of the folklore you've been talking about. J Milburn ( talk) 20:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
p. 178 "But at the foot of the Tor, the chalybeate Chalice Well is sacred to some for its association with the Grail (its red waters rep- resenting the blood of Christ shed for humanity) while for others it is clearly the menstrual flow of the Goddess. Opposite Chalice Well is the calcite staining White Spring, which for a period in the 1990s became "revived" as an ancient Pagan rag well. Some see the proximity of the red and white waters as indicative of the bal- ance of male and female energies (red representing blood, white semen) associated with the Michael and Mary leylines which are said to intertwine at the Tor; for others, as red and white are the colours of the Fairy King Gwynn Ap Nudd, the waters indicate the site of the entrance to his kingdom beneath the Tor."
p. 180. "The Tor is significant to Catholics as the site of the hanging of Abbot Whiting and two monks at the brutal dissolution of Glaston- bury Abbey, while His Holiness Gyalwa Jampa claims that Glastonbury Tor is one of the points where God's will enters the earth (two other such points being the Great Pyramid and the Washington Monument). The Tor is variously regarded as the spiral castle of Celtic legend; a Goddess figure; the Grail Castle; a crystal filled communication beacon for extra-terrestrials; and part of the phoenix figure representing Aquarius on the Glastonbury Zodiac. Some see the Tor as a prehistoric, three-dimensional ceremonial maze, and in typical Glastonbury fashion great claims are made for it"
p. 185. "Ideas of interconnectedness are also embedded in concepts of earth healing, and the ability - indeed duty - some perceive of act- ing locally at significant places like Glastonbury in order to have a global, spiritual impact. His Holiness Gyalwa Jampa, for example, claims that "if holy people go back to holy sites, the site re-awak- ens and the whole earth can be healed" (interview 2 September 2003), and that is one reason he feels he has to be active in Glastonbury. On 16 August 1987 there was the great global project of the Harm- onic Convergence, when hundreds gathered on Glastonbury Tor as people attempted to "activate" sacred sites around the world.7"
pp. 186-7. "No one version of Glastonbury has a complete monopoly, and although the current simultaneity of belief and practice might seem very much a product of contemporary spirituality, I would suggest that it finds antecedents in vernacular religion. For example, there is a story that I have been told on a number of occasions, both in relation to fairy belief and to the Tor, concerning either St. Collen (a 7th century Welsh saint) or more vaguely an Abbot of Glas- tonbury. Baldly told, this Christian was on the Tor when he en- countered two small persons who requested that he returned at midnight, as their lord was keen to meet him. When he met them at the summit of the Tor at the appointed hour, he was suddenly transported into a fabulous palace, magnificently decorated, with fine food piled on golden platters, and full of small people dressed in red and white (fairies). There he met King Gwynn Ap Nudd, who invited him to partake of the feast. Knowing that to eat fairy food would imprison him in fairyland, the Christian declined the offer, drew out a bottle of holy water, scattered it all around him, and suddenly found himself back on top of the Tor. While this tra- ditional tale appears to demonstrate the superiority of Christian power, it underlines a rather important point - that although Christian- ity was in the ascendant, the fairies were still there, literally below the surface."
Same author, different journal: J Milburn ( talk) 20:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
p. 280 "A distinctive feature of the Catholic Pilgrimage is that it starts with hymn singing in the Tor Field, followed by a procession from the Tor through the streets of Glastonbury and into the Abbey ruins with the statue of Our Lady of Glastonbury. The Tor is the starting point of the Catholic pilgrimage, in memory of Abbot Whiting and the two other monks who were hanged there at the time of the Dissolution; as one Catholic woman said, "The Tor has particular significance for us." Thus, while there are visually similar aspects between the Anglican and Catholic pilgrimage processions (the carrying of the statue of Our Lady of Glastonbury, the display of banners, and an obvious hierarchy of male clerics), significantly more of the town-from the ruined chapel of St Michael (destroyed by an earthquake) on the Tor to the Abbey ruins-is encompassed by the Catholic pilgrimage than the Anglican one. Both physically and metaphysically, the Catholic pilgrimage might be said to cover more ground"
p. 281. "In the very landscape of Glastonbury some discern the representation of a Goddess figure. They see the siting of the Lady Chapel of Glastonbury Abbey on the area they consider to represent the Goddess's vagina as a deliberate act of usurpation and an attempt to suppress the power of the Goddess. The Tor is seen as one breast of this figure, and the thirteenth-century earthquake that destroyed St Michael's chapel is interpreted as the Goddess simply shaking off this accretion. Some say the Tor itself is a figure of the Goddess, with Chalice Hill as her belly, and the red waters of Chalice Well her menstrual flow. Furthermore, some discern in the contours of the Tor an ancient three-dimensional ceremonial maze. As the 2004 Goddess Conference publicity material..."
p. 282 (continuing from above) "Walking into and out of the Labyrinth in the correct way is an activity offered in connection with the Goddess Conference. I have been told that at the first Goddess in Glastonbury Conference, a group of Goddess-loving women threaded their way up the maze, and within a year some of them were pregnant with a female child. Thus it is now a "tradition" that if a woman wants a female child, she should walk the Tor labyrinth in the appropriate way!"
p. 282 "However, the most obvious tradition connected with the Glastonbury Goddess Conference is undoubtedly the Goddess in the Cart Procession. This procession through the streets of Glastonbury and up the Tor originally included a large effigy of the Goddess (constructed at the conference) pulled in a cart. Each year in rotation a model of the goddess in one of her three aspectsmaiden, mother or crone-was made and then displayed in the most public aspect of the event, the procession on the last day of the conference."
Comment As a quick courtesy, just wanted to you know that this GA nominee is being watched by a rather hostile on-again/off-again editor who happens to write a smug anti-Wikipedia blog. A recent blog post criticised this article, particularly the scientific/geological material in the article. [5]. -- ColonelHenry ( talk) 05:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I'm now convinced that the sourcing is OK for GA purposes. I'm going to have another read through the article, fixing bits as I go, and I'll note anything that needs fixing.
Once these things have been looked into, I'll go ahead and promote! J Milburn ( talk) 20:44, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Alright- this has been a surprisingly long review, but I'm going to go ahead and promote now. While I do feel that the article remains a way away from FAC-ready, I do think it makes a solid good article. In terms of future improvement-
Anyway, they're just some bits to think about if you're aiming at FAC. For now, this makes a decent GA. Great work! J Milburn ( talk) 19:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Surprised to see no mention of this chap and his thorny staff: [6], [7], [8], [9], etc etc Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
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